Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: churst on November 20, 2018, 06:00:22 pm
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Hello all!
I have a 2012 2910T. I installed solar panels and batteries for boon-docking. I have 4 100Ah 12 V Batteries parallel and 4 100W panels connected serially and a 40a MPPT controller. I have turned off my inverter, but even then the solar panels can not keep up. When I disconnect the battery, then connect it again, the inverter fan turns on - even when the switch says it's off! The surge protector is off, I checked the chassis battery and it has a different Voltage than the carriage so the"start" switch is off (I think).
The drain overnight is almost impossible to recharge using the solar alone . When the battery is turned off I still have a nightly discharge from about 12.7 to 12.1.
I understand the cold weather (11 deg in the morning and highs of 40 - in Idaho) is effecting battery capacity , but the panels are putting out 6-20 amps during most of the day, and of course nothing at night. I would expect a float of 13.3V during the day without the battery connected.
Any ideas? Is it just the cold?
Thanks!
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Are you running your furnace? My furnace pulls a lot of power from my batteries.
Your solar panels are in parallel not series, otherwise voltage would be 68 volts.
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Hi churst,
Considering that you have a 2012 model year PC, your inverter might be a Tripp-Lite. If so, be sure to turn off the inverter using the switch on the inverter itself. Turning it off using the control panel is not completely shutting it down. You will continue to have a significant drain.
There is more discussion about the Tripp-Lite inverter power drain HERE (https://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?topic=73.0).
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My Battery is turned off, as well as the furnace, refer, water heater, fans, lights, inverter- all are turned off. My panels ARE connected serially and will go as high as 82 V or 32 amps, that's why the 40 Amp MPPT controller. You get much more power from serial connections, especially in poor conditions, but you have to have the proper controller.
My inverter is the 1800 watt Xantrax. There is a little control switch behind the driver's seat, and it is turned off. But here is the strange thing - when I turn the battery off, and the inverter is off, I can turn the battery back on and the inverter fan starts and runs a few seconds, and the inverter is still turned off.
I bought a DC amp meter and am going to test for discharge. I hope I find something. The electron bucket is leaking!
Thanks for all the help!
Chuck
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Chuck, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think Ron d is referring to a switch actually located on the inverter itself, not the switch behind drivers seat. I have not had a problem with mine but try to follow these threads for future troubleshooting. Sorry for interjecting here since i am still learning as well, just trying to be helpful. Larry
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I will check for a off/on switch on the inverter. I only hope that there is one - Problem solved then?!!
Thanks Larry!
Chuck
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Ron D had a different inverter/converter combined system. He does not have the Xantrax Inverter with separate converter that you have. He was giving help in case you had the same as him. Kermit told us the system Ron has worked really well but it confused people and they switched. My impression at the time was Kermit preferred the Tripp-Lite.
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Ron D...... was giving help in case you had the same as him.
Kermit told us the system Ron has worked really well but it confused people and they switched. My impression at the time was Kermit preferred the Tripp-Lite.
You are correct.
I really like our 2007 Tripp-Lite inverter/converter combination unit, but it did take some time to figure out how to utilize it wisely, requiring a discipline for energy efficiency. It is not a "no-brainer" unit for people who boon dock often. But once you set it up for boon docking, and use discipline, it's a great unit.
Per Kermit's instruction, for multi-night boon docking, shut off the Tripp-Lite using the switch on the inverter itself. Turn it on only to charge the batteries using the generator or shore power, or when using a 110V item on battery power. You should also disable the standy-by feature from the control panel to save an additional 1 amp hour of energy. This is done by unplugging the headphone jack from the rear of the remotely mounted Tripp-Lite control panel. I unplugged mine 10 years ago and never plugged it back in. One more benefit from this over-all practice is that the cooling fan on the inverter never runs which would disturb our night sleep.
Leave everything the way Phoenix set it up if you drive from one shore power night to the next with only overnight boon docking during your in-transit days. Understand that when setup this way, the inverter is consuming 12 amp hours of energy. Boon docking multiple nights with the factory setup significantly reduces battery reserve power, greatly increases recharge times, and reduces over-all battery life.
With the factory setup, camping without shore power or generator power during a 3 day holiday weekend (and not driving the rig during the weekend) would nearly kill our house batteries. Longer boon-docking would be a total kill on the batteries unless recharging via generator with the Tripp-Lite. I prefer recharging using my better/smarter Black & Decker battery charger for shorter generator run times.
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I have had a Triplite for 10 years. It had always had a slight drain on the batteries. When it is on, the unit cycles the 120 volts on and off looking for a load on the outlets.
My solution was to turn the switch on the unit off at all times unless I needed the 120 volt outlets.
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My panels ARE connected serially and will go as high as 82 V or 32 amps, that's why the 40 Amp MPPT controller. You get much more power from serial connections, especially in poor conditions, but you have to have the proper controller.
I can't believe this, each panel puts out 17v and up to 8 ampa. In parallel you will get 17v and 32 ampa. I think if you have them in series, the charge controller will cut back the voltage to 17 volts and you will not get 32 amps, but only 8 amps. Please provide me some reliable source that says to put them in series.
