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Batteries

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Volkemon

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2018, 06:19:03 am »
Quote from: jatrax on January 28, 2018, 09:20:42 pm
Maybe I missed it @volkemon but where are you putting 4 batteries?  I asked for four when my coach was built and I was told it was not possible, no room.

If you go to the RE-flooring thread, I show where I installed 7 carriage bolts through the floor forward of the side door, behind the passenger seat. It will be a tight fit, and 'jack access' for the batteries. No sliding tray. Thats why the AGM batteries were so nice, it allows me a 'set and forget' option. Regular FLA (flooded lead acid) need the water checked regularly. Being able to hide the batteries and not have ready access is a big part of being able to fit four in there. Still might be too tight, I have not done the final measuring and setup. Might be only 3....but I hope for four.

Quote from: jimmer on January 28, 2018, 09:43:27 pm
Hi Volkemon,    just wondering if you ever resolved the issue of your house battery(s) not being recharged from the engine alternator ?

Not yet. I have been spending all the free work time getting the floors done. I hope to be addressing that issue and the battery install this week and weekend.

 
Quote from: ron.dittmer on January 28, 2018, 10:56:21 pm


Volkemon just might be placing a pair of batteries on each side of the entry door.  He had his sight on the under-floor space forward of the entry door, under the floor where a Euro chair would typically be today, maybe with access from a hatch through the floor.

Volkemon, Did I get it right?

 roflol  Sure did, probably even helped me. Again.  tymote I had not thought of getting the factory parts to install a sliding tray... Thats a FINE idea. If I cant fit four batteries in front, I may consider it. I really like getting the weight as far forward as possible, however.

I had my heart set on installing a small vacuum setup that would allow a 'toe kick' outlet at the base of the sink for sweep-ups, and a 10 foot hose for cleaning. It would fit in that area where the factory put the batteries. Pretty low on the project list, however. Unless Mrs V reads this thread and bumps it up.  :lol

toe kick - Kick it with your toe and it opens, and turns on the vacuum. Kick again to close and turn off. VERY handy.





I will be on the batteries next. Pictures to come!   :)(:

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2018, 09:04:36 am »
4 batteries hanging under the coach, forward of the main entry door will be a pretty tight fit.  And they will be extremely heavy to lift together in a container.  They could weigh over 300 pounds.  When I converted from two 12V to two 6V AGMs, I was surprised how much heavier the new 6V batteries were compared to the 12Vs.

If, and only IF you later decide to convert the under-floor space rear of the main entry door to a battery compartment......keep these things in-mind.

- If you don't need a slide out battery drawer, DON'T get one.  The drawer requires a few more inches of height.  The best thing I did was to delete the drawer and set the taller mainenance-free 6V batteries on a plate that rests on the bottom of the frame.  With the old 12V wet acid batteries, pulling them out with the drawer along with the battery splash shield I added HERE in combination was never ideal for me....just better than no shield at all.  Deleting the drawer while adding the battery shield is a perfect combination as long as your batteries are maintenance-free.

- This next comment requires confirmation from other people.  I think Phoenix makes two frame heights, the 6V frame hangs farther below the battery door than the 12V frame.  Get the framing from Phoenix that was originally designed for 12V batteries.  Without the drawer, the 6V batteries fit just right in the 12V frame as seen HERE.  Note how the 12V battery frame is exposed just a few inches.  I think the 6V frame hangs down a few inches more.  Maybe someone with a 6V battery compartment with a drawer will confirm or correct me.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 09:43:10 am by ron.dittmer »
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donc13

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2018, 09:18:05 am »
Quote from: Volkemon on January 25, 2018, 04:58:25 am
Quote from: donc13 on January 24, 2018, 10:21:26 pm
Quote from: Volkemon on January 23, 2018, 11:59:13 am


I do wish I had (4) 6V AGM batteries, it would give me a ~450Ah pack instead of the ~400 Ah pack I will get with the 12V I have now.



What kind of 6v batteries are showing 450AHrs? 
..............................................................................................

Yes, 4 of those batteries in a serial/parallel configuration would give you 12v @ 450AHrs

 :lol  Looks like you figured out the answer. I edited the quotes to show relevant parts.




