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Dead Batteries - Storage

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Tom B

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Dead Batteries - Storage
« on: March 18, 2019, 11:44:41 am »
Hi,
Just checked on my coach and the batteries are dead...plugged into 110, green light is on the power cord, and coach power switch is on. I thought the coach would stay charged while plugged in?
Tom

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swiftboot

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2019, 08:31:04 pm »
Were you plugged into 30amp service or something less?  How long in storage?  Did you have any other appliance on during storage?   Check water in battery/s and finally do your house lights work while plugged in.?  Do lights work with generator power, cranking the truck may allow you to start genny. Sorry i cant be of any help but answering those questions would be a start.

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mikeh

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2019, 10:08:33 pm »
Tom,

SwiftBoot is right.  Really need more information to be of any help on this issue.  You're correct that with the coach plugged in to good AC and the power switch ON, your coach batteries should have been receiving a charge voltage from your converter.  If they are in fact dead, there are several possibilities but it's impossible to speculate without more info.  If you don't hit on the problem yourself, provide as much other information as you can about what your electrical system is doing or not doing and I know everyone will try to assist.

All the best,        Mike

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Tom B

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2019, 04:39:50 pm »
More info,

- I plugged into 110v 15 receptacle. When at home, which is only a day or two before we leave somewhere, when the coach is plugged into a 20amp GFI, something in the coach trips the breaker. I went through and shut off each breaker one at a time and leave the one off that was tripping the GFI. I can not read the hand writing on the breaker panel, but think it may be one of the two inverter breakers...if that is true how would the batteries charge???
- been in heated storage since mid-Sept of last year
- everything is off in the coach, main power switch to the coach (the on/off) switch down low by the exit step
- I stopped in once per moth to start and run the generator...but earlier this week I went to start it and there was no juice at all to even turn it over.
- the battery charge indicator light shows that they are dead.
- when I start the truck of course the batteries show full charge as they are running off from the truck alternator.
- I checked the batteries and they were way low on water...had to add two 16oz bottles of water to each one. I now have the coacknunplugged from the 110v 15amp receptacle, and have a smart charger on the batteries...which is what I was going to do in the first place but asssumed the coach would charge them if I simply plugged it in.
- per another post on this forum I wonder now if it was the “single stage” inverter/charger that was supplied with the coach, and cooked the batteries as they were very low on water?

So I wonder if it has to do with the breaker in the coach (the one just left of the main) that I need to shut off in order to plug this into a standard 15 or 20 amp breaker to keep the GFI from  tripping, or the single stage inverter/charger cooked the batteries?

Again, thought this was simply plug the coach into you garage receptacle and the batteries would stay charged?

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TNcanuck

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2019, 05:37:54 pm »
With your PC being a 2018, it seems strange that the converter/charger would only be single stage.  You’ll have to read up on that either from the manuals that came with the RV or by looking up your converter model number online. You could go to the manufacturer’s website or try Bestconverters.com

If you can confirm that the circuit for the charger is tripping the breaker in your house, then I think you have found the problem. If all the 110v breakers in the RV are off and turning on the charger trips your house breaker then it appears that the charger is faulty.
“Vandor”
John & Cheryl

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Tom B

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2019, 06:34:59 pm »
I did look up my inverter and it is a Xantrex PRO XM 1800, I looked it up and it is multi stage.

When I plug this coach into a 20amp GFI receptacle something in the coach trips the GFI, so I shut off each breaker in the coach one by one to find out which one is tripping the GFI. Turns out it’s the breaker left of the main labeled “Inverter Power”, the breaker to the right of the main is labeled “20A Main Inverter” and that one can stay on without tripping the GFI.
Tom

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TNcanuck

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2019, 06:59:47 pm »
I looked up your inverter on the Xantrex web site and that model is only an inverter. It is not an inverter/charger as some models are.

As you already know, inverters provide 110v power without being connected to shore power or running a generator. When connected to shore power you don’t need to run the inverter because you already have 110v power. There should be a switch to turn the inverter on and off. That could be why the breaker trips in the house.