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Sure! Here is a pretty good site for 2 100w panels, parallel and serial.
https://winnebagolife.com/2018/03/add-portable-solar-to-your-rv
I have 4 Renogy 100w panels. They produce 21v at max. That's why I have to have a 40A MPPT controller. I have seen my controller register pv 82 volts.
I concede the amps number may be wrong until my friend and engineer sends me a reply, which I will post here. I do know the MPPT controller figures out your needs and goes for the gusto.
Happy Thanksgiving all!
More later.
Chuck
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Here is my engineer's reply;
Basic electronics 101: When power sources are connected in Parallel, the current capacity is additive. When Power sources are connected in Series the Voltage is additive.
Maximum Power Point Tracking PV regulators take advantage of this by wiring the matched (voltage and current output the same within small tolerances) in Series to obtain higher voltage and lower current through the wiring system to the MPPT regulator. The regulator can then actively convert the input to the optimal desired voltage and current to the battery bank.
Here is a pretty good explanation: https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/batteries-and-charging/mppt-solar-charge-controllers.html
Ray D. Congdon - KL7UT
Thanks!
Chuck
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We have two 160 watt panels and a Morningstar MPPT controller installed on our PC. I did this with consideration given to adding two more similar panels if I needed the extra power in the future (in over two years we haven’t needed the extra panels). I also considered using the series panel arrangement for the positive reasons described in the article in Chuck’s post above. However knowing the areas where we occasionally camp could have partial tree shade on one or sometime both panels I elected to install the panels in parallel. It is my understanding that in a series arranged array that if one panel gets partially shaded the power output of the combined array is significantly degraded. In a parallel arrangement it is only the panel that is partially or totally shaded whose output is taken down whereas all of the other non shaded panels are producing without degradation. If we camped in areas exclusively with a clear view of the sky the series arrangement with an MPPT controller I believe would provide a somewhat greater amount of useable power thus being more cost effective.
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I asked my engineer Ray about that - he said this;
"Actually shade is a bad thing on any array... but with the bypass diodes that are in the panels, the series installed array suffers a little less as it has more overhead voltage to work with."
But the difference wasn't worth climbing up on top of your Cruiser to change to series.
Chuck
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Chuck, I don’t mean to be argumentative to you or your engineer. I certainly am not a solar panel expert but I noticed on a single portable panel that I used with a travel trailer that a shadow from a blade of grass or tree limb significantly reduced the wattage of the panel output. Clouds typically did not have as big an impact as hard shadows. It also seemed logical that since the same current must pass through every panel in series that the current output of the total series array would be set by the weakest panel I.e. the shaded panel, misaligned panel, or one with smallest potential output.
This link I think shows how shade effects parallel vs. series configuration. https://www.gonewiththewynns.com/Sailboat-Solar-Series-Parallel-Shading (https://www.gonewiththewynns.com/Sailboat-Solar-Series-Parallel-Shading) The video is especially good as it shows actual tests addressing this question. As mentioned earlier the series configuration has advantages but the best compromise arrangement would be determined by how the panels are to used particularly if one panel will be subject to partial or full shading.
When I was designing our solar system on the PC I struggled with what was the better arrangement based on where we would typically camp and what time of year would we need the most solar output. I wish I had seen the above video at the time it certainly would have made my decision easier. I am sure your arrangement works well for you but I post this for others who are new to solar and hopefully will provide them some useful information.
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I have had a Triplite for 10 years. It had always had a slight drain on the batteries. When it is on, the unit cycles the 120 volts on and off looking for a load on the outlets.
My solution was to turn the switch on the unit off at all times unless I needed the 120 volt outlets.
Both of our TVs turned off go into a standby mode so they still use a small amount of 110V, as does our GFI outlet. This kept our Tripp-Lite activate, running at 12 amp hours for no good reason. With our PC, it is best for me to completely turn off the inverter (using the little switch on the inverter itself) until we want 110V from the batteries, or an external 110V source is available to charge the batteries. When the Tripp-Lite is shut off, the batteries still get charged when the main Ford engine is running.
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For all here with solar panels.....
I read an article maybe a year ago about solar panels. I was taken-back by how poorly a solar panel functions with the slightest shadow cast on it. A small shadow cast on the corner of a panel reduced it's output by ~90%. A shadow of ~15-20% on the solar panel rendered it completely ineffective. To you with solar panels, would you say that is fairly accurate? I wonder if solar panels today are better than the ones used in the case study.
There was a time I wondered if we could benefit from a solar panel, but any such thought was put to rest after reading that because we seek shady camp sites, and it is only when parked for days or a week at campsites where I'd want a solar panel to do it's job. I don't want to setup a panel on a tripod either. It's too much to carry along and too much fuss for our travel style.
I could see having an array of panels being very useful if boon-dock camping in the desert for days on a regular basis. But for us shade-seekers, solar panels would be a bad investment.
