Batteries

So what is the logic in using the battery disconnect when using an external charger?

I was referring to a situation where the shore power was charging the batteries, and then another trickle charger, also running on 'shore power' is attached. Not quite sure why, but I toasted a charger control board having two on one battery.

One was a 20 amp Schumacher battery charger, the other was an Intellipower 45 amp RV power converter I had salvaged from a burned motor home. ( this one - https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/power-converters/pd9100-series-rv-power-converters/pd9145a-45-amp-electronic-power-converter/ )
Trying to start a John Deere riding mower. In a hurry...how many stories have THAT line.. 
The 20A was not enough, and i had the intellipower charging my spare gate battery nearby. Brought it over, connected it to the lawn tractor with the 20A charger and *snap* got one spark and no more 12V power from the  intellipower. The two fuses didnt blow, and no wiring released its 'magic smoke'. But the intellipower is now not charging. 

Thats where my reasoning came from. Not sure of the exact issue that blew the RV converter/charger, but it was in a 'two chargers on 110V mains on the same battery' situation. Must have been some sort of feedback loop formed. 

 In your scenario, no two charger power sources are the same. (Alternator is mechanical to 12V, Generator makes 110V to power the charger on board, and the solar is from panels/charge controller)

Should I find out exactly what fried in the Intellipower unit, I will report back. I still have it, but it hasnt had a post-mortem yet.

And if you want some reading on RV and off-grid solar / battery systems try: Handy Bob Solar  He is a little well, opinionated, but he knows his stuff and not from reading about it either.

AWESOME link!  Thank you. I just got a screaming deal on 4 AGM batteries and was going to start research on the best way to utilize them. 

Got 4 of these --

Specs and Features:
Type: Group 31 AGM (Absorbed Glass Matt)
102 Ah , 12 V (1,224 Wh Capacity)
730 Cold Cranking Amp Rating
Dimensions (LxWxH): 13.42 in x 6.81 in x 8.40 in (9.21 including stud)
Weight: 69 lbs
Stud Terminal - .64 in Tall
Robust Plate Construction - A thick plate construction makes it more robust and resistant to the stresses encountered during deep discharge cycling. The unique plate design also prevents erosion of the active material which can occur during repeated discharge and recharge, resulting in longer cycle life.
Heavy-Duty Corrosion Resistant Grid - A sunburst array grid design is cast, not stamped, ensuring that no hairline fractures develop during the manufacturing process. The overall grid configuration is optimized to enhance current flow through the grid providing exceptional battery performance. The addition of side and bottom grid wires offer industry-leading vibration resistance.
High-Density Paste - The OverDrive AGM 31 is constructed with a high-density paste formulation precisely engineered to deliver outstanding performance. This high density paste formulation optimizes porosity development utilizing the active material more effectively resulting in longer life.
Rugged Polypropylene Case - Trojan's OverDrive AGM 31 battery is packaged in a thick walled, durable polypropylene case rigid enough to keep the internal components of the battery compressed. The rugged polypropylene case effectively protects the plates from damage caused by shock and vibration, and is resistant to oil, gasoline and other road chemicals.

And if you want some reading on RV and off-grid solar / battery systems try: Handy Bob Solar  He is a little well, opinionated, but he knows his stuff and not from reading about it either.

I have learned more in the past few hours than I thought possible. Probably saved me $$$. Not to mention the hair loss... 

I am gonna click your 'Neighborly' button once an hour as I read the rest. 

I clicked and scanned through that "Handy Bob Solar" article.  That is a mountain of material to read through.

What really surprised me were the pictures further down in his article.

The tiniest of a shadow from a roof vent lid on a solar panel reduced it's output by 30%.


A narrow band of a shadow from the a/c unit reduced it's output by 90%.


It seems to me, unless you are monitoring shadows on your solar panels all the time, they are not doing much for you.  Maybe it's better to mount them to a stand on the ground so you can move them around to avoid every shadow as the sun passes overhead.

I clicked and scanned through that "Handy Bob Solar" article.  That is a mountain of material to read through.

What really surprised me were the pictures further down in his article.


