Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: ArtistView on December 06, 2019, 06:35:32 pm
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Hello everyone - first post here. We currently own a Winnebago View, but when we replace it, Phoenix Cruiser is on my short list - especially if they begin using the new Ford engine and dash update. One of the features that drew me to PC is the availability of Liquid Springs. We have the VB Air Suspension on our View and are spoiled. I read one post here about them - anyone else have any experience with them?
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Although I have only put about 1.5K miles on mine, I love the Liquid Spring ride.
Must also qualify by saying I have never driven a non-LS Phoenix Cruiser which I hear ride better than most all other Class C motor-homes.
The normal mode is great on highways and I switch to comfort mode on side streets. LS coupled with the Safe-T-Plus steering damper give a very comfortable driving experience.
Only a couple of small issues I have with LS:
The location and installation of the controller looks like an afterthought. Luckily PC left plenty of slack in the line so I was able to make a plastic bracket to mount it up where I can see it. The factory install just has it velcro'd down low on the dash.
Also, the LS can cause issues when using the HWH auto leveling system. LS must be turned off and I found that I first need to lower the rear end or the jacks cant get my rig level even on level ground.
I think my back end might be higher than most while in the driving position. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing yet. (see picture below)
I was warned at the factory about the potential to do damage by not turning LS off before auto leveling. I think there should be an interlock between the two systems to prevent damage.
I know most all of us here are biased, but I believe you can't go wrong with any Phoenix product. They still build a quality camper and not many of their competitors can live up to that claim.
Good luck!
Jim G.
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Jim,
You have a great looking rig. Wow I was never told about turning off the LS before auto leveling. I will be doing that from now on, hope I haven't already damaged something. I only got to get away for 4 weekend trips this year now cant wait for spring to come and get back out there. My rig has been in for some warranty work at Campers Inn for 2 months it should be ready Monday for me to inspect and hopefully bring home. I'm glad they told me it was indoors during the snow we just had and will stay indoor until I pick it up.
Frank
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Thank you Frank. Hope all goes well with your repairs. Will be curious to hear what you think about the Campers Inn experience.
I assume your rig is in Kingston NH? Mind sharing what issues needed fixing? Two months hurts, good thing it is not camping season.
I got even less use of mine before covering it for the winter. :'( Just a couple of nights and a couple of day trips.
It was Barry Hyser that told us about the LS / HWH issue. Said if LS is left on the LS and HWI fight each other and can result in some twisting of the rig.
Sounded like it was a recent discovery and one that had not been anticipated. This was around October 12th that he told us.
Barry stopped short of saying they would look for some way to interlock the two systems but I'm sure if more people report problems, they will take care of it.
What do you think about your leveler performance? I was surprised that on my driveway with only a few inches of slope I could not get my rig level using the automatic levelers.
And if I don't put my LS into the lowest setting before turning it off, I can't get level even on level ground.
May see if I can lower the low LS height setting somehow to get more leveling. With the back so high, the front jacks cant raise up high enough to get the rig level.
In a couple of instances I was surprised to find when I looked under my rig after a failed leveling attempt that one of the front jacks wasn't even on the ground while the other was fully extended. (think twisting)
The HWH manual says that the last step of the leveling process is to make sure all jacks are down to stabilize the unit after leveling. But if the leveling attempt fails for any reason, this last step is skipped.
I admit I've got to learn more about this HWH system but right now I'm not thinking I'm in love with it. The effective range seems small for what we paid for it.
Would love for someone to chime in to let me know what I'm doing wrong because most every review I've read about the leveling system has been positive.
Was depressing this week seeing my camper under cover with a blanket of snow on it. Come on Spring!!!
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Jim - thanks for the write up. I know some think suspension upgrades are a waste of money, but we love to drive our rig, especially on the less traveled roads and I think (rationalize some would say) that it is even a safety issue. In a couple of days we are heading south for 3 months to get out of the cold Iowa weather. Steve.
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Jim,
Most of the repairs are minor so I waited until the end of the season to get done, weatherstripping on the emergency exit widow had an air gap about 1 inch long, fresh water slow draining replaced drain valve, one of the DC outlets on the dash kept pulling out when you disconnected something, missing remote for DVD player (You need this to adjust the surround sound otherwise it sounds awful), silverware tray needed to be replaced was cracked, replace rusty screw on awning support, replace cover and seal for bathroom fan they were defective (never leaked though), repair paint chipping between windshield and bubble above, replaced 2 cabinet doors and one draw front that where damaged when I purchased it, and not warranty I had them install the Safe T Plus steering stabilizer. It took a long time to get the parts and authorization to do the repairs from Phoenix is what they told me.
