Question re: odd charger/inverter behavior..... What happened!?

My understanding of the charging/inverting system on our PC is poor; can someone please explain to me why the following occurred?

We had our 2007 PC 2350 in the shop having work done on it for several weeks. When we got it back the house batteries were low (as indicated by the red light blinking on the panel below the fridge, and "yellow" light on the battery level indicator above the stove). I attempted to plug it in to shore power so it would recharge as it always does, but no matter how I tried to do it, it would trip the 30amp house breaker.    I decided to try to begin to recharge the house batteries using the generator; the gen. would not turn over with the cab engine shut off (not enough juice in the house batteries to turn over the gen. starter?) but when I started the cab engine I could then start the gen. (I assume that is because the cab battery and/or alternator fed power to the gen. starter)) (is it normal for the gen. starter to rely on the house batteries?).  I let the gen. run for ~15mins., the lights on the panel under the stove turned green and yellow; I turned off the generator and then was able to plug in as usual to shore power just fine. It has now been plugged in overnight and the house batteries now appear to be fully charged (according to the not-very-accurate lights above the stove). 

What happened?

Was it:
1. You, flei, are clueless.
2. Problem with the transfer switch. (does my PC even have one of those?)
3. Problem with the charger.
4. Problem with the inverter.
5. Problem with the house batteries.
6. This is not a problem as it is normal.
6. None of the above

Thanks in advance for any help! 

Like you, we have a 2007 PC-2350 with the original Tripp-Lite inverter/converter.  We have owned our PC since new, so we have dealt with the Tripp-Lite for 16 years.  I have NOT had your experience, so I cannot say what and why that happened to you.  It sounds like everything happens to be working fine now, so I would not worry about the anomoly unless it becomes a chronic problem.

I have read negative comments on the Tripp-Lite inverter/converter, but my personal experience with ours has been fine.  It does take some understanding and discipline for best battery care.  I assume that is where the "negatives" reside.

I DO NOT STORE the motorhome plugged into 110V and have the TL maintain the batteries.  I did the first year in storage which did not go well for me.  I instead, disconnect all batteries from chassis and house, then using an external smart step charger, I immediately charge the batteries to full, then repeat every 3 to 4 months for maintenance.

If you drive from one RV park to another, from one 110V outlet to another with only one day in between without shore power, the Tripp-Lite works fine as it was originally set up.  But if you commonly camp without shore power with your rig parked for a number of days at a time, consider disconnecting the headphone jack style connection to the remote panel below the fridge.  That saves significant battery reserves.
http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,73.0.html

Since we almost exclusively dry camp without shore power, another practice I follow, is on the inverter itself, I turn it off when I don't have 110V shore power, or need inverted 110V power.  I could disable it at the control panel under the fridge, but turning it off on the inverter itself saves more energy.

Another big battery savings was converting all lighting to LED.
http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2186.0.html

Another big battery improvement was converting from two 12V wet acid batteries, to two 6V AGM batteries.  They were twice the price, but last 4X longer....and counting.  The TL handles the 6V AGM batteries just fine.
http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2092.0.html

When parked at a campsite for 3 or more days, I run the generator daily for about 1.5 hours using my smart step charger.  I could use the TL but the step charger has a very nice display of my battery-charging progress.

I apologize for over-replying.  I know that greatly irritates some people.  I am not a self proclaimed "Mr Know It All" kind of guy.

Probably, "most of the above"

Without actually looking at your PC, most of what you experienced is normal.  Yes, the Gen is typically started via the house batteries.  And yes, when the house batteries are low or disconnected, you need to start the Gen via the engine running.  There is a solenoid in the engine compartment that connects the alternator output to the house batteries only when the engine is running.  Thus, you can use the alternator/engine battery to start the Gen.  The Gen outputs 120v  alternating current which powers the converter/charger and starts to charge the house batteries.

Yes, there is a transfer switch that decides which 120v power source to use, by default, it uses shore power.  There's a time delay of about 20 seconds for it to switch from shore power to Gen power.  That's why when dry camping, there is a delay between the generator starting and actually getting power inside the coach.

