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Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter

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2 Frazzled

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Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« on: March 23, 2022, 01:37:07 pm »
We're planning a trip to the factory for some updates/upgrades for our 2013 2552. I'm putting different posts up for each item to get feedback from people that have the newer components (within last year or two).

We plan to get a new converter and inverter installed so we are Lithium ready. What is the factory install for this? Pros and cons from people that own the new components and have had test time please.

John, Holly, and sometimes Chloe.
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Engineerlt

Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2022, 10:08:19 pm »
2 Frazzled I am not sure what your coach came with.  My 2017 2552 came with the Xantrex 1800 modified sinewave inverter (12V to120V) and the Parallax distribution panel with an attached converter (120V to 12V). My thoughts on these two items first. 

1.) The Xantrex 1800 modified sinewave isn't good for any electronics. The square sinewave it puts out is very hard on the electronics and actually overheats the components shortening there life span. Then the question is what electronics do you run on your inverter? If you are charging a I-Pad or Laptop they are usually protected by the 120V to USB 5V converter or a laptop its protected by the power brick located in the power cord. What if you want to run that microwave now and you use a modified sinewave well your going to shorten its life.

2.) Parallax Distribution Panel with attached converter, The distribution section is very nice for the 120V and the 12V sections.  They are robust and will perform for the life of the RV.  The converter section is a not very good however. It's charging profile for lead acid batteries (what it is designed for) doesn't work.  It often over charges them and boils off the water destroying your batteries. It can't handle lithium batteries.

Here is what I did to correct those problems with my PC.

1.) Removed the Xantrex 1800 modified sinewave inverter and installed a 2000W Magnum Dimensions pure sinewave inverter. I can run my microwave now.  I don't use the convection as I still haven't upgraded to Lithium batteries.

2.) Parrallax distribution panel with the attached converter; I realized that you don't have to remove the distribution panel, you can just remove the converter section.  This left plenty of room to install a WFCO WF-9855LIS converter. It can charge what ever battery I chose to use without damage to the battery. So it is ready for that Lithium battery when I am ready to install it.

Here is the kicker to the situation, would I have done these mods again or would I have done something different. First and foremost all of these up grades listed do everything very well and haven't failed or given me any problems. Plus they weren't as expensive as some other alternatives. Knowing what I know now, I would have installed the Victron multiplus 2000 if you are wired for 30amp (like me) or if you have 50amp the multiplus -II.  This will take the place of the converter and the inverter. The multiplus features, 50 Amp transfer switch, 80 Amp charger for main battery, and 1 Amp charger for start battery, a  2000W true sine wave inverter, adaptive charging, hybrid PowerAssist technology, plus multiple system integration features. The multiplus-II  has all the same features, a 3000W true sine wave inverter and it will take and feed both hot legs of the 50 amp system if that is how your coach is wired.
 So get this they both have a dedicated way to charge the starting battery, like a Trik-l-start.  If your running your generator and the load gets to high the inverter will supplement it. Everything is adjustable in the software, you can monitor via Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, touch screen monitor, analog monitor.

Here are a couple pictures,
 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2022, 10:21:07 pm by Engineerlt »

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mikeh

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2022, 01:38:12 am »
When I ordered my 2019 unit, the standard inverter was still the Xantrex 1800 watt (modified sine wave) unit that Lance (Engineerit) discusses.  Phoenix did offer as an option an upgrade to a 2000 watt pure sine wave unit for an additonal $1K (which I decided not to get).  Since that time, based on their website specs, their standard installation is now a 2000 watt inverter, but I don't know whether it is modified or pure sine type.  As Lance says, the pure sine type unit is considered best for any sensitive electronics, however I have had no problems using my standard 1800 watt unit for all my needs, including computer and cell charging.  I've never had occasion to try to run my microwave from the inverter.

Regarding the converter/charger: again, as Lance says, through 2017 the standard installation was the Parallax power panel which offered only a single-stage battery charging profile which has created battery overcharge issues for a lot of folks as reported many times on this forum.  Sometime in 2018 Phoenix changed to the Progressive Dynamics power panel which incorporated a 3-stage converter/charger largely solving that issue.  I took trouble to specify the PD unit when I ordered my coach in late 2018, only to find that it had already been incorporated as the standard install, and I believe a similar PD unit is still being installed today.  There have been at least two lithium conversions from lead-acid discussed on this forum (one from FANDJ) that used this same converter/charger with no alterations.  In those cases, the users reported that both Progressive Dynamics and the lithium battery manufacturer confirmed that the installed converter/charger unit would support the lithium with no problem.  I do know that the current "replacement-type" converter/charger units offered by Progressive Dynamics (for replacement in your existing power panel) now include a switch to change between lead-acid and lithium battery charge profiles, and based on other forum entries, I believe the entire power panels being installed by Phoenix in new coaches today also include that switch.
Mike



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fandj

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2022, 10:21:22 am »
When I ordered my PC in 2016 I had the factory install a Progressive Dynamics 70 amp multistage charger and a 2000 watt Samlex pure sine wave inverter.  While these units have worked well I think if I was faced with this today I would seriously consider a Victron multiplus combined charger and inverter.  I have used a Victron solar controller, battery monitor, and remote battery voltage and temperature components and like the way they have performed and the ease of monitoring system status and making changes to various parameters.  The various components network together and optimize their performance and allow me to use my phone to monitor their performance as well as to make changes to the program.


