Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: mikea on March 08, 2020, 10:49:18 pm
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I'll beg your patience with two newbie questions, after I couldn't find information in the manuals:
1) The thermostat has the Furnace and Heat Strip modes. We did spend a night in the PC so I figured out that the furnace is forced air and may comes through the air conditioner?
I thought that I could choose both furnace and heat strip but apparently it's one or the other on the thermostat and apparently the heat strip sends heat out of the vents under the right bed?
Can somebody clarify that?
2) Mine has an unlabeled white rocker switch on the left side of the cab dash panel. What does that control?
(I'll post a picture if needed.)
TIA!
--Mike
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The furnace is the under bed heater, it runs from propane and is cycled off/on to maintain temp. It's fairly loud and has typically 3 heat registers used by it. One in the bathroom, one under the passenger side bed and the 3rd bottom of the sink pantry.
The white switch is a safety in case you run down the engine battery. If so, holding the switch closed, will use your house batterys to try to recharge the engine battery via the coach batterys.
Heat strip is part of the a/c unit. It comes out the a/c unit same place a/c air comes out. Of course it requires you be plugged in or on your generator, as it uses 120v electricity to provide the heat.
Don
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Wow...is that information really not in the Manual? What all else is not in the Manual?
This is 2020... there should be manuals online. These should cover everything PC knows about each model. There should also be a wiring diagram even if only generic.
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The furnace is the under bed heater, it runs from propane and is cycled off/on to maintain temp. It's fairly loud and has typically 3 heat registers used by it. One in the bathroom, one under the passenger side bed and the 3rd bottom of the sink pantry.
The white switch is a safety in case you run down the engine battery. If so, holding the switch closed, will use your house batterys to try to recharge the engine battery via the coach batterys.
Heat strip is part of the a/c unit. It comes out the a/c unit same place a/c air comes out. Of course it requires you be plugged in or on your generator, as it uses 120v electricity to provide the heat.
Don
Thanks, Don!
On my older MH it said that the optional heat in the A/C was intended strictly for getting rid of the morning chill. I'm pretty sure I settled on the furnace for the night.
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Wow...is that information really not in the Manual? What all else is not in the Manual?
This is 2020... there should be manuals online. These should cover everything PC knows about each model. There should also be a wiring diagram even if only generic.
There is no Phoenix Cruiser owners manual as far as I can see - only manuals for the appliances and systems.
I read the manual for the Dometic thermostat but didn't understand which system was controlled by the two heat choices.
Since there is a delay for thermostat turning each on or off I got confused on how it was responding to my settings.
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On my older MH it said that the optional heat in the A/C was intended strictly for getting rid of the morning chill. I'm pretty sure I settled on the furnace for the night.
The heat strip in the AC is a high power draw, probably pretty close in amp draw to the compressor that is used to cool the air.
If you are parked hooked up to shore power, I would use it and save the LP.
If you are on generator, I would use the furnace.
Found this on another thread, might be helpful:
My "Dometic" Briskaire Roof Ducted Air Conditioner 13500 btu draws
960 watts in cooling mode with low fan, or 8.7 amps.
Here are some other measurements from it.
222 watts fan on low no heat
250 watts fan on high no heat
1408 watts heat strip on with fan set to low
1422 watts heat strip on with fan set to high
Maybe a different model, but all have similar 'guts'. You see the heat strip pulls more than the A/C!
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The furnace is the under bed heater, it runs from propane and is cycled off/on to maintain temp. It's fairly loud and has typically 3 heat registers used by it. One in the bathroom, one under the passenger side bed and the 3rd bottom of the sink pantry.
The white switch is a safety in case you run down the engine battery. If so, holding the switch closed, will use your house batterys to try to recharge the engine battery via the coach batterys.
Heat strip is part of the a/c unit. It comes out the a/c unit same place a/c air comes out. Of course it requires you be plugged in or on your generator, as it uses 120v electricity to provide the heat.
Don
Thanks, Don!
On my older MH it said that the optional heat in the A/C was intended strictly for getting rid of the morning chill. I'm pretty sure I settled on the furnace for the night.
I have used the heat strip (without the furnace obviously) down to about 30 degrees. At times, I may also plug in a Polonis Disc Furnace (ceramic heater) in the front facing rearward to warm the kitchen area. Especially when we used to take out cat with us.
It's not toasty inside but certainly not "cold" or "icy" and just perfect in bed with the blanket.
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We also use heat strip and space heater when hooked up. Since we try not to camp in frigid zones (not always successfully), we seldom use the propane furnace. However, on really chilly mornings when we're boondocking - a quick blast from the furnace before we get out of bed is pure luxury!
