Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tarnold on May 01, 2020, 02:26:20 pm
-
2nd try at this post, so sorry if it pops up again. Following the trik l start thread, do I read that the crank battery is charged ONLY from the alternator, even if plugged in to AC if no trik l start is present?
Now looking at trikLStart and see prices from $30 at one place to 75 on amazon. Also see different revisions, so would a higher revision letter be more current?
-
Hi Terry,
In the standard PC wiring arrangement, there is no provision for the chassis (cranking) battery to normally receive charge current from any source but the engine alternator. The house battery bank is charged from various sources--when the rig is plugged in to AC, or if the Onan generator is running, it receives charge from the converter; if the unit is equipped with solar, it receives charge from the solar controller; and when the truck engine is running, it receives charge from the engine alternator through that relay that we were discussing in the Trik-L-Start thread you referenced. But the cranking battery does not receive any of this charge.
I emphasized the word "normally", because the one exception is with use of that "white switch" on the dash that was also being discussed in the other thread. If the white switch is depressed, it activates that relay that is normally used to send alternator charge current to the house battery bank. But with the engine not running, if the house battery bank is at a higher voltage level than the chassis battery, when the relay activates the current can flow in reverse from the house batteries to the chassis battery. That can happen if the chassis battery is somewhat dead (the original purpose of the white switch), or if the house batteries are being charged by another source--plugged in to AC, generator running, or solar charging.
Basically, all the Trik-L-Start does is bypass that relay to connect the house batteries and chassis cranking battery all the time with a one-way circuit from the house batteries to the crank battery--and let that charge current flow any time the house batteries are at a higher voltage. As pointed out by others, even with the Trik-L-Start if the house battery bank isn't being charged from some source, or at a higher voltage potential, there will be no current flow to the chassis crank battery.
To complete the picture there is one last point. The recommendation made by Keelhauler (and others) to replace the original "momentary-type" white dash switch with a permanent on/off switch can potentially provide the same effect as using the Trik-L-Start. The momentary switch only activates the big charging relay to allow charge current from the house batteries to the crank battery while the switch is held in--so it will not work for long-term charging. By replacing that momentary switch with a switch that can be left on permanently, the charge relay is held in full time and effectively can charge the chassis crank battery full time like a Trik-L-Start. I personally don't know what practical negatives can come from this, but Keelhauler has stated that (with solar charging his house batteries), he uses this method in long-term storage to keep his chassis battery charged.
To address your other point, I have seen the different revision letters on the Trik-L-Start. I would assume the higher revision letter would be a later model.
Mike
-
Mike, That was a really good explanation and I agree with it all.
Myself and others have changed that white switch to an on-off switch and leave on when ever I want my chassis battery charged.
It takes 5 minutes to change to an on-off switch and the electrical terminals slide off of the old switch and on to new switch. So disconnect the existing switch, take to autozone, get a new on-off switch that is same size, less than $10.
However to be clear, you either have to be plugged into 110V or have solar panels for any charging of the vehicle battery to happen. I monitor both sets of batteries and never let any go below 50% (12.1 V). My batteries last for 7 years or more.
-
Good, now get to do more shopping. Already bought a new crank battery today. Pulled PC over to house. Before plugging in to 30 amp checked voltage on crank battery 12.3v. Plugged in and let thing settle. Checked voltage again and down to 11.93, later down to 11.90 !! Off to Walmart. Last week wouldn’t turn over even with white switch. Charged for a few hours at 15amp and started right up. Mine is a 2013 chassis and had a motor craft battery, might have been original.
-
Tarnold - Now just change that white switch to an on-ff and you won't have to worry about ruining your new battery. There is always a power draw on chassis battery and even when I'm camping about once a week I need to flip the switch on for a few hours.
-
I just read this great thread. We are new PC owners (had a diesel pusher before). Our DP had a battery-connect which actually did charge the chassis battery when plugged in to shore power so I was caught off-guard until I read this threaf. The new battery I put in June 1 is already too depleted to start the rig. I have started it a couple times but have not been on the road yet due to Covid. I tried the "little white button" - it lights up the dash lights brightly but not enough juice to start engine. Is that normal?
