2551 blowing 20 amp circuit

Hi Knowers Of All Things on Phoenix Cruiser    It looks like I'm going to have to live in my PC at my sister's for a little while but I need help. I was there last week and we had a problem with the plug in. It kept blowing the circuit to her outside plug ins and actually melted a couple of the connectors on the extension cords and 30 to 20 amp connectors. This happened on two separate 20 amp outdoor water safe circuits. Nothing else was on those lines on her end except outdoor flood lights on one and a simple room light on the other. The extension cord was a brand new 15 amp 50 foot outdoor cord.

It was hot and I was running the air conditioner non stop. And my fridge was on electric. But I've run everything on not the greatest and really long cords extension plugged into a 120 volt outlet for years. On both of the PCs I've had and two travel trailers. She says the outside plug ins may need to be changed but my question is, is this a problem on my end? If so what can be done to check for it or correct it. I understand we can beef everything up more. Right now it's plugged into a 30 amp plug at my house. But she doesn't have that. I understand we can get a shorter, well-rated extension cord.

My question is, is there something wrong with my plug in or is it on her end? Is the air conditioner and fridge somehow just too much for a regular 120 volt socket now? If so I don't understand how I've done this since 1995 without these problems. Also my generator is not working right now so that's not an immediate option.

Thanks so much for any help.     

I have no trouble running the AC and refrig at home on a 20A circuit with GFI receptacle at the house.   Your sister may be on to something about the receptacle needing to be replaced.   GFIs are notorious for failure and in the past several years even the brand names (GE, etc) are suspect.  An electrician recently told me he had replaced three in a row out of the box new and all failed upon installation due to faulty parts.

Also, I would hesitate to run a fifty foot cord, just like you indicated it might be the problem----unless it was at least a 12 gauge extension cord and most are 14 or 16 in my experience.  I am fortunate that my PC cord will reach the outlet easily and therefore there is no extension cord involved.   

My immediate solution if I had the problem would be to use the current only for the AC and run the refrig and HWH on propane.   You can run a six foot refrig a long, long time on a tank of propane and the refrig will be more efficient than on electric. 

Just my thoughts.

Paul

I have no trouble running the AC and refrig at home on a 20A circuit with GFI receptacle at the house.   Your sister may be on to something about the receptacle needing to be replaced.   GFIs are notorious for failure and in the past several years even the brand names (GE, etc) are suspect.  An electrician recently told me he had replaced three in a row out of the box new and all failed upon installation due to faulty parts.

Also, I would hesitate to run a fifty foot cord, just like you indicated it might be the problem----unless it was at least a 12 gauge extension cord and most are 14 or 16 in my experience.  I am fortunate that my PC cord will reach the outlet easily and therefore there is no extension cord involved.   

My immediate solution if I had the problem would be to use the current only for the AC and run the refrig and HWH on propane.   You can run a six foot refrig a long, long time on a tank of propane and the refrig will be more efficient than on electric. 

Just my thoughts.

Paul

Thanks so much Paul! We had already been discussing just switching the fridge to propane to take some of the load off. Most of my experience is actually boon docking and I've certainly been amazed at how little it takes in propane and battery to run the fridge. I just don't understand why it's causing a problem on electric now all of the sudden.

If I were to buy an external generator, does anybody know the minimum it would take to run the air conditioner in that 2551. I think specs say 3500 but that seems high. I know I've run at least close to that size air conditioner on a 2500 generator back when I had travel trailers. 

Does anybody know the actual name of what she would need to troubleshoot her outlets? I'm just not that handy about this sort of thing.

The easiest thing to do is just go to HD or Lowes and buy a good (? we hope!) GFI receptacle and replace the old one you are hooked up to.   If doing that sort of thing is uncomfortable or inappropriate for you to do I would just bite the bullet and call an electrician.   Electricity is something a guy should never DIY if you are not comfortable and competent in doing it.   I know I will only do very basic, simple things and then I make the call.   

