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New Owner

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 12:41:40 am »
What is the difference between a heat pump and a heat strip?
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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 10:48:02 am »
A heat pump uses a compressor like an air conditioner.  Basically it is a "heat mover", it can move "heat" from inside to outside if you want to cool or from outside to inside if you want to heat.  Residential heat pumps are one of the most efficient heating systems for homes in moderate climates.  But they do not work as well as a furnace when the outside temps go below 40F.

Heat strips are resistant heat coils powered by electricity similar to the glowing coils in small space heaters.  They use an enormous amount of electricity because they are creating "heat" rather than moving it as a heat pump does.

In most applications there will be a supplemental heat source that takes over when temperatures fall below what the heat pump can work at.  This quickly reduces the cost effectiveness of a heat pump in colder climates since you need both the heat pump and a furnace.  In the case of an RV we will also have the LP furnace to take over below 40F.  But I'm not planning on too many camping trips when its that cold anyway. :)

http://www.heatpump-reviews.com/heat-pump.html

« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:49:33 am by jatrax »

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Michelle Dungan

Re: New Owner
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2016, 12:55:48 am »
I'll second what Jatrax said re. heat pumps, from what I recall from the '70's, when they were new for RVs and we had one on one of the travel trailers.  One could sort of think of them as an air conditioner that can run in reverse, though to design something to do so is rather complicated and expensive. As I recall, when they were operated to heat the rv, power consumption was about the same as when set for cooling, during chilly but not cold evenings (not sure of exact cutoff, but below 40 it really wouldn't work).  However, more heat could be produced than with the same power to a heat strip, so it'd cycle on less frequently.  As for cost-effectiveness, they might be worth it if one frequently needed electric heat in their sweetspot of about 45+ ambient temperatures and was paying an electric bill for heating.  For most RVers, not in such circumstances too long, the cheaper, simpler electric heat strip-only units or, cheaper yet, a portable electric heater, or simply the propane furnace, would be more cost-effective.  I recall my father and I thought it would pencil out but actual chilly weather camping with hookups was nil, so it did not.

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2016, 02:21:09 am »
Thank you both for the clarification on heat pumps in-general.

For the application in a roof-top a/c unit on the roof of a motor home, I feel energy usage is generally not a consideration as Michelle noted.  Would we all agree?  If so, then I would think "Noise" and "Quanity Of Heat In Colder Temps" would be the focus, not energy efficiency.

Does the heat pump in a PC generate more heat or less heat in colder temps than the heat strip offered?
Does the heat pump in a PC make more noise or less noise than the heat strip offered?

I don't have the answers but my ignorance says the heat strip is the clear winner.  Adding $400 for a heat pump makes no sense.  I feel I am missing something here.

Ron
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 02:30:53 am by ron.dittmer »
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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2016, 12:54:49 pm »
Ron I am no expert, and until my rig is built I cannot tell from first hand experience.  However my thoughts:
Quote
Does the heat pump in a PC generate more heat or less heat in colder temps than the heat strip offered?
In moderate temperatures I think the heat pump will deliver more heat.  This based on comments on this forum.  In really cold temperatures the heat strips will deliver more.  However, based on what I have read here in really cold temperatures the heat strips do not deliver enough so either the LP furnace or an auxiliary heater will be needed anyway.  So I'll call this a draw for the average person.

 
Quote
Does the heat pump in a PC make more noise or less noise than the heat strip offered?
Again this is based on comments I have read here.  Several people have noted that the 15k unit is actually quieter than the 13.5k unit.  Without knowing the brand names and model numbers I cannot research reliability and so on but I am betting the 15k is a 'better' unit.  But of course I do not actually know that.   And we do not actually know that the units being installed in 2017 are the same as the folks are talking about from a few years ago.

Bottom line, I doubt that the choice will really make that much difference in the long run.  I prefer the heat pump based on my research but I could be wrong.

I will ask Earl if he can provide the model number.

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Doneworking

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2016, 01:21:07 pm »
We had a heat pump AC in a rig we owned a few years ago.  It was great!  (Our previous experience with a heat pump was in a vacation house we owned in Northern Arkansas and it gets cold over there.  We had a heat pump with auxiliary 10,000 watt heat strips.  The AC worked great in the summer and the heat pump worked fine as long as the temps were above 40 degrees.  As I recall, its efficiency dropped a bunch below that temp but the strips kicked on and kept the place nice and cozy.  That was my first experience with a heat pump so I was excited to get one in our rv later on.)

Now, with the Phoenix Cruiser we have the heat strips.  They work OK for just taking off a chill, but I fire up the propane heater if it is really cold and then maybe turn it off and use the heat strips to maintain the temp.  I would much prefer that our rig had the 15k AC and heat pump and I would certainly order that combo on any new rig if available. 

Like a couple of other posts have said, it is just an air conditioner in reverse, really. 

Your list of options on the new rig makes me want to play the old Mancini song "Dreamsville" because it will be a dream come true.   That will be one super nice RV. 

Paui

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fandj

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2016, 02:53:58 pm »
I do not have the unit with heat strips in our PC but a previous camping trailer did have the strips.  I believe the strips are rated at 1500 watts so the maximum heat is about 5,200 btu.  The PC heat pump is rated at 15,000 btu so about 3 times as much.  The heat pump rating is at a specific temperature.  Below 40 degrees the heat pump heat output drops off pretty quickly.

I selected the 15,000 btu heat pump model primarily for its extra cooling ability.  It was reported by some people that it was quieter than the basic 13,500 btu AC as well though I cannot personally attest to this.  I can say the heat pump compressor is relatively quiet but interior fan noise level is somewhat excessive.

