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Generator Priming.

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Gixxerkid3

Generator Priming.
« on: February 07, 2022, 12:24:01 pm »
Hi, me again. Curiosity question.  Reading through the Onan manual (4K RV QG) and watching YouTube videos, I cannot find where it says how long you should prime your generator prior to cold start. They all say “once you prime your generator….”  It does say 30 seconds in the manual; however, that is if you ran out of fuel or you drained the carb empty. 
So, question is, how long do you normally prime when cold starting in a normal situation when you shut the generator off yourself the night before? Just curious because… “inquiring minds want to know”.  LOL
Thanks,
Steve.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 07:37:50 pm by Gixxerkid3 »

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Taildragger

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2022, 12:56:44 pm »
Other members expounding on this topic at:


https://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?topic=4029.0

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Gixxerkid3

Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2022, 07:24:10 pm »
Thanks for the link.  Actually, I read everyone of those last night  with no answer to my question…unless I missed it which is entirely possible.  It does not say how long people prime prior to starting under normal conditions unless…everyone is priming for 30 seconds every time prior to starting which I find that odd.
For me at a cold start,  I have tried 30 seconds and starting is prolonged and takes way to long with multiple tries. 15 seconds is better but not the best.  I guess I will just do trial and error until I find the ideal cold start prime time for me.  I was just curious as to what most people do. 
Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 07:33:30 pm by Gixxerkid3 »

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Gixxerkid3

Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2022, 07:39:07 pm »
I did find one source just now on YouTube for 3 seconds once the prime light comes on. I’ll try tomorrow since I just started it up priming 10 seconds. Not bad.

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jim.godfrey

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2022, 08:10:03 pm »
Been wondering about this also.
I never seemed to prime long enough and it usually takes me 3 tries to get it started.
Was only priming for about 10 seconds because I was afraid to flood it.
Recently checked the manual and learned 30 seconds is normal.

Left me with 2 more questions:
If you hold it too long, will it flood?
Or does it just fill the bowl and then the float valve closes off to maintain proper fuel level in the bowl like an old school carburetor?
Also:
I have the EC-30 generator control which can start the genny automatically.
Have not tried that feature yet but wonder what steps it goes through to get the engine started.

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Gixxerkid3

Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2022, 09:34:49 pm »
I finally (after numerous searches)  found 2 videos of people priming for 3 seconds then firing right up.  Thats three seconds after the red light comes on on the priming button.  My generator manual says only prime for 30 seconds if the generator was ran dry of fuel. I will try 3 seconds tomorrow after work and will see how she goes. For me, 30 seconds was disastrous. Many times cranking.

I am not savvy on Onan carb and how they work with regard to the float.  I can only speculate.  Best of luck to you.

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2022, 10:28:47 pm »
It does not start priming until that light comes on.  So when measuring time, it starts then.

All these years and I don't have a defined procedure myself other than starting the first time for the season.  While holding the prime button, I listen hard for the fuel pump sound change from pumping air to pumping fuel.  Then I wait another 10 seconds and give it a try starting.
Ron (& Irene) Dittmer

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Gixxerkid3

Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2022, 10:48:45 pm »
Exactly. The light is the key and then you can hear if flowing.  I am anxiously waiting till tomorrow after work to try 3 seconds.  I think somewhere in between 3-10 seconds for me will work.  Tomorrow will tell.  This was just a curiosity thing for me.  No issues generator.

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mikeh

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2022, 11:34:54 pm »
Steve, please do try the "3 second" and "10 second" test, and let us know what you discover.  It would be interesting to find that the amount of time in "Prime" mode actually tracks to the starting performance--because it really should not.

There are a couple of things I can offer based on experience.  I've done quite a bit of small engine work in the past--replaced, cleaned, rebuilt a lot carburetors on a variety of engines.  I've also had occasion to go into my 2019 Onan generator carb twice--when I've let it sit too long without exercise and the engine refused to start.

