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Replace the water heater?

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LRUCH

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Replace the water heater?
« on: May 28, 2024, 10:44:16 pm »
Has anyone ever replaced the 6 gal Atwood water heater?


I found a small stream of water (fast) dripping out of the water heater door on the outside.... I tracked it to coming from some place under the water heater. I must have a cracked tank.  :'( .  I've been driving on a lot of bumpy roads (Oklahoma and Arkansas) in the last 6 months so I suspect the bottom side of the water heater took a lot of abuse and cracked.


I found a "Suburban Advantage" replacement that fits the same space, and reuses the same switches, same hot/cold water fittings, same door (including exhaust position). I ordered it to see if it really is a like for like swap. This new one is a steel tank instead of aluminum and it is porcelain lined (maybe less smell/taste?) with 3yr warranty. Also it is 1200 watt instead of 1000 watt... But I never had a problem with the old one being slow to heat.


And after watching a bunch of YouTube videos it looks like I should replace the "cone washers" in the hot and cold connectors while I have it apart.



For a very short moment I thought about an instant W. H. but I don't want to modify the outer wall, need a new door, and basically the original was endless when using electricity.


Any thing I should do / worry about / consider?


I will probably replace the piece of plywood under the old water heater as it looks deformed after this leak.... And I will Insulate inside around the water heater better than the original while I can get to that side easily.


I was thinking about adding some kind of drip pan under it just in case it leaks again,,, but decided I was over thinking it. Am I crazy?


Larry
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flei

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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2024, 10:07:29 am »
Larry-  I have not replaced our water heater (yet) so can't help you out, but I expect to have to do so someday (we too drive some rough roads (e.g., Alaska, Yukon, and the worst roads: Massachusetts!)) so it would be great if you could post a follow-up after you do the job.  Also wondering exactly what water heater you found that is a perfect swap.  Thanks and good luck with the replacement! 
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence.- A. Einstein

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keelhauler

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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2024, 10:09:32 am »
Sounds good but when I had a steel tank in an old RV I needed to use a cathodic protection rod, see if the new one has one on drain plug.



John

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LRUCH

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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2024, 01:30:36 pm »
Here's the one I ordered SUBURBAN MFG Suburban 5322A Direct Spark Ignition (DSI) 6 Gallon Advantage Water Heater - SAW6DEL White https://a.co/d/diDPTUz and it arrived late last night.  BTW, it wasn't cheap, $480.


And yep,,, it has an anode rod that I will need to replace periodically. I'm not thrilled with that idea, but hopefully the choice is out weighed by not needing to change the plumbing and the outside door. TBD.  I'm going to attempt to install this Saturday. I'll take pics and document the process here.


Stay tuned....  >:(
Larry

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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2024, 01:02:10 am »

Sorry for the delay on posting this. This summer was very busy with a Derecho, a Hurricane and a big family event 1000 miles from home. I traveled a lot in my RV this summer,,, often without hot water due to the issues I encountered with a leak from a new brass fitting(s!)... More details as you read on.   I will need to post this in multiple messages due to how much I have to write and with so many pictures.

The new Suburban water heater arrived mid June, quickly via UPS. I'd say it weighs about 4 or 5 pounds more than the original Atwood... most likely due to the new tank being steel and glass lined the Atwood is just aluminum), and due to the fact the new water heater is slightly larger than the Atwood.

Throughout this writeup I've added the notation  "(pic)" indicating I've included a pic, and in some places "(TAKE PIC!)" to indicate YOU SHOULD TAKE A PIC to save how something is wired/attached, etc for later reference in the install.

I don't intend this posting to be a replacement for the installation instructions document, but additional advice & commentary on what specifically to watch for as a PC owner. With that said, the Suburban instructions to install the water heater are terrible. There's a YouTube video that is far better than the install doc included with the suburban.  I followed the video closely for the install steps because the install doc just leaves you wondering what they intended you to do at times.

https://youtu.be/uji0Qx1tm9Q?si=WPag47tHDMVcin72

I thought taking out the old WH would be the easy part, however it was not easy peazy.   First, take the outside door off and save it... That's the beauty of this suburban model. It lets you reuse your original door so no repainting required. On the inside under the kitchen sink, I needed to remove the cabinet false floor and divider that hides the water heater.  It's not the easiest to get the false floor out but eventually you find a direction to turn it to finally pivot it out the cabinet door.

