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Cracked Cab

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rvrunner

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Cracked Cab
« on: March 30, 2022, 10:02:13 am »
Has anyone had the top of the cab crack where the front cap is fastened?
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Bangorbob

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2022, 10:22:39 am »
Is it possible to post a picture?
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rvrunner

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2022, 10:36:56 am »
The crack is covered with sealant, you can't really see it. I noticed it shortly after it was new. The metal roof is cracked above the windshield in front of the steering wheel. I had the windshield replaced 3 yrs ago and the installer said there was a crack and they sealed it so it wouldn't leak. Now my cap keeps coming loose from all the flexing.
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zolman

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2022, 02:36:01 pm »
Cracked where on the cab or cap? Middle, side, lateral, vertical?You need to send some type of picture.

I’ve had 3 PCs and I’ve reconditioned all of them. Including removing and replacing all the cab caulking. I have no idea what you are referring to
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rvrunner

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2022, 08:59:12 pm »
Here you go.
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2022, 10:32:41 pm »
That does not look good.  At the same time, as long as water does not get inside, maybe you can just let it go.  Hopefully the crack won't continue and go through and through.

Back in the days of Kermit, our PC frontal area had developed an irritating squeak.  Kermit said to place my palm on each corner of the B+ cap and try to lift each corner off the van roof.  I did that check which proved to be a non issue.  I solved my squeak from another tip from Kermit.

My point here is to check and see if the cap is properly fastened to the van roof through palming the cap upward.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 10:34:58 pm by Ron Dittmer »
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rvrunner

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2022, 11:34:25 pm »
I had a well recommended body man look at it yesterday. He said the roof metal is very thin, he could weld it but that would weaken the metal around the weld. He may use flat rivets but when you strengthen one place you weaken another. He said this will be an on going problem. I thought the crack was a Ford defect, he said no, it was cracked from installing the cap. I really don't know what to do, my slide went out for the third time in 3.5 yrs. last Sept.  PC couldn't get me in until January so we went down south for 4 months with no slide. Our fridge broke loose from the frame work that holds it up for the 2'nd time, PC fixed it a year ago, we limped home and I patched it up. Our PC will be 4 yrs old next month, it has 122,000 miles on the odometer, our traveling has come to a complete stop until we can get repairs. I've been back to the factory 9 times, a friend of mine found a dealer in Minneapolis who has a slide repair specialist, I'll give him a try, what do I have to lose. Sorry for all he bad news, I have no good news to report.
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Engineerlt

Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2022, 07:28:26 am »
Hello RVRunner
Man sorry to hear about more problems. The crack on the drivers side is a fatigue crack in the window frame structure, it appears that it runs under the gasket. Wondering does the crack extend to the inside of the window frame? This is from to much flexing in the window frame area which points to lack of support. My guess is the load of the cap, cabinets and there contents is to great for the structure of the roof and window frame to support. This is making the roof work side to side in a racking motion. You may have issues on both sides of the window frame (drivers, passengers). The body guy is correct once he welds on the metal it will probably fix that crack but it will crack again near the same area. Hate to say this but at this point I would think the fix would be to repair the cracks and stiffen the cab structure. I am curious to know what you may be carrying in those cabinets. An interim solution would be to lighten the load in the cabinets to elevate some of the stress on the cab. I know its not what you want to hear but I believe if you don't do something the next issue will be a crack in the windshield as it is now probably starting to flex somewhat with the cab. 

These Ford cutaway chassis have definite limitations with lack of rear support behind the cab. Any weight high up directly associated with the cab, will start to work the cab structure at its weakest points that is why I point to what is being carried in the cabinets above, these have a direct impact on this fatigue cracking issue.

I guess I should ask the question do you notice any issues with the roof of the RV? PC's are built with aluminum square tubing and aluminum doesn't lend itself to repetitive flexing.  It is so rigid that it cracks and if some of the support structure in the roof around the slide opening is cracked it could also explain the crack in the cab.  That would allow the roof to rack and that in turn would flex the cab.  The slide opening is a weak spot to the structure, this could also account for some of your slide issues. I think a ladder and a inspection of the where the roof joins the wall is in order as well. Looking for any pulling away of the seam trim that runs down the length of the roof or any other thing out of the ordinary.

To not look at this would be to treat  the symptom not the problem.

Again sorry for all your issue's
Very Respectfully
Lance
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 08:20:59 am by Engineerlt »
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rvrunner

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2022, 09:55:33 am »
Engineerlt, you ask some good questions, I don't know what to do at this point. I've put 7500 $ so far in repairs, the roof and the slide will will put me over 10,000. The factory stuck a lot in it too. I'm looking at some class b vans, no slides, no roof, no cracking overhead caps. I don;t want to spend 150,000 $ right now and I don't know what to do with my PC.
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zolman

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2022, 10:15:14 am »
EngineerLT did a awesome job or evaluating your problems. I am disappointed the the PC manufacturer could not diagnose your issue. There has to be a correlation between your crack and slide problem.

Good luck and please keep us informed if you find the problem or solution.
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Engineerlt

Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2022, 11:58:12 am »
Hello RVRunner
I would have to say at some point you need to weigh the pros and cons. It appears that your PC has had and has some issue's. At some point you will want to stop hemorrhaging money and look for another RV. Not so sure a new one needs to be purchased, as if you can hold out a little while before making a purchase people will be selling there RV's. The gas prices and cost of living increases will drive the RV prices down (at least in the used RV market) as people won't be able to afford the expenses to own one. I can already see some RV's popping up on the market that people are trying to get rid of as they just can't afford them.  Its between food and fun, you know which one will take precedence.