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Since we're on the subject of comfort heat sources, when we bought our coach it had a propane quick disconnect fitting plumbed to under the fridge in the slideout. As there was also a small RV approved propane space heater in the under couch storage drawer, I deduced them to be made for each other. The beauty of this type of heater is there is no electricity needed, great for our usual boondocking.
Worried about CO in an enclosed space, I tested the unit overnight (unoccupied) and added 2 plugin CO detectors, one in the bath and one in the cab in addition to the installed coach detector. None of them activated in the 12 hours I left the heater on. But of course there were no people consuming oxygen either. It did stay nicely warm.
Now the questions:
1. If the cab dash vents are on the vent (outside air) position and left open when turning off the key, do they stay open thereby providing enough combustion air?
2. Has anyone had experience with this type of heater and (lived to tell about it?)
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Catalytic propane heaters DO need to be vented, not because of CO gas, but because they need oxygen to operate.
Yes, the dash air vents, if open, stay open with the engine and ignition off. You could also leave a window open (a bit) or a roof vent. But more than likely, just "normal" leakage in an RV should be fine. After all, RV's are nowhere airtight.
Camping World sells that model, their website has descriptions and customer reviews on it.
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After all, RV's are nowhere airtight.
Speak for yourself. roflol
In all seriousness, without a slide-out, our PC is quite air tight. If we used a space heater that consumes oxygen, I would surely open our bathroom roof vent which is as far from the dash board vents as can be. Heat rises which encourages the chimney effect, hence the bathroom roof vent for adequate air circulation. I would open it just a few inches. Opening it all the way is surely too much.
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After all, RV's are nowhere airtight.
Speak for yourself. roflol
In all seriousness, without a slide-out, our PC is quite air tight. If we used a space heater that consumes oxygen, I would surely open our bathroom roof vent which is as far from the dash board vents as can be. Heat rises which encourages the chimney effect, hence the bathroom roof vent for adequate air circulation. I would open it just a few inches. Opening it all the way is surely too much.
Well, in reality.. Yes, RV's with slides leak more than those without slides.
BUT (There's always a but...)
Just in the floor itself, there are gaps around where the Grey and black tank drains are. Where 120v wiring goes into and out of the walls. Where the 12v comes up thru the floor boards to feed the power distribution panel and charge the house batteries and so forth.
Lots more places.
Yes, PC and most RV manufacturers do spray foam around those openings. That doesn't make them airtight.
In fact, in my 2015 PC, the 12v cables come up into the interior via short pieces of conduit that extend about 4" under the floor to about 2" into (in our case) the under bed mechanical/electrical area. Those conduit are open on both ends, no spray foam or anything else.
Anyway.. Just say in.. RV's aren't airtight.
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Donc13, you echo my sentiments. I tried a blower door test for leak finding, using the coach door. Even with the grill under the windshield covered in plastic, you could open the front doors easily.
Airtight like a mobsters alibi. :lol
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Just a caution about the dash switch... do not use it to try to start the engine. Phoenix warns that the gauge of wire cannot carry the intense current. Fire hazard.
My experience with using the dash switch to pump some charge into the starting battery has been poor. I now carry a vary long jumper cable to start the engine directly from the coach batteries.
Our initial experience with a heat strip was that it is noisy and mucho cold air before the warm air starts. Have not used it since.
Instead we use a quiet electric heater almost exclusively.
The gas heater is very strong so we rarely have used it. I note that there were plastic bits in the ducts. On first use the gas and smoke produced forced to bail out for an hour or more until the plastic completely burned and the fumes dissipated.
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Just a caution about the dash switch... do not use it to try to start the engine. Phoenix warns that the gauge of wire cannot carry the intense current. Fire hazard.
:beg Surely they (PC) put a current limiting device in line with the wire that is appropriate for the wire used?
I dont have the dash switch in my old 2007, the coach batteries were set up to be charged whenever the engine is running, and there is a 20A self resetting breaker in line. If I wanted, it would be easy to put a momentary switch in the dash, and be able to turn the relay on manually when desired to link the batteries. I would still be protected by the 20A breaker either way.