But of course i had to google it... and they get the 450+ Ah rating using the 100 hour rate NOT 20.. Rated Capacity (20 Hour Rate) -375 Ah.  And significant work would be needed to get 6 in an old Club Car..   roflol

Quote
The new Surrette Rolls S-480 is an improved 6-Volt deep cycle battery with 486 Amp Hour capacity at 100 hour rate. It features thick, positive plates and large liquid reserve for high cycles. The container is built with a lightweight and strong container with integrated rope handles.







Your 16" high battery (the Rolls) isn't going to fit anywhere reasonable on a PC, let alone 4 of them plus they weigh about 120lbs each wet.

You might as welk specify diesel submarine batteries.

Your 4 Trojan batterirs will give you 204 AHrs at 12v.

My two Lifeline  GPL-4CT 6v AGM batteries give me 220 AHrs @ 12v.  Of course they cost more... $600 for 2 of them but well worth it since the fit the battery tray.  No need to McGuyver anything.
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Volkemon

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2018, 01:26:25 pm »
Quote from: donc13 on January 29, 2018, 09:18:05 am

Your 16" high battery (the Rolls) isn't going to fit anywhere reasonable on a PC, let alone 4 of them plus they weigh about 120lbs each wet.

You might as welk specify diesel submarine batteries.

Your 4 Trojan batterirs will give you 204 AHrs at 12v.

My two Lifeline  GPL-4CT 6v AGM batteries give me 220 AHrs @ 12v.  Of course they cost more... $600 for 2 of them but well worth it since the fit the battery tray.  No need to McGuyver anything.

Oh I know the big batteries were not practical. That was my poor attempt at humor saying it would take a LOT of work to fit in an old Club Car..  :-D I was just curious if there was such a beast.

Unfortunately, in my 2006 the only factory option is (1) group 31, high up and in the back over the rear axle. I think even the optional tray (just in front of the right rear tire) had to be modified to take (2) 6V , Ron has a good post on how he did that.

So... being that I have to design my own tray, go big, right? And put it as close to the front as possible.  2o2

Correct my math if its wrong, but I will have (4) 102AH 12V batteries in parallel - Wont that give me a 408 AH pack? If I had gone the 6V route, it would be 440AH.

I guess if you keep it above 50% discharge there only is 204AH 'usable'. But then yours has only 220AH usable also.  (WH)

But, as you state the 6V AGM would have run me $1200 for four. ($600 for two, times two)  :beg  I got the (4) 12V AGM for a little over $200 out of pocket. Yes, a sweetheart deal from our battery supplier.  heartshower
 
I will size the tray to allow 6V also, so when replacement time comes it will be on the table. Cant wait to get home tonight and get under the coach with a tape measure.


To charge this pack in a reasonable time off the generator, I am looking into an IOTA DLS-90-IRQ4  ( https://www.amazon.com/DLS-90-AUTOMATIC-BATTERY-CHARGER-SUPPLY/dp/B0074JVP2C ) I have been on the phone with the factory, and they say they should be able to modify the charging profile to match the Trojan AGM's I have. As delivered, the bulk rate is just a little too high according to Trojan spec's.

Battery monitor will be HandyBob's favorite... Trimetric TM-2030-RV Battery Monitor System. https://www.solar-electric.com/bogart-engineering-tm-2030-rv-battery-monitor.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiZ7PmeT92AIVFBuBCh1e4wQUEAQYASABEgIgJvD_BwE


Both together should be a dynamic pair, and ensure long battery life. Also has me 'poised' for adding solar, as the Trimetric 'talks' to the solar charge controller.  :)


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Volkemon

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2018, 11:11:43 am »
Well, spent an hour in the driveway looking up and measuring... I think it will work.  2o2  The gas tank, tailpipe, generator exhaust and muffler all hang 18 inches down from the floor. I am using this as my 'bottom limit' to extend the battery carrier down.

This allows me to mount all four batteries in that area behind the passenger door and in front of the coach door.  (cheer) (cheer) (cheer) (cheer)   Three will be sideways, which has been OK'd by Trojan and my battery supplier.

