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Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: jas on January 06, 2018, 11:56:50 am

Title: Batteries
Post by: jas on January 06, 2018, 11:56:50 am
I have a 2910 T 2015 year . it is in storage inside heated building Plugged in to  120 volt power. How does the batteries stay charged ? I checked yesterday the voltage was 3 volts
 nothing would work. Every thing is off. How do I check this out ? I removed the hot cable (red + ) to charged the batteries . Thanks  jas
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: fandj on January 06, 2018, 12:24:46 pm
Check the liquid levels.  The level should be above the top of the plates.  If it is below the top of the plates you could try adding distilled water and charge.  More than likely with a voltage of 3 volts and low liquid level the batteries are dead and will require replacing.  Do you have 6 volt or 12 volt batteries?  If the liquid level is ok you could have them recharged and load tested.  Also, If your built in charger is not putting out about 13.5 volts to the battery there could be a problem with the converter (charger) and the batteries are not being charged.

With power connected to the coach full time it is very important to check liquid level and add if needed at least once a month.

I typically connect my PC to power about once a month for about 24 hours to top the batteries off.  I also disconnect the batteries if not being charged as there are loads in the PC that will slowly drain them.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 06, 2018, 03:06:08 pm
Quote
I have a 2910 T 2015 year . it is in storage inside heated building Plugged in to  120 volt power. How does the batteries stay charged ? I checked yesterday the voltage was 3 volts nothing would work. Every thing is off. How do I check this out ? I removed the hot cable (red + ) to charged the batteries .
If you are plugged into 120 volt then the converter should be charging the batteries and also providing 12 volt power to the lights and other equipment.  Do you have the battery disconnect switch off?  If so nothing 12 volt will work and the batteries will not get charged.  So they might have just drained over time.  How long has the coach been in storage?

As @Fandj states the first thing to check is the water level in the batteries.  At 3 volts it is likely they are ruined but you can try to get them charged again but only after checking the water level.  In general it is a bad idea to leave the coach plugged into 120 volt unattended, at the very least you need to regularly check the water level.

You say you removed the red cable to charge the batteries, does that mean you are now using an external battery charger?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jas on January 06, 2018, 07:54:34 pm
The water level is good. With the battery switch on and the red cable off the batteries  (2- 6 volts) I took a reading with a volt meter and got nothing . Reading between the red and black wires off the batteries  These are new batteries
bought in August . The motor home is in a bay at my electric shop and started every month .Where is the converter ?  Would the converter power the lights with the batteries
disconnected  ? If so mind is not working. Thanks jas
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Dynadave on January 06, 2018, 08:22:28 pm
I am not sure I understand what you did  but if you have the red ( positive, +) cable disconnected from your batteries they will not be charged by your on board charger nor will the 12 volt lights work. You have disconnected the batteries from the coach .
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 06, 2018, 08:24:53 pm
Quote
Would the converter power the lights with the batteries
disconnected
I believe the answer to that is yes, but I'm not 100% certain.

You need to start at the beginning and work your way through the system.  

1) Verify that you have 120 volt power in the rig.  Check some of the receptacles in the coach.  I keep one of  these (https://www.amazon.com/Yeeco-Voltmeter-Measuring-Monitoring-Measurement/dp/B00PBW5A4I/ref=pd_sim_328_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00PBW5A4I&pd_rd_r=MDY655K0B3QYRR5H5M2H&pd_rd_w=i6Wg3&pd_rd_wg=xQvfI&psc=1&refRID=MDY655K0B3QYRR5H5M2H) plugged into the rig at all times so I know the shore power is on.

2) The converter is going to be integrated with your breaker panel.  Mine is under the passenger bed, not sure about yours.

3) The converter is run from a breaker in the panel.  Mine is marked 'convert', check that the breaker for that is on.  Turn it off and back on to check

4) If the converter is running you should have 12 volt power to the interior lights.  If not test the output of the converter (or at the batteries) you should be reading 13.5 - 13.8 if the converter is running regardless of the state of the batteries.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: keelhauler on January 07, 2018, 02:29:15 pm
The battery shutoff switch must remain on or the batteries will not charge. It will take a while to get fully charged at least a day or so.
You did some damage to the batteries but they can withstand a few deep discharges without killing them. Not like a car battery. If you do not want to continuously charge while stored you need to disconnect the black cable.

Note, same thing will happen to your Ford battery. There is a lot of power drain so you need to either disconnect or charge occasionally.

This is why I like my solar panels. I leave the switch to the left of steering wheel on and the solar keeps all my batteries charged all the time. You must monitor water level in all the batteries every couple of months.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 07, 2018, 03:23:44 pm
jas,

Everyone is giving you good advise.

I practice an alternative method with our 2350 stored in our heated garage.

1) Disconnect the hot/red wire from both house and chassis batteries to eliminate any potential drain on them.
2) Using a secondary battery charger, charge the pair of house batteries and also the chassis battery once every-2 to 3 months until the charger says they are full.

I use the secondary battery charger shown below.  Mine has 4, 10, 20 and 40 amp settings.  For battery maintenance during storage periods, I use the low 4 amp setting.  Readout is in amps, not volts, which is what you want.  As the batteries charge up, the number drops lower.  When it hits zero, the charger says "FULL" and stops charging.

I bring the red charger and use it on trips, primarily utilizing the generator.  Our 2007 has the older Tripp-Lite inverter which I do NOT rely on it because I don't know the charging status.  It also charges slower than the red charger.  To limit generator run times, I set the red charger to the 40 amp setting.  No worries when on a trip, but during long term storage, I fear the on-board inverter/charger over-charges the batteries rather than shutting off when the batteries are fully charged.

(https://www.toolstop.co.uk/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/bc1858c19a3798c0f2f587c478bc923c.jpg)
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 07, 2018, 04:27:57 pm
Quote
I leave the switch to the left of steering wheel on and the solar keeps all my batteries charged all the time.
@Keelhauler I think that switch is a momentary contact type on my rig.  You have to hold it in to activate the 'boost'.  I wonder if that is a change between your model year and mine?

Quote
I use the secondary battery charger shown below.
Another solution is to use a trickle charger or battery tender  like this (https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-021-0128-Maintain-Damaging/dp/B00068XCQU/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1515359957&sr=1-6&keywords=trickle+charger)  They will not charge (at least not very fast) a discharged battery but they will keep it topped up all winter.  I use one on the battery for my generator at the house.

But before you start on alternative solutions I think it best you find out what went wrong in the first place.  I am leaning toward something wrong with your 120 volt input because if you had 120 into the coach your house lights should have worked regardless of the state of the battery.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jas on January 07, 2018, 05:06:08 pm
Thanks to all. I thank I found the problem . On my coach it has the surge protector from the factory . To get the power to come on you need to turn off the microwave circuit
or it takes 3 or 4 times for it to come on with out a fault. The last time I moved the coach I did not turn it back on. I thank the convertor and microwave is on the same circuit.
So to check it all out I discounted the red and black wires from the batteries. With the microwave circuit off no voltage on the red and black, With it on I had 13-14 volts.
So i installed  the red and black wires back on the batteries. Hope all is well, Will check on Monday, jas
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 07, 2018, 05:47:08 pm
What size extension cord do you have the coach hooked up with?  Assuming it is not the regular 30 amp cord?  Your cord should be 12 gauge and as short as possible.

My guess is that the cord is too small.  When you plug in the coach the voltage drops because the converter is drawing a lot of power initially to charge the batteries.  The surge protector detects the voltage drop and cuts off the power.  Another possibility is that you have the A/C or heat pump turned on and when you plug in the voltage drops initially, again forcing the surge protector to cut power.

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: CalCruiser on January 07, 2018, 06:54:30 pm
You may have a bad converter. After charging the house batteries test them for 6 volts ( 12 volts in series)  with a  voltmeter before reconnecting the + side from the coach, then reconnect the shore power. Measure the charging voltage at the batteries. It should measure 13.0 to 13.5 volts. If you have  to replace it get a Progressive Dynamics model with charge wizard.


The surge protector won't detect a load from the microwave  when it is off. Check that the air conditioner and refrigerator are OFF too and that nothing is plugged in to the AC sockets , since those are the only other loads on the  AC / shore power circuit.

As previously discussed, leaving the rig connected to shore power can cause the oem dumb converter to overcharge and boil the house batteries. Using the house battery disconnect switch will  prevent the batteries from discharging while the rig is stored. Check if  the LP gas detector is still on when  the battery disconnect  switch is  in off mode. Try turning off all DC circuit  breakers while the rig is stored to eliminate the possibility of parasitic loads.

Storing the rig with a disconnected main battery can cause the Ford  ECM to lose the learned  data used  for emission control, resulting in a check engine light condition that can only be cleared by performing  numerous required drive cycles.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: keelhauler on January 08, 2018, 08:31:10 am
Quote
@Keelhauler I think that switch is a momentary contact type on my rig.  You have to hold it in to activate the 'boost'.  I wonder if that is a change between your model year and mine?


In my first PC it was a on-off switch, but now they use momentary, and I don't know why they changed it.

I have always recommended that the switch be changed to on-off instead of momentary. These are available at auto parts stores and are identical size and pop into the opening. The electric wires have spade lugs and come off the old switch and slip right on the new switch. Less than 5 minute install time.

Now why?; When parked for a long time, I just flip on the switch when I need to, to keep Ford battery charged. I monitor both batteries voltage with my Bogart Monitor. For long term storage this switch is on for 3 months.

There are other safety systems that are in place. Normally when you turn on your ignition you will notice that your step goes in, even if override switch by the door is on. If this battery switch is on the same thing happens, the step will go in, and no power will go to your electric awning.

The answer about the surge protector is correct. If you have anything on that pulls a lot of power and you have a light weight extension cord the voltage will drop low enough that you will get no power to RV.

As a reminder to everyone whose batteries don't last, try not to let you battery voltage drop below 12.1V, 50% charge.
(http://keelhauler.org/RV/BatteryVoltage.jpg)

All my batteries are 6 years old and still work fine.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: fandj on January 08, 2018, 09:45:28 am
You may have a bad converter. After charging the house batteries test them for 6 volts ( 12 volts in series)  with a  voltmeter before reconnecting the + side from the coach, then reconnect the shore power. Measure the charging voltage at the batteries. It should measure 13.0 to 13.5 volts. If you have  to replace it get a Progressive Dynamics model with charge wizard.


The surge protector won't detect a load from the microwave  when it is off. Check that the air conditioner, refrigerator, and inverter are all  OFF too and that nothing is plugged in to the AC sockets  since those are the only other loads on the  AC / shore power circuit.

As previously discussed, leaving the rig connected to shore power can cause the oem dumb converter to overcharge and boil the house batteries. Using the house battery disconnect switch will  prevent the batteries from discharging while the rig is stored. Check if  the LP gas detector is still on when  the battery disconnect  switch is  in off mode. Try turning off all DC circuit  breakers while the rig is stored to eliminate the possibility of parasitic loads.

Storing the rig with a disconnected main battery can cause the Ford  ECM to lose the learned  data used  for emission control, resulting in a check engine light condition that can only be cleared by performing  numerous required drive cycles.

A previous travel trailer I had was equipped with a Parallax converter that I think is similar to the PC installed unit.  It was notorious for boiling the batteries with subsequent loss of electrolyte. Many owners of this brand trailer replaced the converter with a Progressive Dynamics 4 stage unit which allowed for quicker recharge when needed and dropped the charge voltage to reduce boiling for storage.  When we ordered our unit I had Kermit install a Progressive Dynamics unit which has worked well.  I use the PD Charge Wizard that allows selection of charge voltage if desired but the automatic mode works well without any operator input required.

