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New Owner

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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2016, 07:59:52 pm »
Thanks Jim, good explanation of a concept that is often incorrectly described on the internet.   2o2  Lots of not so electrical experts on the internet.  Sometimes surprised they do not burn their coaches down when I read some of the misinformation they post.

I may have misunderstood them but when I was at the factory I thought I was told that they use the same panel for both 30amp and 50amp.  With 30amp they use one side for the shore power circuits and the other side for the inverter circuits.  For 50amp they use one side for the shore power circuits and the other side has the second A/C on it.  I got confused and rushed and neglected to ask where the inverter circuits go on a 50amp install.  I was guessing they would have to add a sub-panel but do not know.  Guess I need to talk to Earl.
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Pax

Re: New Owner
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2016, 06:30:39 am »
I have 50 amp and just one 15000 BTU A/C unit (a Coleman, non-heat pump). Here is a pic of the general panel schedule....

   - Mike

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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2016, 02:38:45 pm »
Talked to the factory and I was wrong about the circuit layout.  On a 50amp service normally the only thing on the second leg is the second A/C unit.  With only a single A/C unit there would normally be nothing on the second leg.  So you get 50amps on one leg, an improvement over the 30amps but nothing on the second leg.  Inverter circuits come directly from the inverter and would be on the first leg when plugged in to shore power.

I asked about moving circuits to the second leg and was told the problem is that the generator will only supply the first leg so anything on the second leg is not powered with the generator.  Plugging into a park 30amp circuit would require an adapter as well and would supply only a total of 30amps divided between both legs.

Anyway, I ordered the 50amp and had them put the water heater on the second leg.  Which means that if plugged into 50amp power all is good but otherwise the water heater will be LP only.

Always choices and compromises.  I hope this will be a good choice.
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2016, 03:22:07 pm »
Interesting information you learned and shared.  Thanks for that jatrax.

Obviously you feel it is worth the added cost for 50-amp service.  But I wonder otherwise.  Also as others mentioned, handling the thick & heavy cord will be much more difficult.  Another point is that 30-amp 20-foot extension cords are readily available and affordable.  And they weigh enough already.  I suppose you could adapt 50-amp to a 30-amp extension cord.  I carry two of them but use only one power hog at a time under those conditions.  Only once in Black Canyon Of The Gunnison did I utilize two extension cords to run our roof a/c during a very hot visit there.  Needless to say, I made sure it was the only thing running.

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Pax

Re: New Owner
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2016, 08:14:55 am »
As the picture I posted shows, it looks like our 50 amp service is wired as you described (water heater on second leg)

Having the ability to run just about anything and not worry about it is important to us.  It also more readily allows us to travel in hotter/colder climates with little change in how we live in our PC. 

The weight of the cable is a non issue for us.  We don't carry 30 amp cables, just adapters which we've only needed to use at a couple of places that didn't have 50 amp service.  Since 30 amp extension cables are widely available we decided to buy one if/when we ever needed one.  We haven't needed to yet.

While we've only been RV'ing for a few short years, we have noticed that the 50 amp plugs and breakers on the power pedestals in campgrounds and RV parks are generally in much better shape than their 30/20 amp counterparts.

  - Mike
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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2016, 10:05:34 am »
Quote
Obviously you feel it is worth the added cost for 50-amp service.  But I wonder otherwise.  
Ron, you might be right, I do not know.  We are not experienced campers, this is our first RV.  But we talked it over and felt for our lifestyle it would be worth it.  Could be wrong, time will tell.  But no way to retrofit 50 later.

  • The cord is heavier but not so much as to be a burden.  I went to Camping World and picked up and carried both a 30 amp and a 50 amp one and have no issue with either.
  • 50 amp is the future I think, any new park built will have 50 amp service.
  • As Pax notes, at any park that has both the 50 amp gets less use or is newer so is in better shape.
  • We are both still working and will have an on board office including computers, printer and other gear.  Our power budget is more downsized home than camper.
  • Wife is an avid cook and the thought of not being able to use microwave and A/C at the same time was an issue with her.

Ron you are in good company, both Earl and Kermit tried to talk me out of it, with very good arguments.
Anyway it's done and I will let everyone know next spring whether it was a good plan.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 10:11:31 am by jatrax »
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TomHanlon

Re: New Owner
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2016, 11:21:56 am »
When I had my house wire with an 50 amp outside plug I did not need it then. Later I upgraded to a larger motorhome that used 50 amps, I was very glad I had done it that way. Phoenix did not offer 50 amps when I bought this PC. If they had I would of gotten it along with the second A/C. I think you are doing the right thing in getting the 50 amp option. You can never have to much power but you can have to little in a motorhome. I am happy to see you did go to Camping World and look at the difference between the 30 and 50 amp cords. Make sure you get a 30 amp male to 50 amp felmale plug for when the campground does not have 50 amp service.
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2016, 10:01:25 pm »
jatrax, Here are some additional thoughts about the 50-amp service versus 30-amp service.

