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Refer Madness

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Michelle Dungan

Refer Madness
« on: October 02, 2016, 05:16:19 pm »
Having seen several absorption refrigerators fail to perform well and a childhood memory of one starting a trailer fire (total loss) while being towed down the highway ("Dad!  Something's wrong with the trailer!  People are passing and pointing back at it!"), and being aware of lawsuits against both Dometic and Norcold, plus questioning the merit of now using power-draining circuit boards to control them, I'd prefer a small 12-volt compressor unit with adequate battery capacity, solar, etc., of course.  And, no more worries over out-of-level operation damage or poor performance in high ambient temperatures.  Has anyone ordered a PC with one, or had their old absorption unit changed out?  Sportsmobile sells more with the 12-volt compressor units.  A true Class B is more likely to be driven daily, thus recharging batteries.  But, it would seem small Class C's (or "B+") like PC would see similar use and benefit, too.  Not everyone wants to park, level, and let it sit.  Thoughts?
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4X4Diversion

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2016, 01:00:54 am »
I also wanted a compressor refrigerator -- primarily we wanted to avoid the requirements for being level that an absorption refrigerator requires -- as we intend to camp in areas that are often not level such as national forests and state parks. We have a 2351 on order and requested that a DE-0061 Norcold compressor refrigerator be used in place of the normal absorption refrigerator -- Phoenix approved this request. 
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jatrax

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2016, 12:02:46 pm »
Considering this as well.  From my research it will work if either 1) you are driving or hooked up most of the time or 2) you have enough solar and batteries to handle the power drain.  The power demand is not high, just relatively constant.  Some sources say a 2.2 amp average draw using a 50% duty cycle.  So roughly a 50 amp hour requirement per day.  Can you replace that with the alternator or solar along with all other power demands?  if so, then it should not be a problem.

It seems most recommend a refrigerator using the Danfoss 12 volt compressor.  Norcold, Nova Cool and Vitafrigo have models using that compressor.  Possibly Dometic as well but I am not sure of that.  The real question for me would be whether a model can be found that will fit and if PC will install it.  Apparently they will so that is good news.

One other thing to note is that I have seen install recommendations suggesting 1-2" of foam insulation be installed around the top, sides and back if the vent is to the front.  This provides additional insulation and reduces the battery draw.  Of course this will vary with the model as some vent to the rear.

Another question is how PC would handle the current high / low vents on the side of the coach.  Leave them in place?  Remove them?  Cover with secure panels?
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donc13

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2016, 03:30:56 pm »
Quote from: jatrax on October 03, 2016, 12:02:46 pm
Considering this as well.  From my research it will work if either 1) you are driving or hooked up most of the time or 2) you have enough solar and batteries to handle the power drain.  The power demand is not high, just relatively constant.  Some sources say a 2.2 amp average draw using a 50% duty cycle.  So roughly a 50 amp hour requirement per day.  Can you replace that with the alternator or solar along with all other power demands?  if so, then it should not be a problem.

It seems most recommend a refrigerator using the Danfoss 12 volt compressor.  Norcold, Nova Cool and Vitafrigo have models using that compressor.  Possibly Dometic as well but I am not sure of that.  The real question for me would be whether a model can be found that will fit and if PC will install it.  Apparently they will so that is good news.

One other thing to note is that I have seen install recommendations suggesting 1-2" of foam insulation be installed around the top, sides and back if the vent is to the front.  This provides additional insulation and reduces the battery draw.  Of course this will vary with the model as some vent to the rear.

Another question is how PC would handle the current high / low vents on the side of the coach.  Leave them in place?  Remove them?  Cover with secure panels?

The Norcold is 2.2 amps @24v, 3.5 amps @12v   considering the draw from everything else, i doubt you'd get much more than 24 hrs on batteries alone.   3.5a @ 12v = 42 watts.   X 24hrs = 1,000 watts per day.   A good solar panel can output about 50 watts,  but only during the peak sun hours of the day.