If the Parallax unit had failed I had a plan to replace it with a PD unit which had a kit for ease of replacement in the existing fuse/breaker box.  I sold the trailer before failure.  Many owners that made the replacement worked with Randy at http://www.bestconverter.com/

I never had a need to deal with Best Converter but they had a reputation of good customer service including helping determine which model is needed as well as being very knowledgeable on installation.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 08, 2018, 12:09:02 pm
One thing that can be done to the existing Parallax converter that will help keep it from boiling the batteries is the addition of their temperature monitoring module (https://www.amazon.com/Parallax-Power-4400TAU-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B00MI3UY8K).

I added one to my rig as soon as I got it.  Simple install, and around $60.  It monitors the battery temperature and adjusts the charging voltage to keep the batteries from boiling.  I really do not know why this is not standard equipment.

Maybe not as good as a PD 4 stage charger but if you are not ready to swap out the converter yet the TempAssure might be a good investment.

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 08, 2018, 04:33:21 pm
One thing that can be done to the existing Parallax converter that will help keep it from boiling the batteries is the addition of their temperature monitoring module (https://www.amazon.com/Parallax-Power-4400TAU-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B00MI3UY8K).

I added one to my rig as soon as I got it.  Simple install, and around $60.  It monitors the battery temperature and adjusts the charging voltage to keep the batteries from boiling.  I really do not know why this is not standard equipment.

Maybe not as good as a PD 4 stage charger but if you are not ready to swap out the converter yet the TempAssure might be a good investment.


Our 10 year old Tripp-Lite inverter has a temperature sensor that is taped to one of the two batteries, sandwiched between the batteries.  I swear that thing never did any good from day #1, but still I make sure it's in place with wire dressed properly......just in-case I am wrong.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 09, 2018, 12:25:54 am
Quote
Our 10 year old Tripp-Lite inverter has a temperature sensor that is taped to one of the two batteries
Ron, what is the point of having a temperature sensor from the inverter?  I mean, what does it do?  Or is the Tripp-Lite a charger as well?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 09, 2018, 09:30:15 pm
Quote
Our 10 year old Tripp-Lite inverter has a temperature sensor that is taped to one of the two batteries
Ron, what is the point of having a temperature sensor from the inverter?  I mean, what does it do?  Or is the Tripp-Lite a charger as well?
Hi jatrax,

Yes the Tripp-Lite is a charger and inverter.  It performs both functions.  Doesn't the current day inverter do the same?  I always thought every different inverter that Phoenix installed  since 2006, also charged the batteries.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 09, 2018, 11:18:02 pm
Quote
Yes the Tripp-Lite is a charger and inverter.  It performs both functions.  Doesn't the current day inverter do the same?  I always thought every different inverter that Phoenix installed  since 2006, also charged the batteries.
No, not at all.  There are some converter / inverter units on the market but the majority I see advertised are stand alone.  Certainly nothing Phoenix has used recently is a combo like yours.

My rig uses a Parallax converter / power center (http://www.parallaxpower.com/5355-power-center-5355) and a stand alone Xantrex inverter. (http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-inverters/freedom-xi.aspx)  The Xantrex has no charging or converting functionality, pure inverter.

And that explains the temperature sensor, the inverter has no need but the charger portion of the Tripp-Lite is presumably using it to not overcharge the batteries.  Of course I'm just guessing at that.  But the temperature monitor added to my Parallax charger does that.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 10, 2018, 08:45:31 am
Quote
Yes the Tripp-Lite is a charger and inverter.  It performs both functions.  Doesn't the current day inverter do the same?  I always thought every different inverter that Phoenix installed  since 2006, also charged the batteries.
No, not at all.  There are some converter / inverter units on the market but the majority I see advertised are stand alone.  Certainly nothing Phoenix has used recently is a combo like yours.

My rig uses a Parallax converter / power center (http://www.parallaxpower.com/5355-power-center-5355) and a stand alone Xantrex inverter. (http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-inverters/freedom-xi.aspx)  The Xantrex has no charging or converting functionality, pure inverter.

And that explains the temperature sensor, the inverter has no need but the charger portion of the Tripp-Lite is presumably using it to not overcharge the batteries.  Of course I'm just guessing at that.  But the temperature monitor added to my Parallax charger does that.
Thanks for the detailed explanation jatrax.  That explains all the forum discussions I've read on Xantrex and Parallax.  I had thought Phoenix had been installing different brands of the same functional unit we have.  It never crossed my mind that they were performing dedicated inverting and charging functions.

All these years of these discussions....I feel like a dodo bird.

I had always known the sensor on our rig was a temperature sensor, but given our history with two different sets of 12V batteries, I question it's performance.  Maybe it works well.  Without it, matters might have been much worse with boil-overs.  I will never know now that I have two 6V AGM sealed batteries.  I still use the sensor.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 10, 2018, 11:31:34 am
Agree Ron, just because there is a temp sensor there does not mean the unit is using it intelligently.  I had a lengthy discussion with someone at Parallax about the temperature sensor they offer and he was extremely positive about the results, regardless of battery type.  I also have AGM and he still felt the temp sensor would improve both charge state and battery life.  According to him with the temp sensor the Parallax will charge at voltages up to 14.4.  Without it they max out at 13.7 because the charger has no way to know what is happening at the batteries so it plays safe.

Battery charging is also more complicated when multiple inputs are available.  On my rig the batteries can be charged by the alternator, the solar charger or the charger in the Parallax power center.  The Parallax without temp sensor maxs out at 13.7 but with temp sensor will go to 14.4.  The solar charger is more configurable and will go to 14.7 which is the recommended charge voltage for Trojan AGM batteries.  So the only way to actually maximize the charge on my rig is with the solar charger.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 10, 2018, 11:52:58 am
Agree Ron, just because there is a temp sensor there does not mean the unit is using it intelligently.  I had a lengthy discussion with someone at Parallax about the temperature sensor they offer and he was extremely positive about the results, regardless of battery type.  I also have AGM and he still felt the temp sensor would improve both charge state and battery life.  According to him with the temp sensor the Parallax will charge at voltages up to 14.4.  Without it they max out at 13.7 because the charger has no way to know what is happening at the batteries so it plays safe.

Battery charging is also more complicated when multiple inputs are available.  On my rig the batteries can be charged by the alternator, the solar charger or the charger in the Parallax power center.  The Parallax without temp sensor maxs out at 13.7 but with temp sensor will go to 14.4.  The solar charger is more configurable and will go to 14.7 which is the recommended charge voltage for Trojan AGM batteries.  So the only way to actually maximize the charge on my rig is with the solar charger.
That is quite interesting.  Thanks for the explanation.

I don't recall the voltage output of our Tripp-Lite but I do recall it is more since I reconfigured it for AGM technology when switching to AGM batteries.  I'll have to pay close attention at next opportunity.  I could do it here at home, but not up to it.  Maybe after I am doing better dealing with a Christmas gift someone gave me...it keeps on giving.  :)
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: donc13 on January 10, 2018, 04:33:29 pm
jas,

Everyone is giving you good advise.

I practice an alternative method with our 2350 stored in our heated garage.

1) Disconnect the hot/red wire from both house and chassis batteries to eliminate any potential drain on them.
2) Using a secondary battery charger, charge the pair of house batteries and also the chassis battery once every-2 to 3 months until the charger says they are full.

I use the secondary battery charger shown below.  Mine has 4, 10, 20 and 40 amp settings.  For battery maintenance during storage periods, I use the low 4 amp setting.  Readout is in amps, not volts, which is what you want.  As the batteries charge up, the number drops lower.  When it hits zero, the charger says "FULL" and stops charging.

I bring the red charger and use it on trips, primarily utilizing the generator.  Our 2007 has the older Tripp-Lite inverter which I do NOT rely on it because I don't know the charging status.  It also charges slower than the red charger.  To limit generator run times, I set the red charger to the 40 amp setting.  No worries when on a trip, but during long term storage, I fear the on-board inverter/charger over-charges the batteries rather than shutting off when the batteries are fully charged.

(https://www.toolstop.co.uk/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/bc1858c19a3798c0f2f587c478bc923c.jpg)

Ron (and ALL)

when working with auto/golf cart batteries... ALWAYS remove the NEGATIVE cable first!  

You can not accidently "touch" ground with a hot line if you do this.

I've seen people badly burned when they tried to removr the red (positive) cable first and the removal tool touched ground.  The spark caused several of the batteries to explode and douse the folks in sulphuric acid.

Removing ground first means the only place the removal tool can cause a spark is if you touch the positive post with the removal tool  

Once the ground wire is removed, you can touch ANY "12v hot" lead to the chassis and there is no danger... as long as there is NO wire on the negative terminal.

When putting battery cables back on, negative always goes on LAST.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 10, 2018, 05:26:45 pm
Very good advice Don  2o2
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jimmer on January 10, 2018, 07:28:50 pm
Interesting information and discussion here by all parties !     

Dumb question:  If the generator is running,  what pathway is it taking to run the coach and charge the house battery(s).    Same as shore power  ?

Jim
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 10, 2018, 09:28:40 pm
Quote
what pathway is it taking to run the coach and charge the house battery(s).    Same as shore power  ?
In general yes.  Some coaches or trailers have a receptacle that you plug the generator into just like you would plug in the shore power cable.

On Phoenix coaches (all I have seen anyway) there is an ATS or Automatic Transfer Switch in the path.  Both the shore power plug and a feed from the generator go to the ATS.  It has the ability to sense power on both the inputs.  It is programmed to give power from the generator priority, so if it detects power on the generator feed it switches to generator.  So if you only have shore power that is connected to the coach, if you have only generator that is connected to the coach and if you have both then the generator gets connected.

After (or downstream) of the ATS the power goes to the power center / converter and powers the coach and charges the batteries.  The power center does not know or care where the 120 volt power is coming from.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 11, 2018, 08:02:16 am


On Phoenix coaches (all I have seen anyway) there is an ATS or Automatic Transfer Switch in the path.  Both the shore power plug and a feed from the generator go to the ATS.  It has the ability to sense power on both the inputs.  It is programmed to give power from the generator priority, so if it detects power on the generator feed it switches to generator.  So if you only have shore power that is connected to the coach, if you have only generator that is connected to the coach and if you have both then the generator gets connected.



MOST helpful  :-D !  I have a 2006 coach without an inverter, and would like to add one.  In the later coaches that do have one, how is the output routed to the coach outlets?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: keelhauler on January 11, 2018, 08:20:42 am
Quote
MOST helpful  Grin !  I have a 2006 coach without an inverter, and would like to add one.  In the later coaches that do have one, how is the output routed to the coach outlets?

See this electrical drawing which is basically the same no matter what model you have.
(http://keelhauler.org/RV/2552ElectricalSystem.jpg)
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 11, 2018, 08:51:17 am
Thanks Keelhauler!

But I think that is a diagram for 2007+ and mine is a 2006.

1) My starting battery is not connected to the coach battery in any way I am aware of. I do not have a dash switch to link them together. (Or if i do... has not been found yet.  :lol We had to get a golf cart between the RV's to jump start the generator this last fest. )

1a) The alternator does not charge my coach battery to my knowledge. Unless I do have the dash switch ...and just have not found it.

2) I dont see the ' Automatic Transfer Switch ' referred to in that diagram, or wiring to accommodate it between the generator and shore power.

I will be spending some time this weekend on the camper, and getting to know the electrical system better.  (nod) Thanks again for the help!
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: keelhauler on January 11, 2018, 02:57:57 pm
In 2006, that switch was an option. However your Ford alternator should still charge your house battery.
Put a digital voltmeter on your house battery, then startup your engine, voltage should go up to 14.2 to 14.7 volts


I don't show the generator/120V power transfer switch. It is automatic as described by Jatrax.
But all the wiring I show in sketch is the same for 2006 except for Inverter & that switch.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 11, 2018, 04:10:15 pm
We had to get a golf cart between the RV's to jump start the generator this last fest.
Hi Volkeman,

One trip with an RV full of family to an out-of-state funeral, as the trip progressed, multiple times I had to jump my V10 engine chassis battery using the house batteries and a 20 foot length of jumper cables.  The last jump, I had to run my generator and also use my battery charger, all in combination to up-the-amperage to get the V10 engine turned-over.  I don't recommend doing it, but in a real bind, it does work.

