Potential Four Down Vehicles

We picked up a new 2018 Kia Soul base with manual transmission for $13,700.  It only weighs 2800 lbs,comes with an excellent warranty and tows and drives like a dream.  Rigged it out with a Blue Ox Ascent tow bar, patriot 2 brake system and Road Master tow defender. Very easy to set up for towing: hook up the tow bar, etc., install the brake system,  transmission in neutral, key on and then off (leave the key in the ignition and steering wheel stays unlocked), emergency brake off, and you are ready to roll.  We added Yakima roof  bicycle racks so we can take bikes without interfering with the hatchback.  As a side note - my wife loves to take the Kia to our local car wash and watch the young employees gaze in horror at the STICK SHIFT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

Sarz27200 - Sorry for the late reply but I don't read the forum every day. It turned out that the 2018 baseplate for the Buick Envision really does work on the 2019 model, the manufacturers had to first get their hands on a 2019 model and that is why it took so long to verify that fact. We decided on the Blue Ox Acent tow bar, a dual fuse bypass switch, a diode tail light kit and the Patriot 2 brake system. I installed everything myself over a two day wintery weekend and took my sweet time in our heated shop. The manual says it should take 4-5 hours for the base plate installation and a couple more for the tail light kit. I have the tools and skills so once I got by the realization that I would be tearing the front end off of my wife's perfectly useable vehicle, I found it to be an easy and even enjoyable process. A vehicle lift would have certainly speeded up the process. Blue Ox has written great installation instructions and YouTube always provides some additional perspective. I took a few pictures and will post when I get the time to figure how to do that.
Once we take the coach out of winter storage, maybe in a month, I will hook it up and give it a road test and report back. One last item, I also purchased Rock Tamer mud flaps that install on the 2" receiver tube, hopefully they will minimize the stone damage on the front of our toad. - Dick

Here are the before, during and after pictures of the baseplate installation. - Dick

Just getting up to speed on posting pictures, how about this, Sorry for any stiff necks.

Dick
Thanks for the update and pictures. Looks fantastic! When do you want to turn over the keys to us? LOL

There are two entrys on irv2.com. for the envision with sine good info.

Can't wait to hear about the road test.

Ron

RVCamping, Your pictures bring back memories of the day when I installed a tow bar bracket on the 2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder we used to tow.
 

2012 Fiat stick shift behind a 2005 2350.. Hook it up to tow bar, put in neutral, brake down and go.. Do not even have to mess around with ignition set up.. Perfect for two people. fun car.

If the car is light enough (under 2000 pounds) theoretically you are not required to have a secondary braking system.

Our first tow vehicle was a 2100 pound, 2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder.  I did not install secondary braking.  I was surprised how strongly that little car pushed against the motor home when braking.

We have an SMI Breaking system but seldom turn it on. We'll be using it in the Rocky Mountains but haven't needed it until now. We've had some steep spots here and there and some extended downhill runs and we can't tell the car is back there. We do have tow-haul mode engaged at all times as Kermit instructed.

We  drive a 2552 towing a fully loaded Subaru Forester. I suspect the car is pushing the 5,000 pound limit for the tow receiver.

Ron, it seems odd that little car affects your rig so much. I know the E-350 is lighter and your 2350 is smaller but that car is less than half the weight of ours.

Ron, it seems odd that little car affects your rig so much. I know the E-350 is lighter and your 2350 is smaller but that car is less than half the weight of ours.

Our 2007 E350 brakes are not as effective as your current-day E450 brakes in two ways.

1) The 2007 E350 and older chassis has a hydraulic brake system exactly like a typical vehicle has.  I believe all E450s (and maybe E350s 2008 and newer) have an additional belt-driven hydraulic pump to further assist the braking system, similar looking to that of the power steering system.

2) Also starting in 2008, the disk brake surface area is slightly increased.

Between the two, it's likely the reason for your improved braking performance.

Tswhitewater, I considered the Kia Soul but only for a second. Having owned a couple sports cars and one truck with a standard transmission I swore no more. Having sat in stop and go traffic for a few hours more than once and I learned to hate a standard tranny. 

I know a couple people with the Kia Soul that use them as commuters (auto trans) and they have been very dependable. Hyundai/kia make some very good vehicles.

Quote from: 2 Frazzled on April 06, 2019, 08:09:54 am

Ron, it seems odd that little car affects your rig so much. I know the E-350 is lighter and your 2350 is smaller but that car is less than half the weight of ours.

Our 2007 E350 brakes are not as effective as your current-day E450 brakes in two ways.

1) The 2007 E350 and older chassis has a hydraulic brake system exactly like a typical vehicle has.  I believe all E450s (and maybe E350s 2008 and newer) have an additional belt-driven hydraulic pump to further assist the braking system, similar looking to that of the power steering system.

2) Also starting in 2008, the disk brake surface area is slightly increased.

Between the two, it's likely the reason for your improved braking performance.

Ron,
What hydraulic assist?   My 2014 e450 cutaway (on which my 2015 2551 is built) has no hydraulic assist.  It has a standard vacuum "power brake" same as my 2000 E-350 cutaway had.

My 2551 has ABS, but that only stops the wheels from locking...and doesn't provide any assistance to normal braking.

Where did you get your information on 2008 and up cutaway?

Maybe I was wrong in that it had it's own belt driven system.  It appears the power steering hydraulic system supports it.  My 2007 E350 does not have it.  The 2007 E450 does.  You have me wondering if Ford got rid of it in later years.  It appears the devise replaces the big round vacuum assist power brake booster we are all familiar with.

To you with E450s, do you have the big round vacuum power brake booster behind your master cylinder?  Or do you have something that resembles this?






For comparison, here is an E350 vacuum assist power brake booster that we are all familiar with.

Maybe I was wrong in that it had it's own belt driven system.  It appears the power steering hydraulic system supports it.  They call it Hydroboost.  My 2007 E350 does not have it.  The 2007 E450 does.  Maybe Ford got rid of it when they revamped the chassis in 2008.

Here is a quote I just found.

"Hydro-boost power assist was introduced in 1973 by Bendix as an alternative to the vacuum booster. The hydro-boost uses the hydraulic pressure from the power steering system to provide the driver assist in applying the brakes. ... The vehicle requires more assist than is available from a vacuum booster.  Mar 1, 2005"

It appears the devise replaces the big round vacuum booster we are all familiar with.  To you with E450s, do you have the big round thing (vacuum power brake booster) behind your master cylinder?

I believe I do, that's my memory.   Ford uses hydro boost on its diesel powered heavy chassis line, but according to what I read, ( www.fiverhope.com/goods-63397-Hydro-booster-8C2Z2005A-527376-for-FORD-E-350E-450-2008-2013.html) but not the v-10 gas engine.

And yes, hydro boost comes off the power steering pump (which is belt driven), not a separate pump.

It would have been nice to have that hydro boost system on our 2007 E350.  Our vacuum assist works fine, but not so well when we were towing the Toyota MR2 without secondary braking.  When it comes to brakes, you can't have enough to cover "every" condition.