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PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?

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pflasch

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PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« on: March 12, 2016, 12:15:57 am »
Discussion:  Do you think PC will ever build a version on the new Ford Transit 350 5 cylinder diesel chassis?

Winnebago, Thor and Coachmen have stated building models on the new Transit chassis.
With newer technologies, cost savings and a new modern diesel engine, it would make sense!

The Ford E-Series chassis is older technology that will be phased out eventually.
The RAM Promaster chassis is being used on some coaches right now, but companies like Coachmen are switching to a Ford Transit chassis for some of their models (i.e. their "Orion" model).
The Mercedes Benz chassis is nice, but is more than 1000 lbs heavier and $20,000 more expensive than the Ford Transit 350 chassis! When it comes to service on Mercedes, they are not as easy to get fixed as the Ford units, because not all Mercedes dealers will work on their truck chassis!

So the question is: Do you think Phoenix Cruiser will build on this new chassis??  Earl???  Kyle????

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ron-n-toni

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2016, 07:59:38 am »
With a GVW of 10,360#,it would have to be built out of balsa wood and Styrofoam. roflol

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pflasch

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2016, 08:44:06 am »
Yes, with a 2500 - 4000 pound GVWR difference it would require a lighter weight construction for sure!

But with modern materials and design it's possible, as proven by some of the largest motor coach companies!

I can remember back when a full size car from the 1960's weighed almost twice what a full size car weights today!
And today the newer cars are safer with a lot better fuel economy!

I'm just suggesting that it's possible!
Just something to think about...

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Doneworking

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2016, 11:26:25 am »
I saw one of these new units at the Dallas RV show a couple of weeks ago.  If you go to the three announced manufacturers' website you won't find these units, except for I believe (?) the Winnebago.  It came out in January.  I have seen the Winne and the Coachman.  Yes, it can be done.  Many of us don't have a Sprinter based chassis because of service center concerns.  Most MB car places won't service Sprinters, apparently, according to other forums and my own inquiries.  If you plan on being out in the boonies of the West, that can be a problem.  For example, the MB site shows no authorized serviced centers for a guy like me once I leave Oklahoma City until I get to Albuquerque (570 miles).  From Albuquerque north, next stop is Denver, about 450 miles.   The appeal of the small Ford diesel will be that Ford is in most towns in North America.  And the price.

We are going to see a lot of changes in the RV industry for sure.  The new Ford and Dodge chassis are offering a whole lot of additional selection and have a market.  For folks like me, I just don't want to give up my tried and true V10 and the ability to load that baby to the gills with stuff and still pull a 4000 pound Jeep behind it.  These new Ram and Ford products will be really neat for a true Class B coach in my opinion.  We will know more in a couple of months, once the notoriously slow manufacturers update their websites to show their new products.  I have always thought that a rather strange approach to marketing in this day and time.

By the way, Gulfstream has brought back the BT Cruiser and I saw a 2016 5230 in Dallas that was identical in layout to the 2003 we bought new thirteen years ago.  Some designs are just successful and don't need to change.  That is my opinion of Phoenix Cruisers.....a small niche market for a cool, really slick looking, high built quality rv. 

The nice thing about going to three RV shows in the last few weeks is that I always leave smirking a bit because none compare to what we own for our use and likes. 

Paul

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2016, 12:51:30 pm »
Here are my thoughts on pflasch's opening question.

If I was the final decision maker at Phoenix, I would not be offering a Transit (with it's current weight limitations) because the company has a proven track record with it's design and processes.  It doesn't make sense to come up with something totally different that is light enough for the Transit.  Phoenix would need to introduce a totally new construction process AS AN OPTION for just a few of their smallest models.  It does not make financial sense unless the E350 and E450 became unavailable, forcing them to re-evaluate everything.

Now if Ford came up with a heavier duty Transit that is comparable to the Sprinter and E350, that would open opportunity for Phoenix to offer that chassis.  I personally feel a 2350 built on an imaginary Super Duty Transit would be "One Awesome Rig".

If Ford later does not improve upon the Transit enough to carry enough load, and they dropped the E350, but kept the E450, it wouldn't be the worst thing for Phoenix to remove a rear leaf spring or two on each side of an E450 to soften the ride for their smaller models.  Then they could keep everything the same to keep doing what they are so good at.

A few weeks ago, I had the opportunity to compare the Transit cut-away to the Sprinter cut-away chassis at the Chicago auto show.  There is quite a difference between each and between them and the E350.  One thing certain, I understand much better now why neither of them can have their wheel bases modified like the E350 and E450.  It seems near impossible to precisely cut a hollow thin-metal two-piece-tack-welded box frame, add or remove material to adjust the wheel base, then rejoin the frame.  There would be too much inconsistency in the process, and the material is just too flimsy, like working with flexing sheet metal instead of a thick solid steel frame.

For the curious.....

Getting into the Transit is like getting into a mini-van.  It sits much lower.  Getting into a Sprinter is like climbing into an E-Series.  It sits much higher.

I don't have pictures of the E350 and E450, but they have a nice thick "C" shape frame that is easy to manage for frame adjustments.  The E350 is naturally a little thinner than the E450.

Here is the Sprinter.  Note the two piece box frame with a mid-point flange on the inside and outside where they get tack welded and glued together.






