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Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.

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churst

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Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« on: November 20, 2018, 06:00:22 pm »
Hello all!

I have a 2012 2910T.  I installed solar panels and batteries for boon-docking. I have 4 100Ah 12 V Batteries parallel and 4 100W panels connected serially and a 40a MPPT controller.  I have turned off my inverter, but even then the solar panels  can not keep up.  When I disconnect the battery, then connect it again, the inverter fan turns on - even when the switch says it's off!  The surge protector is off, I checked the chassis battery and it has a different Voltage than the carriage so the"start" switch is off (I think).
The drain overnight is almost impossible to recharge using the solar alone .  When the battery is turned off I still have a nightly discharge from about 12.7 to 12.1.
I understand the cold weather (11 deg in the morning and highs of 40 - in Idaho) is effecting battery capacity , but the panels are putting out 6-20 amps during most of the day, and of course nothing at night. I would expect a float of 13.3V during the day without the battery connected.
Any ideas? Is it just the cold?
Thanks!

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keelhauler

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2018, 06:31:59 pm »
Are you running your furnace? My furnace pulls a lot of power from my batteries.
Your solar panels are in parallel not series, otherwise voltage would be 68 volts.



John

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2018, 12:02:05 am »
Hi churst,

Considering that you have a 2012 model year PC, your inverter might be a Tripp-Lite.  If so, be sure to turn off the inverter using the switch on the inverter itself.  Turning it off using the control panel is not completely shutting it down.  You will continue to have a significant drain.

There is more discussion about the Tripp-Lite inverter power drain HERE.
Ron (& Irene) Dittmer

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churst

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2018, 09:01:37 am »
My Battery is turned off, as well as the furnace, refer, water heater, fans, lights, inverter- all are turned off.  My panels ARE connected serially and will go as high as 82 V or 32 amps, that's why the 40 Amp MPPT controller.  You get much more power from serial connections, especially in poor conditions, but you have to have the proper controller.

My inverter is the 1800 watt Xantrax.  There is a little control switch behind the driver's seat, and it is turned off.  But here is the strange thing - when I turn the battery off, and the inverter is off, I can turn the battery back on and the inverter fan starts and runs a few seconds, and the inverter is still turned off.

I bought a DC amp meter and am going to test for discharge.  I hope I find something. The electron bucket is leaking!

Thanks for all the help!
Chuck

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swiftboot

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2018, 09:16:27 am »
Chuck, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think Ron d is referring to a switch actually located  on the inverter itself, not the switch behind drivers seat.  I have not had a problem with mine but try to follow these threads for future troubleshooting.   Sorry for interjecting here since  i am still learning as well, just trying to be helpful.  Larry

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churst

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2018, 10:22:54 am »
I will check for a off/on switch on the inverter.  I only hope that there is one - Problem solved then?!!
Thanks Larry!
Chuck

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2 Frazzled

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2018, 10:31:52 am »
Ron D had a different inverter/converter combined system. He does not have the Xantrax Inverter with separate converter that you have. He was giving help in case you had the same as him. Kermit told us the system Ron has worked really well but it confused people and they switched. My impression at the time was Kermit preferred the Tripp-Lite.
John, Holly, and sometimes Chloe.
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2018, 02:34:00 pm »
Ron D...... was giving help in case you had the same as him.

Kermit told us the system Ron has worked really well but it confused people and they switched. My impression at the time was Kermit preferred the Tripp-Lite.

You are correct.

I really like our 2007 Tripp-Lite inverter/converter combination unit, but it did take some time to figure out how to utilize it wisely, requiring a discipline for energy efficiency.  It is not a "no-brainer" unit for people who boon dock often.  But once you set it up for boon docking, and use discipline, it's a great unit.

Per Kermit's instruction, for multi-night boon docking, shut off the Tripp-Lite using the switch on the inverter itself.  Turn it on only to charge the batteries using the generator or shore power, or when using a 110V item on battery power.  You should also disable the standy-by feature from the control panel to save an additional 1 amp hour of energy.  This is done by unplugging the headphone jack from the rear of the remotely mounted Tripp-Lite control panel.  I unplugged mine 10 years ago and never plugged it back in.  One more benefit from this over-all practice is that the cooling fan on the inverter never runs which would disturb our night sleep.

Leave everything the way Phoenix set it up if you drive from one shore power night to the next with only overnight boon docking during your in-transit days.  Understand that when setup this way, the inverter is consuming 12 amp hours of energy.  Boon docking multiple nights with the factory setup significantly reduces battery reserve power, greatly increases recharge times, and reduces over-all battery life.