The seven bolts I installed before the floor are in acceptable positions, and I can add two more under the trim between the cab and coach area. (9) 3/8" bolts should be MORE than plenty to support ~300 pounds of battery and mount.

 Tonights plan is to track down why the motor does not charge the coach battery. (gotten a couple clues here - THANKS folks!! )  Like Ron did, I will most likely have the inverter mounted in the former battery box on the left side. I should be able to backfeed through the supply wiring to charge the pack from the alternator using the stock wire. It's 10ga, and maybe 20 feet long, so at a 5% drop not good for much more than 10 amps.  :beg  (using this handy sizing tool, and using 6 meters for 20 feet - http://www.solar-wind.co.uk/cable-sizing-DC-cables.html)

Might consider running a heavier wire to the pack, and leave the original for future use.  :-D
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2018, 12:24:31 pm »
Quote from: Volkemon on January 30, 2018, 11:11:43 am
This allows me to mount all four batteries in that area behind the passenger door and in front of the coach door.
That space for batteries is ideal for general weight distribution.

After you are 100% complete with your PC, load it up with gasoline, propane, fresh water, your clothes, gear, cookware, and food (as if ready to leave home for a trip), along with suspension improvements like heavy duty stabilizer bars and such, really really 100% complete, then add weight behind the driver and passenger as best you can to reflect you and your wife's weight.  Then get a wheel alignment at a truck suspension shop.  Assumed you will be like us, the alignment technician will install offset bushings to get the alignment right.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 12:27:45 pm by ron.dittmer »
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jatrax

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2018, 12:55:53 pm »
I'm sure the 2350 is different than my 2552 but it might be a good idea to get the truck weighed on all 4 corners before deciding on the battery location. 

On my 2552 at last weigh I was 4,850 on the front axle and 8,500 on the rear.  That is fully loaded but with no water on board.  A full tank of water puts me close to 8,900 on the rear.  Gawr is 5,000 front and 9,600 on rear on my 2017 E450.

I'm within 150 pounds of max with just me and the wife sitting up front.  Fortunately the front has fewer variables than the rear so that is not likely to change too much.  But dropping 300 pounds of batteries up front would be a concern for my rig.

Just food for thought.  (WH)
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2018, 04:12:54 pm »
Hi jatrax,

The older 2350s are rear-heavy/ front-light given the 158" wheel base and large rear over-hang.  This picture is our no-slide 2350 weighed empty but did have a full tank of gas and propane.  I jumped out before the weigh-in.


Here was our no-slide 2350 loaded up on a trip carrying lots of extra supplies including crates of fresh water, Irene and me.  Interesting is that with all the weight added, only 100 pounds was added to the front axle.  And I did my best to bring as much weight forward as possible.


Here is the PC sticker.  46 gallons of fresh water considers the hot water tank.


Volkemon and me with our 41 gallon fresh water tanks sitting lengthwise against the rear wall, makes the condition as bad as possible.  The fresh water weight lightens the front axle via the teeter-totter effect.  But all is not bad because it also makes the largest outdoor storage compartment in the history of the Phoenix Cruiser.  We keep light-weight bulk in there as not to worsen the condition.  Our weight distribution between axles is nowhere near as good as your 2552, but it works okay with the suspension upgrades I had done.  I would think the weight distribution on a 2552 is the best of PC models.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 04:30:45 pm by ron.dittmer »
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jatrax

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2018, 04:47:46 pm »
Thanks for the info Ron.  I assumed there was a difference in the units, but always best to check.  I know there is no way I could add 300 pounds on my front end.  Glad it will work on the 2350, might even help with the weight distribution.

Is that on an E350 or E450?
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Re: Batteries
« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2018, 05:12:15 pm »
Quote from: jatrax on January 30, 2018, 04:47:46 pm
Thanks for the info Ron.  I assumed there was a difference in the units, but always best to check.  I know there is no way I could add 300 pounds on my front end.  Glad it will work on the 2350, might even help with the weight distribution.

Is that on an E350 or E450?
Yes, I think it will help with weight distribution.  Not just an E350, but the earlier E350 with the lesser 11,500 GVWR.
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Re: Batteries
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2018, 10:31:54 am »
Thanks for the info, Ron! 