I also have had to replace GFI receptacles in a few rvs over the years, but not so far in the PC.  You and I both have 2013 models and I truly believe the parts were more reliable in many ways back then.   

The easiest thing to do is just go to HD or Lowes and buy a good (? we hope!) GFI receptacle and replace the old one you are hooked up to.   If doing that sort of thing is uncomfortable or inappropriate for you to do I would just bite the bullet and call an electrician.   Electricity is something a guy should never DIY if you are not comfortable and competent in doing it.   I know I will only do very basic, simple things and then I make the call.   

I also have had to replace GFI receptacles in a few rvs over the years, but not so far in the PC.  You and I both have 2013 models and I truly believe the parts were more reliable in many ways back then.

Thanks again Paul. It's not actually my place but I'm sure my sister will call an electrician if we can figure out if the problem is on her end. I'm just trying to help troubleshoot this for her first since she's already doing me a big favor by letting me stay there for a while.

I also think parts were more reliable in the older models. So far mine's holding up well but I haven't used it like I did the first one, a 2005 2350. I put 20k miles on that one the first year I had it then had 50k on it when I traded it eight years later. No real problems on either except I had to have the air conditioner replaced under warranty in the 2005 one.

Between your converter/charger charging your house batteries, the a/c drawing 14 amps while running (and 50 amps for half a second to start the compressor and 5 or so amps for the refrigerator plus TV, lights, etc and add a long extension cord (probably too small a wire gauge you can not use a 20 amp outlet.

It just won't work, as you found out.  Extension cords must be 10 gague (8 gague is even better) and you need to limit what you are using.

Which means a/c ONLY no TV, no refrigerator no non LED interior lights, no fans, etc.

To properly run your RV with an external generator you need 2 Honda 2200i generators with the parallel kit.. Well over $2000.

You should be able to use your inboard Onan to run it all as long as you can accept the noise.

Don

The problem is that you are using a 15 amp extension cord.

Ohm’s law:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law

Think of voltage as water pressure, resistance as restriction, and current as flow. Smaller gauge wire= higher resistance, and higher resistance = less current.  But the power dissipated through resistance (restriction) becomes heat.  So If the circuit breaker wasn’t doing it’s job the extension cord would eventually catch fire, because you are drawing more than 20 amps thru a 15 amp extension cord.  Calculate the total load, then start by turning things off to keep it below 15 amps.

Instead of paying an electrician to replace a circuit  breaker that’s actually just doing it’s job, consider  investing in a  longer 30 amp shore power cord, or even a  20 amp extension cord. If the contacts in the 30a to 15a adapter plug are burned that adds resistance too.

RE: Generator - I use one of these, and couldnt be happier -
https://www.harborfreight.com/3500-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-63584.html




Carry it on a receiver mount cargo carrier with a couple cans of gas. MUCH quieter than the onboard when we boondock at festivals. I have one with 350 hours, and a newer one with 40 or so. Love them. Runs Ac just fine, i have frige and water heater on LP. 'Sturgi-stay' kit is handy for this also. I always use the external tank first, and only go to onboard tank for last resort.

You need a voltage readout and current draw reading. Right here is the answer:

https://www.amazon.com/Hughes-Autoformer-PWD30-Power-Protector/dp/B0791RW8M2



I love this item. Shows on my phone how much power (Amps ) is being used. And incoming voltage. It has settled a few arguments over whether I was drawing too much power, OR if the supply was bad. In an instant.



You need a HD cord. I have a 30 foot shore power cord, and a 30 foot extension. Use a DOGBONE 30A to 15A adapter at the end for the outlet when I am moochdocking. I would suggest getting a better cord for your needs.

https://www.amazon.com/MICTUNING-Heavy-Extension-Handle-Organizer/dp/B07H7C2HQN



https://www.amazon.com/Epicord-Dogbone-Adapter-Handle-15M30F/dp/B076H29WF1




OK..  now that I spent your money, you are set. 

No questions if your wiring is sufficient, and a meter that both protects you and informs you of use and supply rates. You will find power issues 'down the road' will be simple to diagnose.