As to blowing the 30 amp breaker... Which breaker?  The breaker inside the RV power panel or the breaker in the shore power pedestal?  Is the shore power pedestal part of your house wiring?  Meaning did you add a 30amp outlet to your home wiring?  If so, was it done professionally using 10 gauge wiring or was an existing 15 amp outlet simply refitted with a 30 amp breaker and plug?   That would be a big NO NO!  Typical 14 gauge wiring or even 12 gauge wiring commonly used in home wiring can not handle high amperage loads and can cause the breaker to open.

Anyway... Along with everything else, have your house batteries tested to insure they aren't worn out and need to be replaced.

Like you, we have a 2007 PC-2350 with the original Tripp-Lite inverter/converter.  We have owned our PC since new, so we have dealt with the Tripp-Lite for 16 years.  I have NOT had your experience, so I cannot say what and why that happened to you.  It sounds like everything happens to be working fine now, so I would not worry about the anomoly unless it becomes a chronic problem.

I have read negative comments on the Tripp-Lite inverter/converter, but my personal experience with ours has been fine.  It does take some understanding and discipline for best battery care.  I assume that is where the "negatives" reside.

I DO NOT STORE the motorhome plugged into 110V and have the TL maintain the batteries.  I did the first year in storage which did not go well for me.  I instead, disconnect all batteries from chassis and house, then using an external smart step charger, I immediately charge the batteries to full, then repeat every 3 to 4 months for maintenance.

If you drive from one RV park to another, from one 110V outlet to another with only one day in between without shore power, the Tripp-Lite works fine as it was originally set up.  But if you commonly camp without shore power with your rig parked for a number of days at a time, consider disconnecting the headphone jack style connection to the remote panel below the fridge.  That saves significant battery reserves.
http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,73.0.html

Since we almost exclusively dry camp without shore power, another practice I follow, is on the inverter itself, I turn it off when I don't have 110V shore power, or need inverted 110V power.  I could disable it at the control panel under the fridge, but turning it off on the inverter itself saves more energy.

Another big battery savings was converting all lighting to LED.
http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2186.0.html

Another big battery improvement was converting from two 12V wet acid batteries, to two 6V AGM batteries.  They were twice the price, but last 4X longer....and counting.  The TL handles the 6V AGM batteries just fine.
http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2092.0.html

When parked at a campsite for 3 or more days, I run the generator daily for about 1.5 hours using my smart step charger.  I could use the TL but the step charger has a very nice display of my battery-charging progress.

I apologize for over-replying.  I know that greatly irritates some people.  I am not a self proclaimed "Mr Know It All" kind of guy.

Thanks for the suggestions Ron.  Pretty much done all you suggested. Never had any problems with the system before (and we have often dry camped for a week or more).

Probably, "most of the above"

Without actually looking at your PC, most of what you experienced is normal.  Yes, the Gen is typically started via the house batteries.  And yes, when the house batteries are low or disconnected, you need to start the Gen via the engine running.  There is a solenoid in the engine compartment that connects the alternator output to the house batteries only when the engine is running.  Thus, you can use the alternator/engine battery to start the Gen.  The Gen outputs 120v  alternating current which powers the converter/charger and starts to charge the house batteries.

Yes, there is a transfer switch that decides which 120v power source to use, by default, it uses shore power.  There's a time delay of about 20 seconds for it to switch from shore power to Gen power.  That's why when dry camping, there is a delay between the generator starting and actually getting power inside the coach.

As to blowing the 30 amp breaker... Which breaker?  The breaker inside the RV power panel or the breaker in the shore power pedestal?  Is the shore power pedestal part of your house wiring?  Meaning did you add a 30amp outlet to your home wiring?  If so, was it done professionally using 10 gauge wiring or was an existing 15 amp outlet simply refitted with a 30 amp breaker and plug?   That would be a big NO NO!  Typical 14 gauge wiring or even 12 gauge wiring commonly used in home wiring can not handle high amperage loads and can cause the breaker to open.

Anyway... Along with everything else, have your house batteries tested to insure they aren't worn out and need to be replaced.

