Batteries

We had to get a golf cart between the RV's to jump start the generator this last fest.

Hi Volkeman,

One trip with an RV full of family to an out-of-state funeral, as the trip progressed, multiple times I had to jump my V10 engine chassis battery using the house batteries and a 20 foot length of jumper cables.  The last jump, I had to run my generator and also use my battery charger, all in combination to up-the-amperage to get the V10 engine turned-over.  I don't recommend doing it, but in a real bind, it does work.

I imagine you could do the reverse in your situation.  Run your V10 engine and use jumper cables to jump-start your generator through your house batteries.  But I wonder if 20 foot jumper cables will be long enough for you.

About that switch on my dash board.  I have it but don't use it when in trouble.  I wouldn't want to hold that switch in for so long a time to get a drained battery charged enough to turn over the generator or the main V10 engine.  Jumper cables accomplish the same but with heavy gauge wire for the option to "jump-start" rather than just modest charging.  And if the problem battery won't hold a charge, you are surely wasting your time holding in that switch for so long a time.  Jumper cables is a sure bet for either situation, a drained battery or a dead battery that won't hold a charge.

To solve this tell us is your unit a 30 amp.... Then you are  not powered on the leg that supports the battery power. Not sure where you are plugged into the Phoenix... But to power up you  need a dryer plug or stove plug that is 30 amp.... Our unit is a year newer and we ordered it 50 amp so we have that set up in 2 places to plug in..where we park.You can use a plug in tester and tell which plugs are hot.  The 110 is only part of what you need to power things up.   Good luck.

Thanks for the update on how that works. Our plugs for the 50 were bought specifically for the RV and wired in. And at least with 50 we have not come up short and had things shut off like our friends with 30 have had. We park at our old shop. It's good for us non electrician folks to know how it is routed. Big thank u. Lot we need to know besides how to turn the key on.

need a dryer plug or stove plug that is 30 amp....

Just a word of caution here but residential 'dryer' or 'stove' receptacles are 30 or 50 amp @240 volts.  They have two circuits that will provide 120 to ground or 240 to each other on a volt meter.

An RV 30 amp receptacle on the other hand is 30amp @120 volts.  It has 3 prongs, hot, neutral and ground.  The plugs look very similar and there are any number of stories out there about RV owners plugging their 30 amp rig into a 30 amp residential 'dryer' receptacle and frying their rig.  A 30 amp plug supplies the rig with 3,600 watts (30 x 120 = 3,600)

An RV 50 amp plug is identical to a residential one and has 50amp @240 volts which is split in the rig to two 50 amp circuits @120 volts since 240 volt is not used in Phoenix RVs.  A 50 amp plug supplies the rig with 12,000 watts of power (50 x 120 x 2 = 12,000)

So if you have a 50amp rig you can plug into a 50amp residential receptacle.  But if you have a 30amp rig you cannot plug in to a 30 amp residential receptacle, you need a 30amp RV receptacle.

In 2006, that switch was an option. However your Ford alternator should still charge your house battery.
Put a digital voltmeter on your house battery, then startup your engine, voltage should go up to 14.2 to 14.7 volts


I don't show the generator/120V power transfer switch. It is automatic as described by Jatrax.
But all the wiring I show in sketch is the same for 2006 except for Inverter & that switch.

Ok... Just went out and tested, the Alternator does not supply power to the coach battery with motor running. Nor does there appear to be any post-OEM wiring present in the Ford engine compartment.  Where might the connection between the house battery and starting battery be? Might be a toasted diode, or relay not working.

I see you added the transfer switch. 

Quote from: Volkemon on January 11, 2018, 08:51:17 am

We had to get a golf cart between the RV's to jump start the generator this last fest.

Hi Volkeman,
  Run your V10 engine and use jumper cables to jump-start your generator through your house batteries.  But I wonder if 20 foot jumper cables will be long enough for you.

About that switch on my dash board.  I have it but don't use it when in trouble.  I wouldn't want to hold that switch in for so long a time to get a drained battery charged enough to turn over the generator or the main V10 engine.  Jumper cables accomplish the same but with heavy gauge wire for the option to "jump-start" rather than just modest charging.  And if the problem battery won't hold a charge, you are surely wasting your time holding in that switch for so long a time.  Jumper cables is a sure bet for either situation, a drained battery or a dead battery that won't hold a charge.

20 footers would have worked fine, but we have 15' cables.     But they reached the golf cart. 

The class C next to us has the switch, and he just had to temporarily depress it to allow his generator to start from the starting battery. Ours wasn't *totally dead* , but at ~9.5 volts, which wasnt enough to turn over the generator.

Per Keelhauler's info, I should be able to charge the house batt from the alternator. THAT would solve my problem, so I am going to investigate a bit further where the malfunction in that circuit may be. Little brisk today, good working weather. 