It seems to me, unless you are monitoring shadows on your solar panels all the time, they are not doing much for you.  Maybe it's better to mount them to a stand on the ground so you can move them around to avoid every shadow as the sun passes overhead.

He covers 'portable' panels also, and does not approve. 

I think I have a 'shadow free zone' forward of the AC on the roof.  Parking correctly will certainly affect this also.

I bet I have 2 hrs of reading on this blog. AWESOME information.

I do wish I had (4) 6V AGM batteries, it would give me a ~450Ah pack instead of the ~400 Ah pack I will get with the 12V I have now. I still have to do my math and see if that is a 'practical' size also. I have the room.

The 12V batteries were $50 each however...    I will worry about 6V replacements when the time comes.
  I am able to make a rack without a slideout also now that regular maintenance has been eliminated.   

General “rule of thumb “ for solar panels is about 1 to 1.5 Watts of panel output per amp hour of battery capacity or for your 400 ah battery bank about 400 - 600 watt panel output.  The more marginal the available sun the more solar panel output the better.  I have two 160 watt panels connected to 220 ah battery bank.  During high sun angle summer condition it works well.  Near winter time sun angles I could probably use more panels.  Fortunately my winter camping is to campgrounds with electrical hookup so panel capacity is not an issue.

If your panels are connected in parallel a small amount of shade on one panels stops it’s output but the non shaded panel continues unaffected.  In series connection shade on one panel cuts the output of the full solar array.

When you get done with Handy Bob try Dan Mayer  I really wish these guys would figure out you can use paragraphs when you write stuff.  But I guess we are not interested in their writing skills, only their knowledge of solar / off grid / RV electrical systems.

When you get done with Handy Bob try Dan Mayer  I really wish these guys would figure out you can use paragraphs when you write stuff.  But I guess we are not interested in their writing skills, only their knowledge of solar / off grid / RV electrical systems.

You are the reason for my lack of productivity at work lately...      I just read the last of Bobs material this morning.

General “rule of thumb “ for solar panels is about 1 to 1.5 Watts of panel output per amp hour of battery capacity or for your 400 ah battery bank about 400 - 600 watt panel output. 

   Gives me a good starting point.  My 'baseline' for battery powering the coach right now is a group 31 starting battery that is undercharged... so I am expecting to be very pleased with a real deep cycle battery pack.

Trickle charger.
Let me add one more story about using one to keep the engine battery charged when hooked up. 

Never had a problem with the previous coach during five years.  However, the Ford battery clamps are not made of lead, rather zinc coated copper.  By the second year the zinc wore through and exposed the copper.  Evidently the lead-to-copper difference in potential caused severe erosion of the lead posts enough so that the poor contact could not supply enough current to start the engine.  A replacement battery suffered the same severe lead erosion problem from bare copper in a matter of months.

The current solution is replacing the copper clamp with a conventional lead clamp.  Also when in storage, the engine battery is disconnected before connecting the Battery Minder trickle charger.

Charging switch.
Let me add that Kermit said that the internal wiring is not heavy enough to use for starting the engine.  Safety issue. After one starting problem where the “hold the switch” did not help, we now carry jumpers that reach from the coach batteries.

6 volt batteries.
The current battery tray nicely fits for 6 volt batteries.  The 2012 vintage tray that they put for me is slightly too small so I must continue to use 12 volt batteries.  Check before you buy.

Quote from: ron.dittmer on January 23, 2018, 10:36:50 am

I clicked and scanned through that "Handy Bob Solar" article.  That is a mountain of material to read through.

What really surprised me were the pictures further down in his article.


It seems to me, unless you are monitoring shadows on your solar panels all the time, they are not doing much for you.  Maybe it's better to mount them to a stand on the ground so you can move them around to avoid every shadow as the sun passes overhead.

He covers 'portable' panels also, and does not approve. 

I think I have a 'shadow free zone' forward of the AC on the roof.  Parking correctly will certainly affect this also.

I bet I have 2 hrs of reading on this blog. AWESOME information.

I do wish I had (4) 6V AGM batteries, it would give me a ~450Ah pack instead of the ~400 Ah pack I will get with the 12V I have now. I still have to do my math and see if that is a 'practical' size also. I have the room.

