15 Amp Service Connection

There is ONLY one way to do it safely... A 50 amp plug to 30a AND 15a adapter.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRN4C73/ref=asc_df_B01MRN4C735299883/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01MRN4C73&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198064502357&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5556998667899434989&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028903&hvtargid=pla-348585281213


Which means you MUST select a spot with a 50a receptacle.

Your other option... Turn off the heater before you use the microwave.

The question posed by the OP was how to install the service connection in/on his RV. We have turned it into a discussion of electrical supply..    BUt indeed informational!

I am unclear as to how using the 30A and 15A outlets in a properly wired pedestal would be dangerous. Even if they were supplied off the same leg, each outlet has its own local breaker, and the 15A is required to have its own GFCI. A short circuit or overload condition on either outlet is protected by the correctly sized breaker in the pedestal.

The adapter you link to has no circuit breaker protection for the 30A or the 15A outlets. Each of these outlets would be protected by one leg of the 50A breaker in the pedestal. So now there is a 30A service protected by a 50A breaker, and a 15A service protected by another 50A breaker. This appears to be the most dangerous solution so far.     I welcome correction on this. Please.

Found a free online link to the 2011 NEC , and been studying section 551 which covers RV services.  It has helped a lot, as I have little (ok...NO  ) experience wiring up RV park pedestals.

One piece of info I have yet to find is current required to melt a wire...
IE: I take a 14/3 cord, and wire nut the hot and neutral together.      IF I run it on a 30A breaker, does it trip the breaker before the wire glows red hot and/or melts the copper? 50A breaker?

Some destructive testing might be in order. I have to imagine someone else has had to try this already... just cant find it.

Quote from: donc13 on December 12, 2017, 04:41:02 pm

There is ONLY one way to do it safely... A 50 amp plug to 30a AND 15a adapter.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRN4C73/ref=asc_df_B01MRN4C735299883/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01MRN4C73&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198064502357&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5556998667899434989&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028903&hvtargid=pla-348585281213


Which means you MUST select a spot with a 50a receptacle.

Your other option... Turn off the heater before you use the microwave.

The question posed by the OP was how to install the service connection in/on his RV. We have turned it into a discussion of electrical supply..    BUt indeed informational!

I am unclear as to how using the 30A and 15A outlets in a properly wired pedestal would be dangerous. Even if they were supplied off the same leg, each outlet has its own local breaker, and the 15A is required to have its own GFCI. A short circuit or overload condition on either outlet is protected by the correctly sized breaker in the pedestal.

The adapter you link to has no circuit breaker protection for the 30A or the 15A outlets. Each of these outlets would be protected by one leg of the 50A breaker in the pedestal. So now there is a 30A service protected by a 50A breaker, and a 15A service protected by another 50A breaker. This appears to be the most dangerous solution so far.     I welcome correction on this. Please.

Found a free online link to the 2011 NEC , and been studying section 551 which covers RV services.  It has helped a lot, as I have little (ok...NO   ) experience wiring up RV park pedestals.

One piece of info I have yet to find is current required to melt a wire...
IE: I take a 14/3 cord, and wire nut the hot and neutral together.      IF I run it on a 30A breaker, does it trip the breaker before the wire glows red hot and/or melts the copper? 50A breaker?

Some destructive testing might be in order. I have to imagine someone else has had to try this already... just cant find it.

A 50 amp receptacle on a pedestal is 220 (240) volts.  Just like the wiring coming into your house... Two separate 120v circuits but they are 180 degrees out of phase so between the 2 circuits you get 240 volts.   Each one has a 50a breaker and they are tied together so if either line exceeds 50a, both sides will open (via the breaker).

However, the adapter I showed separates those 2 sides into a 30a socket and a 15 (20) amp socket.  Correct, there are no breakers in that adapter, but your 30a shoreline DOES have a 30a breaker for the shoreline.  One would presume that if you are going to put a 20 amp shoreline hookup in the fiberglass, you'd also put a 15 or 20a breaker between it and the receptacle where you'd plug in the heater.

