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Lithium Battery Installation

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fandj

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2021, 07:19:08 pm »
Smoke has been really bad in the parts of Montana and Wyoming I have been in.  It is raining today so hopefully that will extinguish some of the forest fires and clear up some of the smoke.

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2 Frazzled

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2021, 09:06:23 am »
Check these websites:
Fire.airnow.gov
Purpleair
InciWeb
Notes: 1) the smoke plumes on airnow might be ground level or up high while the sensors will show ground level conditions. 2) airnow and purpleair use the same sensors but airnow does a calculation with humidity to adjust their numbers so the two don't always match. 3) The sensors are current conditions but all this changes as the wind blows and shifts so we can go from clear skies with good air to choking on smoke in a few hours. N95 masks help if you have one.
John, Holly, and sometimes Chloe.
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fandj

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2021, 12:09:56 pm »
Just wanted to provide a brief report of actual field usage experience as it pertains to my installation of two 100 amp hour Battleborn Lithium batteries, two additional 100 watt solar panels for a total of 520 watts, Victron 100/30 solar controller, and a Victron smart shunt battery monitoring system.  This battery/solar system was described in earlier posts in this thread.

I just returned to Virginia following a two and a half month visit to the Montana/Wyoming area.  As expressed in the earlier posts my goals were to minimize generator usage, not rely on shore power, and have adequate power such that I was never in a position of running the batteries down below acceptable state of charge (15%), all of which to increase the ability to select sites without electrical hookup.

After the Lithium battery and additional solar panel installation the only time I had to run my generator was once a month for about 30 minutes to prevent carburetor fowling.  Also on a couple occasions for about 10 minutes I ran it in order to run the microwave.  With the lower humidity and lower higher elevation temperatures air conditioning was not needed thus no generator usage. The three roof vent fans and a portable 110 volt fan did a reasonable job of maintaining comfortable conditions.  Actually running the furnace for awhile in the morning before getting up felt pretty good.  The TV, DVD, surround sound system, charging various appliances and electronic gadgets required inverter battery power.  The use of shore 110v power was not required at any point.  State of charge in the Lithium batteries did not fall below about 75%.

I camped in campsites that had partial to full tree shading over part or most of the day. The maximum power from the 4 solar panels topped out at about 300 Watts.  I attributed the depressed power output to various factors.  These include tree shading, frequent moderate to heavy smoke due to forest fires, cloud cover, etc.  Various solar technical resources suggest that manufacture rated output is highly optimistic and are taken using standard laboratory conditions.  Some resources stated a more realistic panel output is about 75 to 80% of the panel rating.  Using these derate factors the output could be expected to go to 390 to 416 watts.  Given the ambient environmental conditions, the fact that because of the curvature of the PC roof each panel incident light angle is different, and that each panel has a small but notable output energy curve difference a further multi panel system derate is expected.  I do believe while some of these factors reduce the peak output they may work in favor of extending the period which power is produced.  I mention this should another contemplate adding multiple panels this may be useful in the design phase.

It is worthwhile to mention that prior to installing the Lithium batteries I considered adding more panels but decided they would provide little benefit in charging the lead acid golf cart batteries.  Frequently the internal resistance of the lead acid batteries throttled the output of original panels.  This throttling was expected and was later shown to only occur briefly when the Lithium units were at or very near 100% state of charge thus accepting essentially all the power from the expanded array system.

As mentioned in my earlier post I elected to use the PC supplied alternator charging system while driving. Looking at energy going into the coach batteries while driving it varies but typically is about 10 amps.  I have seen it as high as 17 amps.  My battery monitor shunt nets out demand and charge current, so I expect the alternator was providing about 20 amps or less to the coach batteries. This seems to be reasonable and at this time I do not have any plans to install a DC to DC converter.  Because of differences in PC wiring for the various models I would suggest getting a good estimate of alternator current to the Lithium batteries to prevent damage to the chassis electrical system.

In summary the installation of the Lithium batteries primarily and to a lesser extent the addition of two 100 watt solar panels allowed me to achieve my electrical goals.  Being able to Boondock with minimal dependence on the PC onboard generator and being able to use all the power I needed without fear of running out of battery power along with anticipated longer battery life has made this a worthwhile mod for me.  The enjoyment derived from the added flexibility of allowing me to stay in camp sites without hookups and not having to run the obnoxiously loud generator added positively to the overall camping experience.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 12:12:59 pm by fandj »

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2 Frazzled

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2021, 07:13:35 am »
Excellent write up. I know bits and pieces, like the potential alternator issue, but you've hit on quite a few points that should be useful to anyone thinking to upgrade to solar (like is). Who did the two installs?
John, Holly, and sometimes Chloe.
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Engineerlt

Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2021, 07:58:41 am »
I am glad to hear that your solar and lithium battery installation provided you with all your electrical needs. Your follow-up is very helpful to me and will help in me spending funds where needed to finish my set-up. I do have a couple questions for you, You said your solar system was 520 watts, would you say this was just adequate, under-performed or over-kill?  I ask this question as I have 400 watts currently was thinking of adding 2 more panels. Is there anything that you would change or increase? You also said you never took your batteries below 15%. How low did you actually run the batteries down?

The section on the DC to DC converter is very helpful as I was concerned over the possibility of overloading the alternator, but your findings seem to indicate that is not the case. This saves me from having to get a DC to DC converter up front and can actually be something added at a later time or possibly not at all.