I am sure you looked at those Coach House units.  They are nice and I flipped between a PC and one. With a complete one piece fiberglass structure you shouldn't have the issues you are experiencing now. I didn't buy one because to me they look like a toaster ( I mean that in a nice way). They are nice however and I have seen some of the older ones and they look good for being 7-8 years old. To me that speaks to how the coach is built. I wouldn't hesitate in buying a low milage one, in the model I liked. Year is of no consequence to me if its been taken care of.

Very Respectfully
Lance
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2022, 12:21:08 pm »
Quote from: rvrunner on March 31, 2022, 09:55:33 am
I'm looking at some class b vans, no slides, no roof, no cracking overhead caps.
I will always support going slide-less if you can live with less elbow room, and your floor plan can accommodate it.

rvrunner, This won't help address your situation, rather provide a possible cause, why the crack may have developed.

I got this picture from Phoeinx's construction slide show.  The shell of the van is structurally compromised from cutting the roof to create a friendly pass-thru between cab and cabin.  Almost "every" RV manufacture does this with their B+ and C class motorhomes.  Not only is structural integrity compromised, encouraging such stress cracks, but "side impact" and "roll-over" protection is also compromised.  Add in 122,000 miles of an overly stiff suspension and rough roads, though very rare, bad things can develop like rvrunner is dealing with.
 
So what can we do to prevent this from happening to our PC's?  Soften the ride to reduce metal fatigue.

1) Weigh your rig, then adjust your tire pressure to that weight.  Over-inflating your tires will make for an unnecessary rough ride.

2) Make notable effort at softening the ride through spring adjustments, most especially to owners of PC models 2100, 2350, and 2400, built on the E450 chassis.  Consider what I did HERE with my front suspension.  Also consider doing something similar with your rear springs, removing one or more leafs to lower your load margin to soften your ride.  You want roughly 500 pounds of extra load margin between what you actually carry, and the GAWR of each axle.  Your house, your contents, and you, will all appreciate a softer riding PC.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 12:40:33 pm by Ron Dittmer »
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CalCruiser

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2022, 12:47:26 pm »
^^                         ^^                           ^^
That’s an excellent view of the cab roof structure. Maybe the spot welds on the cross support failed (see vertical line above the sun visor). If it can be welded together again maybe get the shop to also fabricate and install a tubular  cross support/ brace at the back of the cab, disguised as a curtain rod. The early PC’s retained the original cab roof structure, but we have to duck when entering from the back.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 01:18:56 pm by CalCruiser »
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2022, 06:33:15 am »
I assume the developing crack and continued water infiltration, is the result of "van body movement", the flexing of the cab body that resulted from Phoenix cutting the roof.  If rvrunner could stabilize through reinforcement, the relationship between the side and the front of the van cab, then a good sealant could possibly last the balance of the vehicle's life span.  There also was mention of the relationship of the B+ cap also being compromised.  That too would benefit from reinforcement.

It appears the body cracking is the result of the Ford factory welds on the driver side failing in the area marked with a yellow arrow.  I feel welding 1/8" thick flat sheet steel in the area shown, to the framing (not the body) marked with red arrows, will strengthen the relationship between the front windshield frame and the side the door frame.  Once the two don't move any longer, the B+ cap is stabilized.  As long as the B+ cap is still fastened adequately to the van, the right sealant will then perform well.  Also, be sure to stuff a lot of insulation between the plate and the roof to avoid a potential clanking sound from vibration contact.

In theory, the main repair is done inside the cab.  The repair involves removing the headliner & wire harness, and somehow protect everything inside the cab and house from weld spatter.

Instead of welding, you could have the plate fabricated with flanges, then "screw" the plate to the van cab framing instead of welding it.  I would use screws every 1.5 inches.

Of coarse everything I am saying here is theoretical.  A detailed inspection/evaluation is surely in order.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2022, 09:31:13 pm by Ron Dittmer »
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Volkemon

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Re: Cracked Cab
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2022, 09:10:44 am »
OW!    Hurts to look at that picture RVRunner.

NO idea if your 2018 was constructed in the same way as our 2006,  but I corrected many mounting flaws in ours. Looking at the damage you have encountered, I think I may have 'dodged a bullet' here.

https://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?topic=3559.msg30570#msg30570     and following post has some of the 'shoring up' I did.


Doing the work on my windshield area and TV mount, the only fasteners between the cabinets/fiberglass cap and the forward cab metal roof area I found were 8 self tapper screws.  EVERY SINGLE ONE had not penetrated into the cabinet wood support it was intended for. I had a short video of that, apparently it got deleted from dropbox.

See the round carriage bolt head next to the socket in the picture below?



I drilled holes through the cabinet floor and fastened the 1/4 wood to the steel. The wood is loaded in shear, so is pretty strong.

There was also a support behind the TV in the front that was not attached at all. Staples used during assembly were too short.  This picture is with the TV support wood removed.  See the heads of the bolts in the wood, with the sawdust all over the headliner support below? Not the two sticking out, but just outboard of them.



This is the bottom as fastened to the steel. The big washer and nut top center.



 The two heads that are sticking out with thread are later fastened though the TV support wood.  They are visible below the glue lines in the picture below.




 (cheer) So whats the point?   (exactly)   (exactly) (exactly) (exactly) (exactly)

I believe that you may be able to secure the cabinets to the cab MUCH MUCH better than they are, and mitigate a lot of the side to side movement of the cabinets and cap. The break in the steel structure is a symptom, not a cause, in my opinion. Trying to fix that crack will not stop the problem at all. Again, just my somewhat educated guess.
   


« Last Edit: April 01, 2022, 09:16:27 am by Volkemon »
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