That ONE receptacle would ONLY be hot when you ran the 2nd shoreline.   Without that 2nd shoreline plugged in, the receptacle would not be powered.

Using the adapter will guarantee that the 30a and 15a lines don't come off a single 30a breaker.

I have seen many RV park pedestals where there is only a 30a and 50a breaker but 3 receptacles.. 50a, 30a and 15a.

See attached pdf

A 50 amp receptacle on a pedestal is 220 (240) volts.  Just like the wiring coming into your house... Two separate 120v circuits but they are 180 degrees out of phase so between the 2 circuits you get 240 volts.   Each one has a 50a breaker and they are tied together so if either line exceeds 50a, both sides will open (via the breaker).

That has not been my experience. When one leg of a 220V service is used as a 110V source, only that 1/2 of the breaker trips. The bar between the two legs on the breaker many times allows one leg to trip and not the other. 

However, the adapter I showed separates those 2 sides into a 30a socket and a 15 (20) amp socket.  Correct, there are no breakers in that adapter, but your 30a shoreline DOES have a 30a breaker for the shoreline.  One would presume that if you are going to put a 20 amp shoreline hookup in the fiberglass, you'd also put a 15 or 20a breaker between it and the receptacle where you'd plug in the heater.

Correct, but the wiring between the pedestal and the coach breaker box are rated for 30A and 15A. The only protection between the post and the breaker box in the coach comes from the breakers in the pedestal. So should a short appear between the pedestal and the coach, say in your shore power connector, the pedestal breakers will trip. 
With the adapter, the 'proper' 30A and 15A shore power connector cables/wiring are now not protected by the proper size breaker. The circuits in the coach 'downstream' of the coaches breaker box are indeed protected. The shore power cables outside, and the wiring inside the coach from the shore power receptacle and into the breaker box are now not protected properly.

That ONE receptacle would ONLY be hot when you ran the 2nd shoreline.   Without that 2nd shoreline plugged in, the receptacle would not be powered.

Agreed 100%

Using the adapter will guarantee that the 30a and 15a lines don't come off a single 30a breaker.

Also true, but it having both on one 30A breaker will err on the side of safety. The 30A service between the pedestal and the coach breaker box will be properly protected, the 15A will be 'underprotected' because it will need to draw 30A + to trip the breaker if no power is being used from the 30A outlet. Both cables are limited to 3600W total power (at 120V).
With the adapter in a 50A outlet, the 30A side and/or the 15A side will need to draw 50A+ to trip the pedestal breaker. 6000W per cable (50A x 120V) or 12,000W total for both cables at 120V. Over three times the energy available to heat things up. 

I have seen many RV park pedestals where there is only a 30a and 50a breaker but 3 receptacles.. 50a, 30a and 15a.

I have gotten a few stares over this week hopping out of my VW Bus to inspect pedestals around here. After looking at ~15 or so, I also have noticed the 30A always has a 30A breaker, maybe 1/2 have the 20A breaker (I assume) feeds the 20A GFCI in the pedestal. The others just have a GFCI outlet protected by the 30A breaker. The 50A always have a 220V 50A breaker.
I know from residential wiring that things are NOT always wired 'to code'. Thats why I preface things with 'properly wired' if stating an example case.

It is indeed a luxury to be able to discuss and find potential problems like this here at the desk, rather than finding them while camping. Thank You! 

I am starting to understand why I see so many references to 'illegal' adapters on RV forums.  Having a 15A cord with the breaker built into the male end seems like a VERY good purchase. Like one of these, but maybe with a cord longer than 6 foot.  https://www.amazon.com/Power-All-Extension-Moisture-Resistant/dp/B00CJI9XMC/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_86_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=NK50FNRSGP69SKPFYD49

I am not finding any 30A 110V cords with this same feature. If they are out there, I can see the same value in them.

