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Phoenix Reduces Their Models

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JKSan

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2021, 11:25:43 am »
I, for one, level the rig and then extend the slide.  That was suggested to me somewhere.  Mechanically speaking, it makes sense to have a level rig which would minimize the possibility of a twist due to uneven terrain.

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mikeh

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2021, 12:11:58 pm »
I, for one, level the rig and then extend the slide.  That was suggested to me somewhere.  Mechanically speaking, it makes sense to have a level rig which would minimize the possibility of a twist due to uneven terrain.

Both my Lippert Operating Manual for my slide-out, and my HWH Operating Manual for my automatic levelers specify that the coach must be braked and leveled before the slide is extended.  In addition, they state that the slide must be retracted first, before the  coach comes off of the leveling system.

I think with the Lippert slide mechanism, it may be even more important to follow that requirement to avoid any twist or flex that might cause uneven stress on the slide--just as JKSan says.  When I am parked just overnight at a Cracker Barrel or Wal-Mart, and the surface is level, I have sometimes not bothered to deploy my levelers.  Given my recent experience with my slide, I will now absolutely not extend it without my levelers being down.

Mike

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rvrunner

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2021, 04:02:41 pm »
Mike, I think you are correct about installing the slide, it has to be a perfect fit to work properly. My friends View has a 12 ft slide with only 3 rollers and 2 water tanks in the slide, you can see that the rollers are rolling evenly, his View is 6 years old with 70,000 miles, he's had no problems but, Winnebago has changed slides from the swintec to power gear. both are made by Lippert, WBO claims less problems with power gear.
 My question is, is it worth getting my slide fixed? Won't the slide room have to be rebuilt in order for it to work correctly and then there would be no guarantees that it would work correctly for very long.

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mikeh

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2021, 06:34:35 pm »
rvrunner----

I am a long way from any kind of expert on slides, but I do have some thoughts.  I don't know how many Lippert Swintec unit there are out there---but there are a bunch.  Just driving through the small RV park where I'm currently parked in upper Michigan this morning I counted 7 out of 21 RVs that had slides out were Swintec--mostly on trailers and Class C units.  That's a third of the RVs in this park--that's a pretty high percentage using this design, and obviously, not all of them are failing.  There's a world of Swintec slides out there, and most of them continue to work.

You mentioned in an earlier post that you have had three slide failures in three years---Wow!  I don't blame you for being upset and concerned.  You didn't mention what the failures were, whether they were all the same, who repaired your unit, or what had to be done in repairs.  If Phoenix handled both previous repairs, I believe I would have a heart to heart talk with them before they did the third one, and find out what they could do or what I could do to prevent there from being a fourth instance.  The 110,000 miles that you mention on your PC indicates a lot of usage, and I would ask them if that is contributing to the recurring problem.

The repair on my slide consisted of Phoenix pulling the slide, replacing completely both side drive units, and "reinforcing the rear wall adjacent to the slide".  Essentially, I've got a new slide installation--it wasn't cheap, but right now it's working great.  I told them that I trusted them to fix it right, and they said they did; I will take care to use it properly, but I expect to see the proof of that in future performance.

You have already relayed the problems that not having a working slide-room create for you, so if you don't want to replace your rig at this point, fixing the slide seems like the obvious thing to do.  But again, if you're going that way, I would have a careful talk with Phoenix that I wanted them to do whatever was necessary to try to ensure no more slide issues as long as you use it properly.  I don't think that would mean that they would have  to "rebuild" your slide room--but they may need to install some reinforcement in addition to new slide mechanisms, depending on what your exact current problem is.  In any case, Phoenix should have the best understanding of the coach and the best capability to fix it correctly.

All the best,     Mike

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rvrunner

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2021, 08:44:04 pm »
My last 2 slide repairs were at the factory, both were complete rebuilds, new motors, rails, gears, the works. The last rebuild was done in Aug. I used the slide 8 times and now it's popping and bucking and the gears are gouging the rail. The factory is well aware of my problem. I asked how long this rebuild will last and was told 1 or 2 yrs.They've had to replace 50 swintec slides since they've been installing them, I estimate that's a high failure rate. After talking to the service manager the problem is passed on to the shop. I've pointed out that one of the rollers carries a lot more weight than the others, they can't seem to figure it out, they say it's kind of a pressure point but don't know why. I can have another heart to heart talk with the service manager but the bottom line is the guys in the shop will have to figure it out.
 I don't know how much farther I want to chase this problem. I've already been to Elkhart 7 times and if I lived closer I probably would've been there twice that. I've had other problems and cancelling trips and cutting trips short has been common. I'll think about a solution this winter. Keep the advice and comments coming, I'm all ears.
 I did talk to a private repair shop and was told something is wrong with the slide room, causing the swintec system to fail.