Per your information, the second leg is typically dedicated to the second a/c unit.  You have requested that the water heater be included in that second leg which places you in a league all your own in the world of PCs.

But I wonder about this.  For all PCs out there with 50-amp service and two a/c units, what about the first leg?  What is it's amp rating?  Is it half of 50 amps?  If so, then the entire rig (minus the second a/c unit) has only 25-amp service, not 30-amp service as is with a full 30-amp service PC.  If so, it would seem that is worse, not better.

Is my logic all messed up, or do I have it right?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 10:07:49 pm by ron.dittmer »
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2016, 10:06:17 pm »
Quote from: TomHanlon on November 18, 2016, 11:21:56 am
Phoenix did not offer 50 amps when I bought this PC. If they had I would of gotten it along with the second A/C.
Hi Tom,

Are you saying that you wished you had two a/c units for your 2552?  If so, why?

Ron
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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2016, 01:32:43 am »
Quote
But I wonder about this.  For all PCs out there with 50-amp service and two a/c units, what about the first leg?  What is it's amp rating?  Is it half of 50 amps?
Ron,
An RV 30 amp service is single phase 30 amps.  The receptacle has only one 'hot', a ground and a neutral.  It is similar in concept to a regular residential receptacle except it is fused and wired for up to 30 amps which would be 10 gauge copper at reasonable lengths.  And of course the receptacle is different.  This system produces 3,600 watts (amps * volts = watts)

An RV 50 amp service is two phase 50 amps. It has two "hots", a ground, and a neutral.  So each leg or phase gets 50 amps.   Phase #1 = 50 amps @120volt and phase #2 = 50 amps @120 volts.  You could (and some motorhomes do, but not Phoenix) use both phases to get up to 50 amps @240 volts by using both phases.  This is similar to a residential dryer receptacle.  Depending on how you break it out you can get two 50 amp 120 volt circuits or one 50 amp 240 volt circuit.  This system produces up to 12,000 watts.  (50*120*2)

In my case everything will be on phase #1 except the water heater which will be on phase #2. In a dual A/C coach everything would be on phase #1 except the second A/C unit.  Nothing on phase #2 is available unless you are plugged into 50 amp shore power.  Phase #1 with everything on it will be able to supply up to 50 amps when plugged in to shore power. That is 6,000 watts instead of the 3,600 available with 30 amp power.  The generator and 30 amp shore power will supply only phase #1 and only 30 amps.

There is an adapter made (30male>50female) that can be plugged into single phase 30 amp shore power.  A 50 amp coach cord is then plugged into that and both legs of the coach will be powered up but with a maximum of 30 amps split between both legs of the 50 amp system.  This is NOT 15 and 15, but 30 split as needed as both coach phases would be tied together.

I suspect the generator could be wired the same way but I have no experience with that so it might not be possible. 

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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2016, 01:44:33 am »
Quote
Make sure you get a 30 amp male to 50 amp female plug for when the campground does not have 50 amp service.
Thanks Tom, already ordered. :)

Quote
Are you saying that you wished you had two a/c units for your 2552?  If so, why?
Can't speak for Tom but there have been several posts on this forum with folks glad to have the dual A/C system.  I can think of a few reasons:
- spare A/C if one dies
- run the one in front when sleeping and the one in back when up front to keep the noise down
- better balance of cooling on larger coaches

I often see big class A's with three A/C units.

I elected to go with the single A/C unit because I wanted to reserve as much roof real estate as possible for solar panels. 

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TomHanlon

Re: New Owner
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2016, 07:34:25 am »
Quote from: ron.dittmer on November 18, 2016, 10:06:17 pm
Quote from: TomHanlon on November 18, 2016, 11:21:56 am
Phoenix did not offer 50 amps when I bought this PC. If they had I would of gotten it along with the second A/C.
Hi Tom,

Are you saying that you wished you had two a/c units for your 2552?  If so, why?

Ron

See jatrax's answer above. Plus when sitting on the beach in Myrtle Beach or any where in a hot climate the single 13500 A/C is just not enough for me.

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Ron Dittmer

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    • My 2007 2350 Phoenix Cruiser
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Re: New Owner
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2016, 12:05:35 pm »
Thank You jatrax and Tom Hanlon for the explanation and answers to all my questions.  It makes a lot more sense to me now.  50 amp service does offer nearly twice the power to general house operations (6000 watts compared to 3600 watts).  That makes for easy no-thought power management.  Unless doing something extreme, feel free to use the appliances you need, even if more than one at a time.
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jatrax

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  • OwnPC: Yes
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  • Model: 2552
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  • IntColor: Graystone
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  • Location: Oregon Mountains
Re: New Owner
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2016, 11:26:52 pm »
Quote
That makes for easy no-thought power management.
And that is the key for me.  No question 30 amp will work, with thought.  And experienced campers are used to it.  But for me, I don't want to think about power management, just go about our routine without concern.
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