Maybe there is a 'correct' adapter that takes the 50A 220V service, slits it to (2) separate 110V services, and adds breakers and female plugs. If I wasnt expected to be working, I would keep searching....     Thanks again!

Volkemon thanks for the link on the power cord with breaker.  Do you know if the breaker is actuated on amps or ground fault or power surge?  I wasn’t able to find anything specific in the description or questions.

If it is a true current limiting type breaker I think I may buy it as another layer of protection.

Sure seems like it’s being over engineered. You could run a cord From the pedestal throw it thru a window and run your portable heater and be legal and safe. Not that anyone wants to do that but it is safe. What I’m getting at is you can add all these fail safes for this one 110 outlet and end up paranoid  the rest of the coach isn’t as safe.

Sure seems like it’s being over engineered. You could run a cord From the pedestal throw it thru a window and run your portable heater and be legal and safe. Not that anyone wants to do that but it is safe. What I’m getting at is you can add all these fail safes for this one 110 outlet and end up paranoid  the rest of the coach isn’t as safe.

Your thoughts are my thoughts with this one.

At the same time, I could see myself over-engineering this topic after one bad electrical mishap.  And it does seem like there are simple solutions we can easily implement via "protection inside the power cord".  It is nice to know there are such things available.  As someone had mentioned, it would seem ideal to have a 30A 30 foot power cord with circuit breaker protection built into the head of it, as found with the 15A cord with circuit protection.  That way you need not rely on the operational condition of the circuit breaker inside the power peg.

I quickly found the Power-All brand cords on Ebay with free shipping.

14 Amp, 6 foot length for $12.08 with free shipping
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-All-Commercial-Grade-125-Volt-6-ft-Cord-w-Circuit-Breaker-14-Gauge/232593161788?hash=item3627a1fe3c:g:QyMAAOSwNWxaLbct

14 Amp, 15 foot length for $16.73 with free shipping
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-All-Commercial-Grade-125-Volt-15-ft-Cord-w-Circuit-Breaker-14-Gauge/232593161702?hash=item3627a1fde6:g:QD8AAOSwi0xaLbco

14 Amp, 50 foot length for $31.61 with free shipping
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-All-Commercial-Grade-125-Volt-50-ft-Cord-w-Circuit-Breaker-14-Gauge/232593161513?hash=item3627a1fd29:g:bOUAAOSwVNxaLbcb

Sure seems like it’s being over engineered. You could run a cord From the pedestal throw it thru a window and run your portable heater and be legal and safe. Not that anyone wants to do that but it is safe. What I’m getting at is you can add all these fail safes for this one 110 outlet and end up paranoid  the rest of the coach isn’t as safe.

Well, this is the time to 'over engineer' - before one actually builds it.    Beats over engineering after the fire. 

Per your example above, say I do run the cord through a window, and plug in the heater.  Now I have a window that doesnt close all the way, letting out more heat. I also have lost the water/snow blocking purpose of the window, as I have to leave it open now. (I do plan on adding window awnings, as I like to have the windows open in the rain) Even with the awnings, the bugs will go in the opening also. I can see the value in a proper 'bulkhead fitting' to bring the power into the coach. Looks classy too. 

Adding the 'fail safes' are actually to relieve the paranoia that the coach isnt protected due to bypassing/misuse of safety devices. Having that breaker at the male end of the 15/20A cord ensures *anything* downstream is protected. Likewise for the 30A. Even using an adapter that allows 50amps to pass through a 15A outlet will be made safe like that. If the park handyman was having a bad day with a weak breaker tripping, so bypasses it 'temporarily'... and forgets.. this will protect my coach.

Is ANYTHING fail safe and sure? Nope. But I find preparation and planning do go a long ways towards prevention.

 

Volkemon thanks for the link on the power cord with breaker.  Do you know if the breaker is actuated on amps or ground fault or power surge?  I wasn’t able to find anything specific in the description or questions.

