Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: garmp on July 22, 2019, 04:56:17 pm
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What's the popular opinion on leveling jacks, specifically for a 2351D? We're thinking of upgrading to a 2351D and trying to figure out if jacks are worth the price in dollars and/or in weight.
Rarely, knock wood, have we had leveling issues, but once we do this we aren't going to do it again. At least so I said before.
And possible other than cosmetic, is there any real advantage/disadvantage to the optional aluminum wheels?
Thanks
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My 2350 came with factory automatic levelers, and I'd give them to you if I could. I think I've actually used them once since we owned the vehicle (in Yellowstone), and even then it wasn't really necessary. I guess they'd be helpful when changing a tire, but even then I wouldn't bother. I'd just call AAA. The only time you really need them is for back country camping, but then I think you'd want the ground clearance you lose more. I wish for that 4" every time I pull into a gas station.
But there is one situation I can think of where they're helpful -- they keep "the truck from a-rockin'", if you know what I mean. So I guess the answer to your question kind of depends on your love life! <grin>
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Can't comment on levelers but I will give a HUGE recommendation for the Alcoa wheels. I have a 2014 2350 on E450 and on our 2 week maiden voyage we were flagged down by a driver who stopped us to let us know one of the "wheel simulators" (hub caps) was wobbling madly, who knows for how long?. We found that it had badly damaged the valve-stem extenders resulting in a (thankfully) slow leak to inner dual tire AND caused a soft spot on the sidewall from rubbing against the hub cap - had to be replaced with less than 2500 miles on it. The truck tire dealer we found told us he refused to sell the simulator/covers due to previous catastrophic events like ours, some resulting in instant deflation and significant damage. When we got home I ordered up the Alcoa's and have been pleased not only with their appearance but also the improved ride they provide. I was able to get 4 wheels (inner duallies are still stock steel) with caps, nuts, etc installed for under $1,500 - very cheap peace of mind.
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But there is one situation I can think of where they're helpful -- they keep "the truck from a-rockin'", if you know what I mean. So I guess the answer to your question kind of depends on your love life! <grin>
If you need levelers for that reason, you'd be better off investing less money in heavy duty front and rear stabilizer bars and shocks. They offer stability while driving, stability when parked walking around inside, and stability during.......well......you know. ;)
BTW: I understand you cannot or should not use the class C levelers to raise a tire off the ground. Others with them should be able to provide specifics.
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Can't comment on levelers but I will give a HUGE recommendation for the Alcoa wheels. I have a 2014 2350 on E450 and on our 2 week maiden voyage we were flagged down by a driver who stopped us to let us know one of the "wheel simulators" (hub caps) was wobbling madly, who knows for how long?. We found that it had badly damaged the valve-stem extenders resulting in a (thankfully) slow leak to inner dual tire AND caused a soft spot on the sidewall from rubbing against the hub cap - had to be replaced with less than 2500 miles on it. The truck tire dealer we found told us he refused to sell the simulator/covers due to previous catastrophic events like ours, some resulting in instant deflation and significant damage. When we got home I ordered up the Alcoa's and have been pleased not only with their appearance but also the improved ride they provide. I was able to get 4 wheels (inner duallies are still stock steel) with caps, nuts, etc installed for under $1,500 - very cheap peace of mind.
Though we have not had issues with valve stems or simulators, I do plan on getting Alcoa wheels when replacing our tires. It makes sense they should offer some benefit in the quality of the ride and handling, as well as general appearance. All our other vehicles have alloy wheels. Why not our most expensive one that would benefit most from them?
I plan to recover some money through resale-ing the take-offs on Craigslist.
What does Phoenix charge for Alcoa wheels? Do they include quality one-piece extended valves, or those cheap add-on extenders that I hear are problematic?
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I can certainly understand how aluminum wheels will spiff up the appearance. But I don't understand how they can benefit the "ride" comfort. They aren't so much lighter that they'd lower the unsprung weight enough to matter are they?
How much lighter are they per wheel?
