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PC wheelbases

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DGC

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PC wheelbases
« on: December 28, 2020, 05:02:57 pm »
Hello, looking through the various models very few seem to have wheelbases that match the Ford E450 specs provided on the Ford site. Do RV builders have the frames lengthened to meet their needs?

Thanks
DGC
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mikeh

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2020, 05:15:27 pm »
DCG,

In the Phoenix Cruiser case: precisely.

Phoenix uses a vendor certified by Ford to weld in frame extensions as required to meet their wheelbase design for the various models.  Ford certification of the vendor is required to maintain warranty provisions.

Mike
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WillLloyd

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2020, 05:25:55 pm »
And fortunately Ford, or at least my dealer, honors that warranty. Because it cost almost $2000 to repair the driveshaft alignment issues that those certified morons created.
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2020, 08:37:17 pm »
Quote from: DGC on December 28, 2020, 05:02:57 pm
Hello, looking through the various models very few seem to have wheelbases that match the Ford E450 specs provided on the Ford site. Do RV builders have the frames lengthened to meet their needs?

Thanks
DGC
I "get" your question because you are where I was in early 2007.

Most RV manufactures adjust the wheel base through a 3rd party Ford E-Series certified chassis modifying outfitter.  Ford has a documented process that they must follow.  Along with the cutting of the main frame (then adding steel reinforcements), the change in wheel base affects the following systems which as I understand, are supplied by Ford.

- wire harness
- brake lines
- parking brake cable
- fuel lines
- exhaust pipe
- drive shaft

In the case with our 2007 PC-2350, it utilizes an unmodified 158" wheel base with no such adjustments.  This was not a determining factor, only a comforting factor.

I do wish our PC was built utilizing the Ford stock 176" wheel base for a multitude of benefits, but the one wheel well might encroach into the bathroom.  A 2" step up would make it work, but I'd surely want to keep the shower at the current elevation.
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keelhauler

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2020, 04:30:50 pm »
I like the short overhang that PC uses, which requires the long wheelbases.
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DGC

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2020, 05:29:54 pm »
Thanks Everyone, I did not notice this when we were just browsing but now that we are digging in and really looking closer at floor plans and setup this came to the forefront. Since they are investing the time and money to do so I wonder why they would not extended longer and have less overhang, there must be a formula that tends to work best I guess. Looking at some RV's their formulas are not quite up to snuff I would think as they tend to be very long in the tail. :)

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2020, 12:38:16 am »
Quote from: DGC on December 29, 2020, 05:29:54 pm
Since they are investing the time and money to do so I wonder why they would not extended longer and have less overhang, there must be a formula that tends to work best I guess. Looking at some RV's their formulas are not quite up to snuff I would think as they tend to be very long in the tail. :)
I believe each floor plan determines the location of the wheel wells, hence the various wheel bases.  You don't want a wheel well to be a trip hazard.  There are other hidden considerations as well, from gas fill to plumbing and wiring.

Still, a longer wheel base with a shorter rear over-hang would have been nice for us with our 2350.  We addressed the consequences through various suspension upgrades, and as of late, a change to softer front coil springs.  The only benefit I see to our short 158" wheel base (compared to the 176") is maneuverability.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 12:44:13 am by Ron Dittmer »
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emcee

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2020, 02:01:16 pm »
Quote from: DGC on December 29, 2020, 05:29:54 pm
...there must be a formula that tends to work best I guess. Looking at some RV's their formulas are not quite up to snuff I would think as they tend to be very long in the tail. :)

The formula is wheelbase to length according to RVCG (https://rv.org/blogs/news/short-wheelbases-and-accidents-go-hand-in-hand). "To get the wheelbase-to-length ratio of a motor home, simply divide the wheelbase by the length of the vehicle. Under 51% is extremely dangerous; 51% to 54% is dangerous under many road condition and not adequate for general safety; 55% to 56% is marginal; 57% and over is usually steady on the road under most conditions."