I plan to ask my neighbor to put in the on/off switch recommended here instead of buying a separate trickle charger which would likely not survive our weather. He typically gets less shocks than I do. We are 50 miles from most shopping but I assume a simple toggle switch should work. I have one on our 2012 Honda CRV to disconnect the battery fuse when towing - way simpler than trying to pull a super-small micro fuse.
Hank Whitney
Custer SD
2019 PC/3100
-
KEELHAULER - Any "cosmetic" issues when replacing the white switch as in..did you find a toggle that fit or just have to drill a couple more holes? I have limited purchase options where we live out in the country (especially with hundreds of thousands of bikers between us and real retail). But I need to do this, Thanks.
Hank Whitney
2019 Model 3100
-
KEELHAULER,
Disregard my last question. I called Sigma switches in Elkhart and the item is available on E-Bay for $5.99 plus $3.50 shipping. Cheaper and way more efficient than a separate trickle charger. Thanks!
Hank Whitney
-
Regarding the momentary switch located by the driver's left knee, I believe it can be disassembled to remove the spring that forces the switch open when you let go. The only concern of having it constant-on is that when dry camping, if accidentally left on, you drain the house and chassis batteries together, potentially being stranded. But if you are plugged into 110V power at campsites all the time, then it would be a nice feature. It might be wise to have an LED indicator located in the house in plain sight to light-up when the switch is left on for chassis battery maintenance. A really cool feature would be something automatically switching it on (a relay) when plugged into 110V.
-
A standard on-off switch pops right into the opening. Best route to take. If you forget to turn the switch off you will find when you close the side door your steps will go in, even if you have the door switch on. I have solar arrays, so when I am in storage with no 120v power, all my batteries stay charged, I even leave the Fantastic Fan on, controlled by the thermostat switch to keep the unit a little cooler inside.
-
We are always plugged into shore power at home - we have FHU right next to the house including 20/30/50 power and a sewer clean out for macerator dumping. But the tip on dry camping is good although we do lots more of hook-up style camping. Turns out our PC is 50 Amp with 2 A/C's although I cannot envision needing both. The on-off switch should be here next week. I called the company in Elkhart but they sell through EBay.
Hank
-
The Trik-l-Start is $55 shipped. Quick install in the engine compartment and works. No worries about swapping out the dash switch, or forgetting to turn the switch off or pulling the spring out of the original switch.
It's worth it.
-
What Don said. 2o2
-
Previous posts were very helpful. Just realized our new-to-us 2019/3100 had been sitting back at home (plugged in to shore power) for 2 months since our 1st extended trip. I had replaced the spring-loaded white trickle switch with an off/off version. But I forgot to turn it on a while back for winter storage (at home). Of course the chassis battery is now dead. So I just turned on the trickle switch and will see if it eventually works, The battery is only 5 months old so hoping it will bounce back.
Hank
At Home in Custer SD
-
Hank, any chance you have the ebay link or the model number for that switch? I'm thinking I should go ahead and swap mine out as well.
-
I cannot seem to find the order right now. Rather than wait for me I would call Sigma in Elkhart (number is 574-294-5776) and ask directly. I checked on EBay and cannot find the white one, just a black one that looks the same. I will look some more tomorrow.
Hank
-
Hank, any chance you have the ebay link or the model number for that switch? I'm thinking I should go ahead and swap mine out as well.
If the switch is like most others, you should be able to open it up and remove the spring that makes it a momentary switch.
-
Here is the link to the Sigma switch on EBay:
https://www.ebay.com/myb/PurchaseHistory#PurchaseHistoryOrdersContainer?ipp=25&Period=2&cmid=2749&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l5116
I turned my trickle on yesterday. Anybody care to guess how long it will take for my chassis battery to "come back"? Or is the trickle function not strong enough for a completely discharged battery and I need to jump start it first? If the latter I have to clear a couple feet of snow away first...
Hank
-
Here is the link to the Sigma switch on EBay:
https://www.ebay.com/myb/PurchaseHistory#PurchaseHistoryOrdersContainer?ipp=25&Period=2&cmid=2749&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l5116
I turned my trickle on yesterday. Anybody care to guess how long it will take for my chassis battery to "come back"? Or is the trickle function not strong enough for a completely discharged battery and I need to jump start it first? If the latter I have to clear a couple feet of snow away first...
Hank
The TricLCharge, depending on the model, is a 5 or 10 amp charger.