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The shop that moved my tires from steel wheels to Alcoa's weighed them and the aluminum were (average) 5# lighter per wheel - not much but that is unsprung weight. They recommended the metal valve stems without any extensions. They also sold me the (real German made) flow-through caps that make pressure checks and inflation a breeze.
It's probably subjective about ride quality but was noticed by my wife as well without any prodding - seems like they just ride more stable and true, feels like I put on new tires even though they were the same ones.
BTW - they sold me the more expensive "coated" Alcoa's and I wasn't sure about the value but after seeing someone in a campground scrubbing their "uncoated" Alcoa's I think it was money well spent.....
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There are a couple other threads about leveling jacks you might look up. We have them on our 2100 and do use them a lot. As to leveling, Ron is right, you cannot lift the tires off the pavement--so not even helpful when changing a tire. They only tweak the level of the PC. We mostly like and use them for stability. Because of the wheel base on the 2100 it is more susceptible to movement from wind--and there is lots of wind in the Rockies, and even stepping on the rear entrance step causes motion.
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When I was placing my order at PC recently, I asked Barry how much the Alcoas were.
He said about $3K.
I passed as I knew I could get them later for a lot less if I missed them.
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Not so sure you’re supposed to but my levelers will lift the front wheels off the ground.
I have trouble keeping the wheel covers on as well. Zip ties help but mostly just for the front.
The Alcoa wheels sound nice but I think I might try painting one of my wheels first to see how that comes out. Maybe add some chrome outer rings that would not cost much. I’d rather buy gas, just me.
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There are a couple other threads about leveling jacks you might look up. We have them on our 2100 and do use them a lot. As to leveling, Ron is right, you cannot lift the tires off the pavement--so not even helpful when changing a tire. They only tweak the level of the PC. We mostly like and use them for stability. Because of the wheel base on the 2100 it is more susceptible to movement from wind--and there is lots of wind in the Rockies, and even stepping on the rear entrance step causes motion.
It might not be safe to change a tire with the levelers, but mine are certainly capable of raising a tire completely off the ground. In fact, I used them to put my rear end on jack stands when I installed my Firestone air bags. I didn't realize they all weren't capable of lifting a tire off the ground, since this is the only rig I've ever owned. Maybe that's why mine hang down so far. So I guess my comments should be disregarded. If they didn't reduce my ground clearance, I wouldn't mind having them.
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When I was placing my order at PC recently, I asked Barry how much the Alcoas were.
He said about $3K.
I passed as I knew I could get them later for a lot less if I missed them.
I am not surprised of the mark-up.
The best deal I found to-date for the Alcoa "Dura-Bright" wheel package not including those special valve stems is HERE (https://buytruckwheels.com/collections/ford-e450-e350/products/ford-e350-e450-16-alcoa-durabright-wheel-package) for $1,399. If anyone has found them cheaper, please let me know. The non-Dura-Bright wheel package is $100 less but I want the Dura-Bright finish.
If your PC currently has steel wheels with wheel covers and you want to upgrade to the Alcoa wheels, the right time for the change is when buying new tires. Do it all at once for a lower installation price. Buy the wheels on-line, have them shipped to your house, place them on the floor in your PC, and then go to the tire store of your choice. Be sure to include those special valve stems, also available on the internet. I found these HERE (http://yourtireshopsupply.com/category/796_828/ford-dodge-class) but not yet certain they are the best available. When making the change, "Be Sure" to specify stick-on wheel weights for both inside and outside positions. The clip-on weights tire shops hammer-on will damage the finish on the wheels.
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Ron, that's the exact source/lowest price I found for the Alcoa Durabrights and I was very pleasantly surprised when I showed it to my local (Minneapolis) dealer and they price matched with in stock wheels. Turned out that buying local helped as I had to exchange lug nut covers twice to get the correct ones. My truck service station dismounted from old wheels, mounted on new ones with new metal stems, flow-through caps and balance tape for only $100 since I've become a steady customer with upgrades to my PC.
