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2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

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Volkemon

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2019, 09:31:36 am »
Like AC noise,  ride quality can be a 'hard to define' issue. Whats fine for one person is intolerable for another.

So... I was thinking of how to have a 'standard' that could be used, without having to resort to expensive dedicated equipment.

There is an app for that!   And most if not all of us use cellphones.

Article from 2017 on it:  https://highways.today/2017/02/01/roadbounce-app-measures-road-roughness-driving-comfort-go/

Home site:  https://www.roadbounce.com/  (android link here, no Apple one seen...)

Current listing in the google app store -  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.definitics.roadbouncesocial&hl=en_US

Did not see one for Apple anywhere..... any Apple people please post a link if there is one.


If we had this app on a phone, and all agreed to set it on the center console in a drink holder, we could have a data set that could be helpful. Now when someone is wondering how their ride quality matches up to other campers (or even their cars!) we can have objective answers, instead of the current 'butt seismograph' method used now.   roflol

After a while, we might even have data on the same roads from multiple PC's, and REALLY see what the difference is.  Granted, the data gathered wont be *identical* in quality due to variances in phones, but I feel it will be MUCH more accurate and repeatable than our current method.

Passing thought.   :)(:
""You want to save money on travel, drive a Prius and stay at motel 6""  Forum Member Joseph


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mikeh

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2019, 10:18:41 am »
Like AC noise,  ride quality can be a 'hard to define' issue. Whats fine for one person is intolerable for another.

Absolutely true, Randy.  And your proposal is a unique way to insert some data-based reasoning into this issue.  I have been a little surprised by the discussions and concerns with several of the more "subjective" areas of PC performance--A/C noise, generator noise, and ride quality being three of them.  Being a relatively new PC (and RV) owner, I was apprehensive about all of these areas based on my long-time review of this forum before I bought--and in each case I have been pleasantly surprised with the actual results with my unit.  Maybe I'm just a little more tolerant (or "too easy"), or maybe my 450--2552 is in a little more of a sweet spot on ride than some of the lighter units, but I have been pretty happy in each case with what I've experienced.
In any case, I have always turned to data when possible to help resolve questions or problems, so I hope that you're successful in getting some input from this.  Unfortunately I'm Apple, so unless I can turn up an app (I'll look) I may not be able to contribute.  But any movement from the necessarily subjective discussions on this and other topics to more objective information would at least provide another way to evaluate the issue.

All the best,      Mike

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2019, 10:31:42 am »
There is an old saying ď If you canít measure it, you canít manage itĒ.  I think this works here as well.

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Joseph

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2019, 10:51:16 am »
Ac noise being mentioned. For that there is a easy reference point of comparison. With the penguin on high, I have yet to be in a class c where you could watch the tv without using surround sound to be able to hear it.  With the Houghton on high we have not needed the surround sound at all. Also we just got back from a 9000 mile trip. Everywhere we went people complained about the ac noise; we hadnít asked, just in conversation on how are you enjoying your trip type talk.  Everyone who went inside our Pc with the houghton wanted the info and contact for advanced rv. To add to that I wear hearing aids and my better half has excellent hearing so both bases are covered there as well.  So itís not as subjective as one might think as there is a very easy point of comparison. 

I have my tires at 62 lbs and Iíve tried less and more, more was worse. Ive tried lowering raising weight, no help and stupid idea to think one would have to adjust weight before every trip. Damn  near every bridge joint we come to the jarring is so severe everything in the cabinets is tossed, dishes and the like.   I wish there was an easy point of comparison as the AC has but I havenít figured that out yet.

For what ever reason it seems people want to look for an easy way to dismiss an issue away. Compare it to a different model, say the E350 or a class A or the drivers tolerance. The fact is the E450 has a jarring ride unless itís on very good roads. Itís not a Pc thing, itís a E450 thing. Iíd be happy to take anyone for a demo ride to awaken there senses. Next time I load her up for a trip anyone in the area is welcome to come see and hopefully have knowledge of a cure.