The system installed by PC connected to that switch on the dash is (was) 5amp (and protected by a fuse) so if the fuse is blown, you will get no charge. If the fuse is not blown, do NOT try to start the engine while your new switch is in the on position! That will for sure blow that fuse
At a 5amp charge rate, it will take a good 24 to 48 hours to bring your chassis battery back.... Considering the "stuff" causing the parasitic charge will still be drawing power while charging.
For what it's worth, I have a knife switch on the chassis battery negative terminal and when I store it, that switch is opened. My 5 year old, factory chassis battery still cranks and starts just fine after 4 months in our Colorado winters (obviously, close the knife switch before starting).
I did add a Trik-l-Start simply because when I visit my son in Canada, I am often parked (with shore power) in his driveway for weeks and did, 1 time, drain the chassis battery from parasitic draws.
-
Here is the link to the Sigma switch on EBay:
Thank you sir!
-
Don,
Thanks for the info. I just charged the battery for 1 hr at 10 Amps and it then fired right up. I now have the trickle turned on. A blown fuse might be the reason I got no trickle charging after 2 days. I need to find that fuse..is it under the dash? I will check under the hood too.
My next door neighbor (another RV-er) also mentioned a knife-blade battery cutoff switch so we will likely put one on..if there is room (his comment).
Hank
-
My memory tells me the fuse is one of two places. Under the carpet, driver's side, next to the parking brake.... Or.... Under the hood, driver's side, near the isolator relay. You may have to lift the radiator overflow tank... 3 easy to get to screws on the overflow tank bracket.
Either location, the fuse is in a single rubber fuse holder (memory says yellowish with 2 blue wires into it).
Don
-
I called the factory yesterday for some info on trickle charging, the little white dash switch and related fuse on our 2019 3100. Dave from service told me I already have an installed TRIK-L-START box. He said they started putting them on all units a couple years ago or so after a customer told them about it. I had no idea because we bought this unit used at the factory at the height of the pandemic onset last March and got a very limited PDI. He told me the TRIK-L-START is on the firewall near the washer fluid reservoir. But I looked for it yesterday (including with a flashlight) and could not see it.
So a question before I start removing stuff under the hood to search - if you have a factory-installed TRIK-L-START where exactly is it located? Or supposed to be located? I need to make sure it is actually turned on since my battery went dead once already. This seems like a great unit (we had this same feature on my previous Class A diesel pusher) but only if it is working. We are plugged into shore power at home.
Thanks,
Hank
-
Mine came with the TRIK-L-START. It is behind the washer fluid reservoir.
-
I need to find that fuse..is it under the dash?
On my 2017 it is under the hood behind the radiator overflow tank. I installed my own TRIK-L-START and it was easiest to put it under the overflow tank because all of the wiring needed was already there for the white cross-connect switch.
-
JAHOBBS and JATRAX - Tks for info on trickle fuse and TRIK-L-START. There is no TRIK-L-START on my 2019; at least not where it is on JAHOBB's 2020 or anywhere I can see under the hood. Sounds like I might have missed the cutoff date for factory install although Dave seemed sure it was there. I might call them back.
I did find a red fuse holder attached to 2 red wires which I am guessing is the white-button trickle start. One red wire comes from the dash area. Unfortunately, my battery went dead again in just a week or so am very confused. Sounds like my trickle fuse is blown and/or I simply did not have it in the On position. Tomorrow (when it is not so cold, snowy etc.) I will get some fuses, play with that fuse holder and recharge the battery again. I just have to be sure when trickle switch is on; the new Sigma switch I got does not have symbols so, although I put the new switch in correctly and believe the top is "On", I might have to pull it out and check it. Also want to get a TRIK-L-START and then install it without blowing too many fuses.
Thanks again,
Hank
-
JAHOBBS and JATRAX - Tks for info on trickle fuse and TRIK-L-START. There is no TRIK-L-START on my 2019; at least not where it is on JAHOBB's 2020 or anywhere I can see under the hood. Sounds like I might have missed the cutoff date for factory install although Dave seemed sure it was there. I might call them back.