The Onan carburetor is a conventional design with the float in the bowl closing a needle into a seat to stop the flow when the fuel reaches the proper level in the bowl.  As such, if there is no problem with the needle/seat, the carburetor will not "flood" regardless how long you hold the switch to activate the fuel pump. Pump pressure is not nearly high enough to overcome the pressure applied to the needle by the raised float.  As a matter of fact, once the engine starts, the electric fuel pump is energized full time, and pumps against the needle constantly.  Fuel delivery from the pump is much greater than the amount used by the engine when running, so essentially the pump is pumping against a mostly closed needle all the time--fuel flow into the bowl is only allowed to the extent that the float drop opens the needle.

There is not a "fuel return" circuit on this carburetor that flows fuel through the carb back to the tank like on many 2-cycle engines.  The purpose using the prime switch is only to make sure that the carburetor bowl is completely full of gas and there  is no air in the line or the carb. That being the case, the amount of time you hold the prime switch really doesn't matter, as long as it's long enough to completely fill the line and the carburetor bowl.  I, too, have had instances when (after priming) I've had to crank the generator two or maybe three times to start when cold, especially in cooler weather.  I think that is more a function of the choke operation on the carburetor than anything else.  Conversely, multiple same day starts normally do not require priming for me--the generator usually busts right off if it's been run earlier in the day because the carburetor bowl is already full.

On the subject of Onan carburetors, I will add that I have found the "failure to start" symptom that occurs when you have let the generator sit for too long (3 months) without exercise track specifically to the main jet in the carburetor.  Each time I've had to fix mine, I've found that the E-10 gasoline had deteriorated some in the bowl, and while the bowl and fuel shut-off solenoid in the bottom were OK, the main jet and adjustment needle had become "gunked up" from the deteriorated fuel, blocking any fuel flow through the main jet.  The condition is not difficult to correct by just pulling off the carburetor bowl.  You can pry off the altitude adjustment stop, remove the needle, clean the needle and the jet, and reassemble.  Flush a little fresh gas through the line with the prime switch and it's as good as new.  Takes about 30 minutes.

Mike


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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2022, 12:03:28 am »
On the subject of Onan carburetors, I will add that I have found the "failure to start" symptom that occurs when you have let the generator sit for too long (3 months) without exercise track specifically to the main jet in the carburetor.  Each time I've had to fix mine, I've found that the E-10 gasoline had deteriorated some in the bowl, and while the bowl and fuel shut-off solenoid in the bottom were OK, the main jet and adjustment needle had become "gunked up" from the deteriorated fuel, blocking any fuel flow through the main jet.  The condition is not difficult to correct by just pulling off the carburetor bowl.  You can pry off the altitude adjustment stop, remove the needle, clean the needle and the jet, and reassemble.  Flush a little fresh gas through the line with the prime switch and it's as good as new.  Takes about 30 minutes.

Mike
Mike,

What you wrote here is very interesting.

I am one of those people who parks his PC from October thru April or May, then starts up everything.  This includes the generator.  I have not yet experienced a problem with the Onan carburetor.  This is using fuel with up to 10% ethanol and seldom with Sta-Bil.  I have been doing this since 2007 with our PC.  In 2020 I had to replace the original fuel pump (also changed the fuel filter) which would stop working after the generator warmed up, that being our only problem one time.

If I ever think I have a carb problem, I will have to dig up your comment here.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 12:09:28 am by Ron Dittmer »
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mikeh

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2022, 01:13:56 am »
Mike,

What you wrote here is very interesting.

I am one of those people who parks his PC from October thru April or May, then starts up everything.  This includes the generator.  I have not yet experienced a problem with the Onan carburetor.  This is using fuel with up to 10% ethanol and seldom with Sta-Bil.  I have been doing this since 2007 with our PC.  In 2020 I had to replace the original fuel pump (also changed the fuel filter) which would stop working after the generator warmed up, that being our only problem one time.