The 12V batteries were $50 each however...    I will worry about 6V replacements when the time comes.
  I am able to make a rack without a slideout also now that regular maintenance has been eliminated.   

What kind of 6v batteries are showing 450AHrs?  Never heard of such a golf cart battery.   Remember... 2 6v batteries in series double the Voltage (to 12v) but the AmpHour rating stays the same.   For example, the original Interstate 6v,225AHr batteries that came with the PC when in series gave me 12v @ 225AHr

Now putying batteries in parallel does double the Amp Hour ratinh but not the voltage... So those same 2 batteries in parallel would give 6v @ 450 AHrs.

Yes, 4 of those batteries in a serial/parallel configuration would give you 12v @ 450AHrs

Quote from: Volkemon on January 23, 2018, 11:59:13 am

I do wish I had (4) 6V AGM batteries, it would give me a ~450Ah pack instead of the ~400 Ah pack I will get with the 12V I have now.

What kind of 6v batteries are showing 450AHrs? 
..............................................................................................

Yes, 4 of those batteries in a serial/parallel configuration would give you 12v @ 450AHrs

   Looks like you figured out the answer. I edited the quotes to show relevant parts.




But of course i had to google it... and they get the 450+ Ah rating using the 100 hour rate NOT 20.. Rated Capacity (20 Hour Rate) -375 Ah.  And significant work would be needed to get 6 in an old Club Car..   

The new Surrette Rolls S-480 is an improved 6-Volt deep cycle battery with 486 Amp Hour capacity at 100 hour rate. It features thick, positive plates and large liquid reserve for high cycles. The container is built with a lightweight and strong container with integrated rope handles.

Volkemon,

You are breaking new ground in the PC world.  I do not know anyone who has exceeded two house batteries.  It will be interesting to see what you come up with.

Given our camping style, we too needed to make some changes to improve our on-board power capacity and the regeneration of it.  These relatively simple (easy to implement) changes improved energy immensely with our typical two battery provision.  I am sure more can be done.

1) Turn on the inverter ONLY when 110v is needed.  Otherwise leave it off.
2) Turn on the generator for high-energy use, short time items, like making a pot of coffee.
3) When on battery power, watch TV in the bedroom on the low-power TV powered by the inverter.  When on shore power, enjoy the main TV.
4) Changing from two 12V liquid acid batteries, to two-6V AGM batteries.
5) Changing all lighting from florescent and incandescent lighting, to LED lighting
7) Adding a volt meter in plain sight to keep battery condition "in my face".
8) Don't let the voltage get below 12.1V.  Run the generator as needed to charge the batteries.  I prefer to use a more efficient external charger to reduce generator run times, but I'll let the on-board charger do the job if it's raining badly.

One other easy power saver comes to mind, but not yet implemented.  Not so long ago, when edge lit LED TV technology arrived, I learned that some smaller LED TVs sold in stores already run on 12V-14V.  They use an external transformer in the power cord to convert from 110V to 12V-14V.  All you need to do for the installation into your PC is, cut off the transformer and wire the remaining cord direct into 12V.  Not only does the TV use less energy, but you don't need to turn on the inverter.  Keep in-mind that a DVD/Blu-Ray player and surround system still requires 110V.  So the results will vary pending the use of the sound system and entertainment source.  Roof antenna or cable TV input with a 12V TV will yield best results.  The key is to keep the inverter "off" to save more energy.

I especially like to use the inverter when we are spending much of the day traveling.  We can get sloppy with power usage because the Ford-V10 engine regenerates everything so well.  But once at a destination without shore power, and spending our days out in the tow vehicle sightseeing and hiking, we immediately change over to the conservative method.

I hope never needing four house batteries.  The topic on solar panels is fascinating as well, but I don't think they are for us.  But one thing in life I learned.....never say never.  In the mean time, I thank you and the others for the interesting reading material.

Ron Dittmer

Ron, it was your posts and advice that impressed me from the day I found this forum, so  .

Volkemon,

You are breaking new ground in the PC world.  I do not know anyone who has exceeded two house batteries.  It will be interesting to see what you come up with.