I will have to scale my rig also, as it has a slideout. (it's a birth defect... came with it..  :lol )  I would like to find someone with 4 scales that would handle the weight, as a side to side reading would be handy. Why?

The left (drivers) side of my rig is DEFINITELY heavier than the right. When I did the front brakes I could feel the difference jacking up the sides. Parked on a smooth level surface that side is low.  No wonder, as the generator, slideout, LP tank and coach battery are all on that side. Fridge too.   Not much for major weight on the right (passenger) side to balance it out. Thats why I am looking forward to putting the battery bank there, and also why I had no interest in putting a chair back behind the passenger seat. That area will be used for heavy cargo.

Thanks also Jatrax, I would have NEVER guessed that the front axle weight would be within 150 pounds like you found.  :beg   I best get this battery bank in, and get scaled. Operating in ignorance could be a life changing choice.  >8)

With that thought fresh in my mind..... I drove the coach to work today, so I just went and measured the (future) battery pack location. The area the batteries are going in is 1/2 way between the front and rear axle, almost perfectly centered. I would not have guessed that!!  Slightly biased to the rear weight-wise, as I am stacking 2 batteries. So the weight will be essentially evenly distributed between the axles. So will my heavy cargo. But both will be low and 'helping' the light side.  2o2

I am SO hoping to get some welding time on the battery support this weekend. Probably steel, but aluminum is being considered.

Thanks again for the input. 'Neighborly' points givin.  tymote

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jatrax

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Re: Batteries
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2018, 11:02:11 am »
In Oregon they leave the roadside scales on all the time.  I am lucky to have a weigh station about 3 miles from the house.  I wait until they are closed for the day, or go on a weekend.  The large platform scale is designed for tractor trailers so it is really easy to get a corner weight on my rig.

Takes some positioning to get just one wheel at a time on the scale but with a little help from a spotter easy to do.  Looks a little strange though.

Since I pass the scale going almost anywhere I usually weigh the rig every time we go out.  Unless they are open of course.  I expect they would be happy to weigh me anyway but I hate bothering them when they are working.  I just weigh each axle and then the toad when we are going someplace.  All four corners is a bit more trouble and best done when when no one is around to watch and laugh.  :-D
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Re: Batteries
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2018, 06:04:07 pm »
I’m really unknowing in all this so bare with me if my question seems dumb, as it probably is. Why is it so important to never let my batteries go below 12.1?
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Re: Batteries
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2018, 06:18:22 pm »
Jatrax, I’ve only weighed my rig once. I had it loaded heavier than we ever typically do, full tanks , even cases of wine for our trip. All on purpose of course so I would know under typical trips if I ever had anything to be concerned about. I had plenty of room for more weight when said and done and I’ve never loaded that much again so I haven’t been concerned. I’m sure if I loaded as heavy every time as my test load I’d check in more often but in my case I don’t have the need. 

I did not weigh all corners individually. We never had a need on any of the farm equipment and they held up fine. I’ve yet to see a big rig operator worry about individual corner weights and they run their rigs hundreds of thousands of miles more than I will ever see.

I’ve noticed here in Ca the scales being left on as well when not maned but I’ve never used them. The cat scales were pretty reasonable so I called it good enough.
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Re: Batteries
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2018, 06:28:52 pm »
Quote
I did not weigh all corners individually. We never had a need on any of the farm equipment and they held up fine.
LOL.  Well we never weighed any of the farm equipment either, which was probably a good idea. :)  A set of 4 bottom roll-over mouldboards definitely squashed the tires when you lifted at the end of the strip.

I've only weighed all 4 corners once, just to check that left / right weight was within reason.  It was, so no need to repeat that.  But I strongly suggest new owners do that at least once just to be sure they know how the coach is loaded.

I definitely have no need to re-weigh all the time, our load out is mostly the same each trip.  However, I get a kick out of getting some of my tax money back by using 'my' scales.  :)  And the weigh station is about three miles from the house and has a nice wide flat pull off.  I always stop for a final check on the tires, lug nuts, toad and whatever else might be left undone.  Probably not needed but it is a nice spot to stop and I feel better doing it.  And since the scale is there I just drive over it slow while the wife writes down the axle weights.
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