Next, document (TAKE PIC!) how your old Atwood is connected to 12v (the switch and light), 120V, propane, hot and cold water pipes before you disconnect everything... You will want to refer to these pics later when you install the new water heater.

I highly recommend you cap the propane line or seal it off with masking tape (pic). You don't want any contaminants in it that would clog the burner's orifice later.  I disconnected the hot&cold water, propane, 120v and outside screws and yet it wouldn't move. I could tell I had broke the seal on the old butyl on the outside, but the water heater wouldn't budge.  There had to be something still holding it in place.  Since I couldn't find the 12v connections yet, I suspected they must be holding it, or getting in the way.

I decided to loosen the under sink shelf to see it was holding it. That didn't help.  The sink drain and hot & cold pex goes through 2 holes in the shelf so I could not remove the shelf. (pic) Phoenix, please don't do this!  Taking this shelf out would have made this effort much easier.

I finally figured out that the particle board platform (pic) under the WH was soaked and deformed. It was basically stuck to the WH and also screwed to the floor. With some muscle I got the old WH off the riser high enough to start moving.

Next obstacle encountered about 3 inches out was a large bundle of 12v wires and nuts taped into a large ball on top of the WH next to the outside wall. I could use my phone camera to get a photo (pic)... but I could not directly see it. If you don't have long skinny arms, you'll never reach it. You'll need to blindly unwind a lot of black electrical  tape in that skinny gap between the water heater and the shelf under the sink.

After some choice words and scratched knuckles the tape was removed and the wires separated enough to lay flat across the top of the WH in a groove (pic). The thing finally wiggled out of the wall while carefully guiding the wires under the edge of the wall. (pic) You want to document how these 12v wires are connected. (TAKE PIC!) It will help you later install the 12v connections. Disconnect the wires and finish pulling out the WH. Be sure you don't damage the copper propane line. I had to remove the rubber grommet around it and then bend it a bit to get it to slip out the WH wall.

Once you get the WH out, don't be surprised that it is heavy as it still has a few inches of water in it.

Clean up was easy. I got all of the old butyl and dirt off the outside with a wet rag, some dish soap and a bucket of water.  I unscrewed the particle board platform from the floor and vacuumed & scrubbed the floor, inside walls, pipes, etc. (pic)  Happily, I found a couple things that I had lost in the hole behind the stove that holds the countertop inserts.

I recreated a new platform with 1/2" plywood and attached it back in the same place.  This platform supports the WH and keeps it perpendicular to the outer wall. From what I can tell most brands of RVs have the WH sitting on the floor which puts the outside WH door slightly below floor level.  Evidently Phoenix didn't want the outer door that low and interfering with the outer wall joining to the skirt, so the WH is about 2 inches above the floor. ... And this wastes a lot of space under it. It allows better airflow, but surely there is something better than particle board for this, or lower the water heater to the floor and change the outside door mount point. I also wonder if a drain pan would be a good thing to add, because every water heater leaks at some point. I almost put one in, I but couldn't find one that fit.

Next post is about the install....
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 01:10:48 am by LRUCH »
Larry

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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2024, 01:06:11 am »

Now the difficult work begins.  Installing the new Water Heater.

CLEARANCE:  there is zero clearance on all sides. The suburban water heater is slightly larger in all directions.  It rubs the left and right side of the outside wall hole and insides of the cabinet. It's also taller so it rubs the drain under my sink. The Atwood WH didn't.  The suburban web site says they built their WH to fit in the "same space as the Atwood". I'm not sure whether Suburban built to fill (or over fill?) the space, or Phoenix invaded the Atwood's space with pipes and cabinet walls. I really could have used a 1/4 inch more space on the sides and a 1/2 inch more on the top. It was really tight.  I had to compress the insulation of the new WH to get it to fit. ... And there is not a lot of insulation. (pic). This effort took hours of wiggling, pushing, adjusting. I also could have used a helper on the inside to see what was catching when I pushed on the outside.