Given our camping style, we too needed to make some changes to improve our on-board power capacity and the regeneration of it.  These relatively simple (easy to implement) changes improved energy immensely with our typical two battery provision.  I am sure more can be done.

1) Turn on the inverter ONLY when 110v is needed.  Otherwise leave it off.
Gotcha. 
2) Turn on the generator for high-energy use, short time items, like making a pot of coffee.
Pattie has a maker for the stove. I dont drink it. When festival camping, I found the 1500W inverter with a 'Mr Coffee' did fine on two 6V golf cart batteries for days. 
3) When on battery power, watch TV in the bedroom on the low-power TV powered by the inverter.  When on shore power, enjoy the main TV.
We have yet to turn on the TV... not big watchers.
4) Changing from two 12V liquid acid batteries, to two-6V AGM batteries.
I wish I had (4) 6V AGM instead of the (4) 12V AGM, maybe on replacement. 
5) Changing all lighting from florescent and incandescent lighting, to LED lighting
Working on that. See my LED floor lights on the REflooring thread.  
7) Adding a volt meter in plain sight to keep battery condition "in my face".
Indeed, I am gonna spring for a battery monitor system. 
8) Don't let the voltage get below 12.1V.  Run the generator as needed to charge the batteries.  I prefer to use a more efficient external charger to reduce generator run times, but I'll let the on-board charger do the job if it's raining badly.
My recharge rate on the pack is still being determined, but it appears that AGM batteries can take a high charge rate. I am going to max it out with a charger that runs off its own shore power input or the generator. Hopefully make best use of generator 'on' time. 

One other easy power saver comes to mind, but not yet implemented.  Not so long ago, when edge lit LED TV technology arrived, I learned that some smaller LED TVs sold in stores already run on 12V-14V.  They use an external transformer in the power cord to convert from 110V to 12V-14V.  All you need to do for the installation into your PC is, cut off the transformer and wire the remaining cord direct into 12V.  Not only does the TV use less energy, but you don't need to turn on the inverter.  Keep in-mind that a DVD/Blu-Ray player and surround system still requires 110V.  So the results will vary pending the use of the sound system and entertainment source.  Roof antenna or cable TV input with a 12V TV will yield best results.  The key is to keep the inverter "off" to save more energy.


I especially like to use the inverter when we are spending much of the day traveling.  We can get sloppy with power usage because the Ford-V10 engine regenerates everything so well.  But once at a destination without shore power, and spending our days out in the tow vehicle sightseeing and hiking, we immediately change over to the conservative method.


 

I hope never needing four house batteries.  The topic on solar panels is fascinating as well, but I don't think they are for us.  But one thing in life I learned.....never say never.  In the mean time, I thank you and the others for the interesting reading material.

The solar idea is cool, and 'on the table'. But for now the $$ will be spent on installing the pack, inverters, and HD charger for use from the generator/shore power.  The stock charger currently onboard is not 'proper' for AGM. 

Ron Dittmer

Stay Tuned!  I will try to keep it interesting.   

Maybe I missed it @volkemon but where are you putting 4 batteries?  I asked for four when my coach was built and I was told it was not possible, no room.

Hi Volkemon,    just wondering if you ever resolved the issue of your house battery(s) not being recharged from the engine alternator ?

Maybe I missed it @volkemon but where are you putting 4 batteries?  I asked for four when my coach was built and I was told it was not possible, no room.

Hi jatrax,

Volkemon just might be placing a pair of batteries on each side of the entry door.  He had his sight on the under-floor space forward of the entry door, under the floor where a Euro chair would typically be today, maybe with access from a hatch through the floor.  He may also be considering the under-floor blank space rearward on his 2006 entry door, making it the same battery compartment as most everyone else.  All parts should be available from Phoenix to convert his 2006 under-floor blank space to the current-day twin battery compartment.  Remember that two batteries in a drawer below the floor was introduced mid-year 2006 as an option, and became standard starting in 2007.  His 2006 has a single battery in a drawer under the main 2350 closet, just rear of the fridge.

Volkemon, Did I get it right?