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I miss stated when I said in my previous post, "... you cannot lift the tires off the pavement" The levelers certainly will lift either end or both at the same time off the pavement. We have done so--only once-- which is how we learned it is not a safe thing to do...even just one end or the other, let alone all four tires. The wheels will not have chocks to stabilize the coach. Think of the manual jacks you see people with travel trailers using. They are shaped like a teepee or traffic cone...multiple points of contact with the pavement so the trailer cannot roll off. The HWH levelers have just one point of contact so any movement of the coach (people inside, heavy wind, etc.), will make the coach roll off the levelers. With no chocks, the results are dangerous and can be disastrous. We still continue to occasionally lifted the coach tires off the ground because in some situations (like not a lot of room to back up/pull forward) it facilitates putting leveling pads under the tires.
Some type A coaches have different type levelers (come straight down and have big round pads on the bottom) and those can lift the coach off the ground.
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I hate the way the jacks hang down, but if you do a lot of camping away from level sites like we do they are worth the money. I always hated pulling into a rough site after dark and start digging holes or leveling with boards, so I would say evaluate where you camp most of the time.
As far as the wheels, I think the factory caps are junk and create problems, we pulled ours immediately and painted the steel wheels and haven't looked back. Thats a ton of gas or scotch money...
Doug
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Biglegmax....that’s the route I intend to take as well. The Alcoa I’m sure are very sharp but I’m not into garage art. I know it’s a big deal too many but I guess I’m more of the minority.
How did you scuff the wheels to prep for paint?
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Immediately after picking up our 3100 we purchased Alcoa Dura Bright rims to stop having to deal with the movement of the wheel covers Phoenix used on our unit. The difference in weight between the steel rims and the aluminum rims was a total of 68 pounds. You definitely want to go with the Dura Bright finish because the non-Dura Bright finish requires regular polishing to restore their appearance.
As for leveling jacks, we wouldn't own an RV without them. Ours are not the automatic version, we have to run them manually by pushing a button, but they work great leveling the unit. We use them every time we stop at a campground.
Gary
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Biglegmax....that’s the route I intend to take as well. The Alcoa I’m sure are very sharp but I’m not into garage art. I know it’s a big deal too many but I guess I’m more of the minority.
How did you scuff the wheels to prep for paint?
On another forum, I seen one fellow painted or power-coated his wheels a darker gray color that coordinated with the colors of his non-PC rig. He bought polished rings that snapped on like standard wheel covers, and did something about the lug nuts. It was a very nice sporty look.
But I will be investing $1,400 in the Alcoa Dura-Bright package. I have access to mounting and balancing equipment and free tire disposal, though I will dispose of only 2 of the 6 tires. The 4 tires on steel rims will get sold.
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We are adding the HWH levelers from Stuart’s. They install all PC levelers and know the PC well. I am tired of leveling the PC and the wobble when we walk around. Looking forward to the install. It is a little pricey but should add to resale some day. It will be so easy to set up camp with them; plug in, levelers down with one push button, slide out, awning out and we are camping!
I do have a question. When should we be placing pads under the jacks? What kind a pads are best to use? We have flat pads that look like tire tread. They are flexible which may not bode well on dirt surfaces. I will use them in the driveway to support the jacks though.
Thanks
Ron S
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Ron, thank you, I’ll do some search and see if I can locate it. Paint is the route I’d like to give a try. Cost is minimal and almost any color would look better than white.
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Sarrz, we use our levelers all the time. I have yet to have the need for any pads under them. I have thought the need may arise if it’s really hot and the pads are asphalt to keep from damaging the asphalt. That came to me at a Camp with asphalt pads but since then I have yet to come across another place that used asphalt parking.
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It sounds like everybody is aware, but do not purchase the uncoated aluminum wheels. They would look nice on your rig for total of one day. Ask me how I know (Jeep, not RV).