  Thanks

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mikeh

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2021, 12:11:56 am »
rvrunner---

I see two or three statements in your last post that I myself would be making verbatim if I had the problem you describe above:

 1.  "I don't know how much farther  I want to chase this problem."
Agreed.  With seven trips, two slide rebuilds, and another pending failure two months and eight uses later, I would be ready to chuck in the towel!

2.  "......the problem is passed to the shop."  "....the bottom line is that the guys in the shop will have to figure it out."
Agreed.  That's typically the way it goes.  I've been there.  The manager "talks" the issue, but he's not the guy that has to sort out the nuts and bolts.  That goes to the hands-on folks; it's up to them to identify the problem, solve it, and fix it.

I would still maintain that Phoenix USA SHOULD be the most qualified resource to identify and correct your problem.  They built the coach.  They install hundreds of slides per year in identical or similar models.  If there is something unusual about your slide-room--the way it fits and works--they should be the ones most qualified to spot the issue and know how to correct it.  Obviously they've not done that yet.  I would hope that if you had a complete rebuild in August and used it only eight times with severe symptoms now recurring, they're at least prepared to take care of your current problem with only your hassle of getting it back and forth.  That doesn't make it good, but it at least makes it right.

I can definitely understand your debate of whether continuing to fight the problem is even worth it.  I don't know your situation, but with 110K on the odometer anyway, I would be sorely tempted to fix the slide one more time and make a trade.  The other side of that coin is that, again, a whole world  full of Swintecs are operating out there every day, and yours should be able to be one of them.  If  Phoenix has "replaced 50 of them", I agree that sounds like an unusually high failure rate; still, the percentage of all units they built, many with multiple slides, probably falls well below 10%--maybe low single digits.

Your final comment that I would echo is:
3.  "Keep the advice and comments coming, I'm all ears."
Agreed.  I would be looking for any meaningful help too---I only wish I had worthwhile advice to give.  It sounds like you have a difficult situation, and I don't have an absolute answer.  Based on your report, I think Phoenix needs to fix your slide again (on their dime), and you will have to decide whether to stay with your unit or make the break at that time.

Again, all the best,       Mike


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CalCruiser

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2021, 03:44:43 am »
Heading home from a 1600 mile, 8 day adventure last night we stayed at a place that was hosting a large Pleasure Way owners rally. That got me thinking about their limited storage ,tiny refrigerators, single rear wheel axles, and toilets inside the shower stalls, I was also wondering  how many of our WONDERFUL little Phoenix Cruiser 2350s were produced over the years. Then I got home and saw this thread. If Tina  Cooper is still reading perhaps she can tell us how many were produced altogether, as  well as by  model year?

BTW- Whos nightscape PC was headed  NW  on 389 beteeen Fredonia and Hurricane last Weds?
Goin' where the wind goes...

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2021, 07:57:45 am »
It would be very interesting to read through Phoenix's production numbers since the beginning, the quantity of each model produced each model year.  It would also be interesting how many slide-less units were produced.

Another interesting observation was that models 2100 and 2400 both survived the 2022 model year.  They have the same basic floor plan, one being roughly 3 feet longer than the other.  I knew model 2100 was popular.  I did not realize the demand for model 2400 remains strong.
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2021, 08:28:53 am »
mikeh and rvrunner,

Your conversation is very interesting.  Your thoughts about the Schwintek slide-out system makes sense.  Any motorhome, PC or otherwise, needs to be leveled prior to operating the slide-out to prevent misalignment issues or permanent damage.  Having automatic levelers seems to be an essential feature on a rig with at least one Schwintek slide-out.

I wonder if Phoenix went with the E450 chassis on every PC (no more E350s on short models) to offer the strongest frame for the least amount of flexing.  Every frame flexes some amount, and obviously less is better.  The thickness of the E450 frame is a bit more than the E350....at least it was back in 2007.
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donc13

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2021, 05:39:44 pm »
mikeh and rvrunner,

Your conversation is very interesting.  Your thoughts about the Schwintek slide-out system makes sense.  Any motorhome, PC or otherwise, needs to be leveled prior to operating the slide-out to prevent misalignment issues or permanent damage.  Having automatic levelers seems to be an essential feature on a rig with at least one Schwintek slide-out.

