PC news from Tampa

Went to the Tampa Supershow today and was surprised to see most of the Phoenix sales team was wearing orange Campers Inn shirts.
Seems that PC is moving away from the factory direct sales model and future purchases will be handled by the Campers Inn sales network.
Barry told me that at least for the foreseeable future there will be a sales presence at the factory and that there will be no change in PCs willingness to do customization . He said they hope that this change will help them to expand sales especially in the Transit and Sprinter lines and that offering service locations along the east coast should be advantageous to many customers. They also hope that teaming with Campers Inn which has a large presence in the warmer south, will alleviate some of the seasonal sales cycles they experience in the Elkhart winters.
I wish them luck in this endeavor and hope that they will be able to maintain the quality product and customer service reputation they have built over the decades.

Wow, this is no small change.   Wonder when it will be announced to the world?

I recall Phoenix had worked with a number of independent dealerships now and then during other factory-direct times.  Maybe going with the large single Campers Inn network will yield better results.  What you shared does make sense.  But I wonder if this new relationship will negatively impact factory direct pricing discounts.  New Phoenix Cruisers have gone up in price since under new ownership.  I wonder where the breaking point is, pricing units so high that it negatively impacts the sale of units.

I am so glad we bought our PC-2350 12 years ago for $67,205 when I was still working.  I wonder if we could afford our rig today in 2019 with 2019 prices, being retired (semi-retired) for 3 years now.

That’s a great idea to mass market the new compact TRX to class B buyers  looking at Erwin Hymer-Roadtrek and Winnebago Travato and  Paseo models. The Camping World dealer network has it’s own Hymer Sunlight.

It will be interesting to see more TRX floorplans introduced next month.

I recall Phoenix had worked with a number of independent dealerships now and then during other factory-direct times.  Maybe going with the large single Campers Inn network will yield better results.  What you shared does make sense.  But I wonder if this new relationship will negatively impact factory direct pricing discounts.  New Phoenix Cruisers have gone up in price since under new ownership.  I wonder where the breaking point is, pricing units so high that it negatively impacts the sale of units.

I am so glad we bought our PC-2350 12 years ago for $67,205 when I was still working.  I wonder if we could afford our rig today being retired (semi-retired) for 3 years now.

I am not sure the Campers Inn relationship will be the same as with the past dealer(s) ?

https://www.classicvans.com/phoenix-cruiser.html

Adding a middleman probably will not reduce costs or improve communication between the buyer and the factory. I think it will increase sales volume for Phoenix but it may lead to less of a customization capability. I don’t know anything about the Campers Inn organization but I do know that most of the high volume rv dealerships I have been in are loaded with sales people and repair technitions who”don’t have a clue” about the products they are selling and repairing. Phoenix Cruiser has been successful with their past business model, they were not like all the other manufacturers that concentrated on volume at the expense of quality. Phoenix quality has enabled premium pricing, hopefully that won’t change. In general, the rv manufacturers should be ashamed of the low quality, problem ridden products they produce. Many a dream has been destroyed, vacations ruined, because of a lack of quality control or caring about their customers, it is very sad. All that being said, I have enjoyed the 2 Phoenix Cruisers that I have owned, they are well built, let’s hope it continues.

Adding a middleman probably will not reduce costs or improve communication between the buyer and the factory. I think it will increase sales volume for Phoenix but it may lead to less of a customization capability. I don’t know anything about the Campers Inn organization but I do know that most of the high volume rv dealerships I have been in are loaded with sales people and repair technitions who”don’t have a clue” about the products they are selling and repairing. Phoenix Cruiser has been successful with their past business model, they were not like all the other manufacturers that concentrated on volume at the expense of quality. Phoenix quality has enabled premium pricing, hopefully that won’t change. In general, the rv manufacturers should be ashamed of the low quality, problem ridden products they produce. Many a dream has been destroyed, vacations ruined, because of a lack of quality control or caring about their customers, it is very sad. All that being said, I have enjoyed the 2 Phoenix Cruisers that I have owned, they are well built, let’s hope it continues.

A small town rv dealer told me the rv industry has done it to itself with poor quality and poor service. Unfortunately  my PC has not been what I consider high quality. I will be making my third trip back to Elkhart this spring, to many things have gone wrong.

  Lynn

Phoenix builds a quality coach. She's solid. The way the water lines are run, the floor and walls are built, the cabinetry and overall build are excellent. Kermit listened to his customers, stayed on top of industry changes, made continuous improvements and took pride in the quality of his coaches.

Part of the quality issues with RVs are with the components that are built by others and installed by the RV manufacturer. Just run through your owner's manuals to see how many different companies made things that are in your Phoenix. Unfortunately it is common to have those product manufacturers point fingers to avoid warranty claims instead of fixing the problem. Add in some not so honest repair people trying to increase the work needed and you have a mess.