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I do have a question. When should we be placing pads under the jacks? What kind a pads are best to use? We have flat pads that look like tire tread. They are flexible which may not bode well on dirt surfaces. I will use them in the driveway to support the jacks though.
Thanks
Ron S
Ron, I can't be of much help on the pads except to say that this is what I bought:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016V2JQWI/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016V2JQWI/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
They come in two sizes--I bought the square ones (8.5" X 8.5"). I haven't had much opportunity to use them yet, so can't be more specific on performance. They are an extremely tough substance, not rigid, but not easily flexible. Looks like they will hold their shape and support on any surface. In addition to use on asphalt, as Joseph discusses, I would expect to use them on loose gravel, or if the ground is really wet.
All the best, Mike
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My 2350 came with factory automatic levelers, and I'd give them to you if I could. I think I've actually used them once since we owned the vehicle (in Yellowstone), and even then it wasn't really necessary. I guess they'd be helpful when changing a tire, but even then I wouldn't bother. I'd just call AAA. The only time you really need them is for back country camping, but then I think you'd want the ground clearance you lose more. I wish for that 4" every time I pull into a gas station.
But there is one situation I can think of where they're helpful -- they keep "the truck from a-rockin'", if you know what I mean. So I guess the answer to your question kind of depends on your love life! <grin>
Would you be able to post a picture please? RE: the loss of ground clearance? I was strongly considering adding leveling jacks in my 2350, but this sounds like a serious issue, especially with me lowering it.
If you are a member of the PC facebook page message me there. MUCH easier to post pictures. tymote
And about the wheel covers... I am fortunate to have the 'old' stainless covers that dont move, look FANTASTIC. Love the look when they are cleaned up. Is it all the new ones that have the 'creeping' problem?
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Though we have not had issues with valve stems or simulators, I do plan on getting Alcoa wheels when replacing our tires. It makes sense they should offer some benefit in the quality of the ride and handling, as well as general appearance. All our other vehicles have alloy wheels. Why not our most expensive one that would benefit most from them?
I plan to recover some money through resale-ing the take-offs on Craigslist.
Someone should call dibs!! Wheelmaster no longer makes jam nut type 16” front wheel covers, which seems really dumb since they still sell the jam nut type rear wheel liners.
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Volkemon, here's that pic of my rear levelers. I know its a lousy pic, but I was too lazy to pull it out of the barn to get a good one. I drew a red arrow. As you can see, they hang down almost as low as the mud flaps, maybe about 2" less.
And I know someone is going to ask... that white thing hanging down is my sewer hose carrier, which I made from a large (5", I think) plastic gutter downspout.
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I did not realize levelers take away ground clearance. Can anyone comment on levelers for a 2551 or 2552 and about clearance from raised leveler to ground. Could they drag on driveways?
I had enough of that dragging stuff with our travel trailer.
Thanks
Ron Sarz
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Ron,
On my 2019 2552, leveler clearance isn't an issue. The front HWH levelers in raised position clear the ground 8.75", considerably above the transmission mount cross-member which has a clearance of 7" even.
The rear levelers are higher at 10.25"-- noticeably above the black tank and rear end housing clearance.
Mike
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Thanks Mike. Our 2551 should be similar. I will call Stuarts to verify. I can’t wait to get them. It’s one luxury we desire especially in our slanted driveway.
Ron
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Joseph,
I didn't do much prep. I think I wiped them down first with MEK, then alcohol, then sprayed them with a relatively cheap rattle can of flat Rust Oleum. The paint job has held up better than most things at the 18k mile mark. We have a black and white theme, so flat black worked well for us.
I can appreciate nice aluminum wheels, I know how to keep them clean( I owned a car wash for 27 years) and looking nice, but I use my motorhome more as a tool, not garage art like you mention.
The commercial pads like Mike mentions look great, we just use chunks of pressure treated 2x8's. The only time I really screwed up( with pads anyway) and should have used a pad was when we arrived at a campsite in late fall on an afternoon when the temps had melted the snow some, I put the jacks down, during the night they sank somemore, then froze hard into the ground. That required a shovel to dig them out, another lesson learned.