Your time spent writing up your experience is extremely beneficial for me and I am sure others contemplating this solar/battery upgrade.
Thank-you
Very Respectfully
Lance



 

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fandj

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2021, 08:05:16 am »

2 Frazzled,

The original two solar panels were in part installed by Phoenix during the unit build.  I purchased and had the panels and 4 gauge welding wire shipped to Elkhart.  Phoenix mounted the two panels on the roof and run the wire from the roof to the area under the kitchen sink.  After taking delivery I completed the project by supplying and installing the solar controller and Victron power monitor.  At the time I ordered the PC (spring of 2016) the factory had limited experience in designing solar systems.  I did feel like they should know better how to mount the panels and it was certainly easier to run the wire before the cabinetry was installed.  This is the reason I elected to go as I did.


I did the recent Lithium upgrade, additional two panel installation, and the upgraded Victron controller and monitoring system.  The hardest part of this was getting over my concerns of how to best attach the panels to the roof.  I received a number of helpful comments here on the forum plus I was able to get information from the factory of how they mount the panels.  Knock on wood the panels appear to be securely attached and no leaks.  I inspected the mounting while out west and also after the 2,000+ mile trip back home.  Battleborn was very helpful in providing technical support for the charging components and proper settings on the monitor and controller.  They also have a lot of valuable information on their website. 

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keelhauler

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2021, 08:17:14 am »
Great article and discussion Fred.

I want to point out to all those considering adding panels that you must eliminate shadows or you won't get anywhere the output you think you should get. Google Solar array shadows to learn more. As Fred pointed out you need large wires from roof to the controller and to battery to eliminate the voltage drop  in the wiring.

The PC has very limited roof space to take this into account.

I actually had PC move my big Winegard antenna to the rear to eliminate that shadow, but your A/C is also a problem.



John

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fandj

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2021, 09:27:44 am »
Lance,


The lowest state of charge was about 75%, so at this point I am comfortable with the performance of the system based on the environmental conditions I experienced.  The West (Montana/Wyoming) as you may know in the summer doesn’t get a lot of rain.  We did get some rain but not the multi day episodes I have experienced in the Southeast.  Can’t say this with certainty but I expect I would still be above 15% after 2-3 days of monsoon.  For these events one would still have the generator to fall back on.  One item of note is the Lithium batteries can charge at a much higher rate than lead acid batteries thus the run time on the generator would be significantly less if a person was just using the generator to charge the batteries.   Two 100 ah Battleborn batteries can take up to 100 amps of charging.  I have a Progressive Dynamics 9270 converter that has a 70 amp capacity.  The other item of note is as you probably know to extend the life of lead acid batteries they need to be charged to 100% as soon as possible after use.  The Lithium batteries don’t have that requirement so if they are brought up for instance to 80 or 90 percent that is ok.


 As you probably know it takes very little shade to “kill” the output of a panel.  A shadow from a tree limb can pretty much take a panels power output down to near zero.  I chose to wire my panels in parallel so as limit the impact of shading.  If one panel is shaded and another is not at least one gets the power from the unshaded panel.  In a series configuration one shaded panel can negatively effect all the other panels.  There are benefits to series with lower amperage smaller wiring, etc.but where shading (shadows) can be expected the parallel configuration should perform better. 


In addition to providing higher theoretical output from more panel area, I think there is a diversity benefit to having multiple panels.  In a perfect world fewer panels should perform at higher maximum output than multiple panels with the same total rated capacity.  Useable energy produced from multiple panels in the “real world” I  believe is higher due  to shading, orientation, etc.

As to whether your 400 watt array is adequate I can’t really answer that directly.  My biggest improvement came from changing the Lead Acid OEM batteries over to Lithium.  My suggestion would be to first make the change over to Lithium if this is something you are already considering.  In the change over process I would keep in the back of my mind that I may need to go with more solar in the future and plan accordingly.  After the Lithium install you will need to see if this change gets you where you want to be electrically or would having extra array capacity be justified based on where and how you camp.  One last comment should you decide to pursue the additional panel option.  You may already be aware of this but it is important that all the panels are as close as possible to the same max open circuit and maximum power voltage as practical to optimize power from the combined array.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 09:37:11 am by fandj »

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GA Steve

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2021, 09:04:51 pm »
I also agree thlis is a VERY informative thread.  Thanks, Fandj for greatly helping the rest of us understand how this can increase battery effectiveness albeit at a cost.

The first thing that struck me was defining the difference between Car Lithium batteries and say Battleborn in terms of their chemistries.  We have all seen the now-famous car flammability of Tesla and Chevy Volt Lithium batteries which causes pause.

Your statement:  "The Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry is more stable than what is being used in electric propelled vehicles (Lithium-Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt) and is considered much safer." was news to me.  That is why these forums are so important!!!

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fandj

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Re: Lithium Battery Installation
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2021, 07:23:16 am »
While essentially all batteries we would consider for use in our RVs have experienced catastrophic failures including lead acid batteriy explosions a brief review of internet state Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are safer than the Lithium Ion batteries that contains Nickel. I found this article https://techcrunch.com/2021/07/28/what-teslas-bet-on-iron-based-batteries-means-for-manufacturers/ that said Tesla is going to be switching some of it’s car models over to Lithium Iron Phosphate battery chemistry.  How much safety is influencing this decision I don’t know. 

I believe most battery catastrophic failures are due to abuse and subjecting the batteries to conditions they were not designed for.  Lead acid battery use depend on the end user to make sure they are not abused.  The Battleborn and some other battery Lithium manufacturers include internal circuitry that shuts the battery down if one attempts to use it outside it’s design envelope which add another layer of protection.

I am certainly no expert on battery chemistry and current technology but for my use I feel as safe with the Battleborn units as I did the previous golf cart lead acid batteries.  One should read and follow all the safety directions for whatever battery they use.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 07:31:43 am by fandj »