Atwood has a known problem with their igniters. They tell you your propane flow is restricted so it is the manufacturer's fault. The repair shop tells you it is the expensive motherboard. After months of fighting with these people we made it back to Elkhart and Kermit had his furnace guy fix it. THAT is a huge part of the value and satisfaction with our Phoenix.

Onan had (has?) a known problem with their generator fuel pump. Repair shops told people it was the more expensive shellacing and rebuilt their carburetor.

Dometic refrigerators had their doors fall off and took many years and a big lawsuit to make improvements.

The list goes on (and on). While extremely frustrating, these things are not the fault of the RV Manufacturer. Where Phoenix soared was their response to these problems. NOT ONCE did they point the finger and tell us to go talk to someone else. Kermit always made it right one way or another. I hope that carries on.

Lynn, I hope they are able to get your issues resolved this trip.

I am no authority on this, but when the RV industry collapsed in 2007-2009 from the great recession, many of the RV appliance and component manufactures went to China to get their products made.  As always with China, they cheat after they become an approved supplier.  From
 plastics to steel, from moldings to castings, without notification, they change to cheaper inferior materials and processes. The flaking of PC vinyl seating is one of the most prominent examples.  I can't say how I really feel about products from China because I would be in violation of forum rules.  I also can't talk politics, how that influenced the down fall in product quality through unfair import/export tarriffs going on for many decades. .........M.........A...........G............A...............!

This is a very interesting thread to me.   I have watched quality of virtually EVERYTHING decline over the last umpteen years.   Now, I don't mean to lean back and join Barb singing "The Way We Were" and I don't think you can put the genie back into the bottle so what exists today will be the same story years from now.   The past allure of PC to me was its unique quality and the fact that it was owned by the folks you talked to when you bought one.   Their history in the industry was long and their commitment deep.   It was evident that they enjoyed their business beyond how much money they could make.   It was, in a word, old school.  I put 200 watts of solar on my roof myself, called the factory and asked a structural layout question.   Within an hour Kermit called me back and answered my question in detail.    Think that would happen today?

I have owned two Roadtrek class Bs.   I wouldn't buy a new one now.   Roadtrek was owned and operated by the family that started it forty years ago until a few years ago.  Since then, it has been flipped four times that I know of and maybe more.    Pleasure Ways and Roadtreks (both high quality Canadian products) were essentially hand made and superb.   PC was the same.    Virtually all components were made down the road in the US or Canada.    No more.   

The days of the small independent guy are about gone.   The small shopkeeper is mostly now found in a Norman Rockwell illustration.   Same thing for manufacturers.   There are a few examples, but it is just a tide of change and quality which young people accept and guys like me in my mid 70s find difficult to accept.   2008 changed everything and that genie is out of that bottle for good.   

I guess today if you buy a new PC or most any other rig you just have to brace yourself for quality issues and know what you can expect. 

The Phoenix is built solid. Appliance problems aren't Phoenix fault, but I've had things go wrong that are. The lack of communication and misinformation is frustrating. My slideout jerks and shakes going in and out, poor design by Phoenix, they changed that shortly after I bought. I thought the fresh water tank looked small, I  was told the tank, on it's own, was 31 gallons, it's not even close, it's 42% smaller. The holding tank Phoenix claims is 23 gallons is only 17. These tank capacities are about the same as a class B van. I asked about using the E450 instead of the E350, I was told it wasn't necessary, I drag when going over humps, now Phoenix uses just the E450, they changed just after I bought. The motorhome is to light in the front and to heavy in the back, I told the service tech my Phoenix sags, he said they all do. I have a list of things that failed or broke but won't bother listing them. I know I'm crashing the party but I think Phoenix could do better, I like the motorhome but not  the surprises. The good things, wood cabinets, corian counter tops, comfortable sofa bed, solid foundation.

  Lynn

That leaves several very small custom van makers in Canada and the U.S. plus Coach house and Lazy Daze as true factory direct for C's and B's.

It appears that if the familys that own these companies have kids and grandkids (Coach House & Lazy Daze) that want to stay in the business they will be here for awhile.  Lazy Daze in business for 60 years, had to lay off half their work force in 08-09.  A lot of them had been with them for 30 years.  The owners never hired any of them back, or anyone new because they never wanted to have to lay off people again.  It now takes 1-1/2-2 years to have a Lazy Daze built.  You first get on a chassis wait list for up to 6 months.  Then they call you to verify start up and send them your $4K deposit.

The results of this is that the depreciation hit on Lazy Daze is half a production line unit.  You also will hardly ever find a unit less then 6-7 years old on the open market.  Not that it is of any condolences, and its way early to assume, but PC's may enter a similar phase.