I imagine you could do the reverse in your situation.  Run your V10 engine and use jumper cables to jump-start your generator through your house batteries.  But I wonder if 20 foot jumper cables will be long enough for you.

About that switch on my dash board.  I have it but don't use it when in trouble.  I wouldn't want to hold that switch in for so long a time to get a drained battery charged enough to turn over the generator or the main V10 engine.  Jumper cables accomplish the same but with heavy gauge wire for the option to "jump-start" rather than just modest charging.  And if the problem battery won't hold a charge, you are surely wasting your time holding in that switch for so long a time.  Jumper cables is a sure bet for either situation, a drained battery or a dead battery that won't hold a charge.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: HenryJ on January 11, 2018, 08:20:29 pm
To solve this tell us is your unit a 30 amp.... Then you are  not powered on the leg that supports the battery power. Not sure where you are plugged into the Phoenix... But to power up you  need a dryer plug or stove plug that is 30 amp.... Our unit is a year newer and we ordered it 50 amp so we have that set up in 2 places to plug in..where we park.You can use a plug in tester and tell which plugs are hot.  The 110 is only part of what you need to power things up.   Good luck.

Thanks for the update on how that works. Our plugs for the 50 were bought specifically for the RV and wired in. And at least with 50 we have not come up short and had things shut off like our friends with 30 have had. We park at our old shop. It's good for us non electrician folks to know how it is routed. Big thank u. Lot we need to know besides how to turn the key on.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 11, 2018, 08:54:18 pm
Quote
need a dryer plug or stove plug that is 30 amp....
Just a word of caution here but residential 'dryer' or 'stove' receptacles are 30 or 50 amp @240 volts.  They have two circuits that will provide 120 to ground or 240 to each other on a volt meter.

An RV 30 amp receptacle on the other hand is 30amp @120 volts.  It has 3 prongs, hot, neutral and ground.  The plugs look very similar and there are any number of stories out there about RV owners plugging their 30 amp rig into a 30 amp residential 'dryer' receptacle and frying their rig.  A 30 amp plug supplies the rig with 3,600 watts (30 x 120 = 3,600)

An RV 50 amp plug is identical to a residential one and has 50amp @240 volts which is split in the rig to two 50 amp circuits @120 volts since 240 volt is not used in Phoenix RVs.  A 50 amp plug supplies the rig with 12,000 watts of power (50 x 120 x 2 = 12,000)

So if you have a 50amp rig you can plug into a 50amp residential receptacle.  But if you have a 30amp rig you cannot plug in to a 30 amp residential receptacle, you need a 30amp RV receptacle.

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 13, 2018, 12:54:08 pm
In 2006, that switch was an option. However your Ford alternator should still charge your house battery.
Put a digital voltmeter on your house battery, then startup your engine, voltage should go up to 14.2 to 14.7 volts


I don't show the generator/120V power transfer switch. It is automatic as described by Jatrax.
But all the wiring I show in sketch is the same for 2006 except for Inverter & that switch.


Ok... Just went out and tested, the Alternator does not supply power to the coach battery with motor running. Nor does there appear to be any post-OEM wiring present in the Ford engine compartment.  Where might the connection between the house battery and starting battery be? Might be a toasted diode, or relay not working.

I see you added the transfer switch.  :-D

We had to get a golf cart between the RV's to jump start the generator this last fest.
Hi Volkeman,
  Run your V10 engine and use jumper cables to jump-start your generator through your house batteries.  But I wonder if 20 foot jumper cables will be long enough for you.

About that switch on my dash board.  I have it but don't use it when in trouble.  I wouldn't want to hold that switch in for so long a time to get a drained battery charged enough to turn over the generator or the main V10 engine.  Jumper cables accomplish the same but with heavy gauge wire for the option to "jump-start" rather than just modest charging.  And if the problem battery won't hold a charge, you are surely wasting your time holding in that switch for so long a time.  Jumper cables is a sure bet for either situation, a drained battery or a dead battery that won't hold a charge.

20 footers would have worked fine, but we have 15' cables.  >(   But they reached the golf cart.  2o2

The class C next to us has the switch, and he just had to temporarily depress it to allow his generator to start from the starting battery. Ours wasn't *totally dead* , but at ~9.5 volts, which wasnt enough to turn over the generator.

Per Keelhauler's info, I should be able to charge the house batt from the alternator. THAT would solve my problem, so I am going to investigate a bit further where the malfunction in that circuit may be. Little brisk today, good working weather.  :-D








Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jimmer on January 13, 2018, 03:02:51 pm
Volkemon,  I share your year of origin, 2006,  buying mine used from Earl last year.  It also has the single 12 volt battery,  and the first summer we used it the house battery seemd to always be low in spite of driving, and  finally  died that fall.   In taking it to a battery shop for a replacement,  the owner decided to investigate the possible reason for poor performance.  He found with the engine running the battery wasn't being charged, AHA !   Upon further investigation he found a cable near the battery with it's end taped up.      We removed the tape,  attatched  it to the battery,  started the engine,  and  voila !
House battery now charging.
Previous owner must have  "taped it off" for some reason,  maybe for winterizing  ?
So check around good under there,  maybe the cable got  detatched like mine.      If none present maybe it's just a matter of running a cable between the two ?     
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 13, 2018, 03:57:53 pm
I installed a volt meter in the control panel over the stove top to monitor house battery voltage.  I also have a plug-in volt meter in the main 12V outlet on the dash board to monitor chassis battery voltage.  To my surprise, house and chassis batteries see a consistent voltage increase when the Ford V10 engine is running. They never drop to the actual battery voltage until the engine is turned off, and then their battery voltage readings are independent of each other.  Something happens when the engine is turned off that isolates the batteries from each other.

Think about it.  If your chassis battery and house battery were tied together only with a simple 12V wire, you would be using power from your chassis battery for house operations.  In my PC, something isolates them when the Ford engine is turned off.  I would think Phoenix has the same chassis battery protection on all their PCs when sold new.  Whatever changes you make, make sure the chassis battery is isolated from the house when camping.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 13, 2018, 04:47:10 pm
I installed a volt meter in the control panel over the stove top to monitor house battery voltage.  I also have a plug-in volt meter in the main 12V outlet on the dash board to monitor chassis battery voltage.  To my surprise, house and chassis batteries see a consistent voltage increase when the Ford V10 engine is running. They never drop to the actual battery voltage until the engine is turned off, and then their battery voltage readings are independent of each other.  Something happens when the engine is turned off that isolates the batteries from each other.

Think about it.  If your chassis battery and house battery were tied together only with a simple 12V wire, you would be using power from your chassis battery for house operations.  In my PC, something isolates them when the Ford engine is turned off.  I would think Phoenix has the same chassis battery protection on all their PCs when sold new.  Whatever changes you make, make sure the chassis battery is isolated from the house when camping.

Sure!  The schematic that Keelhauler posted has that covered. There is a line going from the alternator to the house battery to keep it charged. There is a diode in that line, that is a 'one way' valve for electricity. Allows the juice to flow into the house battery to charge, but does not allow the starting battery to draw down the house battery. Then again, it WOULD allow the house battery to deplete the starting battery if wired as shown...  :help Not sure if that diagram is accurate.  Shows a relay that is normally closed, but open when key is on. In series with a relay that is normally open, but closes with the dash switch. So.... if you had the ignition ON, and the 'boost' switch on, no power would be flowing to help the start battery..   :beg :'(

A 'battery Isolater' is in order in this case - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Cooper-Bussmann-120-Amp-Battery-Isolator-with-Wiring-Kit-RB-BI-120A/206793204?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cTHD%7cG%7c0%7cG-VF-PLA-D27E-Electrical%7c&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-ebSBRC8ARIsAGuxJIqiMM68z98RDhTY9zEFxpb1xEMobRyBeBK1S-i-UPoGs4B6crvkybkaAoaFEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CIC9v9Tx1dgCFUFvwQodyeML3A
(https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/4472a6c3-7457-40b2-8898-a6905217e895/svn/cooper-bussmann-fuses-rb-bi-120a-64_1000.jpg)


Volkemon,  I share your year of origin, 2006,  buying mine used from Earl last year.  It also has the single 12 volt battery,  and the first summer we used it the house battery seemed to always be low in spite of driving, and  finally  died that fall.   In taking it to a battery shop for a replacement,  the owner decided to investigate the possible reason for poor performance.  He found with the engine running the battery wasn't being charged, AHA !   Upon further investigation he found a cable near the battery with it's end taped up.      We removed the tape,  attached  it to the battery,  started the engine,  and  voila !
House battery now charging.

So check around good under there,  maybe the cable got  detatched like mine.     

Just finished ripping out the carpet inside, and that shows me a big fat positive wire that appears to go to the front. It is with many other wires on the drivers side floor.  (cheer) a clue  (cheer) 

 I will look under hood again for the wire you speak of.

THANK YOU!!

Now off to Home Depot for flooring...  >:(
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 13, 2018, 06:46:46 pm
In our first motor home (Toyota chassis) shown here, we originally had a mechanical 3-terminal battery isolator that burned up after 7 or 8 years.  It was located in the upper red oval.  If you look close, you can see the black wire harness cover deformed from the heat, and the white caulk dots sealing the two mounting holes.

I replaced it with a solid-state blue 3-terminal (red oval in foreground) very similar to the one you have pictured.  That one served us great through the balance of our 24 year ownership, and it went to the next owner that way.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/535/32389374485_58f2287a72_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: BlueBlaze on January 19, 2018, 05:25:31 pm
Hey, I've got a question.  I've seen several people say that you need to disconnect the house batteries before using an external battery charger.  Anybody know why?  I don't disconnect the chassis battery to use a trickle charger (or my motorcycle or lawn tractor either, for that matter).  Why can't I just put a trickle charger on the house batteries?  In fact, I was even thinking of installing a jack so I can just plug it in when it's in storage.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 19, 2018, 05:31:06 pm
Hey, I've got a question.  I've seen several people say that you need to disconnect the house batteries before using an external battery charger.  Anybody know why?  I don't disconnect the chassis battery to use a trickle charger (or my motorcycle or lawn tractor either, for that matter).  Why can't I just put a trickle charger on the house batteries?  In fact, I was even thinking of installing a jack so I can just plug it in when it's in storage.
I don't think it matters whether the house batteries are connected or not.  No harm either way.  Just make sure the main kill switch inside your PC is off.  It is typically located inside aft of the entry door.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: donc13 on January 19, 2018, 08:14:35 pm
Volkemon,  I share your year of origin, 2006,  buying mine used from Earl last year.  It also has the single 12 volt battery,  and the first summer we used it the house battery seemd to always be low in spite of driving, and  finally  died that fall.   In taking it to a battery shop for a replacement,  the owner decided to investigate the possible reason for poor performance.  He found with the engine running the battery wasn't being charged, AHA !   Upon further investigation he found a cable near the battery with it's end taped up.      We removed the tape,  attatched  it to the battery,  started the engine,  and  voila !
House battery now charging.
Previous owner must have  "taped it off" for some reason,  maybe for winterizing  ?
So check around good under there,  maybe the cable got  detatched like mine.      If none present maybe it's just a matter of running a cable between the two ?    

I can't be positive on the 2006 models, but I had an issue with the house batteries not being charged by the engine alternator.
The fix was very simple and done by Phoenix... It is a known issue.