I did find a red fuse holder attached to 2 red wires which I am guessing is the white-button trickle start. One red wire comes from the dash area. Unfortunately, my battery went dead again in just a week or so am very confused. Sounds like my trickle fuse is blown and/or I simply did not have it in the On position. Tomorrow (when it is not so cold, snowy etc.) I will get some fuses, play with that fuse holder and recharge the battery again. I just have to be sure when trickle switch is on; the new Sigma switch I got does not have symbols so, although I put the new switch in correctly and believe the top is "On", I might have to pull it out and check it. Also want to get a TRIK-L-START and then install it without blowing too many fuses.
Thanks again,
Hank
Disconnect your chassis battery negative cable, problem gone until you can find out what's really going on.
-
Disconnect your chassis battery negative cable, problem gone until you can find out what's really going on.
It is my standard practice to disconnect the negative cable for the chassis battery when parked for extended periods, most especially when at home. An 8mm box wrench and a few turns and it's off or tightly on. I keep an 8mm box wrench in the center console bin. I considered installing a blade or dial disconnect, but don't want to have reliability issues at the worst opportune time.
-
The disadvantage of both these options is that you have to leave the crank battery connected to get the advantage of charging the crank battery when you plug in the house.
The first year I had my (used) RV, it never occurred to me to disconnect the chassis battery when in storage. The parasitic draw from the radio or something drained the battery and ruined it, which I discovered the next time I wanted to use the RV. I didn't make the connection at the time -- I just thought the battery was probably due. So, after replacing that battery, my PC gave me a clearer lesson -- the computer or switch or whatever controls the courtesy lights under the doors chose the moment I put it back into storage to fail "on", which destroyed my new battery. I discovered this a week later, when I tried to take the RV to get it inspected.
At that point, it finally dawned on me that leaving the battery connected in a vehicle that isn't driven for months at a time might be a bad idea. So after another $150 for another new battery, I invested $10 in a battery cutoff switch, and another $40 for a trickle charger. I now check on my RV more often and I rotate the trickle charger between the RV and the Smart Car toad, which also has a battery cutoff switch. And, to make sure the courtesy lights can't get stuck on again and leave me stranded in Timbuktu some day, I unscrewed the courtesy light bulbs, for good measure.
By the way, the other thing I learned in that first year was that it's a very bad idea to leave the house plugged in all the time while in storage. That dumb Parallax converter the PC came with cooked $300 worth of house batteries. After replacing the house batteries with AGM's, I replaced the Parallax with a smart converter (Progressive Dynamics PD9245CV Inteli-Power 9200). But I still don't leave it plugged in all the time.
-
By the way, the other thing I learned in that first year was that it's a very bad idea to leave the house plugged in all the time while in storage. That dumb Parallax converter the PC came with cooked $300 worth of house batteries. After replacing the house batteries with AGM's, I replaced the Parallax with a smart converter (Progressive Dynamics PD9245CV Inteli-Power 9200). But I still don't leave it plugged in all the time.
You can leave the house batteries plugged in if AGM and using a smart charger. (I have done it for years) If you have standard lead-acid batteries you would need to keep an eye on the water level.
I was really surprised that the Parallax was still the standard charger being used by Phoenix when I ordered my 2017. As you mention, it can easily burn up your batteries. A smart Progressive Dynamics is not much more. I had them switch to the PD charger for my build.
-
Blue blaze, what’s your procedure for the trickle charger on the smartcar? My MB branded start battery is dead and will not hold a charge. It was a whole new language involved trying to get that battery out of the hole it rides in. No built in handle on my battery. Had to take a/c cover off to tilt enough to get out. Do you just keep the battery compartment exposed till you want to drive off. (For those that don’t know, the smart battery is buried under the passenger side foot well, remove floor mat, peel back carpet, remove foam board that holds your tire pump to get to the battery. A smart doesn’t have a spare tire, so they give you a can of fix a flat and a 12volt air pump that is molded in the foam board).