Hutch, I looked into Lazy Daze before I bought the Phoenix, you are 100 percent correct about Lazy Daze. I ordered my Phoenix while on the road, I'd never been in one. I bought into the great reviews. I should have gone to the factory and looked things over better but there's to many things you don't find out until you own one. Over all I think the Phoenix is better than most other brands. Phoenix made some improvements on my complaints just a few months after I bought, just a little bad timing for me.

  Lynn

Hutch, I looked into Lazy Daze before I bought the Phoenix, you are 100 percent correct about Lazy Daze. I ordered my Phoenix while on the road, I'd never been in one. I bought into the great reviews. I should have gone to the factory and looked things over better but there's to many things you don't find out until you own one. Over all I think the Phoenix is better than most other brands. Phoenix made some improvements on my complaints just a few months after I bought, just a little bad timing for me.

  Lynn

I always thought that when I downsized, I would seriously consider a Lazy Daze.  The biggest deterrent for me was going to California for delivery.  Then I discovered Phoenix USA.  I feel I made a good decision.  I have no complaints, but, I do wish the factory would communicate more with current owners (this is not a complaint, but a suggestion).  I will use Tiffin as an example.  Tiffin has a monthly or at least a frequent magazine delivered to current owners.  I am not suggesting that PUSA publishes a glossy magazine, but even a monthly email communication would be an improvement.

As far as the Camper's Inn partnership, I am digesting this before I comment.  I live in Tennessee and the trip north is not all that big a problem.  I also plan to go back sometime this summer to get some minor warranty stuff done and maybe a mod or two.  I hope the new partnership does not affect the customization of the units.   My 2019 is not even 6 months old, but I am already considering some mods and custom stuff if and when I order another.  My current PC was designed with no dinette and replaced with a nice cabinet and corian counter top. 

Cheers 

Barry T

I drag when going over humps,

Hi Lynn!

Wondering what you mean... I have an older 2350, but very similar in dimensions and weight to yours.*  Also an E350.  The only time I have dragged was on a steep entrance grade change going into a shopping plaza, and I did not hit it on 'the diagonal' like I should have, but motored straight in... definitely operator error.    Does yours scrape on things like speed bumps? I was VERY nervous about the generator exhaust pipe hitting speed humps, it is the lowest point on the rig and near center. Never has. (Whew!!) I tend to be a bit adventurous where I drive also,  to judge from other people's reactions. I have been quite happy with how the 2350 negotiates rough terrain.

I told the service tech my Phoenix sags, he said they all do.

Even with the trailer on and loaded (fresh water with ~10 gal, waste tanks empty) I dont have any noticeable 'squat' on the back.  I have not made the time to get on scales yet, however. Compared to many full-timers, our 'getaway' packing of the coach may be MUCH lighter. Can you possibly post a picture to illustrate the squat yours has?


And now down the rabbit hole... 

I agree with Hutch42's assessment that the supplied components now are not of the same quality. I am finding this constantly in the utility cart world also. Club Car has gone from King to 'just another player' with their series of downgrades to quality and life-span. Our carts from 1996-2014 are in service more than the 2015 and up ones we got.  We are looking at other brands for the first time in 30+ years, and finding they all have gone to a common low level.   

  I am a Craigslist junkie, and constantly monitor the RV for sale in our area and south of here to Miami. Its where we found ours.  Prices for older (~10-15 years)  B's and B+'s have increased much over the past year. I think we could get easily $5K more than we paid in Oct 2017 for ours now, judging by the prices I see now. ( we paid ~$21K before taxes, etc.)

Right now on our local Craigslist - 2007 Dynamax Isata 282 - $62900 (30K miles, 28'),  2004 CHINOOK SUMMIT - $45000 (135K miles (!) 27') ,  2008 Coachmen Concord 275DS  - $52450 (35K miles, 28')



On this forum the only one old enough to even be a comparison is a 2009 2551, ~30K miles, $52,900. (Hey...its over in Brooksville! We go there. ) 

Now granted, these are all 2-4 feet longer, but I dont see that as an asset. For a E350/450 chassis, I dont like anything over 25 foot. I feel that overloads the chassis.  I would either move to a small A at that point, or get one of the larger C's based on the class 6 chassis. (19-24K GVWR instead of the (barely..) class 4 E450 14-16K GVWR)

I feel we got a GREAT value with our purchase, a 2006 with 40K miles. We have been under the assumption that we would be working our way to getting a new one built to our specs around 2023 or so.  Looking at the quality issues that the supplied parts are giving, and the radical rise in prices...might pay to put $10-15 K into ours in improvements, and have a much nicer and 'better quality' result for ~$45K total. I dont need 'new'. Dependable and proven are my benchmarks.



* forgive my ignorance, but I base this on looking at the PC website specs. Looks like a 2350 and 2400 are similar (within a foot) sizes, and in content,  but different interior layouts. Are there any major differences in accessories or undercarriage layout that would make them handle much differently?