House Batteries Not Charging...on Shore Power

OK, me again...
Put new house batteries and TempAssure board in my converter before leaving on my current trip...after cooking the batteries while in storage last winter.

Have been on and off shore power for a day or two at a time as we are traveling depending where we are staying.

Currently on day four at a location and noticed the house Batteries are very low, one light lit on the tank/propane/battery status panel. Checked the batteries with a volt meter and they are indeed low...11.9v.

Now, after unplugging from shore power and running the truck altinator or the generator, the house batteries charge as indicated by the status panel and also TempAssure plug lights up green which indicates that the batteries are charging.

So, not sure what is going on?
Tom

Hi Tom,

Yes, at 11.9V your batteries are dangerously low, at risk of permanent damage.

I hope someone with a new PC will adjust my following recommendation given our 12 year old PC is not setup quite the same as your 2018 model.

Your house batteries must read well over 13V (more like 13.5V-14V) under each of the following conditions.
1) when driving the rig
2) when plugged into shore power (inverter/converter must be operational)
3) when running the generator (inverter/converter must be operational)

During boon-docking conditions, the voltage will read be whatever the batteries have stored with consideration to the load currently on them.  I wonder if you have a serious power drain condition, maybe something in your PC is shorted or malfunctioning to cause a fast drain.

If something is not working right, do the following to get yourself through the trip.  I do this as my standard routine with our 2007 2350 because we boon-dock all the time, and don't drive our PC during extended stays, missing out on recharging while driving.

- Keep your inverter turned off unless you need 110V inverted power.  Given your current situation, avoid inverted power until your batteries are reading 12.7V (fully charged with no load on them)
- Go to Walmart and buy a 4-10-20-40 amp battery charger. (I like my Black & Decker)
- Use the charger directly on your house batteries when you have shore power or run the generator.  At the 40 amp setting, the charger will be much more effective at charging your batteries than the on-board one which right now falls short for reasons unknown.

Having a 12V volt meter reading constantly, located in plain sight helps me in monitoring battery health.  I got fancy with a volt meter installing it into the panel that monitors all our tanks, but even a plug-in one like this works well.  Just plug it into the 12V outlet to the right of the main TV inside the cabinet over the passenger seat.


I do wonder if everything is actually working perfectly fine and you just don't realize how hard you are working your house batteries.

One thing I learned when I was a computer tech in the Air Force was, when something breaks, the first thing to check is the last thing you touched.

I would remove the "TempAssure" and see if the battery voltage is over 13V when it's disconnected and the shore power is plugged in.

Also make sure the on-off power switch by the door is always on.

OK, me again...
Put new house batteries and TempAssure board in my converter before leaving on my current trip...after cooking the batteries while in storage last winter.

Have been on and off shore power for a day or two at a time as we are traveling depending where we are staying.

Currently on day four at a location and noticed the house Batteries are very low, one light lit on the tank/propane/battery status panel. Checked the batteries with a volt meter and they are indeed low...11.9v.

Now, after unplugging from shore power and running the truck altinator or the generator, the house batteries charge as indicated by the status panel and also TempAssure plug lights up green which indicates that the batteries are charging.

So, not sure what is going on?
Tom

Since your batteries are not charging on shore power but are charging while on generator.... That would lead me to question the transfer switch.    But, my first step in trouble finding would be... When on shore power... Does the microwave work?    Does the microwave work on generator?

The fact that the batteries charge while running generator but not on shore power means (to me) the convertor/charger is working.   The idea being to see if the shore power is really getting to the charger from the transfer switch.

Have you contacted the factory?   I am guessing you are still under warranty... The factory isn't too far from the UP or tip of the mitten, it may be well worth the trip there to let them fix it, or get their permission to take it to a nearby RV dealer.   I have done that... Called to get the ok to take to local dealer, PC told me they authorize up to $xxx in repair costs, I pay the dealer, send receipt to PC and they sent me a check (very quickly) for the amount I paid.   

One thing I learned when I was a computer tech in the Air Force was, when something breaks, the first thing to check is the last thing you touched.

I would remove the "TempAssure" and see if the battery voltage is over 13V when it's disconnected and the shore power is plugged in.

If the temperature sensor (either a thermocouple or rtd) is bad or the wire leads got damaged, that could create  a false battery over-temperature condition, causing the charging circuit to turn off.

If you can see the temperature sensor on the battery, try placing an ice cube on it to see if the Tempasure module reacts and enables the charging circuit.

Or just remove the Tempasure module.

Thanks,
The rig is a 2018 model, but was built in Sep 2017 so out of warrenty I am sure.

Regarding a potential damaged TempAssure thermal couple/RTD and/or Installation issue the batteries charge fine on generator or truck altinator...TempAssure is in play in each scenario.