Just sayin'
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Michelle Dungan

Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2016, 03:19:13 am »
'glad to hear PC is willing to put in different refrigerators than what's listed as the standard absorption models.  I'd go with something smaller to save power and with the additional insulation, too.  After having an original, no-circuit board Dometic fail on Dad's old Roadtrek and seeing that the replacement Dometic with circuit board consumed a small but steady amount of 12-volt power when running on propane, and that it doesn't handle high heat as well as the old absorption units in the '69 Nomad or '77 Ideal trailers I grew up with, and the off-level operation problems issue, like some of the rest of you, I've about had it with them.  Hmmmm... Maybe PC could list a small 12-volt compressor refrigerator along with solar panels and call it a "boondockers option"!
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jatrax

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2016, 07:53:48 am »
Quote
The Norcold is 2.2 amps @24v, 3.5 amps @12v   considering the draw from everything else, i doubt you'd get much more than 24 hrs on batteries alone.   3.5a @ 12v = 42 watts.   X 24hrs = 1,000 watts per day.   A good solar panel can output about 50 watts,  but only during the peak sun hours of the day.
Most I have looked at show factory specs of 3.5 to 5 amps @ 12 volts.  But actual use will be lower depending on desired internal temperature and the ambient temperature.   As well as how often the door is opened and the insulation installed.  Several people reporting an average duty cycle of 50% so 2.2 or 2.5 @ 12 volt is likely a good starting point in real world.

Regardless, I agree a single panel and regular battery pack is not going to go much over 24 hours if that.  I am thinking 3 to 4 panels if they will fit and a 4 battery pack.  So possibly 200 Amp hours usable. My initial energy audit shows about 150 amp hours per day with no conservation so I think 24 hours is no problem and 48 is possible with some conservation.  That is with no generator use.  So that (if possible) will suit my use model.  How it works for anybody else is a different story of course.

Quote
I'd go with something smaller to save power and with the additional insulation, too. 
Not sure how much "smaller" will help.  The factory specs are amazingly similar regardless of actual size.  I suppose that is because they all seem to use the same Danfoss compressor regardless of size.  The only change is the square footage of wall exposed to the outside.
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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2016, 12:54:12 pm »
The type of camping you do will impact any decision to go with a compressor fridge as we did. In warmer weather we typically go on short 'off grid' trips in the mountains where temperatures are quite low -- especially at night -- so fridge compressor will not be running that much. In the winter we go south for longer trips but expect to be connected to electrical at campgrounds most of the time.
For more electrical power capacity we are using two 'Lifeline GPL-31T' AGM batteries which Phoenix has agreed to install for us. They are rated at 105AH each.
We had a similar arrangement of compressor fridge and AGM batteries in our truck camper -- paired with a small solar panel -- and it worked great for us.
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donc13

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2016, 04:06:14 pm »
Quote from: jatrax on October 04, 2016, 07:53:48 am
Quote
The Norcold is 2.2 amps @24v, 3.5 amps @12v   considering the draw from everything else, i doubt you'd get much more than 24 hrs on batteries alone.   3.5a @ 12v = 42 watts.   X 24hrs = 1,000 watts per day.   A good solar panel can output about 50 watts,  but only during the peak sun hours of the day.
Most I have looked at show factory specs of 3.5 to 5 amps @ 12 volts.  But actual use will be lower depending on desired internal temperature and the ambient temperature.   As well as how often the door is opened and the insulation installed.  Several people reporting an average duty cycle of 50% so 2.2 or 2.5 @ 12 volt is likely a good starting point in real world.

Regardless, I agree a single panel and regular battery pack is not going to go much over 24 hours if that.  I am thinking 3 to 4 panels if they will fit and a 4 battery pack.  So possibly 200 Amp hours usable. My initial energy audit shows about 150 amp hours per day with no conservation so I think 24 hours is no problem and 48 is possible with some conservation.  That is with no generator use.  So that (if possible) will suit my use model.  How it works for anybody else is a different story of course.