Volkemon,  I share your year of origin, 2006,  buying mine used from Earl last year.  It also has the single 12 volt battery,  and the first summer we used it the house battery seemd to always be low in spite of driving, and  finally  died that fall.   In taking it to a battery shop for a replacement,  the owner decided to investigate the possible reason for poor performance.  He found with the engine running the battery wasn't being charged, AHA !   Upon further investigation he found a cable near the battery with it's end taped up.      We removed the tape,  attatched  it to the battery,  started the engine,  and  voila !
House battery now charging.
Previous owner must have  "taped it off" for some reason,  maybe for winterizing  ?
So check around good under there,  maybe the cable got  detatched like mine.      If none present maybe it's just a matter of running a cable between the two ?     

I installed a volt meter in the control panel over the stove top to monitor house battery voltage.  I also have a plug-in volt meter in the main 12V outlet on the dash board to monitor chassis battery voltage.  To my surprise, house and chassis batteries see a consistent voltage increase when the Ford V10 engine is running. They never drop to the actual battery voltage until the engine is turned off, and then their battery voltage readings are independent of each other.  Something happens when the engine is turned off that isolates the batteries from each other.

Think about it.  If your chassis battery and house battery were tied together only with a simple 12V wire, you would be using power from your chassis battery for house operations.  In my PC, something isolates them when the Ford engine is turned off.  I would think Phoenix has the same chassis battery protection on all their PCs when sold new.  Whatever changes you make, make sure the chassis battery is isolated from the house when camping.

I installed a volt meter in the control panel over the stove top to monitor house battery voltage.  I also have a plug-in volt meter in the main 12V outlet on the dash board to monitor chassis battery voltage.  To my surprise, house and chassis batteries see a consistent voltage increase when the Ford V10 engine is running. They never drop to the actual battery voltage until the engine is turned off, and then their battery voltage readings are independent of each other.  Something happens when the engine is turned off that isolates the batteries from each other.

Think about it.  If your chassis battery and house battery were tied together only with a simple 12V wire, you would be using power from your chassis battery for house operations.  In my PC, something isolates them when the Ford engine is turned off.  I would think Phoenix has the same chassis battery protection on all their PCs when sold new.  Whatever changes you make, make sure the chassis battery is isolated from the house when camping.

Sure!  The schematic that Keelhauler posted has that covered. There is a line going from the alternator to the house battery to keep it charged. There is a diode in that line, that is a 'one way' valve for electricity. Allows the juice to flow into the house battery to charge, but does not allow the starting battery to draw down the house battery. Then again, it WOULD allow the house battery to deplete the starting battery if wired as shown...  Not sure if that diagram is accurate.  Shows a relay that is normally closed, but open when key is on. In series with a relay that is normally open, but closes with the dash switch. So.... if you had the ignition ON, and the 'boost' switch on, no power would be flowing to help the start battery..   

A 'battery Isolater' is in order in this case - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Cooper-Bussmann-120-Amp-Battery-Isolator-with-Wiring-Kit-RB-BI-120A/206793204?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cTHD%7cG%7c0%7cG-VF-PLA-D27E-Electrical%7c&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-ebSBRC8ARIsAGuxJIqiMM68z98RDhTY9zEFxpb1xEMobRyBeBK1S-i-UPoGs4B6crvkybkaAoaFEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CIC9v9Tx1dgCFUFvwQodyeML3A

Volkemon,  I share your year of origin, 2006,  buying mine used from Earl last year.  It also has the single 12 volt battery,  and the first summer we used it the house battery seemed to always be low in spite of driving, and  finally  died that fall.   In taking it to a battery shop for a replacement,  the owner decided to investigate the possible reason for poor performance.  He found with the engine running the battery wasn't being charged, AHA !   Upon further investigation he found a cable near the battery with it's end taped up.      We removed the tape,  attached  it to the battery,  started the engine,  and  voila !
House battery now charging.

So check around good under there,  maybe the cable got  detatched like mine.     

Just finished ripping out the carpet inside, and that shows me a big fat positive wire that appears to go to the front. It is with many other wires on the drivers side floor.  a clue   

 I will look under hood again for the wire you speak of.

THANK YOU!!

Now off to Home Depot for flooring... 

In our first motor home (Toyota chassis) shown here, we originally had a mechanical 3-terminal battery isolator that burned up after 7 or 8 years.  It was located in the upper red oval.  If you look close, you can see the black wire harness cover deformed from the heat, and the white caulk dots sealing the two mounting holes.

I replaced it with a solid-state blue 3-terminal (red oval in foreground) very similar to the one you have pictured.  That one served us great through the balance of our 24 year ownership, and it went to the next owner that way.

Hey, I've got a question.  I've seen several people say that you need to disconnect the house batteries before using an external battery charger.  Anybody know why?  I don't disconnect the chassis battery to use a trickle charger (or my motorcycle or lawn tractor either, for that matter).  Why can't I just put a trickle charger on the house batteries?  In fact, I was even thinking of installing a jack so I can just plug it in when it's in storage.