Koni claims they made the fsd to address the E450 suspension issue. In my case they didnít help but maybe I got a bad set. Point being however that this is enough of a known issue that Koni goes after the market to address this specific issue.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 11:57:11 am by Joseph »

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mikeh

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2019, 12:21:13 pm »
Joseph,

I'm not suggesting that the Houghton units don't provide a major reduction in A/C noise---everything I've read about them verify that they are a remarkable improvement.  Since PC is willing to install them now (at least, Jim Godfrey has said that he is getting two in his build that's currently underway), I would certainly attempt to get them installed if I were building my unit today.  Again, I guess it's the "subjective" thing--the two Dometic units that I have are loud, but aren't as bad as I expected--and haven't been an issue for me.
Similarly, I have been quite satisfied with the ride quality of my 2552 on the 450.  Road conditions certainly make a difference (and I prefer smooth roads!), but I've been running my tires at placard pressure (75 and 80), and haven't felt the need to attempt a reduction.

All the best,       Mike

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Volkemon

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2019, 12:22:59 pm »
Ac noise being mentioned. For that there is a easy reference point of comparison. With the penguin on high, I have yet to be in a class c where you could watch the tv without using surround sound to be able to hear it.  With the Houghton on high we have not needed the surround sound at all. Also we just got back from a 9000 mile trip. Everywhere we went people complained about the ac noise; we hadnít asked, just in conversation on how are you enjoying your trip type talk.  Everyone who went inside our Pc with the houghton wanted the info and contact for advanced rv. To add to that I wear hearing aids and my better half has excellent hearing so both bases are covered there as well.  So itís not as subjective as one might think as there is a very easy point of comparison. 

I have my tires at 62 lbs and Iíve tried less and more, more was worse. Ive tried lowering raising weight, no help and stupid idea to think one would have to adjust weight before every trip. Damn  near every bridge joint we come to the jarring is so severe everything in the cabinets is tossed, dishes and the like.   I wish there was an easy point of comparison as the AC has but I havenít figured that out yet.

For what ever reason it seems people want to look for an easy way to dismiss an issue away. Compare it to a different model, say the E350 or a class A or the drivers tolerance. The fact is the E450 has a jarring ride unless itís on very good roads. Itís not a Pc thing, itís a E450 thing. Iíd be happy to take anyone for a demo ride to awaken there senses. Next time I load her up for a trip anyone in the area is welcome to come see and hopefully have knowledge of a cure.

The AC noise is EASY to quantify...its called a dB (Decibel) meter. Apps available quite readily. 

It is somewhat interesting you say " So itís not as subjective ..."" and then give only subjective examples.    No doubt in my mind the AC is markedly quieter, and in an obvious way.  But a quantitative example would be " My old one was 110dB and the new one is 45db" (yes, I know these are extremely unlikely readings)  which anyone can replicate, not just "It was so much quieter they wanted a phone number" . BOTH are true statements, but one subjective and the other objective.

Not dismissing the HUGE advantage in any way of that absolutely marvelous AC unit, but just putting that big difference into terms that can be measured repeatedly and compared accurately by anyone.

And even more subjective things... ""The fact is the E450 has a jarring ride unless itís on very good roads."" ...well, MikeH's 'butt seismograph'  must be calibrated differently than most..  :lol  ""Maybe I'm just a little more tolerant (or "too easy"), or maybe my 450--2552 is in a little more of a sweet spot on ride than some of the lighter units, but I have been pretty happy in each case with what I've experienced.""    (WH)  Hard to say...  but if he and someone else had the same app, and both had data from I-10 (or some other road in common) anyone could see from the data if there was any quantitative difference between the rides! 