There is a 12v, 40A self-resetting circuit breaker on the DRIVER'S side attatched to the top (inside the hood) of the wheel well. Pretty much underneath the radiator overflow/expansion bottle.  It's about 1" long, 1/2" wide 1/4" thick that has two sheet metal screws (that go thru the wheel well) holding it in place and has two machine thread studs on top with a wire bolted on.

These crap out after a few years.  They are very easy to replace, Just make sure the leads don't get reversed.  You csn tell which end is which by the stud color code.

Below is just an example pict.



Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 21, 2018, 11:51:02 am
Hey, I've got a question.  I've seen several people say that you need to disconnect the house batteries before using an external battery charger.  Anybody know why?  I don't disconnect the chassis battery to use a trickle charger (or my motorcycle or lawn tractor either, for that matter).  Why can't I just put a trickle charger on the house batteries?  In fact, I was even thinking of installing a jack so I can just plug it in when it's in storage.

I can see disconnecting the house batteries for two reasons -

1) there might be a 12V load connected to them that would overdraw a smaller charger and overheat/harm/destroy it.

2) If you connected the shore power and also had an external charger there is a possibility that the on board charger and the external charger may not 'play well' together. I had that issue when trying to use two chargers to boost a battery. I connected the second and the first went POP and never worked again. Fried part of the board.  :beg

in my 2006 there is a breaker right next to the batteries. So when I connect an external charger I just disconnected the batteries there. This still leaves the possibility that the chargers might interact through the ground, but so far so good...
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: BlueBlaze on January 22, 2018, 08:56:12 pm
Hey, I've got a question.  I've seen several people say that you need to disconnect the house batteries before using an external battery charger.  Anybody know why?  I don't disconnect the chassis battery to use a trickle charger (or my motorcycle or lawn tractor either, for that matter).  Why can't I just put a trickle charger on the house batteries?  In fact, I was even thinking of installing a jack so I can just plug it in when it's in storage.

I can see disconnecting the house batteries for two reasons -

1) there might be a 12V load connected to them that would overdraw a smaller charger and overheat/harm/destroy it.

2) If you connected the shore power and also had an external charger there is a possibility that the on board charger and the external charger may not 'play well' together. I had that issue when trying to use two chargers to boost a battery. I connected the second and the first went POP and never worked again. Fried part of the board.  :beg

in my 2006 there is a breaker right next to the batteries. So when I connect an external charger I just disconnected the batteries there. This still leaves the possibility that the chargers might interact through the ground, but so far so good...

Good points.  I guess both issues can be handled by not turning on the battery switch, but you still have to remember not to turn it on when the trickle charger is connected. 
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 22, 2018, 11:39:49 pm
I have to admit that I do not understand why the batteries would need to be disconnected when charging.  There are already multiple different chargers connected and running at the same time.  On my rig for example when driving down the road I could be charging the batteries from the vehicle alternator, the regular parallax converter / charger if I am running the generator, and my solar charger.

So what is the logic in using the battery disconnect when using an external charger?

I've read through a number of sources and from what I can tell is that each charger will 'drop out' once it has reached it set point voltage.  So if the on board converter is set at 13.7 and the solar charger is set at 14.7 both will operate until the batteries reach 13.7 then the converter will drop out.  Ideally all the chargers would be set at the same bulk, absorb and float points but not all are configurable so that is not going to happen any day soon.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 22, 2018, 11:54:06 pm
And if you want some reading on RV and off-grid solar / battery systems try: Handy Bob Solar (https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/)  He is a little well, opinionated, but he knows his stuff and not from reading about it either.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 23, 2018, 05:36:08 am


So what is the logic in using the battery disconnect when using an external charger?



I was referring to a situation where the shore power was charging the batteries, and then another trickle charger, also running on 'shore power' is attached. Not quite sure why, but I toasted a charger control board having two on one battery.

One was a 20 amp Schumacher battery charger, the other was an Intellipower 45 amp RV power converter I had salvaged from a burned motor home. ( this one - https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/power-converters/pd9100-series-rv-power-converters/pd9145a-45-amp-electronic-power-converter/ )
Trying to start a John Deere riding mower. In a hurry...how many stories have THAT line..  :lol
The 20A was not enough, and i had the intellipower charging my spare gate battery nearby. Brought it over, connected it to the lawn tractor with the 20A charger and *snap* got one spark and no more 12V power from the  intellipower. The two fuses didnt blow, and no wiring released its 'magic smoke'. But the intellipower is now not charging. 

Thats where my reasoning came from. Not sure of the exact issue that blew the RV converter/charger, but it was in a 'two chargers on 110V mains on the same battery' situation. Must have been some sort of feedback loop formed.  (WH)

 In your scenario, no two charger power sources are the same. (Alternator is mechanical to 12V, Generator makes 110V to power the charger on board, and the solar is from panels/charge controller)

Should I find out exactly what fried in the Intellipower unit, I will report back. I still have it, but it hasnt had a post-mortem yet.

And if you want some reading on RV and off-grid solar / battery systems try: Handy Bob Solar (https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/)  He is a little well, opinionated, but he knows his stuff and not from reading about it either.

AWESOME link!  Thank you. I just got a screaming deal on 4 AGM batteries and was going to start research on the best way to utilize them.  tymote

Got 4 of these -- (http://www.surplusbattery.com/images2/overdrive_large.jpg)

Quote
Specs and Features:
Type: Group 31 AGM (Absorbed Glass Matt)
102 Ah , 12 V (1,224 Wh Capacity)
730 Cold Cranking Amp Rating
Dimensions (LxWxH): 13.42 in x 6.81 in x 8.40 in (9.21 including stud)
Weight: 69 lbs
Stud Terminal - .64 in Tall
Robust Plate Construction - A thick plate construction makes it more robust and resistant to the stresses encountered during deep discharge cycling. The unique plate design also prevents erosion of the active material which can occur during repeated discharge and recharge, resulting in longer cycle life.
Heavy-Duty Corrosion Resistant Grid - A sunburst array grid design is cast, not stamped, ensuring that no hairline fractures develop during the manufacturing process. The overall grid configuration is optimized to enhance current flow through the grid providing exceptional battery performance. The addition of side and bottom grid wires offer industry-leading vibration resistance.
High-Density Paste - The OverDrive AGM 31 is constructed with a high-density paste formulation precisely engineered to deliver outstanding performance. This high density paste formulation optimizes porosity development utilizing the active material more effectively resulting in longer life.
Rugged Polypropylene Case - Trojan's OverDrive AGM 31 battery is packaged in a thick walled, durable polypropylene case rigid enough to keep the internal components of the battery compressed. The rugged polypropylene case effectively protects the plates from damage caused by shock and vibration, and is resistant to oil, gasoline and other road chemicals.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 23, 2018, 09:00:22 am
And if you want some reading on RV and off-grid solar / battery systems try: Handy Bob Solar (https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/)  He is a little well, opinionated, but he knows his stuff and not from reading about it either.


2o2 I have to state again what a FANTASTIC link this is.  2o2

I have learned more in the past few hours than I thought possible. Probably saved me $$$. Not to mention the hair loss...  pyho

I am gonna click your 'Neighborly' button once an hour as I read the rest.  roflol
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 23, 2018, 10:36:50 am
I clicked and scanned through that "Handy Bob Solar" article.  That is a mountain of material to read through.

What really surprised me were the pictures further down in his article.

The tiniest of a shadow from a roof vent lid on a solar panel reduced it's output by 30%.
(https://handybobsolar.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/close-up-minus-2-5-amps.jpg?w=440&h=330&zoom=2)

A narrow band of a shadow from the a/c unit reduced it's output by 90%.
(https://handybobsolar.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/minus-6-4-amps.jpg?w=440&h=331&zoom=2)

It seems to me, unless you are monitoring shadows on your solar panels all the time, they are not doing much for you.  Maybe it's better to mount them to a stand on the ground so you can move them around to avoid every shadow as the sun passes overhead.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 23, 2018, 11:59:13 am
I clicked and scanned through that "Handy Bob Solar" article.  That is a mountain of material to read through.

What really surprised me were the pictures further down in his article.


It seems to me, unless you are monitoring shadows on your solar panels all the time, they are not doing much for you.  Maybe it's better to mount them to a stand on the ground so you can move them around to avoid every shadow as the sun passes overhead.

He covers 'portable' panels also, and does not approve. 

I think I have a 'shadow free zone' forward of the AC on the roof.  Parking correctly will certainly affect this also.

I bet I have 2 hrs of reading on this blog. AWESOME information.

I do wish I had (4) 6V AGM batteries, it would give me a ~450Ah pack instead of the ~400 Ah pack I will get with the 12V I have now. I still have to do my math and see if that is a 'practical' size also. I have the room.

The 12V batteries were $50 each however...  ;)  I will worry about 6V replacements when the time comes.
  I am able to make a rack without a slideout also now that regular maintenance has been eliminated.   :-D

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: fandj on January 23, 2018, 05:11:10 pm
General “rule of thumb “ for solar panels is about 1 to 1.5 Watts of panel output per amp hour of battery capacity or for your 400 ah battery bank about 400 - 600 watt panel output.  The more marginal the available sun the more solar panel output the better.  I have two 160 watt panels connected to 220 ah battery bank.  During high sun angle summer condition it works well.  Near winter time sun angles I could probably use more panels.  Fortunately my winter camping is to campgrounds with electrical hookup so panel capacity is not an issue.

If your panels are connected in parallel a small amount of shade on one panels stops it’s output but the non shaded panel continues unaffected.  In series connection shade on one panel cuts the output of the full solar array.

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 23, 2018, 09:11:00 pm
When you get done with Handy Bob try Dan Mayer (http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm)  I really wish these guys would figure out you can use paragraphs when you write stuff.  But I guess we are not interested in their writing skills, only their knowledge of solar / off grid / RV electrical systems. :)
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 24, 2018, 09:17:39 am
When you get done with Handy Bob try Dan Mayer (http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm)  I really wish these guys would figure out you can use paragraphs when you write stuff.  But I guess we are not interested in their writing skills, only their knowledge of solar / off grid / RV electrical systems. :)

You are the reason for my lack of productivity at work lately...   roflol   I just read the last of Bobs material this morning.

General “rule of thumb “ for solar panels is about 1 to 1.5 Watts of panel output per amp hour of battery capacity or for your 400 ah battery bank about 400 - 600 watt panel output. 


 tymote  Gives me a good starting point.  My 'baseline' for battery powering the coach right now is a group 31 starting battery that is undercharged... so I am expecting to be very pleased with a real deep cycle battery pack.

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: dickreid1 on January 24, 2018, 02:32:25 pm
Trickle charger.
Let me add one more story about using one to keep the engine battery charged when hooked up. 

Never had a problem with the previous coach during five years.  However, the Ford battery clamps are not made of lead, rather zinc coated copper.  By the second year the zinc wore through and exposed the copper.  Evidently the lead-to-copper difference in potential caused severe erosion of the lead posts enough so that the poor contact could not supply enough current to start the engine.  A replacement battery suffered the same severe lead erosion problem from bare copper in a matter of months.

The current solution is replacing the copper clamp with a conventional lead clamp.  Also when in storage, the engine battery is disconnected before connecting the Battery Minder trickle charger.

Charging switch.
Let me add that Kermit said that the internal wiring is not heavy enough to use for starting the engine.  Safety issue. After one starting problem where the “hold the switch” did not help, we now carry jumpers that reach from the coach batteries.

6 volt batteries.
The current battery tray nicely fits for 6 volt batteries.  The 2012 vintage tray that they put for me is slightly too small so I must continue to use 12 volt batteries.  Check before you buy.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: donc13 on January 24, 2018, 10:21:26 pm
I clicked and scanned through that "Handy Bob Solar" article.  That is a mountain of material to read through.

What really surprised me were the pictures further down in his article.