Hey, I've got a question.  I've seen several people say that you need to disconnect the house batteries before using an external battery charger.  Anybody know why?  I don't disconnect the chassis battery to use a trickle charger (or my motorcycle or lawn tractor either, for that matter).  Why can't I just put a trickle charger on the house batteries?  In fact, I was even thinking of installing a jack so I can just plug it in when it's in storage.

I don't think it matters whether the house batteries are connected or not.  No harm either way.  Just make sure the main kill switch inside your PC is off.  It is typically located inside aft of the entry door.

Volkemon,  I share your year of origin, 2006,  buying mine used from Earl last year.  It also has the single 12 volt battery,  and the first summer we used it the house battery seemd to always be low in spite of driving, and  finally  died that fall.   In taking it to a battery shop for a replacement,  the owner decided to investigate the possible reason for poor performance.  He found with the engine running the battery wasn't being charged, AHA !   Upon further investigation he found a cable near the battery with it's end taped up.      We removed the tape,  attatched  it to the battery,  started the engine,  and  voila !
House battery now charging.
Previous owner must have  "taped it off" for some reason,  maybe for winterizing  ?
So check around good under there,  maybe the cable got  detatched like mine.      If none present maybe it's just a matter of running a cable between the two ?    

I can't be positive on the 2006 models, but I had an issue with the house batteries not being charged by the engine alternator.
The fix was very simple and done by Phoenix... It is a known issue.

There is a 12v, 40A self-resetting circuit breaker on the DRIVER'S side attatched to the top (inside the hood) of the wheel well. Pretty much underneath the radiator overflow/expansion bottle.  It's about 1" long, 1/2" wide 1/4" thick that has two sheet metal screws (that go thru the wheel well) holding it in place and has two machine thread studs on top with a wire bolted on.

These crap out after a few years.  They are very easy to replace, Just make sure the leads don't get reversed.  You csn tell which end is which by the stud color code.

Below is just an example pict.

Hey, I've got a question.  I've seen several people say that you need to disconnect the house batteries before using an external battery charger.  Anybody know why?  I don't disconnect the chassis battery to use a trickle charger (or my motorcycle or lawn tractor either, for that matter).  Why can't I just put a trickle charger on the house batteries?  In fact, I was even thinking of installing a jack so I can just plug it in when it's in storage.

I can see disconnecting the house batteries for two reasons -

1) there might be a 12V load connected to them that would overdraw a smaller charger and overheat/harm/destroy it.

2) If you connected the shore power and also had an external charger there is a possibility that the on board charger and the external charger may not 'play well' together. I had that issue when trying to use two chargers to boost a battery. I connected the second and the first went POP and never worked again. Fried part of the board. 

in my 2006 there is a breaker right next to the batteries. So when I connect an external charger I just disconnected the batteries there. This still leaves the possibility that the chargers might interact through the ground, but so far so good...

Quote from: BlueBlaze on January 19, 2018, 05:25:31 pm

Hey, I've got a question.  I've seen several people say that you need to disconnect the house batteries before using an external battery charger.  Anybody know why?  I don't disconnect the chassis battery to use a trickle charger (or my motorcycle or lawn tractor either, for that matter).  Why can't I just put a trickle charger on the house batteries?  In fact, I was even thinking of installing a jack so I can just plug it in when it's in storage.

I can see disconnecting the house batteries for two reasons -

1) there might be a 12V load connected to them that would overdraw a smaller charger and overheat/harm/destroy it.

2) If you connected the shore power and also had an external charger there is a possibility that the on board charger and the external charger may not 'play well' together. I had that issue when trying to use two chargers to boost a battery. I connected the second and the first went POP and never worked again. Fried part of the board. 

in my 2006 there is a breaker right next to the batteries. So when I connect an external charger I just disconnected the batteries there. This still leaves the possibility that the chargers might interact through the ground, but so far so good...

Good points.  I guess both issues can be handled by not turning on the battery switch, but you still have to remember not to turn it on when the trickle charger is connected. 

I have to admit that I do not understand why the batteries would need to be disconnected when charging.  There are already multiple different chargers connected and running at the same time.  On my rig for example when driving down the road I could be charging the batteries from the vehicle alternator, the regular parallax converter / charger if I am running the generator, and my solar charger.

So what is the logic in using the battery disconnect when using an external charger?

I've read through a number of sources and from what I can tell is that each charger will 'drop out' once it has reached it set point voltage.  So if the on board converter is set at 13.7 and the solar charger is set at 14.7 both will operate until the batteries reach 13.7 then the converter will drop out.  Ideally all the chargers would be set at the same bulk, absorb and float points but not all are configurable so that is not going to happen any day soon.

And if you want some reading on RV and off-grid solar / battery systems try: Handy Bob Solar  He is a little well, opinionated, but he knows his stuff and not from reading about it either.