Same thing with my rig and RonD's 2350.  Except that mine has that abomination known as a 'slide' they are pretty much identical. ( I am teasing you Ron!   :-D  I used the other big reaction word, 'AC', so wanted to hit all the bases)

He had to add many aftermarket suspension pieces to make the handing of his coach feel safe. They worked so well he is a staunch advocate for them, and feels that they are near necessary for a good handling coach. And there is nothing in his results that would suggest otherwise. But here I am, towing a tandem trailer at higher speeds, and I am very pleased with the handling and ride. LIke MikeH, I would say ""Maybe I'm just a little more tolerant (or "too easy"), or maybe my E350-2350 is in a little more of a sweet spot on ride than some of the other units, but I have been pretty happy in each case with what I've experienced.""

 ""For what ever reason it seems people want to look for an easy way to dismiss an issue away."" well...sure!  Who doesnt like an easy quick answer?!?  But this topic is far from easily dismissed, I have seen solutions from $100-$10,000 proposed!   Its just the idea that with real data, real solutions are easier to determine. Or as it was put so well,

There is an old saying ď If you canít measure it, you canít manage itĒ. 

Lets measure it, see if we can work together even when we are far apart, and come to a solution! Or find there is no solution and its all subjective.  :)(:


I have the app installed on my phone, but cant find it.  roflol  I need a teenager to assist...


Gonna be interesting. I will scout out a few good rough roads, and be able to do before and after comparisons.  See EXACTLY what 2" drop and 15% lower rate does for the ride in front, for example. Besides looking cool.  ;)  (I know...subjective!)  Not a 'Feels really good now, and I think its tighter in the turns! ' report.  A "over the same road, I experienced a 20% drop in the force of the bumps in the cab" report. 

Another 'want to do' experiment once I can measure accurately...

Take the bottom mount off the front shocks, zip tie them out of the way, and CAREFULLY try the bumpy road again... how much does the shock contribute to ride stiffness?   I see many references for 'upgrading' to KYB/KONI etc.   That was a big deal in the VW world, and KYB GAS-A-JUST were supposedly 'The KIng.' ALL the articles said so.  They were 'performance firm' and did increase road feel!   Well... My butt liked the silky ride of the Monroe-matic, a 'cheap / common' shock with none of the sexy European name appeal... and I sold a lot of them (Monroe-matics) to fellow bus owners after I ditched my KYB's. Thats in a vehicle where you sit ON the front wheel, and NOT known for handling, so ride quality is pretty easy to feel.  Be interested to see if the MM shock on the E350 gives measurable differences. And ~$40 for a pair, wont break the bank finding out.




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Sarz272000

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2019, 01:55:34 pm »
We had a  30 foot Sunline travel trailer that had ducted a/c. It was loud on high but quiet on low fan speed.  The PC air fan seems to have two settings; high and higher.  If the PC air fan would have a lower setting that could make a big difference on noise.  I have been in a Coachhouse with the air on. CH has ducted air.  But the noise was loud like the PC.

Does the Houghton have a low air fan speed?

Ron

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Joseph

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2019, 05:58:50 pm »
I have decibel readings but most arenít interested in those readings. As far a as subjective goes as AC as a reference ... anyone who has experienced the houghton in mine has been amazed. That being said they are not perfect, they too have a con or two. One being that are not a good option on larger Rvís where the driver wants to run the gen and have a ac unit running.  These have two matched speed balanced fans so at highway speeds they will throw a error code. Doesnít hurt but they wonít run due to it. 

I will not recommend this ac to anyone. I wouldnít own another rv with roof mount ac without houghton but I wonít recommend it to anyone else.


As far as a rough ride. On this trip we had two drawers, one was empty that the bottom of the drawers dropped out. Of course part of the problem is regarding build quality considering the drawers are stapled together. None the less thatís the kind of hammering the suspension in mine gives. If your rides smooth, Iím both happy for you and wish mine did.