As far as Campers Inn goes you need to keep calling them to get anything done. This is our first RV and I am told this is normal with dealers but not something I am use to and probably never will be. I know a lot of this I could have done myself but its a brand new RV and I paid a lot of money for something done right the first time.
Frank
Thank you Frank. Hope all goes well with your repairs. Will be curious to hear what you think about the Campers Inn experience.
I assume your rig is in Kingston NH? Mind sharing what issues needed fixing? Two months hurts, good thing it is not camping season.
I got even less use of mine before covering it for the winter. :'( Just a couple of nights and a couple of day trips.
It was Barry Hyser that told us about the LS / HWH issue. Said if LS is left on the LS and HWI fight each other and can result in some twisting of the rig.
Sounded like it was a recent discovery and one that had not been anticipated. This was around October 12th that he told us.
Barry stopped short of saying they would look for some way to interlock the two systems but I'm sure if more people report problems, they will take care of it.
What do you think about your leveler performance? I was surprised that on my driveway with only a few inches of slope I could not get my rig level using the automatic levelers.
And if I don't put my LS into the lowest setting before turning it off, I can't get level even on level ground.
May see if I can lower the low LS height setting somehow to get more leveling. With the back so high, the front jacks cant raise up high enough to get the rig level.
In a couple of instances I was surprised to find when I looked under my rig after a failed leveling attempt that one of the front jacks wasn't even on the ground while the other was fully extended. (think twisting)
The HWH manual says that the last step of the leveling process is to make sure all jacks are down to stabilize the unit after leveling. But if the leveling attempt fails for any reason, this last step is skipped.
I admit I've got to learn more about this HWH system but right now I'm not thinking I'm in love with it. The effective range seems small for what we paid for it.
Would love for someone to chime in to let me know what I'm doing wrong because most every review I've read about the leveling system has been positive.
Was depressing this week seeing my camper under cover with a blanket of snow on it. Come on Spring!!!
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Jim
I put a question on liquid springs on the Tiffin forum to see if there is more info out there. Only one response so far. Here is a copy.
Ron S
Liquid Springs compatibility with Levelers
Post by Sarz272000 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:13 pm
A friend has a Class B+ with Liquid Springs and HWI auto levelers. He was warned if the LS is left on, the LS and HWI fight each other and can result in some twisting of the rig.
Does Tiffin use any kind of interlock for the two systems to prevent them from fighting each other? Anyone heard of this issue on a Tiffin?
Ron
Post by G-Dad47 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:07 pm
My understanding (from reading several posts and talking with an owner) is that it is an operator function to turn off the Liquid Springs system before leveling the MH.
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Thanks for that Ron!
This is going to be one of the first things I look into in the spring.
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On Wednesday I was driving my PC with Liquid Springs to my dealer to have some warranty work done and was wondering why it riding so bad never felt this bad before then I looked down and saw I forgot to turn on the LS once I turned it on oooh my what a difference went from a constant earthquake to a nice smooth ride.Worth even penny they charge for it.
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Hi Frank I concur with the LS endorsement. They certainly do ride nice. I would imagine in the off position the axle is just resting on the LS bumpers so there is not spring or shock absorption going on back there, so yea must be a terrible ride! Much worse than a non LS rig.
I hope your warranty repairs go much smoother and quicker than the last visit!
I've got a short list of repairs that I will try to do myself in the spring because they seem pretty doable and I don't have the patience to deal with dealers unless it is something major.
And as much as I have enjoyed my travels to Elkhart so far, the repairs I know about so far repairs don't warrant a special trip.
Good Luck!
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Jim
Found some more info on liquid springs from Tiffin site.
One interesting note is that they use a proprietary silicone solution that is the “liquid”. From my Physics classes I was always taught that liquid does not compress. Apparently this silicone does to a limited amount but it is highly impacted by temperature changes. So when you want put down the jacks the process is to lower the suspension and then power the system off. Then let the jacks lift the coach. This is because if you don’t and you get a temp change the suspension can lift you right off your jacks.
Ron S
Ps: I am impressed with LS. Would not hesitate to get it if needed to improve ride.
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We have confirmed that LS is no longer available for any model larger than the 2552.
LS is working on a lighter version for models larger than the 2552.
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RonJ
Thanks for that info. I contacted LS and asked weight impact for an E-450 chassis. Here is the answer.
“If you add LiquidSpring to the rear of your coach it will add 90lbs to the front and 190lbs to the rear.”