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Ron, we got our 2552 new last February with 2 factory-installed solar panels on the roof. I specified the Bogart Engineering solar controller and TriMetric battery monitor, which Phoenix installed. These make it easy to watch the amps as they come and go from the coach batteries. Since getting the rig, we've lived in it for 6 moths in California, Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia. Perhaps a quarter of our nights have been without hook-ups. Since I also specified a NovaKool RFU9000 electric-only refrigerator, it's been important to keep the batteries charged enough so our food and medications stay cool. The fridge takes 5½ amps when its compressor is running, perhaps a third of the time. The solar panels have kept things going with no problem except for a few times when we stayed for more than one night in the forest in deep shade. I ran the AC generator for a bit after the first night.
The panels charge the batteries at at least a few amps anytime there's daylight, even when it's heavily overcast. Shadows across part of the panels diminish their output somewhat, but nowhere near as much as I've seen reported by some. My guess is that the performance of partly shaded panels depends on the panel type and how the individual cells are connected.
John
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Shadows across part of the panels diminish their output somewhat, but nowhere near as much as I've seen reported by some. My guess is that the performance of partly shaded panels depends on the panel type and how the individual cells are connected.
John
So apparently some panels are much better than others with regards to shadows cast from any nearby thing.
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John ( McDuck ), thanks for the real world evaluation on your solar system . I'm not big on the technical aspects, of which there are many views , but a 1st hand account works best for me . Do you use or did you use your generator much on your trip ? We have solar on our Trend and it has kept up with whatever demand we've needed , 1 panel and 2 agm batteries , only on 2 occasions have I started engine to top off batteries and only for about 15 minutes each time. Even on not so sunny days and or with shade , it has always kept us going.
I have considered NOT having a generator and installing 2 extra agm batteries in place of it , if that's doable . Only time I would miss not having a gen is IF it was way warm and needed a/c on, but we don't dry camp a ton either and the engine is always there too .
Like the idea of a NovaKool fridge too , our 3 way has temp swings when it gets pretty warm out , does the outside venting grill go away when getting that fridge , both or just 1 ?
Thanks , Pappy !
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Hi Pappy,
No, we haven't used the AC generator very much, though there have been a few times I was glad to have it. For example, when we stopped for lunch in Folsom, CA, last July it was 100 degrees out and the only convenient parking was in full sun. I was glad to start up the generator to run the air conditioning. Maybe half the running hours we have on the generator are from firing it up once a month under load for an hour, as recommended by Cummins.
Running the truck engine also charges the coach batteries, of course, but not as quickly as AC from shore power or the AC generator.
Our coach batteries are the two beefy 6-volt ones Phoenix installs as standard equipment.
The NovaKool electric-only fridge needs no outside venting, so I asked Phoenix not to cut their usual holes in the side wall for a propane-fired fridge. Fewer holes is better. All service access is inside the rig, through the removable panel below the fridge door. The fridge did give me fits for a while with an infrequent intermittent failure which took me months to track down. Every time I'd remove the access panel to troubleshoot, it would start working. (My wife said all I had to do was wave my screwdriver near it to scare it.) I finally traced the problem to its small optional ventilation fan, which would occasionally fail to start, draw excessive current, and cause the controller to shut down. Since I've replaced the fan, it's been very reliable.
Like other small fridges, this one has only a single thermostat, located in its main compartment. I does OK in warm weather, but when it's cold inside the rig, the compressor doesn't need to run much to keep the main compartment cold. This has the unfortunate side effect of allowing the temperature in the separate freezer to increase. I guess this is nature's way of suggesting that maybe I don't need to drive around the country with ice cream in arm's reach, which just makes me get fat anyway.
John
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Hi Pappy:
We just completed a 3 month trip to Alaska, the coast of Oregon, and Northern California this summer. I have a "standard" (if there is such a thing!) 2017, 2350 Sprinter with one solar panel that Phoenix installed. and standard refrigerator. We dry camped for a week at the furtherest campground in Denali, and only ran the generator once to used the microwave. The rest of the time (coffee pot, etc.,) we had plenty of power. I would guess 1/3 of the other nights involved dry camping as well. Of course Alaska had a lot of sun, and, for much of the trip we were driving 200 miles or so, so the batteries stayed up. In short, I'm very happy with the solar, and, while I would have preferred 2 panels, 1 seems to get us by.
Jack
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Jack, Thanks for the lowdown on the solar, we rather envy the trip you took , looking forward to getting northwest . Seems we don't do a big stretch at a time either , 2 to maybe a 6 hour hike..she likes to be in before the street lights go on .
John , I always get that sinking feeling that w/o a generator there will be that 1 time we could use it . Read alot of good reviews on the NovaKool , have to re check that single thermostat deal . Think if you don't wanna get fat you should drive the van more , sounds like your sitting too close to the fridge ?? Thanks for the response !
PS.. any mpg reports worth mentioning ?
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Running the truck engine also charges the coach batteries, of course, but not as quickly as AC from shore power or the AC generator.
Our coach batteries are the two beefy 6-volt ones Phoenix installs as standard equipment.
I found driving our PC daily, even if only for a half hour in each direction, does wonders for charging the house batteries. It's sitting at a campsite for a week without starting the Ford engine (and no solar) is when our batteries need to be watched closely.