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jim.godfrey

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2019, 10:03:48 pm »
Here's a bit of data with comparisons of the Houghton vs. Penquin and Coleman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKTU641d7lE

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Volkemon

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2019, 06:16:14 am »
Here's a bit of data with comparisons of the Houghton vs. Penquin and Coleman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKTU641d7lE

 roflol

I accept full responsibility for the derailment of this thread with the mention of 'AC noise' a few posts back. Sorta like mentioning the Klan or Antifa,  :help

..

I am thinking of ordering my new 2350 with an extra slide and two water tanks under the bed.... any advice?

Counting on you Ron.*.......... I dont want to go to politics..  :beg


Um....How about {insert favorite sports team here} playing like they are?  Huh? Whats their chances this year?


Whats rougher... the ride in a E450 or the medicare approval process?  :lol

I am STILL looking for that app on my phone...  >( I can TIG coke cans together, but not get this app on my smartphone.  (WH)

 heartshower HAPPY SATURDAY folks!  tymote  Hope its a blessed day for all.  ((hug))


:-D  Dont you DARE take that as an insult Ron, you know its a friendly joke.  :)(:  Like asking me for a brief reply.... hi5
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2019, 02:27:30 pm »
 :) Volkemon :)
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RJW365

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2019, 01:12:11 pm »
It sounds as if I may be able to achieve a "softer" ride in my 2350/E-450 by running tires below maximum inflation.  Based on my weight ticket (attached) and load table here - https://www.goodyearrvtires.com/pdfs/rv_inflation.pdf -it seems I should easily be able to run fronts at 55-60# and rear dualies at 65#.  I'm wondering if anyone else is/has done this and what the results in ride comfort, handling and/or tire life were for you?

Thanks everyone for your posts and comments.  I went to a CAT Scale yesterday and my 2019 E450 2350 has 3600LB in the front and 8720LB in the rear.  Total 12,320. (full water tank, empty gray and black)
So I guess I need to review the previous chart provided and determine the correct air pressure in front and rear vs going by the place card info? 
Also, it appears because I have to have 90LB in my rear heavy duty air bags to keep them off the inside block (per Bob at Elkhart Hitch).  The rear it not sagging and when you go over a long dip, you can tell the rear air bags are helping, so not convince they are contributing to the overall rough ride especially since most of the rough is experienced in the front.  Hard to say.  I plan to call Elkhart Hitch this morning and share the rear weight and see if he has any other comments related to the bags.
If you own model 2350 of any model year with or without a slide out, and you are putting in the maximum 80 PSI in your tires, that will surely give you a ride of torture to you and your house.  The only benefit to having so much air in the tires will be for improved fuel economy.

RJW365's axle weight numbers seems right to me.  Your front axle is roughly 350 pounds heavier than ours due to the placement of your fresh water tank and also that you have a slide out.  Adjusting your tire pressure to match your actual load will make a really big difference for the better.  Just BE SURE to use a trusted tire gauge.   If it is not a digital tire gauge, I would compare it to one.

90 PSI in those additional rear axle-mounted air bags sounds like a whole lot of extra PSI yielding a much rougher ride.  I recall with our previous motor home, the air bags of a different brand required a minimum of 15 PSI to prevent damage to them.  If you have an E450, I advise to research the minimum requirement for your rear air bags and set them to that minimum during a good long trip, and see what you learn from that PSI setting.  If you own an E350 with lower-rated rear springs and are leveling your rig with air bags, that is a different situation.

About the Phoenix supplied tire label in the door jamb.  For our 2007 PC 2350, the recommendation is real close to my actual load requirement.  I think most of my troubles in past years was related to bad tire gauges providing inaccurate readings by as much as 9 PSI.

It is interesting that the front axle load rating for the E350 and E450 are identical.  They have identical coil springs and all.  The difference in their load rating is all related to the rear axle.  So if you have a short PC with a light weight front axle, your E350 or E450 front suspension is going to make for a rough ride up front.  So MAKE SURE your front tires are not over-inflated.