Doug
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Never felt the need for jacks on a coach less then 25'-26'. Used a 33' Newmar Baystar A for a month a few years back and the dealer told us to make sure to use the jacks to level the coach before you put the slide out. Newmar has several models with half and full body slides. One day I forgot to use in a state park that was a little off level. Heard this groaning noise when putting out the slide. Realized then the twisting and wracking a slide goes through in an unlevel coach. Makes sense. Fell in love with the auto jacks. Push one button and 15 seconds later your level. Not sure I would get in a 24' RV....at our age probably.
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Volkemon, here's that pic of my rear levelers. I know its a lousy pic, but I was too lazy to pull it out of the barn to get a good one. I drew a red arrow. As you can see, they hang down almost as low as the mud flaps, maybe about 2" less.
And I know someone is going to ask... that white thing hanging down is my sewer hose carrier, which I made from a large (5", I think) plastic gutter downspout.
tymote tymote And the picture is FINE, leave her in the barn. Looks like it has more clearance than the trailer ball does, and further forward. I suppose if one does NOT have a trailer, that would be the 'scrape point'. Thanks again!
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I do watch under the rig when backing into a site with rear parking bumpers or big rocks. We don't want to hit the bumpers with our jacks and we make sure to stop with enough space for the jacks to swing clear. Other than that, We don't worry about them.
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tymote tymote And the picture is FINE, leave her in the barn. Looks like it has more clearance than the trailer ball does, and further forward. I suppose if one does NOT have a trailer, that would be the 'scrape point'. Thanks again!
Sorry, not even close. Leveler clearance: 6". Tow hitch: 14"
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I do watch under the rig when backing into a site with rear parking bumpers or big rocks. We don't want to hit the bumpers with our jacks and we make sure to stop with enough space for the jacks to swing clear. Other than that, We don't worry about them.
"Jacks swing clear"? See, that's what makes me think my rig is different. My jacks don't swing at all, like those manual jacks I see on a lot of trailers. Do later versions of the automatic levelers solve the clearance problem by making them swing down into position?
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BlueBlaze,
I'm not knowledgeable about what model leveling jacks that Phoenix used in the past and when they transitioned to newer models.
However, the system installed on my 2019 2552 is the HWH Model 725 Automatic Leveling System. That system is available with two different jacks, 6000 and 9000 pound units.
Both jacks store horizontally; they swing down to vertical position before they extend, and then rotate back up to horizontal when they are retracted.
Mike
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tymote tymote And the picture is FINE, leave her in the barn. Looks like it has more clearance than the trailer ball does, and further forward. I suppose if one does NOT have a trailer, that would be the 'scrape point'. Thanks again!
Sorry, not even close. Leveler clearance: 6". Tow hitch: 14"
Oh. Well... guess the picture didnt have a good angle. They looked to be 1-2" below the hitch crossbar when I squinted... :lol
At lunch now, and 'embiggened' the picture... I guess I dont have a good perspective on it. Looks like 2-3 inches above the flaps, maybe 1-2" below the hitch crossbar. Thats why I thought they were about where the nut on the trailer ball was when it is installed. NOT 8" below!!!!
Thank you much for the effort, however. Give me something to look out for when shopping for levelers. tymote
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What's the popular opinion on leveling jacks, specifically for a 2351D? We're thinking of upgrading to a 2351D and trying to figure out if jacks are worth the price in dollars and/or in weight.
Rarely, knock wood, have we had leveling issues, but once we do this we aren't going to do it again. At least so I said before.
And possible other than cosmetic, is there any real advantage/disadvantage to the optional aluminum wheels?
Thanks
We have a 2019 2350 and very pleased with the leveling jacks.. (a must in my opinion). Our previous was a 2100 and realized it was an inconvenience camping unlevel all the time. Worth the money in my opinion.
Happy camping!