Here is the Transit.  It's box frame is a "U" with a flat stock top tack-welded and glued much in the same manner as the Sprinter.




« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 07:32:21 pm by ron.dittmer »
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Doneworking

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2016, 07:23:47 pm »
Great pictures, Ron.  Thanks for posting them.  That convinces me I am on target in my thinking posted above:  great opportunity to make a true, small Class B campervan.  When you look at those pictures and I think of what's under my PC, I really appreciate the "iron". 

Paul

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2016, 07:55:02 pm »
Paul,

I don't knock the Sprinter or the Transit framing, but I do have one concern with them.  They need to be perfectly protected with regards to corrosion.  Winter road salt and sea air salt will get inside the box and linger.  If any tiny bit of metal is unprotected, corrosion will begin which then reduces strength.  Those box-welded frames are similar in concept to a uni-body frame of a car, but it carries 11,000 pounds.  If enough corrosion occurs, the frame may deform, then buckle or worse.   The strength of the box frame is more about the shape, instead of both shape and thickness of steel as is with the E-Series.

I am always thinking too hard over the "What If" scenario.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 11:42:18 pm by ron.dittmer »
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ragoodsp

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 11:11:31 am »
Pflasch and others:

Regardless of what Ford might do to "beef" up the Transit chassis I do not ever see that chassis being able to tow what the E-450 can,  or handle the GCGW the E-450 does with ease.  With that said I would love to see PC expand their line up and start using the F-550 chassis or the Ram 5500.  Thor has a new Super C line coming out that is going to be more high end compared to their current Super C's based on the F chassis'.  Dynamax, Born Free, and I am sure others are going to be utilizing more of the F's in anticipation of the slow phase out of the E chassis by Ford.  While PC is most definitely a niche company making some super coaches I worry a lot that such company's will not be able to survive against the giants like Forrest River (look what happen to Dynamax).  Kermit is in a very tough spot for sure as it  must take huge dollars to engineer for utilization of a new chassis.  Personally I would jump for a 33'-35' PC on either a Ram 5500 or Ford F-550 chassis.   Time will tell.  Thanks Ron G.
Ron Goodspeed

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Joseph

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 10:20:58 pm »
RAGOOD... I've seen several class c's with the new F series and they look great. Also it would allow the availability for the new ford turbo diesel  that has 440 hp and over 800 lb ft of torque.  I'm not one that would normally consider buying new but with that combo it would be hard to resist.

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ragoodsp

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2016, 08:42:36 am »
Joseph.....I do think either the Ford F or Ram 5500 would make for a great ride...larger cab, much quitter cab compared to a V-10 sitting in your lap, longer wheelbase, much higher GCVW, more of the new technology.   The only draw back I have heard of is the Ram has and integral console set up that would prevent you from being able to get back into the coach, I bet you can delete the console somehow?  The E-450 is just getting old and I do not see Ford putting any energy or money into upgrades when the F series is ready to fill the gap...
Ron Goodspeed

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donc13

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2016, 06:23:21 pm »
Paul,

I don't knock the Sprinter or the Transit framing, but I do have one concern with them.  They need to be perfectly protected with regards to corrosion.  Winter road salt and sea air salt will get inside the box and linger.  If any tiny bit of metal is unprotected, corrosion will begin which then reduces strength.  Those box-welded frames are similar in concept to a uni-body frame of a car, but it carries 11,000 pounds.  If enough corrosion occurs, the frame may deform, then buckle or worse.   The strength of the box frame is more about the shape, instead of both shape and thickness of steel as is with the E-Series.

I am always thinking too hard over the "What If" scenario.

Ron
I spent 13 of my 26 years as a police officer investigating fatal and serious injury accidents from bicycles to locomotive involved collisions.   I was a certified accident reconstruction expert.   I can state with certainty that in the thousands of collisions I investigated and looked for mechanical/structural issurs....not even one of those accidents was caused by a corroded frame.   Not one.

So quit worrying....today's frames are the last thing that will corrode and break.

---
Don and Patti

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2016, 11:44:47 am »
I Got it donc13!

My paranoia is fueled by an experience I had with a 12 year old Ford Ranger bought with 42,000 miles.  It had a "C" frame like the E-series, but much thinner.  It suffered badly with barnacle rust.  I hit the frame with a hammer and the rust showered down.  I noticed the frame rust when I bought the truck, but did not realize the severity of it.  The frame was so weakened that the gap between the bed and the cab started to close up even though I never carried anything heavy in the bed.

With that Ford Ranger experience, it had me envisioning the weight of a motor home on a chassis with the same kind of frame rust.  It may not cause a crash, but would place severe stresses on the house which would initially show up as seams breaching and water getting inside.  I wonder if that is one of the causes why old motor homes start leaking so badly.....the house loosing it's strong foundation.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 12:05:54 pm by ron.dittmer »
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Pax

Re: PC on new Ford Transit 350 chassis?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2016, 07:25:09 pm »
I've been following the trend and the only thing I could find regarding Ford's last official word on the Transit and what they have to say regarding motorhomes is this....

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2015/11/10/new-ford-transit-based-motorhomes-ready-to-carry-families.html

   - Mike