Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: jhobbs on March 07, 2022, 08:56:49 pm
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I apologize if this subject has already been covered. If so, can you point me to that thread? I have read several threads and am confused.
I have a 2020 2351. My house batteries are bad already after just over a year. They were really low on water. I do keep it plugged in a lot for various reasons because I use it every 2-4 weeks. What can I do to keep from replacing batteries every year? Would switching to AGM be enough?
Thanks,
Jeff
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Hi Jeff,
With good maintenance practices, we got only two good years from our new PC's first pair of 12V batteries, and one marginal year. We had the same durational experience with the replacement pair bought at Walmart. Our third pair, we switched to two-6V AGM batteries bought at Sam's Club for $180/each. That was in 2015. They are still in great working condition today. Based on this personal experience, I endorse two 6V AGM batteries.
Ron
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Jeff,
What can I do to keep from replacing batteries every year? Would switching to AGM be enough?
Jeff,
It's always dangerous to give a short absolute answer to a question like this but the bottom line is: "It should be".
Since you have a 2020 model unit, you should already have a decent 3-stage converter/charger (probably Progressive Dynamics), a much better unit than the earlier single-stage Parallex units used until 2018 or so. Open flooded cell batteries are very vulnerable to over-charging from a single-stage unit which does not properly taper the charge--causing them to boil dry quickly.
HOWEVER, even with a decent 3-stage charger, an open flooded cell battery is still going to demand reasonable maintenance, and periodic addition of water to the cells. There are other usage factors which influence battery longevity, but failing to maintain adequate electrolyte level is always a killer. The AGM units eliminate that critical vulnerability. If you make the switch, check your converter/charger manual to see if you need to adjust the settings for AGMs.
Ron reports on his experience moving to AGMs. In my case, I spec'd the upgrade to AGMs in my 2019 when I ordered it largely for that reason. I have solar, which eliminates the need to plug in to maintain charge. Quite honestly, in the three years I've owned my coach I've never even needed to open my battery compartment door, and my batteries always stay ready to go.
Mike
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Does anyone know where the converter is on my 2351 PC? I looked under the bed, and I see the inverter, but I don't see anything else in there. Thanks for the responses.
Jeff
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The converter/charger should be right behind the power distribution center (fuse and breaker box).
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Here are pics under my bed. I see the inverter and subwoofer, or at least I think that is a subwoofer. I don't see anything else.
Also, any recommendations on AGM brands?
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If you make the switch, check your converter/charger manual to see if you need to adjust the settings for AGMs.
I surely agree.
Our 2007 PC-2350 has the original 2000 watt Tripp-Lite converter/inverter combination unit. It has a setting specifically for AGM batteries. You will surely want to change that setting as outlined in the Tripp-Lite owners manual. I imagine every converter Phoenix has installed since 2007, can handle AGM technology.
I had considered lithium batteries, but ruled them out because of their extremely high cost in 2015 to purchase and also that our inverter could not handle that technology. Going with AGM was an affordable upgrade for what has become a lot cheaper than the wet acid batteries because of their outstanding longevity and performance compared to what we had prior. I also really like that I never have to physically inspect the batteries for water levels and corrosion. The connections stay clean and reliable.
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Jeff,
As Don says, the converter/charger is typically built into the power distribution center (it's the lower section below where your 12-volt fuses and 120-volt breakers are located). In the photos you posted, it would be the unit where all those white and yellow wires tie in.
Regarding AGM battery brands--there are quite a few out there, and pricing varies. You probably know that for your house batteries, you're looking for deep cycle units--not cranking batteries. You'll see a lot of references to RVs using the Lifeline units. The AGM batteries that Phoenix installed as options in 2019 are Trojans (T105-AGM). They're a quality battery, and I can recommend them based on my experience with them.
Mike
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I found that I have the progressive dynamics 4500 and I found the product manual. It does not reference any switch for AGM batteries. Thanks for the explanations and help.
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Jeff, that unit is essentially the same unit that I have (I have the PD-4560 converter charger). It is suitable for either flooded cell or AGM lead-acid batteries as is--and the newest models with the "A" suffix even have a switch for a lithium battery charge profile (if yours happens to have that LA/LI switch, be sure that it is set in the LA--Lead Acid--position for AGMs). That unit will give you a 14.4 boost charge, which is very close to the 14.5 that Trojan specifies as preferred. It won't reach the ideal finish charge of 14.7 (which I can attain through my solar controller from my solar system), but it will be fine with any AGM unit you use.