I wonder if Phoenix went with the E450 chassis on every PC (no more E350s on short models) to offer the strongest frame for the least amount of flexing.  Every frame flexes some amount, and obviously less is better.  The thickness of the E450 frame is a bit more than the E350....at least it was back in 2007.

Thickness meaning the gauge of the steel, or the height of the frame "C" channel top to bottom?

I was under the impression (and could easily be wrong) that the frame itself was the same on the 350 and 450 super duty chassis.  The weight carrying capability was determined by the axle, differential ratio, spring, shocks and brakes.

Again, my impression could easily be wrong.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 05:42:03 pm by donc13 »
---
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2021, 05:53:30 pm »
I was under the impression (and could easily be wrong) that the frame itself was the same on the 350 and 450 super duty chassis.  The weight carrying capability was determined by the axle, differential ratio, spring, shocks and brakes.

Again, my impression could easily be wrong.
I have the 2007 Ford E-Series chassis specs in front of me.  On page 16, it states

E350 frame material thickness is 0.228"
E450 frame material thickness is 0.248"
They are dimensionally identical at 7.69" x 3.18"
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WillLloyd

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2021, 06:34:32 am »
When we were having problems with our 2910 I thought I was going to have to pull the slide, turns out I did not need to do that.  In the process I contacted Liftco and they sent me a wealth of information on the slide hardware, 100-fold more than was in any owners manual.  I wonder if Lippert has similar information available that may help in one troubleshoot or repair their own slide problem?

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donc13

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2021, 07:20:39 am »
I was under the impression (and could easily be wrong) that the frame itself was the same on the 350 and 450 super duty chassis.  The weight carrying capability was determined by the axle, differential ratio, spring, shocks and brakes.

Again, my impression could easily be wrong.
I have the 2007 Ford E-Series chassis specs in front of me.  On page 16, it states

E350 frame material thickness is 0.228"
E450 frame material thickness is 0.248"
They are dimensionally identical at 7.69" x 3.18"

OK, my impression was wrong.  Thanks for the info!
---
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2021, 08:11:40 am »
I was under the impression (and could easily be wrong) that the frame itself was the same on the 350 and 450 super duty chassis.  The weight carrying capability was determined by the axle, differential ratio, spring, shocks and brakes.

Again, my impression could easily be wrong.
I have the 2007 Ford E-Series chassis specs in front of me.  On page 16, it states

E350 frame material thickness is 0.228"
E450 frame material thickness is 0.248"
They are dimensionally identical at 7.69" x 3.18"

OK, my impression was wrong.  Thanks for the info!
I see I also have the 2019 Ford chassis specs.  On page 40, it states the same as 2007, so no changes were made in 12 years.  The E350 frame remains thinner than the E450 frame by 0.020"

Here is a "capture" of the 2019 spec sheet.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 08:19:41 am by Ron Dittmer »
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mikeh

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Re: Phoenix Reduces Their Models
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2021, 09:41:23 am »
When we were having problems with our 2910 I thought I was going to have to pull the slide, turns out I did not need to do that.  In the process I contacted Liftco and they sent me a wealth of information on the slide hardware, 100-fold more than was in any owners manual.  I wonder if Lippert has similar information available that may help in one troubleshoot or repair their own slide problem?

WillLloyd,

The Lippert Owner's Manual provides operational and troubleshooting information.  It provides a pretty good identification and breakdown of the components, such as motors, motor controllers, gears, racks, etc.  It provides guidance on interpreting the various light codes at the motor controllers--what they mean and what do do about any trouble code.  It also discusses how to disconnect the system to be able to move the slide manually if that should become necessary.

The manual does all that pretty well, but it doesn't go into any installation or removal of the system, or exactly how to pull or replace major components.  One factor is that the Schwintek slide mechanism can be installed differently in different RV applications.  Some of the general installation is common, but other aspects require changes.  For instance, the curved sides of the Phoenix coach required a different installation that the common straight-sided RV.  Lippert may have more complete detailed instructions available, but they aren't included in the regular manual.

Mike