Quote
I'd go with something smaller to save power and with the additional insulation, too. 
Not sure how much "smaller" will help.  The factory specs are amazingly similar regardless of actual size.  I suppose that is because they all seem to use the same Danfoss compressor regardless of size.  The only change is the square footage of wall exposed to the outside.


Don't know where you'd put the extra 2 batteries, but if you have shore power available... that's not an issue.

The concept of a 12v compressor refer is good, but I personally like the propane refrigerators for my RV.   I am often not perfectly level but have never had an issue with the refrigerator working whether on propane or 120v heater.   Obviously others have had problems.   

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Michelle Dungan

Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2016, 01:52:17 am »
Per a Dometic tech over the phone and the shop doing annual warranty-maintaining cleaning, testing, and inspection of a replacement Dometic on our Roadtrek which has ventilation on sides like what I think I recall seeing on PC slide out models with refer in slide out, a stronger chimney effect is to be had with units having a roof vent than those on the upper side.  This matches my experience with the old travel trailers, which performed better than this unit with side and top insulation added to fill gaps that are supposed to be 0-clearance (PC owners, check yours; shop tech said most brand just throw a refer in an oversized opening and call it good enough), baffles to improve airflow in and out, and a small fan all added.  In any case, if I buy a used PC or any other rig, I'll live with whatever is already in it 'til it fails and then decide whether there're any 12-volt compressor units out there with low enough power consumption vs. whatever bank of batteries and solar arrays I'd want to install to improve the situation, or just pick up one of those top quality vacuum-type ice chests and buy ice every few days when packing meat, etc.  Ultra pasteurized milk in those small cartons that don't need refrigeration, and a good ice chest, does save on propane and/or battery power.  Cost/benefit probably similar if one is not needing ice all the time.
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mcdwmurray

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2017, 02:32:18 pm »
can anybody detail which refrigerators Kermit has agreed to use, if any, with regard to residential units?
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hutch42

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2017, 09:03:59 pm »
We had Nova Kools on both our boats.  Never had a problem.  They were side by sides 5.6CF combined.  Kept
the fridge at 38-40 degrees and the freezer at 0 to -10 regardless of outside temps.  Drew a constant 3.5 amps
once cooled to normal temps.  Added a little computer fan hooked to compressor. Blew cool air across the coils.
Only drew several infinitesimal nothing amps, but reduced overall reefer draw to 3.1 amps.  During the shoulder seasons
this dropped to around 2.8 amps

The second Nova Kool ran 24X7X365 for 12 years (sans 1 day a year for defrost)  A friend had exact same model
on his boat.  Ran same amount of time for 15 years before compressor went.  This a combo of AC/DC.  Great refrigerators.
Our total draw on 34' boat was around a 100 amps a day in summer and 85 (95 if we turned on Espar furnace for a few hours) in spring and fall.  This included the reefer, Halogen lights, Vac-U-Flush toilet, water pump, radio, a bizillon LED"s on various panels, and some navigation equipment.

A good house bank, solar, and a few hours on generator may do the trick.
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jatrax

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2017, 11:59:19 pm »
I wanted a Nova Kool unit in my rig based on the excellent reviews online.  However, Kermit would only approve the Norcold DE-0061.  The reason stated was they had experience with Norcold and had used that unit in another rig so felt comfortable fitting it.

That is a marine unit, not residential like was asked but it does run on 12/120 power no propane.  
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 11:28:45 pm by jatrax »
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sailors35

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Re: Refer Madness
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2017, 09:16:15 pm »
I had a 12v Frigoboat air cooled system on my boat for years.  Very efficient with an auto compressor controller.  About 8 cubic feet with small freezer.  The key is great insulation.  Probably used about 40ahr per day, but had 4 6v batts, 150 watts solar and  wind gens.  Key is having a whole system, one weak link and it won't work.
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