Good Luck! 

+1 on the Hughes Power Watchdog. Mine is  still going strong after 4 years.
While you are turning things off to adjust the load you can watch the amps change in real time on your phone. After you are finished using it to calculate how to best manage your power you will still have a excellent surge protector with a high joule rating and replaceable fuse.

Quote from: Doneworking on August 28, 2021, 12:37:16 pm

The easiest thing to do is just go to HD or Lowes and buy a good (? we hope!) GFI receptacle and replace the old one you are hooked up to.   If doing that sort of thing is uncomfortable or inappropriate for you to do I would just bite the bullet and call an electrician.   Electricity is something a guy should never DIY if you are not comfortable and competent in doing it.   I know I will only do very basic, simple things and then I make the call.   

I also have had to replace GFI receptacles in a few rvs over the years, but not so far in the PC.  You and I both have 2013 models and I truly believe the parts were more reliable in many ways back then.

Thanks again Paul. It's not actually my place but I'm sure my sister will call an electrician if we can figure out if the problem is on her end. I'm just trying to help troubleshoot this for her first since she's already doing me a big favor by letting me stay there for a while.

I also think parts were more reliable in the older models. So far mine's holding up well but I haven't used it like I did the first one, a 2005 2350. I put 20k miles on that one the first year I had it then had 50k on it when I traded it eight years later. No real problems on either except I had to have the air conditioner replaced under warranty in the 2005 one.

One other option I forgot, rather than a generator and all that other stuff, have your sister have an electrician add a 30amp RV outlet and buy a 30 amp 50' RV extension cord.  Bet it will be cheaper than generator + the other stuff.

One other option I forgot, rather than a generator and all that other stuff, have your sister have an electrician add a 30amp RV outlet and buy a 30 amp 50' RV extension cord.  Bet it will be cheaper than generator + the other stuff.

Even at list prices, the generator, watchdog, 50 foot cord and 15A to 30A dogbone is less than $1200. and it is portable.

 Not to mention the generator is HOPEFULLY an optional purchase, as once the proper cords and power monitor are in place the problem will be solved and/or diagnosed.  Or consider what $$ would be needed to fix the onboard instead of ~$875 on a new generator.

 So really the out of pocket is around $300 for the monitor($100), extension cord (50 foot is ~$90, 30 foot ~$70) and dogbone adapter ($15).

 I would spend ~$300 in 6/3 wire to put an RV outlet 55 feet away from my panel downstairs, and thats with me doing the labor. Plus supplies (breaker, pole, outlet, cover box)  Add a 'Qualified Licensed Electrician', and I bet you could see $1200 easy.

I must "me too" on the Power WatchDog!

The watchdog checks the power before it allows a through connection to the RV and will discovery the power of the voltage is too high or too low. This saves me several times a year for damage.

The app on your phone shows the status of the device including voltage, amps and total power consumed since the last reset (which is very useful when you pay a monthly rate and want to audit/double chk the power meter on the post).  I can turn on and off an individual object and see exactly how much it consumes. It will surprise you home much power some sweet and innocent things consume.... I'm looking at you long strings of old fashioned patio lights.

A couples bonus features are  that you will get an alert on your phone if the watchdog loses power for any reason.... brown out, storm, theft, etc.... But this also includes if you become more than 40 ft away from it. (the limits of bluetooth!) The dog face also lights up so you have an automatic night light at the utility post. It's a bit of light pollution, but better than having someone trip over a power cord or water hose at night.

Between your converter/charger charging your house batteries, the a/c drawing 14 amps while running (and 50 amps for half a second to start the compressor and 5 or so amps for the refrigerator plus TV, lights, etc and add a long extension cord (probably too small a wire gauge you can not use a 20 amp outlet.

It just won't work, as you found out.  Extension cords must be 10 gague (8 gague is even better) and you need to limit what you are using.

Which means a/c ONLY no TV, no refrigerator no non LED interior lights, no fans, etc.