That seems to be low weight impact to me. It shows how the models greater than 2552 are weight critical.
Ron S
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Thanks guys for the LS info. Can't wait to get out and actually put the 2552 through its paces.
Hope you guys have managed to stay healthy through this Covid experience.
The camping reservations we had made have been cancelled so other than a bit of puttering in the driveway we really haven't gotten a chance do much with it.
I think tomorrow I will play with the levelers and LS a bit to see if my first impressions hold true.
Do you often have to put blocks under the jacks to get the lift you need?
Take care, Jim G.
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Phoenix Cruiser is on my short list - especially if they begin using the new Ford engine...
ArtistView,
Slight highjack.... , but you refer "especially if they begin using the new Ford engine". That I assume you are talking about the new 7.3 V-8 vs the V-10 engine.
I have some reservations about the V-8 having the power and the 'umph' to do as good as job as the V-10.
Does anyone have opinions about the difference?
I want to order and thanks to Jim, I might go for the Liquid Springs but have a concern about the smaller engine (for greater gas mileage).
Steve
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Steve,
My gut feeling:
I think new engine will be turbo to help you over the hills. Hoping v8 will provide a smidge better gas mileage.
My problem is that, based on my experience buying new model of cars first year out, the first year usually has kinks that need to be ironed out. By year 3 of a new engine all should be good.
Just my opinion.
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I think new engine will be turbo to help you over the hills. Hoping v8 will provide a smidge better gas mileage.
My problem is that, based on my experience buying new model of cars first year out, the first year usually has kinks that need to be ironed out. By year 3 of a new engine all should be good.
Just my opinion.
I would be very surprised if the new V8 will be turbo-charged, most especially for the E450. But I agree 100% with RonJ over the rest of his statement. Sometimes it takes even more than 3 years to get an engine right as was the case with the V10's spark plug ejection issue.
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Ron
Won't the v8 be underpowered if it doesn't have turbo?
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Hi RonJ,
I read the 7.3L-V8 horse power and torque numbers are a little higher than the 2-valve V10 it is replacing. I don't know how it compares to the 3-valve V10 version installed in the class-A chassis.
The 3-valve version is not used in the E350/E450 because the heads are too big to fit. That being the case, I wonder if the same issues will apply when trying to fit a turbo in such the same E450 confined space. If they get it all to fit, maybe the extra heat will be an issue. Whether it is a physical limitation or cooling limitation, I would be very surprised and impressed if Ford managed a turbo in the E450. Also considering the limited production E450 cut-away and stripped chassis now, a 7.3L-V8 turbo E450 would surely surprise me.
Ron Dittmer
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There’s a ton of info on the web regarding the new 7.3 Godzilla V8. A naturally aspirated Godzilla with only basic mods made 600hp.
All the reviews I found for the new engine were F250 Super Duty pickup tests, except for this one.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aEkfiqHi8uY
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VERY interesting video. Thanks for sharing that.
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Steve,
My gut feeling:
...snip... My problem is that, based on my experience buying new model of cars first year out, the first year usually has kinks that need to be ironed out. By year 3 of a new engine all should be good.
Just my opinion.
That's what I'm thinking too. New needs to be proven. The V-10 Is WELL proven, and to order may not be the best idea until we have some experience with it.
I will have to take a look at the Video posted above.
Thanks for your replies,
It all helps,
Steve
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https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a30753008/fords-73-liter-v-8-can-make-600-naturally-aspirated-horsepower-with-basic-mods/
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No idea but I wonder how soon this new power plant will even be available in the E450? I’m also in the corner of I wouldn’t consider it until there’s been some real consumer feedback. All this is assuming Ford makes it through this economic mess. They weren’t in the best shape before this hit with a lot riding on the new Bronco.
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According to the specs on this website it’s what you get unless you buy a leftover 2019. It would be a real shame if PC’s business took a hit because someone is afraid of change. Ford’s truck business is way too important for a screw up like Boeing’s. There’s no indication that they cut corners testing or rushed it into production.
The 7.3 V8 was engineered to get better fuel mileage than the 6.8 V10 by making peak hp at 3600 rpm vs 4100, with a flat torque curve. It will be interesting to see some real world motorhome tests, not just the F250 SD reviews that are everywhere now. Maybe someone will order a new PC and do a thorough write-up here with some useful information.
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It sounds good.
I too would like to see a detailed review.
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It’s not the fear of change that may hit PC or any other builder. If anything it will be the economy. Currently it’s being destroyed and sadly we’re doing it to ourselves.
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So true!