Using this handy chart ( https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amps-wire-gauge-d_730.html ) Lets make some assumptions... the wire run is 15 feet, and they used 10 gauge. (My camper has 10Ga, and is probably a little over 15' long) That would show a max current carry of 20 Amps. All you need to do is put one of these in line:
(https://www.superdroidrobots.com/images/TE/TE-246-000.jpg)
(yes, it says 05A... but a 20A or 30A looks the same)
Less than $5 from eTrailer. https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Pollak/PK54530.html?feed=npn&gclid=Cj0KCQjwu6fzBRC6ARIsAJUwa2RAf96aVppGf-MICVyRwSdEVxVcLnIcn_Ebp36e-Ca1SHr8A1E3LkAaAtrlEALw_wcB
It seems odd to me that PC would warn of a KNOWN fire hazard, and rely on every operator passing that knowledge on, instead of putting in a $5 part. And thats for a 30A breaker, to be super safe you could put in a 20A. Now no matter what the operator does, or if the switch malfunctions in the closed position :-[... you are protected. And it resets after a short period, so no looking for fuses. Sure, if you trip it many times, it may blow out and not reset. Better to replace that breaker than a burnt wire (and its corollary damage!)
I hope I misunderstood, but if not, consider putting a breaker in line. I cannot fathom why PC would not have done so. (WH) In today's litigious society, it sure looks like a lawsuit if a camper caught on fire from that.
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There is no fire hazard, there is an in line fuse, 5 or 10 Amp I believe. It's a pain to use because you have to hold it down. That (having to hold it down) is a safety feature to prevent your coach battery from drawing down the engine battery.
Starting an engine can easily draw 400 amps or more which is why battery cables are typically 2/0 to 4/0 gauge.
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I hate to be argumentative but there is a lot of misunderstanding about this momentary switch.
The switch is meant to be like a jumper to bring your starting battery voltage back up, then you turn it off to actually start.
When your engine is running all batteries will charge from Alternator.
If you change the momentary switch to an on-off switch nothing bad will happen since as soon as you turn on your ignition it is out of the circuit.
You can leave it on if you want your engine battery to charge from your coach batteries, either if you have solar or are plugged into 120 V power.
See this sketch of wiring system especially on the right side of schematic.
(https://keelhauler.org/RV/2552ElectricalSystem.jpg)
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You can leave it on if you want your engine battery to charge from your coach batteries, either if you have solar or are plugged into 120 V power.
See this sketch of wiring system especially on the right side of schematic.
(https://keelhauler.org/RV/2552ElectricalSystem.jpg)
On the right side. Let me see if I am reading this right, sure looks safer already.
The momentary switch on the dash energizes the coil of the relay (shown as a resistor) and allows charge to flow from the coach batteries to the starting battery. This is breaker protected.
I see there is a diode that permits the flow of charge to go from the alternator to replenish the coach and engine start batteries. This is breaker protected.
I dont see any unprotected flow of current that can start a fire regardless of operator input. I knew that had to be so. 2o2
But, as drawn, what stops the coach batteries from drawing current all the time from the start battery? It appears to have an uninterrupted path from the + start terminal, through the diode, and on to the coach battery.
So in the event the coach batteries were being drained and not replenished (eg: boondocking with solar charge fail) , and the motor was not running, what stops the starting battery from draining along with them?
On my 2007, there is a relay that closes (makes the circuit) when the motor is running. When the IGN+ goes dead (engine turned off) it opens the relay (breaks the circuit), making a hard disconnect of the coach and start batteries.
As I see it, there is not a safeguard like that in the schematic above.
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When the engine is not running the start battery will not charge the coach batteries, the relay interrupts that flow of current. The alternator must be supplying the current for the coach batteries to receive the current.
I may have left that off.
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Thanks for that elec schematic, wish PC would provide it and a manual (not that hard to do...)
Dougn
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Our PC-2350 is electrically unmodified, is electrically the same as when we bought it new in 2007. I installed two volt meters, one each for the chassis battery and house batteries. When I turn on the E350-V10 engine, the meters read nearly the same 13.8V and stay that way until I turn off the engine. That is when driving with the generator off and obviously not plugged into 110V.
I never compared voltage readings under different scenarios. It would make for an interesting experiment.
1) engine on, generator on
2) engine on, plugged into 110v and inverter on
3) everything off, hold in the dash button
4) engine off, generator on (with and without holding in the dash button)
5) engine off, plugged into 110v and inverter on (with and without holding in the dash button)
As keelhauler might be implying, changing or modifying the intermittent dash switch to a constant-position switch, you might be able to maintain the chassis battery when maintaining the house batteries. Keelhauler, did I understand you correctly?
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I changed to an on/off switch and it does charge the chassis battery on solar or plugged in, or generator. I turn it off boondocking to assure not depleting the chassis battery if there is little sunshine and at night.
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I changed to an on/off switch and it does charge the chassis battery on solar or plugged in, or generator. I turn it off boondocking to assure not depleting the chassis battery if there is little sunshine and at night.
That is a very good point. What you hope maintains the chassis battery will also deplete it when the demand exceeds the charge-rate.