If it is a true current limiting type breaker I think I may buy it as another layer of protection.

On lunch break now, so a little time to research...and WOW is it vauge about how the breaker works.    Looked at several others, and they often state GFCI protection...but no mention of overcurrent protection.

Power surge would not be covered by this type of adapter, I am guessing. If it was, 'SURGE PROTECTION' would be all over it.  Its sad they dont list the type of breaker on this cord. Found the same product for sale in many other places, none specify GFCI protection, overcurrent, etc. Just 'Breaker' . I will research more, and be back.

..... And it does seem like there are simple solutions we can easily implement via "protection inside the power cord".  It is nice to know there are such things available.  As someone had mentioned, it would seem ideal to have a 30A 30 foot power cord with circuit breaker protection built into the head of it, as found with the 15A cord with circuit protection.  That way you need not rely on the operational condition of the circuit breaker inside the power peg.

Darn it... I was hoping you already had a source for the 30A cords Ron.    It seems so simple...have a 30A breaker in the head of the cord, everything downstream protected. Must be some other details in implementing such a device that makes it not so common.

 

I wonder if there 15 and 30 Amp products available (a box thingy without a cord) that plugs into the power peg outlet, then you plug your cord into it.  It sounds silly to have redundant circuit breakers just inches apart, but it would assure reliable circuit breaker protection.

A quick search, I found this "indoor" 15 Amp box thingy.  I am not electrical savy....it says 15 Amp GFCI.  Is it just a GFCI or is it both a circuit breaker and a GFCI.  I don't think GFCI is the same as a circuit breaker.
https://www.zoro.com/power-first-plug-in-gfci-ylw-15a-5-15p-indoor-120va-5yl43/i/G1353143/
Plug-In GFCI, Cord Length No Cord, Color Yellow, 15 Amps, NEMA Plug Configuration 5-15P, NEMA Receptacle Configuration 5-15R, Enclosure Rating Indoor, Outlet Configuration 1 Outlet, NEC Cord Designation No Cord, Range of Lengths No Cord, Voltage Rating 120VAC, 60 Hz, Number of Poles 2, Number of Wires 3, Material Durable, Heavy Duty Plastic, Reset Type Manual, Standards UL, CSA, Self-Testing No

Thats just a GFCI protector.

Southwire has a line of RV surge and GFCI protectors. https://rvpower.southwire.com/products/surge-protection/

Just got off the phone with their tech department, and NONE of their products have overcurrent protection. Just over/under voltage, surge and GFCI protection.

I asked if they had any overcurrent protectors for RV... nope. He said there is a breaker in the post for that.  I asked about possibilities that the post may be miswired, breaker bypassed, adapter used etc... got told that if any of those conditions exist, turn off the power and contact park management. And the adapters are not to be used, and should be illegal.  In their world, overcurrent protection for an RV beyond what the pedestal provides is unnecessary and redundant. 

I respectfully disagree. For what thats worth.

I wonder if there 15 and 30 Amp products available (a box thingy without a cord) that plugs into the power peg outlet, then you plug your cord into it.  It sounds silly to have redundant circuit breakers just inches apart, but it would assure reliable circuit breaker protection.

I have no problems with redundant safety systems.

I wouldn't mind a box thingy with a cord.

 Cover to guard against the elements.
 Multiple inputs (50A 220V, 30A 110V, 20A 110V)  to source power from the pedestal.
  30A 110V breaker and a 20A 110V breaker feeding their respective outlets.

As usual, if I cant buy it, I will build it. This thread has been MOST helpful in realizing different power 'threat' scenarios. 

I kind of like the idea of belts and suspenders particularly after seeing the exterior condition of some power pedestals outlets as well as finding one that had a live improperly wired outlet.  15 amp residential style breakers are relatively cheap (<$10) but I have not found a small single breaker enclosure. Are these available?