Thanks Don.  The 30amp breaker that kept tripping is on the house.  It was wired by an electrician; it is the very same outlet that the PC has been plugged into whenever it is parked at home for the last 3 years and never before had any issues.  So I guess the question is, why now?  Is there some condition caused by the house batteries being so low that caused the breaker to constantly trip? Something else account for it?

If your 30 AMP main source house breaker trips again, try turning off the Tripp-Lite using the switch on the inverter, then plug the RV into your house again.  See if you can rule out the TL as the culprit.  Do that also with your microwave, TVs, everything in your PC.  It will be easy to turn off all RV breakers, then turning them back on one at a time and learn from that.

You've got answers from the TripLite pros on here but I'd like to comment on a different aspect. What drained your batteries in the first place? They should not have drained sitting at a repair shop for two weeks unless the shop was running something off your batteries. I suggest checking that everything that can be turned off has been turned off (sound system, microwave, furnace, fans, heat strip, hot water, lights in bins and wardrobe, water pump, inverter, etc.) Repeat this process if you use that shop again and hit the kill switch on the house electric when you drop it off unless they are going to be working on something electric in the house. You may also want to call the service manager from the shop and let him know so they can avoid draining people's batteries in the future.

Quote from: donc13 on October 29, 2023, 10:16:54 am

Probably, "most of the above"

Without actually looking at your PC, most of what you experienced is normal.  Yes, the Gen is typically started via the house batteries.  And yes, when the house batteries are low or disconnected, you need to start the Gen via the engine running.  There is a solenoid in the engine compartment that connects the alternator output to the house batteries only when the engine is running.  Thus, you can use the alternator/engine battery to start the Gen.  The Gen outputs 120v  alternating current which powers the converter/charger and starts to charge the house batteries.

Yes, there is a transfer switch that decides which 120v power source to use, by default, it uses shore power.  There's a time delay of about 20 seconds for it to switch from shore power to Gen power.  That's why when dry camping, there is a delay between the generator starting and actually getting power inside the coach.

As to blowing the 30 amp breaker... Which breaker?  The breaker inside the RV power panel or the breaker in the shore power pedestal?  Is the shore power pedestal part of your house wiring?  Meaning did you add a 30amp outlet to your home wiring?  If so, was it done professionally using 10 gauge wiring or was an existing 15 amp outlet simply refitted with a 30 amp breaker and plug?   That would be a big NO NO!  Typical 14 gauge wiring or even 12 gauge wiring commonly used in home wiring can not handle high amperage loads and can cause the breaker to open.

Anyway... Along with everything else, have your house batteries tested to insure they aren't worn out and need to be replaced.

Thanks Don.  The 30amp breaker that kept tripping is on the house.  It was wired by an electrician; it is the very same outlet that the PC has been plugged into whenever it is parked at home for the last 3 years and never before had any issues.  So I guess the question is, why now?  Is there some condition caused by the house batteries being so low that caused the breaker to constantly trip? Something else account for it?

My *guess* is the converter/charger was drawing too much power along with some other load like water heater (if it has an electric option), the refrigerator (in electric mode).  That is why I mentioned you should get your house batteries checked.

Now that the batteries are charged, what happens if you plug it into your house 30 amp outlet?

If your 30 AMP main source house breaker trips again, try turning off the Tripp-Lite using the switch on the inverter, then plug the RV into your house again.  See if you can rule out the TL as the culprit.  Do that also with your microwave, TVs, everything in your PC.  It will be easy to turn off all RV breakers, then turning them back on one at a time and learn from that.

All appliances and everything else was turned off. We have no microwave or tv.  The only thing we ever use 110V A/C for is phone chargers etc. (which do not obviously even need 110V A/C). We always run the fridge on gas or if we are plugged into 30amp 110V A/C at a campground.  Use the house A/C only when plugged into 30amp or more at a campground.

You've got answers from the TripLite pros on here but I'd like to comment on a different aspect. What drained your batteries in the first place? They should not have drained sitting at a repair shop for two weeks unless the shop was running something off your batteries. I suggest checking that everything that can be turned off has been turned off (sound system, microwave, furnace, fans, heat strip, hot water, lights in bins and wardrobe, water pump, inverter, etc.) Repeat this process if you use that shop again and hit the kill switch on the house electric when you drop it off unless they are going to be working on something electric in the house. You may also want to call the service manager from the shop and let him know so they can avoid draining people's batteries in the future.