It seems to me, unless you are monitoring shadows on your solar panels all the time, they are not doing much for you.  Maybe it's better to mount them to a stand on the ground so you can move them around to avoid every shadow as the sun passes overhead.

He covers 'portable' panels also, and does not approve. 

I think I have a 'shadow free zone' forward of the AC on the roof.  Parking correctly will certainly affect this also.

I bet I have 2 hrs of reading on this blog. AWESOME information.

I do wish I had (4) 6V AGM batteries, it would give me a ~450Ah pack instead of the ~400 Ah pack I will get with the 12V I have now. I still have to do my math and see if that is a 'practical' size also. I have the room.

The 12V batteries were $50 each however...  ;)  I will worry about 6V replacements when the time comes.
  I am able to make a rack without a slideout also now that regular maintenance has been eliminated.   :-D



What kind of 6v batteries are showing 450AHrs?  Never heard of such a golf cart battery.   Remember... 2 6v batteries in series double the Voltage (to 12v) but the AmpHour rating stays the same.   For example, the original Interstate 6v,225AHr batteries that came with the PC when in series gave me 12v @ 225AHr

Now putying batteries in parallel does double the Amp Hour ratinh but not the voltage... So those same 2 batteries in parallel would give 6v @ 450 AHrs.

Yes, 4 of those batteries in a serial/parallel configuration would give you 12v @ 450AHrs
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 25, 2018, 04:58:25 am


I do wish I had (4) 6V AGM batteries, it would give me a ~450Ah pack instead of the ~400 Ah pack I will get with the 12V I have now.



What kind of 6v batteries are showing 450AHrs? 
..............................................................................................

Yes, 4 of those batteries in a serial/parallel configuration would give you 12v @ 450AHrs

 :lol  Looks like you figured out the answer. I edited the quotes to show relevant parts.




But of course i had to google it... and they get the 450+ Ah rating using the 100 hour rate NOT 20.. Rated Capacity (20 Hour Rate) -375 Ah.  And significant work would be needed to get 6 in an old Club Car..   roflol

Quote
The new Surrette Rolls S-480 is an improved 6-Volt deep cycle battery with 486 Amp Hour capacity at 100 hour rate. It features thick, positive plates and large liquid reserve for high cycles. The container is built with a lightweight and strong container with integrated rope handles.



(http://webosolar.com/store/1001-thickbox_default/surrette-s-480-ah-6-volt-deep-cycle-battery.jpg)

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 25, 2018, 10:16:17 am
Volkemon,

You are breaking new ground in the PC world.  I do not know anyone who has exceeded two house batteries.  It will be interesting to see what you come up with.

Given our camping style, we too needed to make some changes to improve our on-board power capacity and the regeneration of it.  These relatively simple (easy to implement) changes improved energy immensely with our typical two battery provision.  I am sure more can be done.

1) Turn on the inverter ONLY when 110v is needed.  Otherwise leave it off.
2) Turn on the generator for high-energy use, short time items, like making a pot of coffee.
3) When on battery power, watch TV in the bedroom on the low-power TV powered by the inverter.  When on shore power, enjoy the main TV.
4) Changing from two 12V liquid acid batteries, to two-6V AGM batteries.
5) Changing all lighting from florescent and incandescent lighting, to LED lighting
7) Adding a volt meter in plain sight to keep battery condition "in my face".
8) Don't let the voltage get below 12.1V.  Run the generator as needed to charge the batteries.  I prefer to use a more efficient external charger to reduce generator run times, but I'll let the on-board charger do the job if it's raining badly.

One other easy power saver comes to mind, but not yet implemented.  Not so long ago, when edge lit LED TV technology arrived, I learned that some smaller LED TVs sold in stores already run on 12V-14V.  They use an external transformer in the power cord to convert from 110V to 12V-14V.  All you need to do for the installation into your PC is, cut off the transformer and wire the remaining cord direct into 12V.  Not only does the TV use less energy, but you don't need to turn on the inverter.  Keep in-mind that a DVD/Blu-Ray player and surround system still requires 110V.  So the results will vary pending the use of the sound system and entertainment source.  Roof antenna or cable TV input with a 12V TV will yield best results.  The key is to keep the inverter "off" to save more energy.

I especially like to use the inverter when we are spending much of the day traveling.  We can get sloppy with power usage because the Ford-V10 engine regenerates everything so well.  But once at a destination without shore power, and spending our days out in the tow vehicle sightseeing and hiking, we immediately change over to the conservative method.

I hope never needing four house batteries.  The topic on solar panels is fascinating as well, but I don't think they are for us.  But one thing in life I learned.....never say never.  In the mean time, I thank you and the others for the interesting reading material.

Ron Dittmer
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 28, 2018, 01:24:14 pm
Ron, it was your posts and advice that impressed me from the day I found this forum, so  tymote.


Volkemon,

You are breaking new ground in the PC world.  I do not know anyone who has exceeded two house batteries.  It will be interesting to see what you come up with.


Given our camping style, we too needed to make some changes to improve our on-board power capacity and the regeneration of it.  These relatively simple (easy to implement) changes improved energy immensely with our typical two battery provision.  I am sure more can be done.

1) Turn on the inverter ONLY when 110v is needed.  Otherwise leave it off.
Gotcha. 
2) Turn on the generator for high-energy use, short time items, like making a pot of coffee.
Pattie has a maker for the stove. I dont drink it. When festival camping, I found the 1500W inverter with a 'Mr Coffee' did fine on two 6V golf cart batteries for days. 
3) When on battery power, watch TV in the bedroom on the low-power TV powered by the inverter.  When on shore power, enjoy the main TV.
We have yet to turn on the TV... :lol not big watchers.
4) Changing from two 12V liquid acid batteries, to two-6V AGM batteries.
I wish I had (4) 6V AGM instead of the (4) 12V AGM, maybe on replacement. 
5) Changing all lighting from florescent and incandescent lighting, to LED lighting
Working on that. See my LED floor lights on the REflooring thread. :) 
7) Adding a volt meter in plain sight to keep battery condition "in my face".
Indeed, I am gonna spring for a battery monitor system. 
8) Don't let the voltage get below 12.1V.  Run the generator as needed to charge the batteries.  I prefer to use a more efficient external charger to reduce generator run times, but I'll let the on-board charger do the job if it's raining badly.
My recharge rate on the pack is still being determined, but it appears that AGM batteries can take a high charge rate. I am going to max it out with a charger that runs off its own shore power input or the generator. Hopefully make best use of generator 'on' time. 

One other easy power saver comes to mind, but not yet implemented.  Not so long ago, when edge lit LED TV technology arrived, I learned that some smaller LED TVs sold in stores already run on 12V-14V.  They use an external transformer in the power cord to convert from 110V to 12V-14V.  All you need to do for the installation into your PC is, cut off the transformer and wire the remaining cord direct into 12V.  Not only does the TV use less energy, but you don't need to turn on the inverter.  Keep in-mind that a DVD/Blu-Ray player and surround system still requires 110V.  So the results will vary pending the use of the sound system and entertainment source.  Roof antenna or cable TV input with a 12V TV will yield best results.  The key is to keep the inverter "off" to save more energy.


I especially like to use the inverter when we are spending much of the day traveling.  We can get sloppy with power usage because the Ford-V10 engine regenerates everything so well.  But once at a destination without shore power, and spending our days out in the tow vehicle sightseeing and hiking, we immediately change over to the conservative method.


 2o2

I hope never needing four house batteries.  The topic on solar panels is fascinating as well, but I don't think they are for us.  But one thing in life I learned.....never say never.  In the mean time, I thank you and the others for the interesting reading material.

The solar idea is cool, and 'on the table'. But for now the $$ will be spent on installing the pack, inverters, and HD charger for use from the generator/shore power.  The stock charger currently onboard is not 'proper' for AGM. 

Ron Dittmer

Stay Tuned!  I will try to keep it interesting.  roflol 


Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 28, 2018, 09:20:42 pm
Maybe I missed it @volkemon but where are you putting 4 batteries?  I asked for four when my coach was built and I was told it was not possible, no room.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jimmer on January 28, 2018, 09:43:27 pm
Hi Volkemon,    just wondering if you ever resolved the issue of your house battery(s) not being recharged from the engine alternator ?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 28, 2018, 10:56:21 pm
Maybe I missed it @volkemon but where are you putting 4 batteries?  I asked for four when my coach was built and I was told it was not possible, no room.
Hi jatrax,

Volkemon just might be placing a pair of batteries on each side of the entry door.  He had his sight on the under-floor space forward of the entry door, under the floor where a Euro chair would typically be today, maybe with access from a hatch through the floor.  He may also be considering the under-floor blank space rearward on his 2006 entry door, making it the same battery compartment as most everyone else.  All parts should be available from Phoenix to convert his 2006 under-floor blank space to the current-day twin battery compartment.  Remember that two batteries in a drawer below the floor was introduced mid-year 2006 as an option, and became standard starting in 2007.  His 2006 has a single battery in a drawer under the main 2350 closet, just rear of the fridge.

Volkemon, Did I get it right?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 29, 2018, 06:19:03 am
Maybe I missed it @volkemon but where are you putting 4 batteries?  I asked for four when my coach was built and I was told it was not possible, no room.

If you go to the RE-flooring thread, I show where I installed 7 carriage bolts through the floor forward of the side door, behind the passenger seat. It will be a tight fit, and 'jack access' for the batteries. No sliding tray. Thats why the AGM batteries were so nice, it allows me a 'set and forget' option. Regular FLA (flooded lead acid) need the water checked regularly. Being able to hide the batteries and not have ready access is a big part of being able to fit four in there. Still might be too tight, I have not done the final measuring and setup. Might be only 3....but I hope for four.

Hi Volkemon,    just wondering if you ever resolved the issue of your house battery(s) not being recharged from the engine alternator ?

Not yet. I have been spending all the free work time getting the floors done. I hope to be addressing that issue and the battery install this week and weekend.

 


Volkemon just might be placing a pair of batteries on each side of the entry door.  He had his sight on the under-floor space forward of the entry door, under the floor where a Euro chair would typically be today, maybe with access from a hatch through the floor.

Volkemon, Did I get it right?

 roflol  Sure did, probably even helped me. Again.  tymote I had not thought of getting the factory parts to install a sliding tray... Thats a FINE idea. If I cant fit four batteries in front, I may consider it. I really like getting the weight as far forward as possible, however.

I had my heart set on installing a small vacuum setup that would allow a 'toe kick' outlet at the base of the sink for sweep-ups, and a 10 foot hose for cleaning. It would fit in that area where the factory put the batteries. Pretty low on the project list, however. Unless Mrs V reads this thread and bumps it up.  :lol

toe kick - Kick it with your toe and it opens, and turns on the vacuum. Kick again to close and turn off. VERY handy.

(http://www.alldataresource.com/assets/images/NUT-CI365W.jpg)



I will be on the batteries next. Pictures to come!   :)(:

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 29, 2018, 09:04:36 am
4 batteries hanging under the coach, forward of the main entry door will be a pretty tight fit.  And they will be extremely heavy to lift together in a container.  They could weigh over 300 pounds.  When I converted from two 12V to two 6V AGMs, I was surprised how much heavier the new 6V batteries were compared to the 12Vs.

If, and only IF you later decide to convert the under-floor space rear of the main entry door to a battery compartment......keep these things in-mind.

- If you don't need a slide out battery drawer, DON'T get one.  The drawer requires a few more inches of height.  The best thing I did was to delete the drawer and set the taller mainenance-free 6V batteries on a plate that rests on the bottom of the frame.  With the old 12V wet acid batteries, pulling them out with the drawer along with the battery splash shield I added HERE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/albums/72157622075091526) in combination was never ideal for me....just better than no shield at all.  Deleting the drawer while adding the battery shield is a perfect combination as long as your batteries are maintenance-free.