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We have HWH touch panel controlled 325 series. They fold up like little bird legs. You deploy them and they swing down, then you use the buttons to extend or retract the rod once they are in the vertical position. It's interesting in that they seem to all fold up to different levels depending on what is behind them (above them). We broke the cable on one of the jacks (John drove backwards while they were deployed-bad plan) and it folds snug up against the bottom of the rig. The other front jack has big cabling between it and the rig so it hits that and stops. NONE of them are the lowest point on the rig.
I crawled under the rig with my handy dandy tape measure.
- Front Driver's side is about 8.5" from the ground in the stored position
- Front Passenger side is broken and totally tucks up into the rig. There is nothing blocking it. I don't know where it will sit once they fix the cable.
- Rear Driver's side - is right next to our sewer drain - not crawling around over there. Looks similar to other rear jack.
- Rear Passenger side is about 7" from the ground
The brackets on what I think is our gas tank are about 8" from the ground
The big round thingy on the drive shaft is several inches lower than that but too far under the rig to wriggle on muddy gravel. I think that is the low point on the rig.
The jacks are attached near the tires so it would be hard for them to hit the ground unless you are on seriously uneven surfaces like big rocks you are straddling as you drive and then you'd be nailing other parts under there. We've never hit them on driveways or parking bumpers but, as I said before, I'm careful to make sure we are clear of obstructions when directing John in backing the rig.
We use our jacks all the time. The fridge likes reasonably level. The cabinet doors and drawers like reasonably level. The shower drain likes reasonably level. The liquid in the pots on the stove like reasonably level. The coffee pot likes reasonably level. If our site is level, we usually don't deploy the jacks but we like more primitive campgrounds without paved sites so we often need to seek level. Hope this helps, H
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That's awesome! Folding jacks -- I had no idea. No wonder people were concerned about using them to change a tire. Mine even have a big crossbar between the rear jacks. There's no way the rig could fall off of them, but it's certainly not worth the clearance problem. I wonder what it would cost to retrofit mine and get that 4" back?
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You could use the jacks to change a tire. You can lift the tires off the ground and yes we've done that when the site is seriously off level. What you don't want to do is lift all REAR tires off the ground since those are your brakes and you're likely to roll forward off the jacks. Yes we've done that too. The truck stops once the locked rear tires hit the ground so it's more of a giant hop and the jacks are designed to handle driving forward off of them. It's scary but you learn quickly not to do that again (though it took us twice, we're a mite slow at times).
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That's awesome! Folding jacks -- I had no idea. No wonder people were concerned about using them to change a tire. Mine even have a big crossbar between the rear jacks. There's no way the rig could fall off of them, but it's certainly not worth the clearance problem. I wonder what it would cost to retrofit mine and get that 4" back?
BlueBlaze,
Just in general, installations of new HWH systems on "Class C's" seem to run close to $5K. I know that Phoenix has the option priced at about $5500. I see an internet ad offering to "coordinate" installation of a "Class C system" at the HWH factory in Iowa at a discount to the "Regular Retail Price of $4900", by special arrangement with the factory.
It is possible to buy installation kits to do your own installation for less than the installed price. I see one vendor that sells a large variety of new and used RV equipment that has complete kits consisting of new and refurbished components listed for about $2500. I don't know whether it might be possible to use some of your existing system (pump, reservoir, controls, etc) and just replace your jacks with the swing-down type (which are available both new and used). That type question could probably best be answered by HWH.
All the best, Mike
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Thanks for your comments on the levelers. They sure seem good to have. We had an appointment with Stuart’s to install them but had to cancel due to some personal issue that came up. Hopefully we can get them done sometime in the future.
Ron S
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My advise on auto-leveling hydraulic jacks.....
If you are like I was back in 2007, ordering a brand new PC made just for you, and you can't decide to get them or not......then don't get them. If you change your mind later, then get them later. They are the last thing installed on a brand new PC anyway. So installing them now or later makes no difference concerning installation processes. Who knows, you might save yourself good money, significant weight, and some technical complexities.....you know that KISS principle that comes up now and then.