It was sitting for 3 weeks (at two different shops). Everything was turned off.  First shop rebuilt the front end, new brakes, shocks, etc., and likely did not use any D/C power. The second shop needed to use the house batteries as they installed a power awning and a new water pump (and maybe they used interior lights etc.?). Possibly between sitting at the first shop 2 1/2 weeks and then at the second, the house batteries got drained?

Quote from: flei on October 29, 2023, 11:30:49 am

Quote from: donc13 on October 29, 2023, 10:16:54 am

Probably, "most of the above"

Without actually looking at your PC, most of what you experienced is normal.  Yes, the Gen is typically started via the house batteries.  And yes, when the house batteries are low or disconnected, you need to start the Gen via the engine running.  There is a solenoid in the engine compartment that connects the alternator output to the house batteries only when the engine is running.  Thus, you can use the alternator/engine battery to start the Gen.  The Gen outputs 120v  alternating current which powers the converter/charger and starts to charge the house batteries.

Yes, there is a transfer switch that decides which 120v power source to use, by default, it uses shore power.  There's a time delay of about 20 seconds for it to switch from shore power to Gen power.  That's why when dry camping, there is a delay between the generator starting and actually getting power inside the coach.

As to blowing the 30 amp breaker... Which breaker?  The breaker inside the RV power panel or the breaker in the shore power pedestal?  Is the shore power pedestal part of your house wiring?  Meaning did you add a 30amp outlet to your home wiring?  If so, was it done professionally using 10 gauge wiring or was an existing 15 amp outlet simply refitted with a 30 amp breaker and plug?   That would be a big NO NO!  Typical 14 gauge wiring or even 12 gauge wiring commonly used in home wiring can not handle high amperage loads and can cause the breaker to open.

Anyway... Along with everything else, have your house batteries tested to insure they aren't worn out and need to be replaced.

Thanks Don.  The 30amp breaker that kept tripping is on the house.  It was wired by an electrician; it is the very same outlet that the PC has been plugged into whenever it is parked at home for the last 3 years and never before had any issues.  So I guess the question is, why now?  Is there some condition caused by the house batteries being so low that caused the breaker to constantly trip? Something else account for it?

My *guess* is the converter/charger was drawing too much power along with some other load like water heater (if it has an electric option), the refrigerator (in electric mode).  That is why I mentioned you should get your house batteries checked.

Now that the batteries are charged, what happens if you plug it into your house 30 amp outlet?

Water heater was not on. Nor was fridge or any other A/C appliance. Everything is normal now and it plugs into the same house outlet without throwing the house breaker.  Only thing I can figure is that the batteries were so low t hat they were drawing too much power from the inverter/charger? Is that possible?

Yes, that is possible,   Again, why I suggest you get the batteries checked.

Don

Thanks Don,

What is interesting is the on the passenger side there is only one set of wires going to the pre-tensionsioner.   There are no wires under the passenger seat connected for the seat belt indicator.  There is a set off wires not connected to anything with tape on the end under the passenger seat.

But unlike the driver side with a connector that allows for 4 wires the passenger side only has a connector for 2 wires. 
Only the driver's side has both the SRS and the seatbelt wiring.   For example when my wife sits in the passenger seat without her seatbelt on the indicator doesn't light on indicating she is not wearing the seatbelt.    I thought this didn't seem right, so I checked someone else's rig at the reunion and their passenger seatbelt is also not connected to the indicator.  Let me know if your rig (passenger side) if your seatbelt is connected to the sensor. 

I most likely will end up going to Ford but after checking my OBD indicating the pretensioner error I thought I would ask our fellow PC owners for their input.   

For others that read this post:  Does your passenger seatbelt connected to an indicator on the dash?  So if someone is sitting in the passenger seat without their seatbelt (and the engine on and the driver has their seatbel on) is there a signal on the dash indicating no seatbelt?   

thanks  dave

Dave, I think this belongs on the other topic

Yes, that is possible,   Again, why I suggest you get the batteries checked.

Don

Don, I would not have thought of that.  Thanks for the enlightenment.