Since the inverter does not have charging capability, there will be a converter/ charger in your RV which provides 12v power and battery charging when plugged in to shore power. If your batteries are boiling dry, it seems the charger might be faulty.  In my RV the converter/charger is in the same compartment that the 110v breakers and 12v fuses are. It is right below them. Not sure where it will be in your rig. Others with more modern rigs will have to help out from here.
“Vandor”
John & Cheryl

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swiftboot

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2019, 07:03:53 pm »
Again it appears there is a fault with the inverter/converter.  In another post you indicated a trip later planned later this month.  If possible, I would try to go to local rv park and plug into 30 amp service to see if that might be the problem.  Like you I plug up to a 20amp garage service before a trip but don't have your problems.  It would be a non-starter if your batteries went dead while on your trip considering the fridge will require 12v to operate as well as other 12v systems in your coach.  Just sayin...it might just be the gif that is causing the snafu.

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Tom B

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2019, 07:28:48 pm »
I looked up your inverter on the Xantrex web site and that model is only an inverter. It is not an inverter/charger as some models are.

As you already know, inverters provide 110v power without being connected to shore power or running a generator. When connected to shore power you don’t need to run the inverter because you already have 110v power. There should be a switch to turn the inverter on and off. That could be why the breaker trips in the house.

Since the inverter does not have charging capability, there will be a converter/ charger in your RV which provides 12v power and battery charging when plugged in to shore power. If your batteries are boiling dry, it seems the charger might be faulty.  In my RV the converter/charger is in the same compartment that the 110v breakers and 12v fuses are. It is right below them. Not sure where it will be in your rig. Others with more modern rigs will have to help out from here.
I see that now, it does say inverter, not inverter/charger...I don’t see any literature for another inverter/charger so I’ll have to go look. Actually we do use the inverter at times when on shore power as there are certain receptacles (TV, below sink, bath, and one outside that are only powered by the inverter)...I think?
Tom

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mikeh

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2019, 07:32:40 pm »
I did look up my inverter and it is a Xantrex PRO XM 1800, I looked it up and it is multi stage.

When I plug this coach into a 20amp GFI receptacle something in the coach trips the GFI, so I shut off each breaker in the coach one by one to find out which one is tripping the GFI. Turns out it’s the breaker left of the main labeled “Inverter Power”, the breaker to the right of the main is labeled “20A Main Inverter” and that one can stay on without tripping the GFI.
Tom

Tom, I will try possibly provide a more complete reply, but let me jump in here with one clarification:

There is some confusion in the above messages between the "inverter" and the "converter".  They are two different items located in two different places.  Your Xantrex PRO XM 1800 "inverter", as John (TNcanuck) said, does NOT incorporate a battery charger.  The function of the inverter is only to change 12 volt DC power from the batteries to 120 volt AC power to operate some of your AC outlets when you are not hooked to shore power and do not have the generator running.  The built-in battery charger in your rig is located in the "converter-charger" which in your 2018 2552  should be located under the passenger-side bed--it is essentially in the same unit that houses your AC breakers and 12 volt fuses.

If you can verify from your documents or from the unit whether you have a Parallax converter-charger or a Progressive Dynamics converter-charger, it would be useful.  I'm not sure precisely when Phoenix made the change, but I know that at least some (all?) of the model units built in 2017 had the Parallax converters and at least some (all?) of the model units built in 2018 (and later) had the PD converter.  As you read in the other thread that you mentioned and posted to, the Parallax unit utilizes a single-stage charger which is less forgiving when charging you battery, while the PD unit incorporates a 3-stage charger which is less apt to damage a flooded battery by boiling out the electrolyte.  The fact that your batteries were extremely low on water doesn't absolutely mean that you have the Parallax unit, but I would try to determine that for sure for future reference.

I'm going to get this posted, but will see if I can provide better information, with a little more time to review.

All the best,       Mike

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TNcanuck

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2019, 07:45:32 pm »
I just thought of something else.

When you don’t need 110v power from the inverter (that is, when on shore power or generator) you should always turn the inverter off. The reason is, inverters draw current from the batteries whenever they are on. So they could deplete the batteries if left on long enough.

The 110v outlets are powered when on shore power. When not connected to shore power you can power some of the outlets via the inverter. The tv outlet, one at the kitchen, one in the bathroom and one outside. The remaining outlets will not have power from the inverter.