Mike
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I will mention one other thing that has a major impact on battery life that you are probably already aware but is worth reiterating. When the coach is not being used for a day or longer and is not connected to shore power or solar charging the PC electrical system still discharges the battery. If this continues over time it can do permanent damage to the batteries. To prevent this the battery disconnect rotary switch should be turned off to stop the power drain. Batteries also self discharge even when disconnected but the rate is typically much slower.
If the liquid level in the batteries are being quickly depleted suggest the trickle/float charge voltage is too high which causes the liquid electrolyte to be boiled off. I would suggest checking the battery voltage with the disconnect switch turned on and the coach connected to shore power. Ideally you should see 13.2 to 13.4 volts when being trickle charged. If it is higher or much lower than that the charger/converter may be the problem. I would suggest reporting what voltage you measure on this forum and there is a lot of expertise here that can assist you address your problem.
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Good reminder fandj!
I always disconnect my chassis battery for that very reason.
When I had two-12V wet acid house batteries, I used to disconnect them for the same reason. But since changing to two-6V-AGMs, I leave the house connected and recharge them with an external charger on the 4 amp setting, every-other month. They don't drain much at all.....maybe I could go 4 months at a time but don't risk it.
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WELL, while reading this post and starting the de-winterization process, I checked my House batteries just to make sure they had enough fluid. I have no issues with them and they hold a charge well. However, I ended up putting up to a cup of distilled water in each of the 3 holes of the 2 batteries. That was a bit disturbing. All good now.
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I seem to get about five years from deep cycle batteries I buy at Sams Club. I check my fluid levels monthly, winter and summer, whether in storage or during the travel season. I also use one of these simple little cut off switches and I have used this same model on the last three or four rvs I owned and never had a problem with them.
We often boondock for a couple of weeks at a time in the summer and with my solar (two hundred watts on the roof and one hundred portable) I can keep the batteries well charged and maintained.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/LotFancy-Side-Post-Car-Battery-Disconnect-Switch-for-Car-Auto/385343216
Disconnect switch, watching the voltage levels and keeping the fluid level where it should be serves me well. I am sure that AGM batteries would be a bit better, but I am long in the tooth and cheap :help
Paul
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I apologize if this subject has already been covered. If so, can you point me to that thread? I have read several threads and am confused.
I have a 2020 2351. My house batteries are bad already after just over a year. They were really low on water. I do keep it plugged in a lot for various reasons because I use it every 2-4 weeks. What can I do to keep from replacing batteries every year? Would switching to AGM be enough?
Thanks,
Jeff
Jeff,
Back to your original question I think the original Interstate 6 volt lead acid batteries supplied by Phoenix should last 6 plus years with proper use and maintenance. I say that having got 5 years prior to giving them to my daughter for use in her camper. They were still performing well after using them probably on the average 120-150 days per year camping for those 5 years. I replaced them with Lithium to achieve the enhanced benefits associated with Lithium rather than a battery failure of the Phoenix supplied batteries.
Fred
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Thank you for all the tips and good information.
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I seem to get about five years from deep cycle batteries I buy at Sams Club. I check my fluid levels monthly, winter and summer, whether in storage or during the travel season. I also use one of these simple little cut off switches and I have used this same model on the last three or four rvs I owned and never had a problem with them.
We often boondock for a couple of weeks at a time in the summer and with my solar (two hundred watts on the roof and one hundred portable) I can keep the batteries well charged and maintained.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/LotFancy-Side-Post-Car-Battery-Disconnect-Switch-for-Car-Auto/385343216
Disconnect switch, watching the voltage levels and keeping the fluid level where it should be serves me well. I am sure that AGM batteries would be a bit better, but I am long in the tooth and cheap :help
Paul
Hi Paul,
For our chassis battery, I was about to purchase a battery disconnect switch that resembles the one you posted. But then I was reading how they can come loose at the worst opportune time, so I decided to leave well enough alone. I suppose if I were disconnecting frequently during trips like you, I'd consider one again. If that knob was a handle instead, it would offer more leverage to tighten-down better.....less likely to come loose.
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After reading this post I started looking at the cost of switching to AGM this is what from Bateries & Bulbs store near me.
Frank, there are slim pickings out there right now for sealed lead acid, BCI Group GC2, 6V, deep cycle. Depending on your time expectations, I see three possibilities:
East Penn, 8AGC2, 190AH, $305 each, available within a week
Trojan, 6V-AGM, 200AH, $475 each, available mid-April
Lifeline, GPL-4CT, 220AH, $395 each, plus shipping from CA, available end of June
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After reading this post I started looking at the cost of switching to AGM this is what from Bateries & Bulbs store near me.