PROPANE LINE: Phoenix took a short cut path from the hole in the floor where the propane line enters, to the outer wall where it connects to the WH.  The saving grace was (A) I was able push a bit more line from under the floor up into the cabinet, and (B) straighten out the line as it runs along the side of the WH. Combining these mods (barely) gave me enough copper to reach around the slightly larger WH.

A few important points to make about the new suburban and reconnecting everything.

-> before you reconnect the hot and cold pex lines replace the washers inside the screw-on pex connectors. You can pull them out with needle noise pliers. I had some of these left over after replacing my water pump.   Here's a link to them:

Adabuing 16435 RV Plastic Santoprene Swivel Seal 1/2"
https://a.co/d/3eBmSi5

-> The new hot connection was an exact position match as the old hot. The cold connection moved. The hot pex line was in the way. I needed to extend the cold either a little bit or a lot depending on which side of the hot I wanted it. I opted to extend it a lot by adding a brass Tee which gave me a place to add a connection for an ultraviolet water sterilizer. (more details on this in a separate posting). So, you'll see an extra chrome water valve in my final install (pic).

-> The original cabinet false floor and divider doesn't fit after the new WH is in place (pic) because the cold side brass fittings are in the way. I needed to do some carpentry work to cover the WH while avoiding the extended cold water inlet. Once reshaped, I painting this white (pic).

« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 01:08:01 am by LRUCH »
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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2024, 01:14:47 am »

Electric connections & Post install

-> The 12v connections take a bit of research and planning.  I doubt if every PC is wired the same so invest some time to understand the old connections and the switch wiring to get this right on the suburban.  Also... I have no idea why the PC has a black and white white for the ground. I just reused it as-is.

I traced the yellow-red-blue 12v wires back to the 2 switches under the sink to verify and the colors were as follows:
PC electric switch = yellow wire
PC gas switch = red wire
PC indicator light = blue wire
... And this led me to the following connections (pic) :

Atwood            PC Wires               Suburban
White               Yellow                  Orange (electric)
Orange            Red                       Red (gas)
Blue                 Blue                      Blue (indicator light)
Green              White&Black       Green (ground)

]Also, for some reason the new Suburban blue wire wanders around the water heater and through 2 brackets for no reason and is too short (pic). I pulled it out of the brackets and gained a lot of wire,,, enough to cut off extra.

-> This is an important one. The suburban has an outside master power switch. When I got ready to try it the WH for the first time, I turned on the 120V breaker and then pressed the propane switch to test if it would light .... Nothing happened. What?!?!  I then tried the electric switch and waited. Again... Nothing happened. (more choice words, but at least no scratched knuckles). It then occured me that the master switch was off. I turned it on and the burner ignited on the 2nd try. Yay.  It also heated up on electricity. double yay.  It also heats up quicker with both on... Just like the Atwood did. Time to celebrate.

-> Another important point to highlight. The behavior of the red indicator light between the gas and electric switch is different. It comes on immediately when you turn on the gas switch. It goes off when the burner is ignited.  If you leave the gas switch on and the water reaches the "hot" limit the burner then goes off. When the water cools down and needs heating, the red light will come on for a few seconds while the burner is lighting.  If the burner fails to ignite, then the red light stays on.  On the Atwood I only saw the red light when there was a problem... We're used to the light ONLY being on when there is a problem. With the suburban the red light comes on when the water is cold and the propane burner has not lit yet.

-> About 3 years ago I had replaced the thermostat on the Atwood with a 3rd party variable temp version,,, because I was tired of burning my hands. I can't find a variable thermostat for this suburban. Darn, back to burning myself until I can find a compatible variable temp thermostat. 

-> Now to the plumbing advice... I saved this one for the end as it turned out to be the most troublesome.   

