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Still here and now with a inverter question

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2 Lucky

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Still here and now with a inverter question
« on: December 27, 2021, 11:22:24 am »
 hithere
I'm still here, been lurking in the shadows. Thought I had a buyer twice but they didn't want to give me what I feel it's worth. And I'm really glad I didn't sell it and downsize to a small pull-behind or conversion van. Even happier is Sue and the two dogs and the cat since we're living in it for a month or two in Tucson.
 >:(And you thought you were rid of me heartshower

So the inverter fans have developed a mind of their own sometimes running normally and other times, usually in the middle of the night, making quite a racket until I give a good hard slap on the panel it is mounted to under the bed. I recalled from other previous posts to just turn off the breaker to the inverter at night.
My question...is there any reason to even have the inverter breaker turned on until you actually want to use the inverter say for the TV or other outlets when not on shore power?
I'm sure I'm missing the obvious.
Dougn
PS
I just discovered one oddity... with the inverter breaker turned off the GFI outlets in the kitchen and bathroom don't work. Second question why would that be?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2021, 02:05:58 pm by 2 Lucky »
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donc13

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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2021, 10:58:30 pm »
2nd question first... Because the inverter supplies the kitchen gfi, bathroom gfi, TV outlets and outside 120v outlets via its "rollover" switch that selects shore power or inverter power (the default) for those outlets.  That rollover works on 12v DC.

Instead, just turn the inverter off, leave the breakers on, then those outlets will feed from shore power.   If not on shore power, then still just turn the inverter off at night... And yea, nothing will be powered (except the CO/propane detector... They will be powered) but you're sleeping so no biggie.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2021, 11:03:37 pm by donc13 »
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2021, 01:49:07 am »
Our inverter fans do the same thing and the inverter is seldom on (off at the panel, did not mess with breakers). They've been doing this for over a year so it's not an end of life thing for the unit (as a repair shop told us). The factory told us to vacuum them out. We did, repeatedly, no noticible improvement. We asked if we can blow them out with canned air. Doug wasn't keen on it but said we could try if we were careful. Tried, thought it worked for a day or two, then back to the ghost wailing. No good advice. We have reached the point we don't notice it much anymore but we're full time so we've had many nights of training to get used to it.
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2021, 11:56:59 am »
Quote from: donc13 on December 27, 2021, 10:58:30 pm
2nd question first... Because the inverter supplies the kitchen gfi, bathroom gfi, TV outlets and outside 120v outlets via its "rollover" switch that selects shore power or inverter power (the default) for those outlets.  That rollover works on 12v DC.

Instead, just turn the inverter off, leave the breakers on, then those outlets will feed from shore power.   If not on shore power, then still just turn the inverter off at night... And yea, nothing will be powered (except the CO/propane detector... They will be powered) but you're sleeping so no biggie.
Thanks  that all make sense. I never turn the inverter on unless I'm going to actually use it. I do see now that with the inverter breaker off that the only 110 outlet usable is behind the driver's seat.
I also discovered while looking under the bed this heat warped cover plate... that can't be a good sign.
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Engineerlt

Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2021, 04:08:10 pm »
Wow that looks like a fire waiting to happen. I would imagine you are overloading the inverters relay pass through relay.
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2021, 07:49:50 pm »
Quote from: Engineerlt on December 28, 2021, 04:08:10 pm
Wow that looks like a fire waiting to happen. I would imagine you are overloading the inverters relay pass through relay.
agreed.
Anybody have any suggestions on a good compatible pure sine wave inverter to replace this with. The house batteries are who knows how old, should I be thinking about switching to lithium at this point. We mostly boondock.
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2021, 07:51:14 pm »
Dougn,
Well, it certainly indicates it's getting too hot, which means those cooling fans need cleaned and/or replaced. If you can get that panel off easily, I wonder what's behind it.  I see the wiring for the remote panel but that's just low voltage wiring.

Humm.. Wanting to sell it, vs now wanting (or at least thinking) of a couple grand worth of upgrades is interesting.  In *my* experience, pure sine wave offers little advantage unless you are running sensitive electronic instruments.  Yes, modified sine vs pure sine draws a *little*bit more power, but not enough to overheat either the inverter or the switchover relay, especially since the switchover relay is part of the inverter itself so is designed with that in mind.

As to lithium batteries, strictly my opinion, they're not worth it.   You'll need a new converter/charger and ablut $1,000 worth of new batteries.  I have boondocked a lot (at race tracks) for 5 or 6 days at a time... BUT... that's also in the summer, where I have to run the generator a lot to keep the a/c on.  And at a racetrack, everybody is running a generator.

Don
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 08:08:43 pm by donc13 »
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2021, 08:48:13 am »
Could that furnace hose right underneath be causing that warp to the plastic.  Run the furnace and check the temp at that spot.
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2021, 09:09:38 am »
I have been very happy with our pair of 6V AGM batteries, 6.5 years and counting.  I had originally considered lithium but cost and charging issues brought me back to AGM technology which at the time of purchase, were twice the cost of flooded acid.

Like Tarnold mentions, maybe the heat from the furnace duct underneath is doing harm.

Like Donc13 says, if the unit has cooling fans, maybe they along with the internals need cleaning.  Compressed air works well for that.

I also wonder if removing the control panel (assumed for remote-mounting) changes internal air flow causing over-heating, much like the generator needing the access panel on and latched properly for proper cooling action.

All my comments are stated without specific knowledge of that unit.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 09:20:54 am by Ron Dittmer »
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2021, 01:33:45 pm »
Quote from: Engineerlt on December 28, 2021, 04:08:10 pm
I would imagine you are overloading the inverters relay pass through relay.