When electrical hookup is available and the outside temperature 40F or higher the heat pump is useful in warming the coach quickly.  Once up to temperature I prefer the small 1500 watt electric space heaters for their relatively quiet operation.

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2016, 03:55:50 pm »
I believe the strips are rated at 1500 watts so the maximum heat is about 5,200 btu.  The PC heat pump is rated at 15,000 btu so about 3 times as much.
So there I have it.  The heat pump generates 3 times the heat, but starts dropping off when outside temps get below 40 degrees.  Thank you for the education.

Regarding the noise level of the roof top a/c system, a few years ago I recall someone here ordering a Coleman unit for it supposedly runs at a significantly reduced noise level.  People ordering a new PC might want to look into it.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 04:45:42 pm by ron.dittmer »
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TomHanlon

Re: New Owner
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2016, 03:58:39 pm »
30 or 50 amp system? What is the amps of the 13500 vs 15000 ac? What about heat strip vs heat pump?
I know my dw like to pop the 30 amp breaker with ac and heat strip running. She will start the coffee maker or microwave or a hair dryer and pop goes the weasal.

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Ron Dittmer

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    • My 2007 2350 Phoenix Cruiser
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  • Location: N/E Illinois
Re: New Owner
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2016, 04:50:29 pm »
I know my dw like to pop the 30 amp breaker with ac and heat strip running. She will start the coffee maker or microwave or a hair dryer and pop goes the weasal.
I can relate with you Tom.  The same goes with our 30 amp PC.  We need to pay attention to multiple high power items running at the same time.  "Wait Honey, let me turn off the 1500 watt floor heater before you start the microwave".

It is very unusual for us to have 30 amp service where we stay, but this past rip to New England in cool temps was different.  I was learning all over again managing power like that.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 05:07:34 pm by ron.dittmer »
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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2016, 04:58:26 pm »
My original build list specified the 50 amp option.  But when we were at the factory they sorta talked me out of it.  But so many things were going on that I really never pursued a solid answer on which to use.

I think someone at the factory said that the only thing on the other 'leg' is the second A/C unit which I was not getting.  Anyway I got confused and let it drop.  Maybe I should re-visit that before they start building?

Anyone with a 50amp panel, how is it wired?  Do they split the circuits between the two legs or is it just the second A/C on the other side?

I think I was told that both 50amp and 30amp builds use the same power panel, except on 30amp they use the other side for the inverter plugs and on a 50amp build they use the other side for the second A/C.  But to be honest that does not make any sense so I think I must have misunderstood something.

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KB9OMH

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2016, 07:50:54 pm »
jatrax, I have the 50 AMP upgrade and love it. The best thing is that I don't have to think about what is on. I can run both AC/Heat Strips, Microwave, Water heater and Wife hair dryer all at the came time. With only 30 AMPs 1 AC, Water Heater, if you want to run the Microwave you have to shut off the AC/Heat Strip. Now with the generator running only the front AC/Heat Strip can run, and the Water Heater. We have 3 dogs that travel with us so we can shut off the bedroom from the front and still have AC/Heat Strip and run the front unit for the girls. We have camped in 10 degree weather and have been very warm with both running without the gas heater on.
Hope this will help

Jim

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TomHanlon

Re: New Owner
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2016, 08:59:28 am »
1 A/C or 2? With one A/C you only need 30 amp service. Lighter electric cord when hooking up. With two A/Cs you need 50 amp service. Very heavy cord outside. Go to an RV store and pick up one of each in a 25 or 30 foot length.

In the 2552 with one A/C if you close the folding door, you block the A/C from the rear of the coach. If you have guest sleeping up front or one of you wants to go to bed while the other stays up and you want to close off the bedroom, no A/C in the bedroom or bathroom. With two A/Cs and 50 amp service you can run both of them and cool/heat both areas.

I don't know how color panels play into all this.

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jatrax

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2016, 12:05:55 pm »
 
Quote
I have the 50 AMP upgrade and love it.
Jim, can you tell me how that is wired?  Specifically where did they put the inverter circuits?  Did they use a sub-panel?

Quote
1 A/C or 2? With one A/C you only need 30 amp service. Lighter electric cord when hooking up. With two A/Cs you need 50 amp service.
Tom, I have only the one A/C at this time, the 15k unit.  I asked and was told it was no larger than the 13.5k unit as far as roof space.  I really like the idea of 2 units, one front one back, I think you might have posted about that before.  However, solar is a priority for me so having that second unit might be an issue for roof space.

My eventual goal is to have 600 watts of solar on the roof with an equivalently sized Lithium battery.  But that will have to wait a bit.  Lithium prices should start to drop in a few years so I am trying to size wire and space to eventually accommodate that layout without wasting money on things that will need to be replaced.  Always easier to build in than retrofit, within reason.
John

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KB9OMH

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Re: New Owner
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2016, 01:15:07 pm »
jatrax:  My is wired like a 220 home, with a double main breaker. The plug on the outside is a 4 prong for 2 110v circuit. What happen when you plug into a 30 to 50 amp adapter is the hot wire of the 30 amp is crossed wired over to the 2nd hot wire of the 50 amp plug. SO with the 50 amp circuit you really have 100 amp of 110 vac, and with 30 vac you get only 30 amps of power. That why you can run just about everything at one time with to 50 amp service.  Not sure where they put the  inverter circuits on my PC3100. Have never need to check it out, but I think it's under the passenger side bed, I hear a fan coming on/off at times  Hope this helps, let me know if you need any more help.

Jim