So there’s no need to run the inverter while on shore power.
“Vandor”
John & Cheryl

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Tom B

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2019, 09:37:48 pm »
I did look up my inverter and it is a Xantrex PRO XM 1800, I looked it up and it is multi stage.

When I plug this coach into a 20amp GFI receptacle something in the coach trips the GFI, so I shut off each breaker in the coach one by one to find out which one is tripping the GFI. Turns out it’s the breaker left of the main labeled “Inverter Power”, the breaker to the right of the main is labeled “20A Main Inverter” and that one can stay on without tripping the GFI.
Tom

Tom, I will try possibly provide a more complete reply, but let me jump in here with one clarification:

There is some confusion in the above messages between the "inverter" and the "converter".  They are two different items located in two different places.  Your Xantrex PRO XM 1800 "inverter", as John (TNcanuck) said, does NOT incorporate a battery charger.  The function of the inverter is only to change 12 volt DC power from the batteries to 120 volt AC power to operate some of your AC outlets when you are not hooked to shore power and do not have the generator running.  The built-in battery charger in your rig is located in the "converter-charger" which in your 2018 2552  should be located under the passenger-side bed--it is essentially in the same unit that houses your AC breakers and 12 volt fuses.

If you can verify from your documents or from the unit whether you have a Parallax converter-charger or a Progressive Dynamics converter-charger, it would be useful.  I'm not sure precisely when Phoenix made the change, but I know that at least some (all?) of the model units built in 2017 had the Parallax converters and at least some (all?) of the model units built in 2018 (and later) had the PD converter.  As you read in the other thread that you mentioned and posted to, the Parallax unit utilizes a single-stage charger which is less forgiving when charging you battery, while the PD unit incorporates a 3-stage charger which is less apt to damage a flooded battery by boiling out the electrolyte.  The fact that your batteries were extremely low on water doesn't absolutely mean that you have the Parallax unit, but I would try to determine that for sure for future reference.

I'm going to get this posted, but will see if I can provide better information, with a little more time to review.

All the best,       Mike
Yes I was confused on that...I thought there was one unit, an Inverter and converter-charger.  I took apart the passenger side bed and found the Xantrex PRO XM 1800 Inverter. Regarding the Parallax converter-charger you refer to...do you mean the Parallax “5300 Series Power Center”?  It sits below the breaker panel? Yes I have that. I bought the rig used, but believe it was an early build...

The fuses on that Parallex panel are LP Detector & Monitor, Slide Switch, Tank Heater, Driver (Power bed?), Passenger (Power bed?), Rear, Pump, Refrige & water heater, Awning & TV. So I assumed this unit converted AC to DC, and was a distribution center to the mentioned circuits?

Remember I need to switch off the breaker the Inverter Power breaker in order to plug in the 110v in my garage...else I trip my GFI. But now that the inverter and converter-charger are different units...does the “Microwave &Converter” breaker power the Parallax, if so that one is on when I am plugged in.
Clear as mud,
Tom

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TNcanuck

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2019, 10:47:28 pm »
Yes, the breaker labeled microwave and converter control those two items.  A converter changes 120v AC into 12v DC. So when you are connected to shore power or the generator, it’s the converter supplying 12v to the DC items, instead of the battery. So the 12v systems such as the water pump, the lights, fantastic fan, control board for the fridge are all 12v and run off either the battery or the converter. The converter needs AC to work.

The inverter does exactly the opposite of the converter. It takes 12v DC from the batteries and produces 120v AC power.

It turns out your rig has a separate inverter (Xantrex) plus the usual converter/charger (Parallax).
“Vandor”
John & Cheryl

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mikeh

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2019, 11:53:37 pm »
OK Tom,

One more shot at this based on your info.  Sounds like you do have the Parallax 5300 converter unit, so I suspect you're correct about your 2018 being a fairly early build.  I also suspect that your fundamental problem with the dead coach batteries tracks to the loss of electrolyte from overcharging during a protracted period of storage.  For that to be the case, you would have had to be plugged in to shore power (the 15-amp connection), and the main battery disconnect (or power switch) would have to be "ON".  I believe those are the conditions that you outlined in your initial post.  You saw the other reports in the other thread you posted to about similar problems under similar circumstances.  That set of conditions that we just outlined is the way you have to have things set to allow battery charging during storage (as you yourself said), but unfortunately, with the Parallax converter-charger, during a protracted period of charging (especially without attention to battery water), the single stage charge system of the Parallax unit eventually contributes to excessive out-gassing which gradually depletes the water in the cells.  Once the electrolyte level drops below the cell plates, the capacity of the battery to produce current is increasingly reduced and as it gets lower and lower eventually the battery is dead.  With water (electrolyte) replenishment, and a recharge effort (especially with a "smart charger") it is possible that the battery may recover either partially or largely, depending on age and general condition of the battery.  That's something that will have to be established by trial.