We bought this rig late last summer and to be honest I can't say for sure if all was OK last year on the two week trip around Lake Superior, as we were a day or two at each stop and on/off shore power. This current trip we happen to be on a four night stay, on shore power.

Am in s South West now, maybe I can stop by Elkhart on the way home to Verify that the transfer switch and converter are working as they should.
Tom,

Hi Tom--

This situation sounds a little tricky since from your reports and indications it sounds like the batteries are only failing to charge while plugged in to shore power.  Since that is unusual, it would be really helpful to verify that with some test readings with a voltmeter (which you indicate you have with you).  Depending on the state of charge of the batteries, it's a little difficult to predict exactly what voltage readings you should expect, but checking the house battery voltage for instance with the RV plugged into shore power, and then with the unit off shore power but with generator running, should confirm if you're showing a higher voltage (charge voltage) across the batteries with the generator on than when plugged in.

Please note that the Ford engine alternator does not in any way use the converter/charger or TempAssure module to charge the house batteries.  That is a totally independent circuit using only the 12-volt vehicle charging system to charge the house batteries (as well as the Ford battery).  However, you ARE correct that both charging while plugged into shore power or by running your Onan generator each use the convertor/charger to convert 120-volt AC to 12-volt DC power to charge the house batteries--so if you confirm absolutely that the converter/charger is working properly on generator, that should mean that the converter/charger unit is OK, and the problem would seem to be that it is not being properly activated while plugged in to shore.  That is why DonC mentioned the transfer switch--since that unit is what changes the input to your converter/charger from shore power to generator when you fire up the generator, and it could be responsible for you not receiving shore power to your converter.  That is highly unlikely though, since the transfer switch switches ALL A/C power, and if it's not giving you shore A/C to your converter, it's likely not giving you shore A/C at all---over a 4-day stay, you would almost certainly notice if you weren't actually getting shore power and the only A/C power is what you had available from your inverter.  As he mentioned, the microwave is an easy test for that, since it is not powered by inverter, so would not operate if the transfer switch was not giving you shore A/C--bottom line, though, is that the transfer switch wouldn't seem to be a likely culprit.  I suppose that one possible answer could be that the shore power you were using was so far out of tolerance (extremely low voltage) that the converter/charger couldn't provide an adequate battery charging voltage from it, but if you have any type of EMS or other protection on your A/C power that would have caught it.  Also in that case the situation should correct when you left that particular hook-up.

Another consideration to factor in is that you lost a set of batteries during your recent storage period apparently because they were overcharged and boiled dry from an extended period of being plugged in to shore power.  That would seem to indicate that the batteries were being charged on shore power at that point.  These various reasons are why I suggest trying to confirm that what appears to be the case of no charging under shore power only is in fact what's happening.  If that proves to be the case, there would certainly be some cause/explanation for it--but it likely would require some direct troubleshooting on your system to determine the problem and fix it.  If you DO stop by Elkhart, consider having them install the Trimetric TM2030RV Battery Monitor while you're there.  That is a nominal cost option on factory builds and they should have units on hand.  It consists of the monitor/meter and a shunt that installs near the batteries.  With the TM2030, you have a constant readout in amps of current flowing into (+) or out of (-) your house batteries, exact battery voltage, and percent of charge (0 to 100%) of the batteries; it's a great system that eliminates guesswork and enables you to know exactly what's going on with your house battery bank.

All the best,         Mike             

So, yes the microwave works while on either shore power or generator. All of the AC outlets worked on shore power as well.

Off grid now for a day and battery voltage is at 11.9v this morning, checked with a volt meter. Battery "status" light is at 1/3. This is a bit interesting as the batteries were fully charged after a three hour drive here and all that ran last night was the furnace fan (fridge and HW are on propane), a couple of LED lights, and a cooling fan (converter?) that occasionally comes on.

Anyway, ran the generator and and the voltage reading across the batteries was only 11.9v as well? So ran the truck and the voltage across the batteries was 13.1v. As Mike pointed out the truck charges the batteries directly...I did crawl under the coach and there are two sets of cables under the connected together on a buss, and then one set of cables out to the batteries. This time I checked the generator charge voltage first, before running the truck, and it does not seem to be charging either.

Regarding storage and the cooked batteries,  I can't say for sure if the converter was charging the batteries during the time in storage, I did not take any voltage readings until I found them dead.  I bought the rig used a few months prior, did not take any voltage readings prior to storage as I never suspected a problem? For all I know the batteries and/or converter were shot when I bought it???

So looks like I may have an issue with the converter. As Mike suggests the next time I am on shore power I'll check the voltage across the batteries while on shore power and then off.

Also, assuming the converter is faulty, any input on a more reliable set up would be appreciated?
Thanks,
Tom

Swapping the Parallax for a smart convertor would probably be easier than installing the "Temp Assure" was.