Quote from: donc13 on December 28, 2021, 07:51:14 pm

Well, it certainly indicates it's getting too hot, which means those cooling fans need cleaned and/or replaced. If you can get that panel off easily, I wonder what's behind it.

Dougn-------Just a couple comments for any value they might offer:
--While I guess it's possible the inverter's transfer relay could be overloading--it shouldn't be.  The transfer relay in the Xantrex Pro 1800 inverter is rated for 20 amps, and input to it is protected by a 20-amp breaker--which shouldn't allow current to exceed the rating of the component.
--What's behind that heat-warped panel that Don refers to is the connection terminals for AC Input and AC Output for the inverter.  That blank panel replaces the standard GFCI AC receptacles mounted on the face of the inverter, whenever the inverter is installed in a hard-wired installation.

The area where the panel is warped should not be a high-heat area from electrical sources in normal operation.  The electrical connections adjacent to it are AC (20-amp max) connections.  The high-current DC connections (250-amp+) are at the other end of the inverter.  If you can remove the panel and see inside, any AC arcing or issues creating enough heat to warp that panel should be clearly evident by smoked and arced evidence at the AC connection terminals.  If there is none, the distortion is most likely from either ambient heat, furnace duct heat, or a combination of the two.  That is also the side of the inverter opposite the exhaust fans--so it should normally be in the "cooler air" area.  One other consideration is that this inverter has both a Over-Temperature Shutdown Warning code (E07), and an Over-Temperature Shutdown code (E08), which show up with a yellow or red LED and readout on the display.  If the unit does actually go into OT shutdown, it must be reset by cycling the AC input breaker.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 01:50:47 pm by mikeh »
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2021, 06:32:42 pm »
If the cooling fan is in the back along with entry and exhaust air on that same end, then the big hole where the control panel was originally mounted, is not allowing air to circulate throughout the enclosure properly.  Maybe there is supposed to be a blank filler panel with a slot for the cable to pass through, specifically to close up the unit for proper cooling.

I would call Xantrex and ask.  Also ask for a new blank to replace the deformed one for the same reasoning.
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2021, 06:38:05 pm »
I just found the Xantex manual on line here.
http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Power-Inverters/PRO-Series-Inverters/975-0263-01-01_Rev-C(artwork).pdf
Apparently my theory does not apply.  Just make sure there is adequate air flow and the unit is not filled with dust.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 06:50:04 pm by Ron Dittmer »
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2021, 08:55:45 am »
Quote from: 2 Lucky on December 28, 2021, 11:56:59 am
Quote from: donc13 on December 27, 2021, 10:58:30 pm
2nd question first... Because the inverter supplies the kitchen gfi, bathroom gfi, TV outlets and outside 120v outlets via its "rollover" switch that selects shore power or inverter power (the default) for those outlets.  That rollover works on 12v DC.

Instead, just turn the inverter off, leave the breakers on, then those outlets will feed from shore power.   If not on shore power, then still just turn the inverter off at night... And yea, nothing will be powered (except the CO/propane detector... They will be powered) but you're sleeping so no biggie.
Thanks  that all make sense. I never turn the inverter on unless I'm going to actually use it. I do see now that with the inverter breaker off that the only 110 outlet usable is behind the driver's seat.
I also discovered while looking under the bed this heat warped cover plate... that can't be a good sign.


Dougn,

The more I look at that warped panel, the more I think that the connections underneath it have arched.  The furnace duct isn't the culprit for a few reasons (my opinion only) 1-if the duct was hot enough to melt/warp that panel, why wasn't the rest of the end cap, especially right next to that duct, warped also?  2- The furnace typically should output air at about 120 deg Fahrenheit.  Any hotter and you could burn yourself if you put your hand in front of a furnace vent outlet to check it, and the plastic vent outlet covers would warp also.  3-There is an overtemp cutoff in the furnace itself that should have shut the furnace down.  So I am convinced it's not the heat duct.
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Engineerlt

Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2021, 01:54:19 pm »
If you are in need of replacing the house batteries then upgrading to lithium makes good sense, seeing as you like to boondock. I have modified my battery compartment to accept an 8D battery. I can get a lithium 400ah battery in an 8D case. I currently have an 8D AGM 250 ah battery. It was only a 25ah upgrade from the 2ea GC2 batteries but the AGM is maintenance free. When I replace this battery it will be with a lithium 8D, it has over 3 times the usable power than a lead acid/AGM.

I have installed a WFCO 9855Lis converter which has a charging profile for lithium batteries, lead acid and AGM. You can pick-up the converter for under $200 on Ebay. I have also changed the the Xantrex 1800 modified sinewave inverter for a Magnum 2000W pure sinewave inverter. I can now run my microwave from the inverter. If you use the modified sinewave inverter, you run the risk of having issues in the circuitry of the microwave.

For me I believe if you plan on boondocking the upgrade to lithium is a must, and the addition of solar. I am using a Renogy 400w solar system with a 40amp MPPT controller.

Very Respectfully
Lance
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Re: Still here and now with a inverter question
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2022, 10:15:06 pm »
Thanks to everyone for the advice and ideas. I have basically left the inverter breaker off because we are shore powered at a friends place in Tucson. I've been busy the last few days replacing the cooling fan in my HP laptop...You have to take the whole thing apart to get to the fan, the absolute opposite of logical.  And they are ten times easier to take apart than put back together.
Now that I'm back online it is on to the inverter, take it out and clean and check connections.
Since we have solar, and I hate generator noise, and are rarely at places with electricity, I'm inclined to do the upgrade to pure sine wave and lithium battery. I'd love to have a microwave working off of batteries.
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