- This next comment requires confirmation from other people.  I think Phoenix makes two frame heights, the 6V frame hangs farther below the battery door than the 12V frame.  Get the framing from Phoenix that was originally designed for 12V batteries.  Without the drawer, the 6V batteries fit just right in the 12V frame as seen HERE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/albums/72157682845982114).  Note how the 12V battery frame is exposed just a few inches.  I think the 6V frame hangs down a few inches more.  Maybe someone with a 6V battery compartment with a drawer will confirm or correct me.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: donc13 on January 29, 2018, 09:18:05 am


I do wish I had (4) 6V AGM batteries, it would give me a ~450Ah pack instead of the ~400 Ah pack I will get with the 12V I have now.



What kind of 6v batteries are showing 450AHrs? 
..............................................................................................

Yes, 4 of those batteries in a serial/parallel configuration would give you 12v @ 450AHrs

 :lol  Looks like you figured out the answer. I edited the quotes to show relevant parts.




But of course i had to google it... and they get the 450+ Ah rating using the 100 hour rate NOT 20.. Rated Capacity (20 Hour Rate) -375 Ah.  And significant work would be needed to get 6 in an old Club Car..   roflol

Quote
The new Surrette Rolls S-480 is an improved 6-Volt deep cycle battery with 486 Amp Hour capacity at 100 hour rate. It features thick, positive plates and large liquid reserve for high cycles. The container is built with a lightweight and strong container with integrated rope handles.



(http://webosolar.com/store/1001-thickbox_default/surrette-s-480-ah-6-volt-deep-cycle-battery.jpg)



Your 16" high battery (the Rolls) isn't going to fit anywhere reasonable on a PC, let alone 4 of them plus they weigh about 120lbs each wet.

You might as welk specify diesel submarine batteries.

Your 4 Trojan batterirs will give you 204 AHrs at 12v.

My two Lifeline  GPL-4CT 6v AGM batteries give me 220 AHrs @ 12v.  Of course they cost more... $600 for 2 of them but well worth it since the fit the battery tray.  No need to McGuyver anything.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 29, 2018, 01:26:25 pm

Your 16" high battery (the Rolls) isn't going to fit anywhere reasonable on a PC, let alone 4 of them plus they weigh about 120lbs each wet.

You might as welk specify diesel submarine batteries.

Your 4 Trojan batterirs will give you 204 AHrs at 12v.

My two Lifeline  GPL-4CT 6v AGM batteries give me 220 AHrs @ 12v.  Of course they cost more... $600 for 2 of them but well worth it since the fit the battery tray.  No need to McGuyver anything.

Oh I know the big batteries were not practical. That was my poor attempt at humor saying it would take a LOT of work to fit in an old Club Car..  :-D I was just curious if there was such a beast.

Unfortunately, in my 2006 the only factory option is (1) group 31, high up and in the back over the rear axle. I think even the optional tray (just in front of the right rear tire) had to be modified to take (2) 6V , Ron has a good post on how he did that.

So... being that I have to design my own tray, go big, right? And put it as close to the front as possible.  2o2

Correct my math if its wrong, but I will have (4) 102AH 12V batteries in parallel - Wont that give me a 408 AH pack? If I had gone the 6V route, it would be 440AH.

I guess if you keep it above 50% discharge there only is 204AH 'usable'. But then yours has only 220AH usable also.  (WH)

But, as you state the 6V AGM would have run me $1200 for four. ($600 for two, times two)  :beg  I got the (4) 12V AGM for a little over $200 out of pocket. Yes, a sweetheart deal from our battery supplier.  heartshower
 
I will size the tray to allow 6V also, so when replacement time comes it will be on the table. Cant wait to get home tonight and get under the coach with a tape measure.


To charge this pack in a reasonable time off the generator, I am looking into an IOTA DLS-90-IRQ4  ( https://www.amazon.com/DLS-90-AUTOMATIC-BATTERY-CHARGER-SUPPLY/dp/B0074JVP2C ) I have been on the phone with the factory, and they say they should be able to modify the charging profile to match the Trojan AGM's I have. As delivered, the bulk rate is just a little too high according to Trojan spec's.

Battery monitor will be HandyBob's favorite... Trimetric TM-2030-RV Battery Monitor System. https://www.solar-electric.com/bogart-engineering-tm-2030-rv-battery-monitor.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiZ7PmeT92AIVFBuBCh1e4wQUEAQYASABEgIgJvD_BwE


Both together should be a dynamic pair, and ensure long battery life. Also has me 'poised' for adding solar, as the Trimetric 'talks' to the solar charge controller.  :)


Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 30, 2018, 11:11:43 am
Well, spent an hour in the driveway looking up and measuring... I think it will work.  2o2  The gas tank, tailpipe, generator exhaust and muffler all hang 18 inches down from the floor. I am using this as my 'bottom limit' to extend the battery carrier down.

This allows me to mount all four batteries in that area behind the passenger door and in front of the coach door.  (cheer) (cheer) (cheer) (cheer)   Three will be sideways, which has been OK'd by Trojan and my battery supplier.

The seven bolts I installed before the floor are in acceptable positions, and I can add two more under the trim between the cab and coach area. (9) 3/8" bolts should be MORE than plenty to support ~300 pounds of battery and mount.

 Tonights plan is to track down why the motor does not charge the coach battery. (gotten a couple clues here - THANKS folks!! )  Like Ron did, I will most likely have the inverter mounted in the former battery box on the left side. I should be able to backfeed through the supply wiring to charge the pack from the alternator using the stock wire. It's 10ga, and maybe 20 feet long, so at a 5% drop not good for much more than 10 amps.  :beg  (using this handy sizing tool, and using 6 meters for 20 feet - http://www.solar-wind.co.uk/cable-sizing-DC-cables.html)

Might consider running a heavier wire to the pack, and leave the original for future use.  :-D
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 30, 2018, 12:24:31 pm
This allows me to mount all four batteries in that area behind the passenger door and in front of the coach door.
That space for batteries is ideal for general weight distribution.

After you are 100% complete with your PC, load it up with gasoline, propane, fresh water, your clothes, gear, cookware, and food (as if ready to leave home for a trip), along with suspension improvements like heavy duty stabilizer bars and such, really really 100% complete, then add weight behind the driver and passenger as best you can to reflect you and your wife's weight.  Then get a wheel alignment at a truck suspension shop.  Assumed you will be like us, the alignment technician will install offset bushings to get the alignment right.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 30, 2018, 12:55:53 pm
I'm sure the 2350 is different than my 2552 but it might be a good idea to get the truck weighed on all 4 corners before deciding on the battery location. 

On my 2552 at last weigh I was 4,850 on the front axle and 8,500 on the rear.  That is fully loaded but with no water on board.  A full tank of water puts me close to 8,900 on the rear.  Gawr is 5,000 front and 9,600 on rear on my 2017 E450.

I'm within 150 pounds of max with just me and the wife sitting up front.  Fortunately the front has fewer variables than the rear so that is not likely to change too much.  But dropping 300 pounds of batteries up front would be a concern for my rig.

Just food for thought.  (WH)
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 30, 2018, 04:12:54 pm
Hi jatrax,

The older 2350s are rear-heavy/ front-light given the 158" wheel base and large rear over-hang.  This picture is our no-slide 2350 weighed empty but did have a full tank of gas and propane.  I jumped out before the weigh-in.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/767/21657658075_bee33d8e64_z.jpg)

Here was our no-slide 2350 loaded up on a trip carrying lots of extra supplies including crates of fresh water, Irene and me.  Interesting is that with all the weight added, only 100 pounds was added to the front axle.  And I did my best to bring as much weight forward as possible.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5753/20722978381_f4d5f27779_z.jpg)

Here is the PC sticker.  46 gallons of fresh water considers the hot water tank.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/760/21489152320_a85cba9500_z.jpg)

Volkemon and me with our 41 gallon fresh water tanks sitting lengthwise against the rear wall, makes the condition as bad as possible.  The fresh water weight lightens the front axle via the teeter-totter effect.  But all is not bad because it also makes the largest outdoor storage compartment in the history of the Phoenix Cruiser.  We keep light-weight bulk in there as not to worsen the condition.  Our weight distribution between axles is nowhere near as good as your 2552, but it works okay with the suspension upgrades I had done.  I would think the weight distribution on a 2552 is the best of PC models.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 30, 2018, 04:47:46 pm
Thanks for the info Ron.  I assumed there was a difference in the units, but always best to check.  I know there is no way I could add 300 pounds on my front end.  Glad it will work on the 2350, might even help with the weight distribution.

Is that on an E350 or E450?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 30, 2018, 05:12:15 pm
Thanks for the info Ron.  I assumed there was a difference in the units, but always best to check.  I know there is no way I could add 300 pounds on my front end.  Glad it will work on the 2350, might even help with the weight distribution.

Is that on an E350 or E450?
Yes, I think it will help with weight distribution.  Not just an E350, but the earlier E350 with the lesser 11,500 GVWR.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on January 31, 2018, 10:31:54 am
Thanks for the info, Ron! 


I will have to scale my rig also, as it has a slideout. (it's a birth defect... came with it..  :lol )  I would like to find someone with 4 scales that would handle the weight, as a side to side reading would be handy. Why?

The left (drivers) side of my rig is DEFINITELY heavier than the right. When I did the front brakes I could feel the difference jacking up the sides. Parked on a smooth level surface that side is low.  No wonder, as the generator, slideout, LP tank and coach battery are all on that side. Fridge too.   Not much for major weight on the right (passenger) side to balance it out. Thats why I am looking forward to putting the battery bank there, and also why I had no interest in putting a chair back behind the passenger seat. That area will be used for heavy cargo.

Thanks also Jatrax, I would have NEVER guessed that the front axle weight would be within 150 pounds like you found.  :beg   I best get this battery bank in, and get scaled. Operating in ignorance could be a life changing choice.  >8)

With that thought fresh in my mind..... I drove the coach to work today, so I just went and measured the (future) battery pack location. The area the batteries are going in is 1/2 way between the front and rear axle, almost perfectly centered. I would not have guessed that!!  Slightly biased to the rear weight-wise, as I am stacking 2 batteries. So the weight will be essentially evenly distributed between the axles. So will my heavy cargo. But both will be low and 'helping' the light side.  2o2

I am SO hoping to get some welding time on the battery support this weekend. Probably steel, but aluminum is being considered.

Thanks again for the input. 'Neighborly' points givin.  tymote

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 31, 2018, 11:02:11 am
In Oregon they leave the roadside scales on all the time.  I am lucky to have a weigh station about 3 miles from the house.  I wait until they are closed for the day, or go on a weekend.  The large platform scale is designed for tractor trailers so it is really easy to get a corner weight on my rig.

Takes some positioning to get just one wheel at a time on the scale but with a little help from a spotter easy to do.  Looks a little strange though.

Since I pass the scale going almost anywhere I usually weigh the rig every time we go out.  Unless they are open of course.  I expect they would be happy to weigh me anyway but I hate bothering them when they are working.  I just weigh each axle and then the toad when we are going someplace.  All four corners is a bit more trouble and best done when when no one is around to watch and laugh.  :-D
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on January 31, 2018, 06:04:07 pm
I’m really unknowing in all this so bare with me if my question seems dumb, as it probably is. Why is it so important to never let my batteries go below 12.1?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on January 31, 2018, 06:18:22 pm
Jatrax, I’ve only weighed my rig once. I had it loaded heavier than we ever typically do, full tanks , even cases of wine for our trip. All on purpose of course so I would know under typical trips if I ever had anything to be concerned about. I had plenty of room for more weight when said and done and I’ve never loaded that much again so I haven’t been concerned. I’m sure if I loaded as heavy every time as my test load I’d check in more often but in my case I don’t have the need. 

I did not weigh all corners individually. We never had a need on any of the farm equipment and they held up fine. I’ve yet to see a big rig operator worry about individual corner weights and they run their rigs hundreds of thousands of miles more than I will ever see.