Ron, thanks for the reply and details! Much appreciated.  The tires installed on the 2019 2350 E450 are Hankook. Tire size is LT225/75R16E.  I will definitely be reviewing the tire pressure ratings and  have always used Acutire digital gauges. The pressure rating on the PC card is 75 front and 80 rear which is what I have inflated but appears this is part of my problem.   The heavy duty version of the air bags on my E450 may also be attributing to the problem. My previous RV 2018 2100 had the standard air bags and keeping 30LB was perfect.  Since we jumped to E450 they wanted to use the heavy bag with a safety block in the bag to prevent tear.  If less than 90LB the damn block is hitting and not helping the rear ride.   I have an active conversation with Elkhart about the pressure ratings in those bags to support the vehicle rear weight.  My 2350 does have a slide out with fridge and couch.  Thanks again and I will update again when I have any new information.
Ah, I understand about your air bags.  You MUST add 90 PSI to prevent internal bottoming-out.  Good that you are working with Phoenix on it.  I understand why you had rear air bags on your previous 2100, an effort to lift the rear to level it along with improved handling.  Why did you add them on your E450 2350?  Did you think...."They helped before so they should help on my new rig?"  I would consider removing them.

About the Phoenix supplied tire pressure sticker.  The recommended 75 PSI in the front and 80 PSI in the rear sounds like a lot more air than your load requires.  Maybe they accidentally placed the wrong sticker.  Ask Phoenix about that.  Maybe they can sent you the right sticker.  Your numbers should be around 60-65 PSI.

Back to air bags.  Our old rig with air bags was proportioned similar to model 2100, a short rig with a large rear over-hang.  CLICK HERE TO SEE IT  The air bags with lots of air stabilized it and lifted it a few inches.  But the ride was rough with a lot of air.  So I adjusted more air or less air as the driving conditions required.  If you look at the picture taken through the driver's door, you can see the air bag control unit with air gauge, located by the driver's left knee.  One button turned on the air pump.  The other button let out air.  Another picture showing the battery compartment & converter, also shows the air compressor.

I recently found out the actual limit of the Air Lift bags is 5000LB and 7500LB for the heavy duty bags.  So this means what I have on the vehicle is already over weighted thus the issues with pressure, etc..  Needless to say we are taking the RV back to Elkhart Hitch at the end of the month to remove the Air Lift system.  They agreed is was a mistake and are refunding.  While I am having the bags taken off, I am going to have the KONI FSD installed.  They have to better than the factory shocks and have researched that is seems I cannot go wrong?  Right?  I will call PC and review the tire weight and sticker they have installed in our 2019 2350. 
Thanks Ron and everyone for all the great comments.  I be sure to share how things go after the bags are removed.  We start a 3 week trip out west the next day so can only pray all goes as expected.

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2019, 10:22:17 am »
Rjw, best of luck with the fsd Koni shocks. They didnít pan out for me. The ride is jarring to say the least. Now there is a chance mine are bad and Koni says if I have my receipt they will replace them.  Iím hoping thatís the case and hoping I can find or obtain a copy of my receipt.


If you havenít purchased yet Iíd suggest calling Koni first. I see on their web site they also list a shock called the EVO 99.  No idea if it might be a better option for the E450 but it might be worth the time to ask.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 12:15:29 pm by Joseph »

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2019, 04:26:25 pm »
Rjw, best of luck with the fsd Koni shocks. They didnít pan out for me. The ride is jarring to say the least. Now there is a chance mine are bad and Koni says if I have my receipt they will replace them.  Iím hoping thatís the case and hoping I can find or obtain a copy of my receipt.


If you havenít purchased yet Iíd suggest calling Koni first. I see on their web site they also list a shock called the EVO 99.  No idea if it might be a better option for the E450 but it might be worth the time to ask.

Thanks I will update again soon. 

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2019, 06:47:40 pm »
It seems to be asking a lot of Koni-FSD shocks to smooth out the rough ride of a 2350/E450.  But I sure hope it is the magic bullet for you.
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