-
What size fuse goes on the factory trickle charger? When I pull the coolant reserve tank to get at the fuse holder in our rather cold weather I want to have lots of fuses 'cause I expect to blow at least a couple making the charger work. I agree an aftermarket Trick-l-Start is the best solution but not there yet. I did disconnect the negative battery cable the other day. Thanks
Hank
-
What size fuse goes on the factory trickle charger? When I pull the coolant reserve tank to get at the fuse holder in our rather cold weather I want to have lots of fuses 'cause I expect to blow at least a couple making the charger work. I agree an aftermarket Trick-l-Start is the best solution but not there yet. I did disconnect the negative battery cable the other day. Thanks
Hank
5 amp on my 2015 model
-
Just purchased a 2013 PC2350 on the diesel Sprinter chassis. After parking for a few weeks the cranking battery died. After charging a couple of times, it was completely dead. While replacing it I noticed a nifty battery cutoff connection that's easy to get to and I wonder if I should disconnect that to avoid any parasitic drain on the battery during"storage"?
-
Just purchased a 2013 PC2350 on the diesel Sprinter chassis. After parking for a few weeks the cranking battery died. After charging a couple of times, it was completely dead. While replacing it I noticed a nifty battery cutoff connection that's easy to get to and I wonder if I should disconnect that to avoid any parasitic drain on the battery during"storage"?
Welcome to the forum!
Sure does sound like the cutoff was installed for the problem you have. (exactly) Try it, see if it works!
-
Don,
Thanks for the 5 amp fuse answer for trickle charge.
Hopefully this is my last post for a while. The factory trickle fuse on our 2019 was blown. I just replaced it and get a good clicking noise when I try the white button. Negative terminal is still disconnected. I like the suggestion of simply keeping the negative terminal disconnectedwhile in storage at home. But, since I have full hookups here, would like to have option of trickling thru white button. The "new" Sigma on/off switch I installed does not have "On and Off" symbols. Anyone know which position is "On" (top?). And, if I put a good digital charger on the battery, will I know if the trickle is really on? Maybe just hope the charge slowly increases. The battery is currently charged.
If someone wants to call and just tell me where to go...my cel is 443-799-0045.
Thanks,
Hank
-
I tried to call you Hank, but your Google call filter hung up after I said who I was and why I called.
Anyway.... If you have a simple ohm meter, put it across the leads on the Sigma switch. If you get very low ohms... The switch is in the ON position, now switch the Sigma to the other position and you will get very high ohms... That'd be OFF. (or vice versa if switch started on OFF position.
Correct, with the starting battery negative cable disconnected you will get zero charge no matter what position the switch is in.
Don
-
Don,
My apologies on the phone call. I was having auto serviced when you called; I listened after the google screen but nothing came through. Maybr Google Screen is not as efficient as I thought.
Thanks for your response here. I will get out my meter when we get another semi-warm day (not too many of those here) and figure out the switch. Probably save some fuses that way....:). For now all good with negative terminal disconnected.
Hank
Enjoying an unusually balmy day in Custer SD (40 degrees).
-
About the same as here! Had a few things to do on the PC myself. Got the voice mail.
Don
-
Blue blaze, what’s your procedure for the trickle charger on the smartcar? My MB branded start battery is dead and will not hold a charge. It was a whole new language involved trying to get that battery out of the hole it rides in. No built in handle on my battery. Had to take a/c cover off to tilt enough to get out. Do you just keep the battery compartment exposed till you want to drive off. (For those that don’t know, the smart battery is buried under the passenger side foot well, remove floor mat, peel back carpet, remove foam board that holds your tire pump to get to the battery. A smart doesn’t have a spare tire, so they give you a can of fix a flat and a 12volt air pump that is molded in the foam board).
When I installed the battery cutoff for towing, I also installed an unswitched 12V plug that I use to supply power for my RVI brake. I use the unswitched plug for my trickle charger.
-
Ok, I’m running the ready brute tow bar(surge brake) so no extra battery connections there. Going battery shopping this afternoon so might just look at adding some heavy gauge wires and Anderson connectors and leave exposed up under the dash somewhere. Then attach trickle charger on those.
-
Ok, I’m running the ready brute tow bar(surge brake) so no extra battery connections there. Going battery shopping this afternoon so might just look at adding some heavy gauge wires and Anderson connectors and leave exposed up under the dash somewhere. Then attach trickle charger on those.
Well, that's the beauty of a trickle charger. You don't need heavy gauge wires. The 18 gauge wires that come with an after-market cigarette lighter receptacle are plenty for a 2 amp trickle charger, and you get another 12v outlet in the deal. Just be sure it also comes with an inline fuse. My trickle charger even came with a cigarette lighter plug.The biggest problem is figuring out a place to mount it the receptacle. I put it in the side of the center post, and wrapped the back with rubber from an old bicycle inner tube and electrical tape, to prevent it from shorting on the metal.