If I ever think I have a carb problem, I will have to dig up your comment here.

Ron, you know how many posts have been made in this forum just over the last 3-4 years about Onan carburetors, the need to routinely exercise the generator, and the generator refusing to start if you let it sit 2 or 3 months with fuel in the carb.  There's even been discussions about the inexpensive replacement (import) carburetors available on Amazon, and keeping one on hand just to change out when that happens.
As a person fairly experienced with small engines, I looked at all those comments with skepticism, because they seemed extreme based on my experience.  Sure, if you let a small engine sit for a year or more you can have fuel-related trouble--even less time with a 2-cycle that has fuel/oil mix--but 2 months??  That didn't jive with my experience.

But I have to say that I found the Onan carburetor design is definitely more susceptible to that problem than the common Briggs, Kawasaki, or Kohler carb.  My first problem occurred after my unit sat a little over 3 months with reasonably fresh E-10 gas in it.  The second time it occurred was with less sitting time than that.  After correcting the same issue both times, I believe the design of the main jet system is the culprit.  On the Onan carb, the main jet is built horizontally into the very bottom of the bowl with the "altitude adjustment" needle inserted horizontally into it.  Needle tolerances are very tight.  Almost any build-up will obstruct fuel flow and any compounds forming from fuel deterioration are enough to cause it.  As mentioned, it's pretty easy to correct once you know what's going on, but certainly prevention by frequent exercise, Sta-Bil, and/or running the system dry before storage is a better solution.

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2022, 10:42:54 am »
mikeh,

I had assumed the carb on the Onan was like any other lawn equipment.  I find it interesting what you say about the jet needles and tight tolerances.

I assume one day I will have trouble, but that day has not yet come in 15 years.  When it does, I will be searching for this thread and pick your brain for the 1/2 hour long process to clean the jet out.

I wonder if storing our PC in dry indoor storage has a positive influence.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 10:45:05 am by Ron Dittmer »
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Gixxerkid3

Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2022, 06:16:52 pm »
Steve, please do try the "3 second" and "10 second" test, and let us know what you discover.  It would be interesting to find that the amount of time in "Prime" mode actually tracks to the starting performance--because it really should not.

There are a couple of things I can offer based on experience.  I've done quite a bit of small engine work in the past--replaced, cleaned, rebuilt a lot carburetors on a variety of engines.  I've also had occasion to go into my 2019 Onan generator carb twice--when I've let it sit too long without exercise and the engine refused to start.

The Onan carburetor is a conventional design with the float in the bowl closing a needle into a seat to stop the flow when the fuel reaches the proper level in the bowl.  As such, if there is no problem with the needle/seat, the carburetor will not "flood" regardless how long you hold the switch to activate the fuel pump. Pump pressure is not nearly high enough to overcome the pressure applied to the needle by the raised float.  As a matter of fact, once the engine starts, the electric fuel pump is energized full time, and pumps against the needle constantly.  Fuel delivery from the pump is much greater than the amount used by the engine when running, so essentially the pump is pumping against a mostly closed needle all the time--fuel flow into the bowl is only allowed to the extent that the float drop opens the needle.

There is not a "fuel return" circuit on this carburetor that flows fuel through the carb back to the tank like on many 2-cycle engines.  The purpose using the prime switch is only to make sure that the carburetor bowl is completely full of gas and there  is no air in the line or the carb. That being the case, the amount of time you hold the prime switch really doesn't matter, as long as it's long enough to completely fill the line and the carburetor bowl.  I, too, have had instances when (after priming) I've had to crank the generator two or maybe three times to start when cold, especially in cooler weather.  I think that is more a function of the choke operation on the carburetor than anything else.  Conversely, multiple same day starts normally do not require priming for me--the generator usually busts right off if it's been run earlier in the day because the carburetor bowl is already full.