I’ve noticed here in Ca the scales being left on as well when not maned but I’ve never used them. The cat scales were pretty reasonable so I called it good enough.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 31, 2018, 06:28:52 pm
Quote
I did not weigh all corners individually. We never had a need on any of the farm equipment and they held up fine.
LOL.  Well we never weighed any of the farm equipment either, which was probably a good idea. :)  A set of 4 bottom roll-over mouldboards definitely squashed the tires when you lifted at the end of the strip.

I've only weighed all 4 corners once, just to check that left / right weight was within reason.  It was, so no need to repeat that.  But I strongly suggest new owners do that at least once just to be sure they know how the coach is loaded.

I definitely have no need to re-weigh all the time, our load out is mostly the same each trip.  However, I get a kick out of getting some of my tax money back by using 'my' scales.  :)  And the weigh station is about three miles from the house and has a nice wide flat pull off.  I always stop for a final check on the tires, lug nuts, toad and whatever else might be left undone.  Probably not needed but it is a nice spot to stop and I feel better doing it.  And since the scale is there I just drive over it slow while the wife writes down the axle weights.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 31, 2018, 06:34:56 pm
Quote
I’m really unknowing in all this so bare with me if my question seems dumb, as it probably is. Why is it so important to never let my batteries go below 12.1?
Full charge on a 12 volt battery is about 12.6 volts.  12.1 volts is about 50% charge.  A standard lead acid battery should never be allowed to go below 50% charge.  Each time doing that hurts its ability to fully recharge.  Do it too often and the battery will fail to hold a complete charge.  So the rule of thumb for those with in coach volt meters is to watch the voltage and recharge if getting close to 12.1 volts.  If you have a energy management system like the Bogart Trimetric 2030 (http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics.html) you can watch that instead for a much more accurate reading.  But watching the voltage and staying above 12.1 will help.

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 31, 2018, 06:37:23 pm
I’m really unknowing in all this so bare with me if my question seems dumb, as it probably is. Why is it so important to never let my batteries go below 12.1?
The simple answer is because everyone says so.  :)

You do ask a very good question.  I am no expert, but from what I gather, the battery gets damaged when you get below 12.1 volts.  If you drained it one time down to 11.9V, I doubt you would do significant permanent harm, but doing so repeatedly is something else.  With each incident, a full charge is less full than the time prior.

I have learned to be anal about that 12.1V number.  Draining to no less than 12.1V is working well for us.  But I don't wait until it gets to 12.1V.  Most often I charge at a higher voltage to avoid excessive generator run times.  If we plan to spend an evening inside, staying up late watching a movie and such, I will plan ahead and charge the batteries using a strong external 40 amp step charger with the generator, anticipating an extended drain in the evening.  FYI: Our on-board Tripp-Lite inverter/charger has a max of 20 amps hence using the 40 amp external charger to reduce generator run times.

Oh, I see jatrax commented just above me.  I like his reply.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on January 31, 2018, 07:31:34 pm
Thanks, I see where the 12.1 makes sense as basic guide. I only have 12 volt batteries in my unit and I install new batteries every year. I don’t dry camp a lot so I guess I wouldn’t need to worry too much about going under 12.1 now and then.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on January 31, 2018, 07:49:47 pm
Just curious but why do you install new batteries every year?  They should last 5 to 6 years with a little care.  Are they going bad?  If so something is wrong with your charging system.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on February 01, 2018, 12:59:19 am
They are never 100% after a year and they come with a one year warranty. So they offer new replacements.  Why wouldn’t I change them out; it only costs me the time I spend changing them out.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on February 01, 2018, 07:24:12 am
They are never 100% after a year and they come with a one year warranty. So they offer new replacements.  Why wouldn’t I change them out; it only costs me the time I spend changing them out.

Who is the vendor? I am guessing a big box store, as a smaller vendor could not afford that.

Our battery supplier also has a warranty, but the first thing that is done with warranty returns when they hit his shop is they get charged and tested, If they are OK, the shop returns them to you and tells you the problem is in your charging. We used Interstate battery before our present vendor, and their policy was the same.

Even with Autozone/O'Reileys/Advance Discount if you return a battery for warranty, the replacement is only covered for the duration of the original purchase .

Example - My co-worker has a 2005 Chevy Colorado that has regularly gone through a battery every 2.5 years since new. He buys a 3-yr replacement warranty battery, and they replace it once. I started working with him in 2010, and he had just gotten a free new replacement of the first battery he bought. (To replace the factory battery) In mid 2012, that one failed and they denied a free replacement.
He bought another, it lasted into 2015 when he got another free replacement. This last fall THAT one failed, and he was denied again for a freebee. The new one he bought should be the last, as he is expecting to replace the truck soon.


So... I guess enjoy the free battery train while it lasts.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on February 01, 2018, 09:48:09 am
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5622/22279376785_7197f16f59_z.jpg)

About the volt meter I installed in our PC.  It measures the voltage where I wired it into the stove hood monitor panel.  It is NOT measuring across the battery terminals.  When I turn on a light or two, the voltage doesn't change.  But if we turn on more things, the voltage drops a little.  When I turn off everything again, the voltage increases again.  So during a heavy-use evening the voltage can drop significantly.  Because I maintain the batteries well, it does not drop below 12.1V.  If memory serves me well, the drop is as much as 0.3 volts pending what we have running.

I should perform this experiment.
- Using a hand-held volt meter, measure the voltage across the two 6V batteries with everything off.
- Then turn on a bunch of stuff to get the voltage dropping significantly on the volt meter I installed.
- Then measure the voltage across the two 6V batteries again.
It would tell me if it is better to wire the volt meter across the batteries to avoid the fluctuating read-out.

To you with a serious battery monitor, do you see the same fluctuations I do with our simple volt meter?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on February 01, 2018, 10:14:33 am
Ron, a voltage drop when using any significant amount of battery power is normal.

The 'proper' test of battery voltage is:
- disconnect battery from any load
- charge battery fully
- wait at least 1 hour after charge complete
- test voltage

That will give you the only 'true' voltage.  You cannot get a true voltage when the battery is under load.  But that is really only for testing a suspect battery.  A volt meter in line as you have gives you an instant reading on the state of the battery relative to normal operations.  Which is all you need to tell how things are going.

But any load on the battery will pull the voltage down as long as it is present.  That is just how the lead - acid cycle works.

Other batteries, particularly Lithium have different load curves and their voltage will react differently to a load.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on February 01, 2018, 10:19:03 am
Quote
They are never 100% after a year and they come with a one year warranty. So they offer new replacements.  Why wouldn’t I change them out; it only costs me the time I spend changing them out.
Well, if you get a free one every year then I guess there isn't any reason to not change them out.

I was just concerned that something was wrong with your charger since under normal use you should get 3 to 5 years and with care perhaps 7 years on a battery.  Are you installing deep cycle batteries or just off the shelf 12 volt ones?
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Ron Dittmer on February 01, 2018, 10:28:31 am
Ron, a voltage drop when using any significant amount of battery power is normal.

The 'proper' test of battery voltage is:
- disconnect battery from any load
- charge battery fully
- wait at least 1 hour after charge complete
- test voltage

That will give you the only 'true' voltage.  You cannot get a true voltage when the battery is under load.  But that is really only for testing a suspect battery.  A volt meter in line as you have gives you an instant reading on the state of the battery relative to normal operations.  Which is all you need to tell how things are going.

But any load on the battery will pull the voltage down as long as it is present.  That is just how the lead - acid cycle works.

Other batteries, particularly Lithium have different load curves and their voltage will react differently to a load.
Thank you for the explanation jatrax!
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on February 02, 2018, 11:07:36 am
Sorry it took me so long to reply, I don’t get on here every day. Being retired I’m so busy I wonder how I ever had time to have a job. 

I buy my batteries at Costco. The batteries are 12 volt interstate deep cycle .  When asked about an extended warranty for batteries they tell you straight up bring them back before the one year dead line. They give you a full refund and you go back in and buy new. It costs Costco nothing as the manufacture takes them back. As the tech pointed out. He has never seen deep cycle batteries that hadn’t lost some reserve within that year.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on February 02, 2018, 11:44:12 am
Sorry it took me so long to reply, I don’t get on here every day. Being retired I’m so busy I wonder how I ever had time to have a job. 

I buy my batteries at Costco. When asked about an extended warranty for batteries they tell you straight up bring them back before the one year dead line. They give you a full refund and you go back in and buy new. It costs Costco nothing as the manufacture takes them back. As the tech pointed out. He has never seen deep cycle batteries that hadn’t lost some reserve within that year.

Ok!  Guess thats the way they roll.  Be interested to see the testing process the Tech puts the batteries through.

I would wonder if you really get 'brand new' batteries back. If this is standard operating procedure for them to tell people to do this, and the batteries are going back to the manufacturer... they probably get cleaned, tested, and put back into circulation. Or the manufacturer is cutting corners in many other places to allow for returns.  (nod) Nobody rides for free... and sh*t rolls downhill.

The paragraph above is personal conjecture and opinion, NOT fact. Hypothetical musings.  Just my .02, and hardly worth that to most.  :lol 
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on February 02, 2018, 05:45:41 pm
Volkemon..   you don’t swap them out. You take the batteries to the return desk just like you would a jar of pickles you didn’t like or a shirt that doesn’t fit right. They refund your money and you go shop, be it to go buy new batteries or spend the money on something else.  So if I go buy new batteries I’m pulling them off the shelf same as anyone else.  They can’t sell them as remanufactured unless they list them as such.  The brand they sell is interstate. I’m guessing they are up to par with most brands.

Keep in mind this is their policy, nothing mischievous on my end. IE; I bought a thousand dollar BBQ drop in with their so called 99 year warranty. I’d had it for 5 + years and the igniters started going out. I looked up the part number and took the igniters in to obtain new ones even if they weren’t covered under the warranty. Their response was I needed to return the entire unit for a full refund. I told them I like the unit, I just need new igniters and was willing to pay for them.  Nope, I had to return the BBQ and they gave me back all my money, even after over 5 years of use. I went back in the store bought the replacement which had some nice upgrades over my old one and cost me the exact same amount.  Also I had moved since I had purchased the original bbq so I was returning it to a diff store 125 miles from where I purchased it.


Costco makes out fine as well, it’s the manufacture that takes it back and being I live within a mile of a Costco I spend thousands there every year not counting gas which is the cheapest around and they give you 4 cents off per gallon using their credit card. I pay every month so never any interest and they give cash back the end of every year for other purchase. I typically get 450 to 600 back every year on items I always buy anyway.


Now when a manufacture sets up shop thru Costco they know the return policy. They also know their sales go thru the roof and the amount of returns is so minimal that they make bank.  Companies stand in line to have Costco sell their products. How do I know this, I know some people in companies that sell to Costco.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Dynadave on February 03, 2018, 09:09:18 am
Free batteries??? ? We are lucky everyone doesn't think that way.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on February 03, 2018, 02:42:42 pm
Dyna, so your saying I’m doing something wrong by accepting what they push?  I suppose you turn down free refills at your local resturant or mc Donald’s even though it cuts into their bottom line as well.  To each their own.

Do you buy from Amazon?   I do , even knowing they strong arm their suppliers into making smaller margins and taking returns as well.  Just like Costco.

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on February 04, 2018, 07:58:56 pm
Dyna, so your saying I’m doing something wrong by accepting what they push?  I suppose you turn down free refills at your local resturant or mc Donald’s even though it cuts into their bottom line as well.  To each their own.

Do you buy from Amazon?   I do , even knowing they strong arm their suppliers into making smaller margins and taking returns as well.  Just like Costco.