Wish I'd gone with a surge brake. Last time out, the plug on the RVi vibrated out, and the RVi's response to loss of power was to apply the brakes. Fortunately, my TPMS detected the overheated brakes, but I was in Houston traffic at the time and it was a couple of miles before I could find a place to pull over. The Smart's in the shop this week for new rotors and pads -- a $600 repair to a $3000 vehicle. I won't be using the RVi in the future.
-
Ok, I’m running the ready brute tow bar(surge brake) so no extra battery connections there. Going battery shopping this afternoon so might just look at adding some heavy gauge wires and Anderson connectors and leave exposed up under the dash somewhere. Then attach trickle charger on those.
Well, that's the beauty of a trickle charger. You don't need heavy gauge wires. The 18 gauge wires that come with an after-market cigarette lighter receptacle are plenty for a 2 amp trickle charger, and you get another 12v outlet in the deal. Just be sure it also comes with an inline fuse. My trickle charger even came with a cigarette lighter plug.The biggest problem is figuring out a place to mount it the receptacle. I put it in the side of the center post, and wrapped the back with rubber from an old bicycle inner tube and electrical tape, to prevent it from shorting on the metal.
Wish I'd gone with a surge brake. Last time out, the plug on the RVi vibrated out, and the RVi's response to loss of power was to apply the brakes. Fortunately, my TPMS detected the overheated brakes, but I was in Houston traffic at the time and it was a couple of miles before I could find a place to pull over. The Smart's in the shop this week for new rotors and pads -- a $600 repair to a $3000 vehicle. I won't be using the RVi in the future.
BlueBlaze
I have the RVi brake system and I love it, and the RVi 10 tire TPMS system. I think your RVi must have malfunctioned, because when you unplug the device it releases altogether, something you must do every time you run the toad's engine. It should not have applied braking. Have you contacted RVi? I've found them to have exceptional customer service.
-
Ok, I’m running the ready brute tow bar(surge brake) so no extra battery connections there. Going battery shopping this afternoon so might just look at adding some heavy gauge wires and Anderson connectors and leave exposed up under the dash somewhere. Then attach trickle charger on those.
Well, that's the beauty of a trickle charger. You don't need heavy gauge wires. The 18 gauge wires that come with an after-market cigarette lighter receptacle are plenty for a 2 amp trickle charger, and you get another 12v outlet in the deal. Just be sure it also comes with an inline fuse. My trickle charger even came with a cigarette lighter plug.The biggest problem is figuring out a place to mount it the receptacle. I put it in the side of the center post, and wrapped the back with rubber from an old bicycle inner tube and electrical tape, to prevent it from shorting on the metal.
Wish I'd gone with a surge brake. Last time out, the plug on the RVi vibrated out, and the RVi's response to loss of power was to apply the brakes. Fortunately, my TPMS detected the overheated brakes, but I was in Houston traffic at the time and it was a couple of miles before I could find a place to pull over. The Smart's in the shop this week for new rotors and pads -- a $600 repair to a $3000 vehicle. I won't be using the RVi in the future.
BlueBlaze
I have the RVi brake system and I love it, and the RVi 10 tire TPMS system. I think your RVi must have malfunctioned, because when you unplug the device it releases altogether, something you must do every time you run the toad's engine. It should not have applied braking. Have you contacted RVi? I've found them to have exceptional customer service.
Mine's a 2nd hand RVi2, and the Smart's so light it really doesn't need it, anyway. No reason to bother the factory with it. But the way, the repair bill came to over $750. Smart's are cheap to buy, but really expensive to fix. But, hey! On the bright side, new brakes were only $250 more than a spare ignition key! What a bargain, right?
-
To keep it going a bit of caution. Last time I hooked the toad up, I failed to fully extend and lock the tow bar arms. When hooking up the cable that activates the brakes, notice it had a lot of slack(don’t get ahead of me here). So tightened up cable and got slack out. My driveway is gravel and over 500 feet, all downhill. When I got down to the gate, got out to recheck everything. Looking back up the driveway there were 2 nice furrows where the locked brakes drug all the way down. At least now I know that the brake system works, when properly adjusted.