With the factory setup, camping without shore power or generator power during a 3 day holiday weekend (and not driving the rig during the weekend) would nearly kill our house batteries.  Longer boon-docking would be a total kill on the batteries unless recharging via generator with the Tripp-Lite.  I prefer recharging using my better/smarter Black & Decker battery charger for shorter generator run times.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 11:06:26 pm by Ron Dittmer »
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HowMar

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2018, 03:58:38 pm »
I have had a Triplite for 10 years. It had always had a slight drain on the batteries.  When it is on, the unit cycles the 120 volts on and off looking for a  load on the outlets.
My solution was to turn the switch on the unit off at all times unless I needed the 120 volt outlets.
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keelhauler

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2018, 06:29:12 pm »
Quote
My panels ARE connected serially and will go as high as 82 V or 32 amps, that's why the 40 Amp MPPT controller.  You get much more power from serial connections, especially in poor conditions, but you have to have the proper controller.

I can't believe this, each panel puts out 17v and up to 8 ampa. In parallel you will get 17v and 32 ampa. I think if you have them in series, the charge controller will cut back the voltage to 17 volts and you  will not get 32 amps, but only 8 amps. Please provide me some reliable source that says to put them in series.



John

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churst

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2018, 12:11:44 pm »
Sure!  Here is a pretty good site for 2 100w panels, parallel and serial. 

https://winnebagolife.com/2018/03/add-portable-solar-to-your-rv

I have 4 Renogy 100w panels.  They produce 21v at max.  That's why I have to have a 40A MPPT controller.   I have seen my controller register pv 82  volts. 
I concede the amps number may be wrong until my friend and engineer sends me a reply, which I will post here.  I do know the MPPT controller figures out your needs and goes for the gusto. 

Happy Thanksgiving all!

More later.
Chuck

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churst

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2018, 02:00:08 pm »
Here is my engineer's reply;

Basic electronics 101: When power sources are connected in Parallel, the current capacity is additive.  When Power sources are connected in Series the Voltage is additive.

Maximum Power Point Tracking PV regulators take advantage of this by wiring the matched (voltage and current output the same within small tolerances) in Series to obtain higher voltage and lower current through the wiring system to the MPPT regulator. The regulator can then actively convert the input to the optimal desired voltage and current to the battery bank.

Here is a pretty good explanation: https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/batteries-and-charging/mppt-solar-charge-controllers.html


Ray D. Congdon - KL7UT


Thanks!
Chuck

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2018, 09:38:56 pm »
We have two 160 watt panels and a Morningstar MPPT controller installed on our PC.  I did this with consideration given to adding two more similar panels if I needed the extra power in the future (in over two years we haven’t needed the extra panels).  I also considered using the series panel arrangement for the positive reasons described in the article in Chuck’s post above.  However knowing the areas where we occasionally camp could have partial tree shade on one or sometime both panels I elected to install the panels in parallel.  It is my understanding that in a series arranged array that if one panel gets partially shaded the power output of the combined array is significantly degraded.  In a parallel arrangement it is only the panel that is partially or totally shaded whose output is taken down whereas all of the other non shaded panels are producing without degradation.  If we camped in areas exclusively with a clear view of the sky the series arrangement with an MPPT controller I believe would provide a somewhat greater amount of useable power thus being more cost effective.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 09:53:10 pm by fandj »

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churst

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2018, 09:11:01 am »
I asked my engineer Ray about that - he said this;

"Actually shade is a bad thing on any array... but with the bypass diodes that are in the panels, the series installed array suffers a little less as it has more overhead voltage to work with."

But the difference wasn't worth climbing up on top of your Cruiser to change to series.

Chuck


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fandj

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Re: Drain on batteries when inverter and battery is off.
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2018, 07:46:05 pm »
Chuck, I don’t mean to be argumentative to you or your engineer.  I certainly am not a solar panel expert but I noticed on a single portable panel that I used with a travel trailer that a shadow from a blade of grass or tree limb  significantly reduced the wattage of the panel output. Clouds typically did not have as big an impact as hard shadows. It also seemed logical that since the same current must pass through every panel in series that the current output of the total series array would be set by the weakest panel I.e. the shaded panel, misaligned panel, or one with smallest potential output.

This link I think shows how shade effects parallel vs. series configuration.  https://www.gonewiththewynns.com/Sailboat-Solar-Series-Parallel-Shading  The video is especially good as it shows actual tests addressing this question.  As mentioned earlier the series configuration has advantages but the best compromise arrangement would be determined by how the panels are to used particularly if one panel will be subject to partial or full shading.

When I was designing our solar system on the PC I struggled with what was the better arrangement based on where we would typically camp and what time of year would we need the most solar output.  I wish I had seen the above video at the time it certainly would have made my decision easier.  I am sure your arrangement works well for you but I post this for others who are new to solar and hopefully will provide them some useful information.