Frank, there are slim pickings out there right now for sealed lead acid, BCI Group GC2, 6V, deep cycle. Depending on your time expectations, I see three possibilities:
East Penn, 8AGC2, 190AH, $305 each, available within a week
Trojan, 6V-AGM, 200AH, $475 each, available mid-April
Lifeline, GPL-4CT, 220AH, $395 each, plus shipping from CA, available end of June
At these prices you may want to consider Lithium. Lithium has almost twice as much useable energy storage capacity as Lead batteries. It is recommended that for a reasonable life lead not be discharged below 50% state of charge and recharged to 100% promptly whereas some Lithium say you can go down to 15% SOC and does not have the same recharging requirement. Other Lithium manufacturers say all the rated capacity is useable. Thus two 200 ah 6 volt lead batteries have about the same useable storage as one 12 volt 100 ah Lithium.
There is a significant weight savings as well. Two 6 volt lead batteries weigh 120-150 lbs where one Lithium weighs 25-35 lbs.
Lithium typically recharge at least twice as fast. Also the self discharge rate of Lithium is significantly less when in storage.
The expected life as measured by the number of useable discharge/recharge cycles typically claimed by Lithium manaufactures to be two or more times what can be expected from Lead batteries. I have seen Lithium warranties as long as 10 years.
For some PC cruisers a converter change may be required to supply the proper charge voltage to Lithiums. Some of the earlier supplied converters were inadequate for Lithium and Lead as well relulting in shortened battery life. I see prices for a new converter suitable for Lithium priced in $200-$250 price range. Many of them claim ease of install. I have no personal experience with changeout as I had a Progessive Dynamics converter installed by Phoenix when I bought my PC new which worked well for Lead and is approved by a Lithium battery manufacturer for use.
I have no financial interest in Lithium batteries or converters but I offer the above which might be helpful for anyone evaluating their options when needing to replace their coach batteries. Many RV manufacturers are now offering Lithium as an option with some making them standard thus I believe they are no longer thought of as experimental as they were just a few years ago. Lithium prices also has been trending down.
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Hi Jeff,
With good maintenance practices, we got only two good years from our new PC's first pair of 12V batteries, and one marginal year. We had the same durational experience with the replacement pair bought at Walmart. Our third pair, we switched to two-6V AGM batteries bought at Sam's Club for $180/each. That was in 2015. They are still in great working condition today. Based on this personal experience, I endorse two 6V AGM batteries.
Ron
I agree that (2) 6V AGM batteries are best . The only issue for me was to make sure the physical size fit in the battery tray.
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Ron wrote:
I suppose if I were disconnecting frequently during trips like you, I'd consider one again. If that knob was a handle instead, it would offer more leverage to tighten-down better.....less likely to come loose.
I poorly worded my post's last line. To clarify, I never disconnect our batteries when on a trip. I was referring to the "off months" when the RV is in storage......like now. I am happy to report that in using this type of disconnect for over 25 years I have never had one come loose. I just tighten it up by hand really firmly. Others may well have had dissimilar experiences with this type of switch.
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This is a really useful thread. I am also having problems with my batteries. I have a new PC as of last October. So I would like to know more what is considered the best practices to maintain batteries when not connected to shore power and in covered storage (so solar does not help). I have been turning off house power, and running generator about 20-30 minutes once a month, which seemed to work for my previous RV. At first this seemed to keep batteries ok, generally 3-4 red lights on the battery display. But then after a few months it would get down to 2 lights within a month and the converter starting giving me the warning of low voltage. When I measured with a volt meter it was just below 12v so I worried that batteries were getting damaged. So I am thinking either batteries are defective or I am not doing my recharging enough, or there is something causing batteries to drain even though I have house battery power turned off I do have 2 6v AGM batteries, which is what most people seem to recommend. So I really don't want to replace these expensive batteries if if can avoid it, and certainly want to know what are the "Best practices" to maintain batteries in storage. I am thinking using a smart charger instead of just relying on built in inverter/charger may be required, as some others have recommended. Another side question is that some people have recommended using a battery meter plugged in to a cigarette plug to monitor voltage. But wouldn't this do the same as just checking the battery voltage on the inverter (xantrex freedom) display? I would like to do some boon docking this summer and so want to make sure batteries are up to the task.