I may have to rely on the 15 amp pedestal breaker but would rather not.  One normally depends on the 30 amp pedestal breaker for the power cord, internal PC wiring/connectors to the relay switch and to my power management system and finally wiring/connectors to the PC breaker box so perhaps this 15 amp circuit is not so different.  However, I would feel better with a belt as a backup to my suspenders.

 However, I would feel better with a belt as a backup to my suspenders.

   I have never heard this before, but LOVE it!

Found these breakers, other web images show the back better. two screw to mount to top, and you can just see the rear mounting screws for the power wires.



You can select 2.5A to 50A single pole on this page. Might be available elsewhere, I just found them here first.
blue-sea-systems--a-series-single-pole-white-toggle-circuit-breakers--P002413698


A good start.  

Quote from: fandj on December 14, 2017, 02:38:48 pm

 However, I would feel better with a belt as a backup to my suspenders.

   I have never heard this before, but LOVE it!

Found these breakers, other web images show the back better. two screw to mount to top, and you can just see the rear mounting screws for the power wires.



You can select 2.5A to 50A single pole on this page. Might be available elsewhere, I just found them here first.
blue-sea-systems--a-series-single-pole-white-toggle-circuit-breakers--P002413698


A good start.  

Not really.  That breaker is designed to be inside a circuit oanel box that is NOT exposed to the elements.

Your 30a shoreline is routed through the transfer s
Switch to your circuit breaker panel where BEFORE anything else, it goes thru a 30a breaker.

Not really.  That breaker is designed to be inside a circuit oanel box that is NOT exposed to the elements.

LOL... maybe we build things differently... but I was planning on this being inside a weather resistant box, outside. After the 50A male plug, but before the 30A and 15A female sockets.

Your 30a shoreline is routed through the transfer s
Switch to your circuit breaker panel where BEFORE anything else, it goes thru a 30a breaker.

I have not dug into the wiring between the shore power hookup on the outside of the coach and the breaker panel. I am overdue there. I am under the impression that my 30A shorepower plugs into the pedestal, or adapter(s) attached to it.

Then it connects to the bulkhead/connector on the side of my camper. Inside, there is wiring that connects the bulkhead to the transfer switch. From the transfer switch, there is wiring leading to the breaker box in the coach. In this box is a 30A fuse that protects the wiring from the pedestal to the coach from damaging short circuits after the breaker box.

So if I am using the 50A to 30A /15A adapter, with my 30A shorepower plugged in, dont I have to have 50A (or ~6000W ) of draw before the pedestal breaker blows? HOPEFULLY having the breaker putting near twice the power in before tripping does not leave me with hot wire fire before it blows, as the wiring and equipment before the coach breaker box is designed for a 30A.

This is truly a 'belt and suspenders' scenario. If there was a HUGE problem with this, there would be many more electrical fires reported in RV's. The adapters would be banned. There is not, and they are not.

The important thing however, is that I feel MY coach is protected. And others may have the same feeling.

Imagine if you will... the adapter below -


But with small (2x4x2) accessible boxes inline with the 30 and 15 amp outlets.*  Inside each of the boxes are the appropriate breaker (15A or 30A) feeding that outlet. I am thinking small screw cover watertight boxes, as HOPEFULLY one doesnt need to reset the breakers on a regular basis.    This would be a simple and SAFE way to use a 50A adapter, and have a current protected 30A and 15A service from it.  The shore power cable, the outlet on the coach, the internal wiring, transfer switch and the supply line to the coach breaker box are now all protected properly by a 30A breaker, not a 50. The additional 15A, be it a 'cord through the window' or other configuration, is now protected by a 15A breaker, not a 50A breaker.


Aside from a minor weight gain of the adapter, I dont see a down side to this. I do see benefits.

The holiday season has me a bit slow on my projects right now, but I plan on getting the adapter, boxes and breakers soon.

As always, corrections welcome!! Please.

* Hm... maybe just one bigger box with both breakers. Might be easier to work with. As usual, at work thinking about camper projects.