###THROW AWAY THE OLD PLASTIC ELBOWS FOR THE HOT AND COLD WATER CONNECTIONS AND REPLACE THEM WITH HIGH QUALITY BRASS.###

One of mine was in bad shape; the other not so bad. I tried re-using the better one, but it leaked immediately.  This leak took weeks to fix and delayed this writeup. I'm still not sure if the brass elbows were also damaged, poorly made, or if the water heater hot port was defective,,,, or some combination of defects.  I tried using a lot of white silicon tape, no help. It leaked immediately. I added Tplus2 plumbers goop and it no longer leaked with normal water pressure (40psi), but it started leaking as soon the water heater was hot. (I learned this while living in my PC after the hurricane and had to dry out the floor covertly because the RV park had a strict NO REPAIRS rule!). I then tried 2 more new brass elbows (each a different brand, ranging from $7 to $17. ) and finally one of them snugged down well. Of course, the one that worked the best was the most expensive. However, it still leaked a tiny amount (at the rate of 1 or 2 drops in 4 to 5 hours) when hot. After a lot of research and talking to a commercial plumber, I found a better kind of plumbers goop called TRU BLU (pic) that is designed for long hot connections with vibrations. I put a heat gun on it for 10 minutes and then let it set for 24 hours.

..... Finally. Success. No more leak. And STILL No Leak after camping for a week.  Happy dance.


-> One of last things to do was to reattach the original door on the outside using the provided new clips. The old clips are too short since the inner bracket moved a bit, so be sure to use the new clips that come with the suburban. With a bit of pressure they line up the door with the opening and the latch,,, it looks perfect. (pic).

After about a month in Texas heat I found that the Butyl tape had oozed out of every corner and edge and the outside cover was sticking. I probably used too much Butyl, but that was better than not enough. I cleaned up the extra with a putty knife and it looks great now and the cover works perfectly.  I've washed my PC a few times and survived another tropical storm and there are no leaks getting past the Butyl.

-> This Suburban draws 12 amps on 120v. The Atwood only drew 9 amps. I could run my 15k btu AC (with a SoftStart) and Atwood (and convertor, fridge, water pump, lights etc) at the same time.  Now the WH, A/C and DC convertor together usually pop the 30amp camp post breaker if they are not the only things running.   I'm thinking about adding a resistor to bring the 120v amps back down enough to keep it at 10 amps. Or changing the heating element... Or something.   I'll work on this idea over winter when I have time to do research.

In summary...
Overall, I'm glad the new water heater is in place as cold showers are no fun. It was a lot of work, but it worth it.  I can see a lot of pits in the old aluminum Atwood tank so it was only a matter of time before I had a big leak.  I'm glad I discovered the tiny leak and didn't wait for a mess and major floor damage.

This new Suburban has a steel tank that is glass lined... Which makes it heavier, but it should last longer. I think the water out of it smells & tastes better too. I can make tea with this new WH,,, whereas the old [aluminum] one created nasty tasting and smelling tea. 

I wish I had measured how loud the Atwood was while heating on gas to be able to compare, because this new one is almost silent inside the PC.  Since I don't trust it and the indicator light yet,,, I have to step outside to know if the burner is lit.   

I do have an anode rod to change annually now,,, but I can deal with that. And since this "fits" where the Atwood was and I can continue to use the original exterior door, I feel it is a win win,,, but plagued with a cumbersome/challenging installation.

Larry
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 01:20:45 am by LRUCH »
Larry

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NCPinz

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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2024, 10:33:54 am »
Excellent writeup and thanks for documenting it for the rest of us.

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LRUCH

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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2024, 11:46:48 am »
You're welcome... I hope you never need it.  I also hope PhoenixUSA reads it and makes a few improvements.


Larry
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Re: Replace the water heater?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2024, 09:00:11 am »
I agree- amazing write up of the process! Sure makes me hope our water heater never dies (because such a complex process convinced me that if it does it is going to cost $$ to have it replaced by an RV shop! ).
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence.- A. Einstein