There are numerous videos of RV owners changing to this system.  This is an example of one:  [size=78%]https://youtu.be/6qqg10xIZr4[/size]


I am currently using two 100 ah Lithium batteries.  The Victron products typically are customizable in terms of charging parameters making them easy to setup no matter your battery type.  If you didn’t want to tackle the install yourself there appears to be numerous companies across the US that could do that.


 I have a 2552 and I think but don’t know for sure this would fit under the passenger side bed but installation location would be one of the first things I would want to determine.  As you know available space inside the PC is somewhat limited.

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LRUCH

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2022, 10:22:51 pm »
I have an older PC,,, but if I can throw in my 2 cents here...
If I were going to replace the invertor/convertor/etc I would want to put them under the floor in a ventilated cabinet. I get tired of hearing the fans and transformer hum. The fuse box could stay above the floor,,,, but the rest outside.  And while you're doing that, add a built in surge protector.

Larry
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2 Lucky

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2022, 09:01:19 am »
There is some great info here as I am also looking to upgrade my inverter and converter and eventually go lithium batteries. My question is where to go to get the best product and installation... a solar company or a reliable RV repair shop? Swapping out all that electrical is not something I feel comfortable doing, and I know my poor knees will complain more than it is worth.
Also, should I be swapping out the 12 year old 90 watt solar panels at the same time?
Thanks for all of the amazing knowledge this forum provides. What a wonderful family.
Dougn 
Riding the fine line between bravery and stupidity since infancy.

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donc13

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2022, 06:28:44 pm »
I have an older PC,,, but if I can throw in my 2 cents here...
If I were going to replace the invertor/convertor/etc I would want to put them under the floor in a ventilated cabinet. I get tired of hearing the fans and transformer hum. The fuse box could stay above the floor,,,, but the rest outside.  And while you're doing that, add a built in surge protector.

Larry

Ahhhh... Under the floor on a PC is the frame and driveline fully exposed to the weather and road debris, a ventilated case exposed to the outside holding unsealed electronics is not a good thing.

Just sayin'
« Last Edit: March 29, 2022, 06:31:10 pm by donc13 »
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Don and Patti

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Engineerlt

Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2022, 06:32:33 pm »
Hello 2 Lucky
This is just my opinion but most solar companies are looking to install solar on homes not RV's, I wouldn't want them on my RV roof.   If you can find someone who has been to the National RV School in Athens TX that has completed the solar section it would be your best bet. You can use there locator service to find someone in your area, they may even come to you. Your current solar panels must be regular non-flexible panels. They last a long time but do degrade over time. My thought would be to test them and see how close they are to rated output, then go from there. I have 400 watts, and looking at adding more.

Don't mess around with all the other stuff when it comes to converters and inverters. Just buy the Victron multiplus 2000 it will fill your needs and expand with you, if you so desire. IF your going in deep enough to change both then its perfect time for what I would consider the top of the line. It really won't cost much more.

Pictures are of my solar panels, Reneogy 40 Amp MPPT controller (2nd pic bottom left), 3rd pic shows the solar wiring on the left and 4th shows solar wiring along with the Victron BMV-712 meter.  Its Bluetooth so I didn't need it installed inside.

https://rvtaa.org/locate/?mcp_token=eyJwaWQiOjM5ODQ4OCwic2lkIjo1MzYyMzkzMDYzODEyMjM0LCJheCI6IjE2ZTk1NjBiNmRiODkxMDBjYzM0ZmU0ZTkwZDQ1MzZjIiwidHMiOjE2NDg1OTUzMzgsImV4cCI6MTY1MTAxNDUzOH0.EFkfhEq17RqwSk495XAq63TtHu-2aAxvbqpm4FRX0Ms

This is the link to find a tech.

Very Respectfully
Lance
« Last Edit: March 29, 2022, 07:10:52 pm by Engineerlt »

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bobkbusch

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2022, 12:25:56 pm »
...What is the factory install for this?...

I recently traded my 2014 2350 for a slightly used (3500 miles) 2022 2552.  The 2552 has a factory installed Progressive Dynamics PD4575TB converter/charger.  It is a 50 amp coach and there is an easily accessible dip switch on the front of the distribution panel to switch from a Lead Acid to a Lithium charge profile.