To properly run your RV with an external generator you need 2 Honda 2200i generators with the parallel kit.. Well over $2000.

You should be able to use your inboard Onan to run it all as long as you can accept the noise.

Don

Hi Don,

Thanks. My in house Onan generator is not working right now. I do hate the noise and occasional carbon monoxide alert when it is working. I'd say I've put at least 400 hours total on the two of these I've had so I've certainly used them. In both PCs I've slept on the couch so it's right there underneath you. Not bad for a while but I'm noise sensitive and it starts getting to me if I have to leave it on.

I already have one powerhorse 2300 and can buy another for tandem. A little noisier but I can move it farther away. Only an extra $500 and whatever the tandem cable costs.

I understand what you're saying about the extension cords and such but I don't get why it's always worked before. And not just for me. I see people using my set up all the time. This happened with two different extension cords, two adapters and two separate plug in ins on separate circuits. Why didn't it just trip the breaker?

 

The problem is that you are using a 15 amp extension cord.

Ohm’s law:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law

Think of voltage as water pressure, resistance as restriction, and current as flow. Smaller gauge wire= higher resistance, and higher resistance = less current.  But the power dissipated through resistance (restriction) becomes heat.  So If the circuit breaker wasn’t doing it’s job the extension cord would eventually catch fire, because you are drawing more than 20 amps thru a 15 amp extension cord.  Calculate the total load, then start by turning things off to keep it below 15 amps.

Instead of paying an electrician to replace a circuit  breaker that’s actually just doing it’s job, consider  investing in a  longer 30 amp shore power cord, or even a  20 amp extension cord. If the contacts in the 30a to 15a adapter plug are burned that adds resistance too.

Thanks. I'll be careful to calculate the load better but this has all worked even recently at her house before. And in the past. Not that I run everything together. I was only running air when this happened. And the fridge as I said. Not even lights. The batteries were charged from the drive.

The contacts on the adapter plugs weren't burned. There were a couple of different ones and one was brand new, one of those good dog bone ones, as well as a new pretty good extension cord. I'll try to get the beefiest extension cord and adapters I can get but I hate to ask my sister's husband to put in a 30 amp socket just for me.

I'm going to send her something to text the sockets before replacing them and we'll go from there.

RE: Generator - I use one of these, and couldnt be happier -
https://www.harborfreight.com/3500-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-63584.html




Carry it on a receiver mount cargo carrier with a couple cans of gas. MUCH quieter than the onboard when we boondock at festivals. I have one with 350 hours, and a newer one with 40 or so. Love them. Runs Ac just fine, i have frige and water heater on LP. 'Sturgi-stay' kit is handy for this also. I always use the external tank first, and only go to onboard tank for last resort.

You need a voltage readout and current draw reading. Right here is the answer:

https://www.amazon.com/Hughes-Autoformer-PWD30-Power-Protector/dp/B0791RW8M2



I love this item. Shows on my phone how much power (Amps ) is being used. And incoming voltage. It has settled a few arguments over whether I was drawing too much power, OR if the supply was bad. In an instant.

Quote

a brand new 15 amp 50 foot outdoor cord

    

You need a HD cord. I have a 30 foot shore power cord, and a 30 foot extension. Use a DOGBONE 30A to 15A adapter at the end for the outlet when I am moochdocking. I would suggest getting a better cord for your needs.

https://www.amazon.com/MICTUNING-Heavy-Extension-Handle-Organizer/dp/B07H7C2HQN



https://www.amazon.com/Epicord-Dogbone-Adapter-Handle-15M30F/dp/B076H29WF1




OK..  now that I spent your money, you are set. 

No questions if your wiring is sufficient, and a meter that both protects you and informs you of use and supply rates. You will find power issues 'down the road' will be simple to diagnose.

Good Luck!

Thanks! I'll look into all these. I do have a cargo mount I could use because I couldn't lift this generator. Also, I did have a good dog bone 15 to 30 amp dog bone but it melted.