The wheelbase to length ratio on my 2004 PC is over 60%. The wheelbase to length ratio on my previous coach (2014 Winnebago 31KE class A) was 51% (also about 2' taller). After many modifications the handling on the Winnebago was improved to "not dangerous anymore". The 2004 PC doesn't need any mods to improve handling as it is already comfortably safe.
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2020, 07:46:35 pm »
Quote from: emcee on December 30, 2020, 02:01:16 pm
Quote from: DGC on December 29, 2020, 05:29:54 pm
...there must be a formula that tends to work best I guess. Looking at some RV's their formulas are not quite up to snuff I would think as they tend to be very long in the tail. :)

The formula is wheelbase to length according to RVCG (https://rv.org/blogs/news/short-wheelbases-and-accidents-go-hand-in-hand). "To get the wheelbase-to-length ratio of a motor home, simply divide the wheelbase by the length of the vehicle. Under 51% is extremely dangerous; 51% to 54% is dangerous under many road condition and not adequate for general safety; 55% to 56% is marginal; 57% and over is usually steady on the road under most conditions."

The wheelbase to length ratio on my 2004 PC is over 60%. The wheelbase to length ratio on my previous coach (2014 Winnebago 31KE class A) was 51% (also about 2' taller). After many modifications the handling on the Winnebago was improved to "not dangerous anymore". The 2004 PC doesn't need any mods to improve handling as it is already comfortably safe.
Our 2007 PC-2350 wheel base is 158" and over-all length is 23'-8".  According to your calculator, the ratio is 55.63% which is considered marginal.  That would explain why I sought all the suspension upgrades and changes to improve handling.  I consider it all-good now.  Still I feel for the sake of "weight distribution", it would have been better to have the Ford-stock 176" wheel base to shift some of the weight more forward onto the front axle.  Our front axle is so lightly loaded (amplified without the weight of a slide-out) that I was able to swap the front coil springs to lower-rated ones to soften the ride and to lower the front a little bit.  Prior to the change, the front of our PC had always sat a bit high.  I imagine model 2100 is worse yet.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 07:54:28 pm by Ron Dittmer »
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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2020, 09:14:17 pm »
Thanks for the RV wheelbase to length ratio tables,  it is a great basis for calculating RV handling characteristics.  But it ignores the inevitable fluctuating weight distribution factor (re trailer tongue weight, holding tanks, cargo loading, etc.)

If the cab occupants would simply eat my wife's holiday seasonal ( incredible and frighteningly addicting) sticky-bun cinnamon rolls on a daily basis,  there would be no worry of over loading the rear of the coach, only the real and present danger of overloading the rears of the cab inhabitants.

Happy New Year!
Dougn
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DGC

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Re: PC wheelbases
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2021, 03:02:27 pm »
Quote from: emcee on December 30, 2020, 02:01:16 pm
Quote from: DGC on December 29, 2020, 05:29:54 pm
...there must be a formula that tends to work best I guess. Looking at some RV's their formulas are not quite up to snuff I would think as they tend to be very long in the tail. :)

The formula is wheelbase to length according to RVCG (https://rv.org/blogs/news/short-wheelbases-and-accidents-go-hand-in-hand). "To get the wheelbase-to-length ratio of a motor home, simply divide the wheelbase by the length of the vehicle. Under 51% is extremely dangerous; 51% to 54% is dangerous under many road condition and not adequate for general safety; 55% to 56% is marginal; 57% and over is usually steady on the road under most conditions."

The wheelbase to length ratio on my 2004 PC is over 60%. The wheelbase to length ratio on my previous coach (2014 Winnebago 31KE class A) was 51% (also about 2' taller). After many modifications the handling on the Winnebago was improved to "not dangerous anymore". The 2004 PC doesn't need any mods to improve handling as it is already comfortably safe.
[/quote

Thanks emcee, this makes a lot of sense when I think back 30 years to my first big (well larger boat), we ordered and pickup a 23 ft bow rider but were seriously thinking in a couple of years we would go for a 26 ft cuddy so we purchased a HD tandem trailer good for up to ~ 26 or 27 feet. Well with the lighter bow rider the axles being too far forward on the trailer made for a very poor handling combo, somewhat lifting the back of the f250 4X4 when a quick stop was required. I did not trailer much a good thing, eventually a visit to the dealer whom was a couple of hrs away resolved the issue. As soon as I mentioned what I had experienced he said lets see the mechanic that setup the trailer, low and behold the mechanic said he was not informed of the "smaller" boat that the trailer was being used to haul. A couple of hrs and the axles moved rearwards and re-aligned and on the test drive it was like night and day could not even tell the boat was behind the truck.
I assume similar physics applies to my boat trailer issue, well this helps to narrow down choices as I would like to have a fairly decent handling rig as it is maid for traveling. :-)
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