In retrospect, a better course of action for storage with that unit would have been to put into storage, fully charged, with the main battery disconnect switch OFF.  That should minimize any incidental current draws in storage.  Then, on your periodic visits to run your generator, turn the batteries on and let them "top off" while the generator is exercising.  I suspect that for a 4-5 month storage period, that approach would have kept your batteries at a reasonable level.

Some options that are available are to replace the single-stage Parallax converter-charger with a multi-stage unit from Progressive Dynamics or another manufacturer as was detailed by some of the posters in the other thread you used.  That's not an expensive route, but might seem a little challenging if you aren't familiar with electrical work.  Another consideration (especially if you end up having to replace your existing "flooded cell" type batteries is to move to AGM (absorbed glass mat) sealed units.  That will help relieve the electrolyte maintenance challenge.  The other route that some PC owners have used (Jatrax has some good input on this in forum posts) is to install a TempAssure component from Parallax that they provide to help address this problem.  This is an add-on item that attaches to and senses battery temperature, and sends that reading output back to the Parallax 5300, which then adjust charge rate to reduce output to prevent overheating the battery.  The battery overheating from the continuous charge from the single stage charger is the mechanism that causes the electrolyte to out-gas.  It's a pretty simple install that only requires a single wire to be run from the battery compartment to the 5300.

At the risk of cluttering this post with still more "verbiage", I'm going to copy a couple of excerpts from the Parallax site below.  They provide a general description of the TempAssure option, but in the second paragraph please note their "disclaimer" regarding electrolyte level on flooded-type batteries.  They are well aware that their unit will potentially result in loss of electrolyte if the user doesn't keep a close eye on it!!

"Your 5300 system may include the (optional) TempAssure™ module and sensor cable. When properly installed, the TempAssure™ system employs technology that allows the output voltage of the converter to be varied by the temperature of the RV’s “house” battery system. The benefit of this feature helps to provide a more appropriate charging voltage for the “house” battery system exposed to varying ambient temperatures. For example, in cold climates the output voltage of the converter will be increased, which results in a more fully charged and maintained battery. In hot climates the output voltage of the converter will automatically lower, which will aid in reducing excessive out-gassing of the battery caused by the battery requiring a lower “float” voltage."

"While the 5300 series converter with the addition of the (optional) TempAssure™ module is designed to provide a better means of charging and maintaining the “house” battery, Parallax Power Supply strongly recommends proper battery maintenance be performed by the owner on non-maintenance free batteries following the battery manufacturer’s recommendations.
DO NOT allow the battery cell plates on non-maintenance free batteries to become exposed to the air. Poor battery performance will result.
Parallax Power Supply will not be responsible for battery failure resulting from improper battery maintenance."

All the best,          Mike   

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Tom B

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Re: Dead Batteries - Storage
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2019, 07:51:28 am »
Think that’s it, thanks for all of your help...still a bit miffed to the fact that this rig was supplied with a basic single stage charging system?

- for long term storage the main battery disconnect switch will be OFF, and will periodically use my Optimate to keep the batteries fresh
- good idea leaving the inverter off while on shore power or generator.Did not realize that all 110v receptacles were powered while on shore or generator...thought that there’re was a few of them that were ONLY poewered by the inverter.
- while I am familiar with battery maintenance, I know it may not appear so based on this post, just have not seen this sort of water loss? Even the deep cycle trolling motor batteries I have used?
- Hopfully the Optimax will restore these batteries....if not as someone mentioned, yes we are getting ready to shove off probably early next week so probably the $99 Walmart option. Decide on a long term option.
Thanks again,
Tom