Yeah... um.. free refills of my sweet tea at lunch is JUST like returning batteries. What you are doing is more like when I have a buddy working behind the counter dumping extra food in the bag. HE says its ok... must be Ok..


So far your source for warranty information on Costco Batteries is the salesperson. Wonder what corporate has to say?

At costco, the deep cycle batteries are considered 'Specialty Automotive Batteries' per this link - https://www.costco.com/automotive-batteries.html

Scroll down to the two tabs ' FAQ ' and ' Warranty and Returns'. Clicking on the "Warranty and Returns' tab reveals the terms of the Battery Warranty at Costco.

Free One Year return?

Quote
If a passenger car battery is used in a diesel vehicle (not including passenger automobiles), truck more than one ton, lawn tractor, snowmobile, or recreational, service or marine vehicle, etc., the limited warranty is reduced to a free-replacement period of six months or half the standard length of that battery.

Return it for ANY reason?

Quote
If there is a defect in material or workmanship (not merely the battery being discharged) this limited warranty provides that upon return of the battery to any Costco Wholesale warehouse, the battery will be replaced, at purchase price, excluding fees and taxes, and be refunded, according to the life of the battery warranty as stated on the battery label.

Hm.. You were returning yours just because 'new ones were better'. Not for either of the terms stated above. Just for natural aging of a battery - or as you stated
 ""  As the tech pointed out. He has never seen deep cycle batteries that hadn’t lost some reserve within that year. ""

Even 'The Tech' states that some degradation of a battery happens within a year. A natural progression of battery life, definitely influenced by the care the batteries receive. Not 'A defect in materials or workmanship'. No more than your tires tread wearing out with use is a defect in the rubber.  :lol

So yeah, some people might see what you are doing as 'wrong'. I hope you understand why this may be. And Please.. correct me if I am wrong. I have learned far more from being wrong than right.  (nod)






Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on February 05, 2018, 04:12:34 pm
One they are not car batteries,they are dc. But I’m not going to waste my breath. It’s not one tech, it’s every costco they can be returned to.  I asked at a second costco before buying if an extended warranty was available.  Received the same reply by their customer service desk. So yes, I stand by it. I refuse to shoot a gift horse.

Everyone lives in glass houses. Then again maybe your the one that doesn’t.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on February 06, 2018, 08:32:27 am
Sorry I was a bit harsh that last post... There might have been a beer or two consumed on Superbowl night.  :)(:

LOL... not sure what you mean by 'not car batteries, they are DC'. I am only familiar with DC batteries.

I stand by the statements posted. Find me a link with written terms of the return policy you are using, and I will gladly apologize and stand corrected.

We also have a Costco membership, I am going to ask for a written copy of their battery return policy next time we are there. Be interesting to see their response.







Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on February 06, 2018, 10:30:46 am
Sorry, dc meaning deep cycle .      So your under the thought that your batteries still work as new after a year?   Mine never have.  As long as they offer warranty returns for items that have not met given expectations I will use it and stand by that. IE , buying flowers that cost me around 70 dollars which is about the same as a battery. On the morning of the 4th day they were toast. Now many will say we had three days of enjoyment and they were going to die anyway and would never return them. I did as they’d  led me to believe they would last much longer.  And the shop agreed with me that they did not meet expectations.

Most people never use warranties or return policies and that’s ok. I look for every offer and expect them to back it. Most people don’t even look at warranties on products they buy. IE Ridgid offers lifetime on their power tools including batteries. BUT you have to register each item. I do and I’ve gotten replacement batteries for my drill. Most wouldn’t bother. Lowes offered me an extended warranty on a gas leaf blower for around 9 bucks. The manufactuer had a special offering free extended warranty if registered within so long etc. in the end I got a 7 year full replacement warranty on something that gets heavy use and will be lucky to last 4 to 5 years. So I know I’ll get all my money back or a new unit. A friend bought the same unit after seeing mine didn’t follow the guide lines and ended up with a 2 year .  He doesn’t care either as he’d never return it.  I’m that odd duck that will.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on February 06, 2018, 12:42:48 pm
Deep Cycle.. duh. Yeah, I was dense on that one. D'oH! Been studying a lot on wiring lately.


And no, I never stated that 1 YO batteries would be working 'as new' after a yeah. Actually, I think I posted the opposite didnt I?  (nod)

I Do agree 100% with your opinions on warranties and returns. As you can imagine, I am one that reads the warranty like you do. :)

The flowers were an interesting take.. I put ~$50 a week buying bulk and doing our house and two offices. Fresh bulk, yeah I would expect a good week for life, generally speaking. For a $70 made to order bouquet I would expect similar. The pre-mades from the bin.... lucky to get three days.  :lol

But still the fact stands - returning batteries to Costco after a year just because the employees let you... Enjoy it while it lasts I guess.  I would like to see *ANYTHING* written from the company to endorse that policy. Still doesn't seem right, and it isn't from what I find.

Gonna let it go. Beverage?  :)(: Hope we can still camp together someday.    
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on February 06, 2018, 02:31:20 pm
Volt.  Of course, I’m not offended or upset. I’m old with thick skin. I’ll buy the first round
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: CalCruiser on February 06, 2018, 04:01:35 pm
Solar trickle charger/battery maintainer question

What's the optimum (unregulated) solar trickle  charger wattage needed to effectively maintain a fully charged 850 CCA main (starter) battery? For comparison, an  AC powered Battery Tender is rated at 9W regulated output (12v  x .75A).

I recently added a 3.5W Coleman/ Sunpower panel in addition to the 1.5W Chicago Electric /Harbor Freight panel that was NOT doing the job. By utilizing both  always-on cigarette lighter plugs in the dash  I can use the 2  panels in parallel  for  5W total charging output.  Both panels have blocking diodes to prevent nighttime drain and are generating 17.8v each in partial sunlight.  If 5W  proves to be insufficient  I could increase the total  to 7W by  replacing  the 1.5W panel with a 2nd 3.5W panel.





Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: jatrax on February 06, 2018, 07:51:15 pm
Not sure how useful this would be but I've read 5% per month of self-discharge.  After that you need to determine how much parasitic drain there is which an ammeter should be able to tell you.  Parasitic drain is things connected to the battery that even though they are turned off still draw some power. 

I don't think CCA is going to be much help, you would need to know how many amphours are in the battery then take 5% of that + the parasites then calculate how many watts that is.  Then you have some idea of what you would need to replace on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on February 07, 2018, 09:28:15 am
Solar trickle charger/battery maintainer question

What's the optimum (unregulated) solar trickle  charger wattage needed to effectively maintain a fully charged 850 CCA main (starter) battery? For comparison, an  AC powered Battery Tender is rated at 9W regulated output (12v  x .75A).

I recently added a 3.5W Coleman/ Sunpower panel in addition to the 1.5W Chicago Electric /Harbor Freight panel that was NOT doing the job. By utilizing both  always-on cigarette lighter plugs in the dash  I can use the 2  panels in parallel  for  5W total charging output.  Both panels have blocking diodes to prevent nighttime drain and are generating 17.8v each in partial sunlight.  If 5W  proves to be insufficient  I could increase the total  to 7W by  replacing  the 1.5W panel with a 2nd 3.5W panel.



I work in a retirement community where MANY of the residents use their cars once a week, sometimes less. (Golf carts are used often in the community) Battery tenders are a necessity.  2o2 SO many parasitic drains on cars.

I have been researching solar, and it seems a 'charging day' is measured at ~5 hrs.  :beg  So to equal a 24/7 plugged in device, one would plan for 4-5 times the output from solar.

So.. if a 9 watt 120V trickle charger met your needs before, I would plan on at least 35 watts of solar to give the equivalent energy input each day. And thats on the 'low' side, 50 might be better.

9 watts x 24 hrs = 216 Wh  from a shore power trickle charger per day
35W x 5 hrs = 175 Wh from solar power per day
50W x 5 hrs = 250Wh per day with a 50W panel

Sure, an optimum location may yield more than 5 hrs of quality time solar charging... but it seems 'those in the know' use 5 hrs a day as an overall average. And also.. too small a panel leaves you with a dead battery. Slightly larger is not going to boil it over. 

I have a 2006 2350, I have yet to put the meter in line with the battery and see what the parasitic drain is. Once i do I will report back.

As far as battery self discharge..

Quote
The limiting factor of battery's shelf life is the rate of self-discharge which itself is temperature dependent. VRLA batteries will self-discharge less than 3% per month at 77º F (25º C). Flooded batteries will self-discharge up to 15% per month at 77º F (25º C
source - http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/faq/ scroll down to 'Maintenance' item 1- Shelf Life

Unfortunately, I could find no easy cross reference for CCA to Ah capacity. With my AGM batteries, it rates both, so lets assume a similar 'energy density' to yours for now. - I have 875 CCA at 32*, and 1340Wh of 'power' contained. At a Flooded battery 'maximum' self discharge rate of 15%, it would need ~200Wh a month, or ~7 Wh each day.  But that is kinda 'shooting in the dark' with several assumptions...

With any car/truck newer than ~2000, i would think parasitic drains are a bigger concern than the self discharge. But until I measure...its all educated guessing.  :lol
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on February 07, 2018, 10:33:13 am
Test Subject - 2006 E350 model 2350 camper. Stock radio, no power locks, keypad entry or security system. Disconnected start battery from house battery feed.

OK, put an amp meter in line with the battery negative. Initial drain showed was .5A on connection, dropped to .2A continuous. Opening the doors and turning on courtesy lights drew 2.9A , once they timed out it dropped to .2A again.

So.. .2A x 12V = 2.4W  drain measured.  Over 24Hrs, that would be 57.6 Wh per day. Using the 5hr 'solar charging day' standard i would need a 12 Watt panel minimum to keep charge up .

Corrections welcome!   :-D
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: fandj on February 07, 2018, 04:54:50 pm
With an unregulated solar system one would need to be careful to not oversize the panel(s) as the maximum panel voltage could excessively charge the starting battery and/or damage the chassis electrical system.

A regulated system limits the maximum voltage that can be supplied to the battery.  One of the forum members (keelhauler) modified the dash mounted battery switch to allow his main solar panels to maintain charge on both the coach and chassis batteries. You could search and find his post if this is something you are interested in. 

Most regulated solar controller limit output voltage to 15.0 or less in order to prevent damage to appliance control boards.  I do not know but suspect the chassis control computer may also be damaged by higher voltage.  If damaged this would be an expensive item to replace.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Volkemon on March 19, 2018, 06:32:28 am


And no, I never stated that 1 YO batteries would be working 'as new' after a yeah. Actually, I think I posted the opposite didnt I?  (nod)



And it seems that yes indeed... one year old batteries may be better.  :beg never would have thunk it.

Quote
Nearly all batteries will not reach full capacity until cycled 10-30 times. A brand new battery will have a capacity of about 5-10% less than the rated capacity.

source - https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/batteries-and-charging/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html


Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: JHoecker on March 23, 2018, 05:55:03 pm
Q:  In the 2552 electrical diagram, where would the solar panels fit in? Do they charge the coach batteries with the disconnect switch open? On my previous LTV rig, I opened the disconnect switch with landline attached and the solar panel kept my coach batteries charged nicely. No overcharging.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: Joseph on March 24, 2018, 02:33:16 pm
Volt, I haven’t found it to be the case that one year old batteries Have improved. Quite the opposite, however it may have something to do with where I live. Living in the hot low desert batteries in cars, trucks , what have you have a much shorter life span than they did when I lived coastal. Both of my car batteries have had to be replaced with just over 24 months. Local shops say that’s pretty normal out here. When I lived coastal I typically got 4-5 + years out of a battery in my cars and pickups.
Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: keelhauler on March 25, 2018, 12:23:49 pm
The power out of the solar converter goes directly to the batteries. Switch position does not matter.
(http://keelhauler.org/RV/2552Electricalwith_SolarArrays&Monitor.jpg)