The inverter is a Xantrex Freedom X 2000W pure sine wave inverter.  To be honest, I don't even know if the microwave is plugged into an inverted outlet.

The factory installed solar charge controller is a 30amp Samlex SCC-30AB that has dip switches to set a lithium charge profile.

There is no DC-DC charge controller between the alternator and house batteries, which is possibly an issue for lithium batteries because of their low internal resistance.  That is a complicated discussion, but Phoenix told me a DC-DC charge controller isn't necessary and also said Battle Born visited the factory and agreed.  I called Battle Born, and the rep I spoke with also agreed that it was not necessary.  I suppose it depends on specifics of your coach to include wire gauge, fusing, alternator size, solar, etc.  I just replace my AGM batteries with two Battle Borns this weekend, along with a Victron SmartShunt.  The most current I saw from the alternator to the house batteries was 18amps.  Not a problem, but I'm going to keep an eye on it and may revisit the DC-DC charger issue.


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Engineerlt

Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2022, 11:07:43 am »
Hello Bobkbusch

I would wonder what happens when your batteries are down to say 15% or lower when the lithium battery voltage starts to drop. I think that this is where not having a DC to DC charge controller may be an issue. The alternator isn't going to put out a higher charge voltage until it sees the voltage of the lithium batteries drop, as they maintain a higher voltage through the discharge cycle.  This is also an issue that is corrected with the DC to DC charger.  It takes that higher voltage of the lithium batteries and presents it to the alternator as a lower voltage to encourage a higher charge rate. This allows for a faster charge rate while using the alternator, plus ensures your batteries charge parameters aren't exceeded.

I think that the benefits of the DC to DC charge controller are faster charging and controlled charging within the batteries parameters. Thus the life of the batteries should be extended or at least reach there rated longevity. I like the 30 amp Victron and the 40 amp Renogy.  The only reason I like the Renogy is because I have had such good luck with my Renogy solar system.

Just some food for thought, your a step or two ahead of me. Still looking at batteries, not sure which ones I really want. I do think that the first thing I will do is install the DC to DC converter.

Very Respectfully
Lance

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2 Frazzled

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2022, 12:20:23 pm »
...What is the factory install for this?...

I recently traded my 2014 2350 for a slightly used (3500 miles) 2022 2552.  The 2552 has a factory installed Progressive Dynamics PD4575TB converter/charger.  It is a 50 amp coach and there is an easily accessible dip switch on the front of the distribution panel to switch from a Lead Acid to a Lithium charge profile.

The inverter is a Xantrex Freedom X 2000W pure sine wave inverter.  To be honest, I don't even know if the microwave is plugged into an inverted outlet.

The factory installed solar charge controller is a 30amp Samlex SCC-30AB that has dip switches to set a lithium charge profile.

There is no DC-DC charge controller between the alternator and house batteries, which is possibly an issue for lithium batteries because of their low internal resistance.  That is a complicated discussion, but Phoenix told me a DC-DC charge controller isn't necessary and also said Battle Born visited the factory and agreed.  I called Battle Born, and the rep I spoke with also agreed that it was not necessary.  I suppose it depends on specifics of your coach to include wire gauge, fusing, alternator size, solar, etc.  I just replace my AGM batteries with two Battle Borns this weekend, along with a Victron SmartShunt.  The most current I saw from the alternator to the house batteries was 18amps.  Not a problem, but I'm going to keep an eye on it and may revisit the DC-DC charger issue.

Sounds like the system we are looking for. I'm not worried about the microwave working on inverter but it would be nice if our coffee pot did. Stranding in the kitchen ladling boiling water into the drip pot isn't horrible but it would be nice to avoid it (and stop carrying two coffee pots). We successfully ran the electric pot a few times on our inverter but it usually screams so we stopped.

Does your pure sine wave inverter stay on all the time? I remember reading a post where someone upgraded to the pure sine wave inverter long ago and it would turn itself back on thus drawing from the batteries even when not needed
John, Holly, and sometimes Chloe.
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bobkbusch

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2022, 09:40:01 am »
Lance, I think your concerns about DC-DC charging are valid.  I just installed the Battle Born batteries last week, so I have limited observations on how it is working.  The Battle Borns ship with a 100% SOC, so I have not seen what happens with alternator charging at a low SOC.  So far, all I've done is turn on my inverter and run a number of items to create a load on the batteries, then start the vehicle.  I monitored the load with my Victron SmartShunt as a 12amp draw and I think I recall the battery voltage drop to 13.1v.  When the alternator kicked in, I saw a 6amp charge which nets out at an 18amp charge rate, so not a concern.

Again, both the factory and Battle Born told me a DC-DC charger isn't necessary.  Perhaps they assume the battery should never drop in voltage enough to be a concern, because of my solar, generator, wire resistance or whatever, I'm not sure.  In any case, I'm still considering a DC-DC charger for the reasons you mentioned.  I looked under the hood and figuring out the wiring for the charger will be a bit of a challenge for me.