I replaced mine with this one: Progressive Dynamics PD9245CV Inteli-Power 9200 for $186 from Amazon

It plugs in exactly the same as the old unit.  Just be sure to disconnect the batteries first.

UPDATE:  The previous statement is only true if your original converter is a Parallax 7445, like mine was.  If your unit is a 5300, or similar, where the converter forms a panel in the wall of your RV, I don't know if there is a direct replacement available.  The Parallax 7445 is hidden behind a cabinet door, so basically any 45amp unit that fits in that space would work.  Sorry to shoot my mouth off without understanding all the facts.

Tom,

Your additional info is helpful.  You say you had battery voltage reading of only 11.9 with the onboard generator operating, which increased to 13.1 when you started the truck engine.  So now, it appears that the house batteries may be charging only from the Ford alternator, but will not charge either from shore power or from your onboard generator.  Frankly, this makes a lot more sense, because it points a finger directly at the converter/charger.

If you end up looking at replacement, there are a number of options.  You can replace the entire Power Center, of course, with either a new Parallax unit or the Progressive Dynamics unit that Phoenix is currently using (about $400).  That would involve having to remove and reinstall all the A/C and D/C wire connections for the various circuits.  The more simple approach is to retain your existing Power Center, and just replace the converter/charger unit--which is roughly the lower half of the existing assembly.  That means all of your wiring stays in place, and you basically just remove and reinstall the main leads from the battery and the two wires that power the converter charger.  You can buy a direct replacement unit from Parallax, or install an aftermarket unit from Boondocker that will directly replace the Parallax unit; both run in the $200 range.  Progressive Dynamics also offers a replacement converter/charger that should fit your current space.

Before you go further, however, since it seems likely that your converter/charger is not operating after all, the first thing to do is to check the output fuses on that unit.  I don't think you ever said what model unit you actually have, or whether you have a 30-amp or 50-amp AC system.  On the 50-amp (5300 series) Parallax units the fuses are called "Converter Output Protection Fuses" and on the 30-amp ( 7100 or 8300 series) the fuses are called "Reverse Protection" or "Reverse Battery Polarity Protection" fuses.  In any case, there will be two of them together (apart from the other DC fuses), and they will likely be 30-amp fuses.  These fuses protect the converter from any type of reversed hook-up, or inadvertent short to ground, and will prevent converter operation (and battery charging) if blown.

All the best,        Mike

Before you go further, however, since it seems likely that your converter/charger is not operating after all, the first thing to do is to check the output fuses on that unit.  I don't think you ever said what model unit you actually have, or whether you have a 30-amp or 50-amp AC system.  On the 50-amp (5300 series) Parallax units the fuses are called "Converter Output Protection Fuses" and on the 30-amp ( 7100 or 8300 series) the fuses are called "Reverse Protection" or "Reverse Battery Polarity Protection" fuses.  In any case, there will be two of them together (apart from the other DC fuses), and they will likely be 30-amp fuses.  These fuses protect the converter from any type of reversed hook-up, or inadvertent short to ground, and will prevent converter operation (and battery charging) if blown.

All the best,        Mike

Great advice from Mike.

Also pull on the wires, just to make sure they are actually connected, not just "appearing" to be connected.  You might have a loose termination or similar.

Swapping the Parallax for a smart convertor would probably be easier than installing the "Temp Assure" was.

I replaced mine with this one: Progressive Dynamics PD9245CV Inteli-Power 9200 for $186 from Amazon

It plugs in exactly the same as the old unit.  Just be sure to disconnect the batteries first.

Does this converter have settings for type of battery? I browsed their product description and didn't see any mention of it. We're replacing our batteries in a few weeks and are considering the controller also.

Quote from: BlueBlaze on April 14, 2019, 11:32:39 am

Swapping the Parallax for a smart convertor would probably be easier than installing the "Temp Assure" was.

I replaced mine with this one: Progressive Dynamics PD9245CV Inteli-Power 9200 for $186 from Amazon

It plugs in exactly the same as the old unit.  Just be sure to disconnect the batteries first.

Does this converter have settings for type of battery? I browsed their product description and didn't see any mention of it. We're replacing our batteries in a few weeks and are considering the controller also.

So long as you're using lead-acid or AGM, there are no settings to change.  If you plan to use something else (gel-cel?), you probably need to call the factory and ask.  I believe there are some jumpers on the circuit board that you can change for gel-cell batteries, but I've lost the little insert in the package that mentioned it.  It basically said to call the factory for help with the jumpers.  If you plan to buy lithium batteries, they sell a different version of the converter just for lithium.

So long as you're using lead-acid or AGM, there are no settings to change.

That may be true for later Phoenix Cruisers.  But for us with the older Tripp-Lite, it has an AGM setting via changing a jumper.