On the subject of Onan carburetors, I will add that I have found the "failure to start" symptom that occurs when you have let the generator sit for too long (3 months) without exercise track specifically to the main jet in the carburetor.  Each time I've had to fix mine, I've found that the E-10 gasoline had deteriorated some in the bowl, and while the bowl and fuel shut-off solenoid in the bottom were OK, the main jet and adjustment needle had become "gunked up" from the deteriorated fuel, blocking any fuel flow through the main jet.  The condition is not difficult to correct by just pulling off the carburetor bowl.  You can pry off the altitude adjustment stop, remove the needle, clean the needle and the jet, and reassemble.  Flush a little fresh gas through the line with the prime switch and it's as good as new.  Takes about 30 minutes.

Mike


Ok results are in. As stated before,  priming a cold start for 10 seconds did not result in desired starting results yesterday. It took multiple tries to start.  Just now, 3PM Seattle time, I primed for 3 seconds (light on, 1,2,3.) and it fired right up. So for me, at my altitude and temp for today, 3 seconds was the ticket. This gives me a good idea based on temps.  Just a reminder, I have no issues with my gen.  This is all just for my info testing. 
Thanks everyone.  I appreciate all the dialogue.

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2022, 06:35:09 pm »
Depends on when you last had the generator running.  If within 24 hrs, you may not even need to prime it.  Altitude (up to 10,000' in my case) made no difference.  3 to 10 seconds depending on how many days it hasn't been running.  I run the carburetor dry for storage over the winter and on first use, do the 30 second prime.

Stabil in your fuel tank can cause the generator to quit running until you cool it off (vapor lock I believe) or put at least 1/2 a tank of gas with no Stabil in it. That could also be because when I store the PC for the winter, it's got a full tank of winter blend gasoline in it.  When I put the first tank in the spring, it's usually summer blend.  Winter blend vaporizers easier so that may help cause vapor lock... Or not.
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jim.godfrey

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Re: Generator Priming.
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2022, 09:08:53 pm »
Mike,

What you wrote here is very interesting.

I am one of those people who parks his PC from October thru April or May, then starts up everything.  This includes the generator.  I have not yet experienced a problem with the Onan carburetor.  This is using fuel with up to 10% ethanol and seldom with Sta-Bil.  I have been doing this since 2007 with our PC.  In 2020 I had to replace the original fuel pump (also changed the fuel filter) which would stop working after the generator warmed up, that being our only problem one time.

If I ever think I have a carb problem, I will have to dig up your comment here.

Ron, you know how many posts have been made in this forum just over the last 3-4 years about Onan carburetors, the need to routinely exercise the generator, and the generator refusing to start if you let it sit 2 or 3 months with fuel in the carb.  There's even been discussions about the inexpensive replacement (import) carburetors available on Amazon, and keeping one on hand just to change out when that happens.
As a person fairly experienced with small engines, I looked at all those comments with skepticism, because they seemed extreme based on my experience.  Sure, if you let a small engine sit for a year or more you can have fuel-related trouble--even less time with a 2-cycle that has fuel/oil mix--but 2 months??  That didn't jive with my experience.

But I have to say that I found the Onan carburetor design is definitely more susceptible to that problem than the common Briggs, Kawasaki, or Kohler carb.  My first problem occurred after my unit sat a little over 3 months with reasonably fresh E-10 gas in it.  The second time it occurred was with less sitting time than that.  After correcting the same issue both times, I believe the design of the main jet system is the culprit.  On the Onan carb, the main jet is built horizontally into the very bottom of the bowl with the "altitude adjustment" needle inserted horizontally into it.  Needle tolerances are very tight.  Almost any build-up will obstruct fuel flow and any compounds forming from fuel deterioration are enough to cause it.  As mentioned, it's pretty easy to correct once you know what's going on, but certainly prevention by frequent exercise, Sta-Bil, and/or running the system dry before storage is a better solution.


Mike: I always enjoy (and learn from) you informative posts. Thanks for your help!