"2 Frazzled", I haven't even camped with my new 2552 yet, but so far, I haven't seen the inverter turn on, unless I manually turn it on.

On a side note, I bought a Bluetti AC200 Max portable power station.  It has LiFePO4 batteries like the Battle Borns, 2048Wh capacity, and a 2200W pure sine wave inverter.  It even has a 30amp RV plug.  If my microwave isn't on an inverted outlet, I can just plug it in to the Bluetti (I bought a 6' 20amp extension cord).  The Bluetti costs not much more than 2 Battle Borns and doubles my capacity.  Of course, it takes up some space, but I think I'm going to like having it with all the outlets, inverter, and convenient wireless phone charging.  I bought a portable solar panel to keep it charged, and this might come in handy if I'm parked in the shade - I can move my portable panel to the sun and keep charging the Bluetti.





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parkgt

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2022, 07:20:11 pm »

 
The multiplus-II  has all the same features, a 3000W true sine wave inverter and it will take and feed both hot legs of the 50 amp system if that is how your coach is wired.
 So get this they both have a dedicated way to charge the starting battery, like a Trik-l-start.  If your running your generator and the load gets to high the inverter will supplement it. Everything is adjustable in the software, you can monitor via Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, touch screen monitor, analog monitor.


Thanks for the info on the multiplus-II,  I have and use the Victron stuff in my current Sprinter and really like it. 

Lance wouldn't the 3000W require upgrading the wiring from the batteries to the inverter?  How about to the distribution panel.  I am considering a 3000 to run one of the two A/C (Houghtons will be used) units.  Will probably need at least 300 ah lithium set up.   I have read that current in-rush can be a problem for some inverters with large banks and draws.

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Engineerlt

Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2022, 06:29:33 am »
Hello ParkGt
Yes the wiring from the batteries to the inverter would require upgrading for the additional amperage consumed by the larger inverter. I mentioned the Victron Multi-plus II with the 3000 watt inverter if you wanted the option to power all the equipment on both hot legs of a 50Amp system if that is how your coach is wired. The Multi-plus 2000 would be a good fit in either wire configuration 30 amp or 50 amp coach service it just wouldn't allow for both hot legs of the 240V 50 amp service to be powered at the same time. If your coach is 30 amp like mine then the Multi-plus 2000 is the choice. I believe in the 50 amp service coaches PC only puts the additional A/C on the additional hot leg.  So everything else operates from one leg of the 50amp service. So if you use the 2000 watt inverter you should be able to configure it to run one A/C.

Wiring to the distribution panel if it is a 50 amp service and you are installing the Multi-Plus-II would require a wiring upgrade on the 120V side to the electrical distribution panel to adjust for the higher output amperage of the 3000 watt inverter and adding the extra hot leg to make it a 240V supply. (assuming original inverter installed by PC is 120V)

Now that you mentioned lithium batteries there is an issue you need to be fully aware of and that is the batteries BMS capabilities. If you are using a 2000 watt inverter you can expect the amperage draw to be - watts divided by voltage = amperage there for 2000/12.8=156 amps. So you need to make sure that the BMS can handle this amperage so you can achieve the 2000 watts from the inverter. The 3000 watt inverter, 3000/12.8= 234 amps.

I mention the BMS capabilities because you can get Lithium batteries in 300 amp hour ratings with as low as a 100 amp max discharge rating. I am sure that you are aware if you build your system using say BattleBorn 100ah batteries they have a maximum discharge rating of 100 amps.  If you installed 3 of these batteries in parallel you would get a combined 300 amp max discharge rating. This would allow for full output of the 3000 watt inverter.

Houghton A/Cs do not require a 3000 watt inverter to operate. A straight cool unit consumes around 13 amps,  so 120 volts X 13 amps = 1560 watts, which would be covered by a 2000 watt inverter. I use a Houghton straight cool unit as an example as my Houghton's are straight cool so I cannot comment on the heat pumps.

Very Respectfully
Lance
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 06:37:39 am by Engineerlt »

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parkgt

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Re: Request for comments on newer Inverter + Converter
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2022, 01:52:51 pm »
Lance thanks for the info.  The unit we are getting has two A/C units that will be replaced by the Houghton/RecPro 3400.  The unit is supposed to have the Xantrex 2000 PSW.  I will probably only put one A/C on the inverter side, I would still like to have the headroom of the 3000w. 
 
With out the unit at hand it is hard to see what all is required, such as cable run lengths and access to pull them.  Also need to see how much battery we can get in without going to more remote places with cable runs.

The workmanship on your install looks great.  May want to get with you on components and suppliers.  My last electrical upgrade was on a Sprinter B and did not involve the high current flows.