2020 Ford E450 cutaway

Yesterday I watched as my 3 year old nephew gleefully unwrapped his haul of birthday gifts. The hands-down favorites were a bulldozer, excavator, dump truck, and a Disney Cars race car.

In jest I asked the adults in the room what kind of toys would the GND crowd allow their children to play with?  One said play dough , another said water-  because it’s free .

After unwrapping all the gifts, the little guy really wanted to play with the excavator , and could not understand why Daddy had to take it away to charge the battery first. Sometimes it’s easy to see the obvious by looking through the eyes of a child.

@blueblaze

Interesting idea, converting your house into a power generation station.  I guess that's what they mean about rebuilding every building in America for the "Green New Deal".  Because when you compare the yearly average output of a solar cell or wind mill to the current energy consumption required to run the United States, you realize that you'd basically have to convert the entire landmass into a giant energy generation station to do it. 

We are off topic here and I certainly do not want to get into an argument about this.

Some facts about solar energy as far as residential use is concerned:

1) "Green New Deal" is a political gambit and has nothing to do with solar energy or anything else except getting elected.

2) Look up "net zero home".  The house I am building now will be net zero.  Which means it uses over a 12 month period zero external energy.  This is not pie in the sky or whacko green dreams.  It is reality.  Many homes are being built net zero. 

3) The state of California has set the residential building code to require any home built after 1/1/2020 to be net zero.  The state of Washington has just passed a similar building code road map but with no specific implementation date.

4) The average residential solar install in order to produce enough electricity on site to be "net zero" is 10 to 15kwh of panels.  Which will easily fit on most homes provided the roof is oriented roughly to the south.

5) The cost of solar panels has dropped dramatically over the last 5 years to the point that utility scale solar farms are now price competitive with new fossil fuel plants.

Quote from: BlueBlaze on February 17, 2019, 09:21:21 am

Quote from: dogyard on February 16, 2019, 11:25:17 am

@Blue Blaze. How could a personal computer ever replace mainframes as a business platform, the 64k of memory and 5mb hard drives will never be enough to run business critical applications.  At least that was the thinking in 1970's, I know because I made a fortune specializing in migrating companies from mainframes to pc's.
My power company (Xcel Energy) ONLY allows me to install solar panels in my home to produce 110% of what I have historically consumed if I want to participate in their "solar rewards" program selling them back my excess energy (I usually make $12-$15 dollars per month) . I have 14 panels in place, I have room on my south-facing roof for 45 more panels!  Xcel's biggest fear is that they will become a "backup" power source for customers rather than primary supplier.  I'm afraid you fail to take into account the rapidly increasing improvements in technology in your analysis and therefore reach the wrong conclusion.  BTW, it won't surprise you to learn that I'm writing this response online from my very compact, powerful and always connect cell phone, likely many others do too.   Would you have predicted that 10 years ago?

Microsoft didn't need a government subsidy to create the personal computer.  When solar pays for itself without a government subsidy, it will be ready for primetime and I will be on-board.  But when that day comes, whoever invents that new technology won't need corporate welfare to sell it, any more than Bill Gates did.  Unfortunately, the PHYSICS of the current technology says that solar cells are about as efficient as they will ever be.  We've had them for 60 years and the current crop is only about 30% more efficient than the first crop. "Moore's Law" doesn't seem to apply to solar cells, so we're gonna need an entirely new way to do it. But like I said, if it happens, that future Bill Gates won't need a handout to sell it. 

By the way, solar cells actually work pretty well if you don't bury them under 100 miles of atmosphere and hide them behind a planet 12 hours of every day.  NASA proposed building solar satellites back in the 70's.  Funny you never hear the anti-oil crowd talk about it.

Sorry to take us so far off topic, folks.  I'll shut up now.

I'll bow out as well, but do want to include this information to give some perspective to your assertion that solar is being unfairly subsidized/incented.
"Subsidies for Big Oil
Large oil companies also receive subsidies in the form of tax credits and exemptions. Oil companies have been able to avoid paying taxes on expenditures associated with the nebulous term “intangible drilling costs” since 1916. Intangible drilling costs can encompass fruitless efforts to drill in new locations, as well as costs associated with new equipment or drilling infrastructure. These are huge sources of capital expenditures."

I guess I'm guilty too.  I just have a little retirement home business, but if deducting your expenses means "subsidized" then I'm just as guilty as Big Energy.  I write off our fabric, batting and every other expense involved in running our little T-Shirt Quilt business.  That's because every business in America is taxed on their PROFIT, not their gross, (as is the case with your individual taxes).  But we don't ordinarily call that a subsidy unless we're trying to make a political point.  Elon Musk gets a REAL subsidy -- the government literally writes him a check on every electric car he sells -- after allowing him to deduct literally the entire cost of making the car like any other car company.  He doesn't make a profit to tax, but they give him money to make his product, anyway.  Me and Big Energy wish we could get THAT deal!

I love the net zero narrative. It would only cost me 35 grand to be at net zero and only take 30 years to pay for itself. Hmmmm I’d be 94 and the equipment would be wore out just like me.  A 2 bedroom town home in Orange County cost 700,000+ and the new California plan adds another 25-30 grand per home.

What a crock. There isn’t a day that goes by where we don’t have to talk ourselves out of leaving this liberal dump. The only thing that keeps us here is family. They all want to move as well but it’s not easy when your at certain ages and business as well.

Net zero will take a while but it will come.  A better short term alternative is "Net Zero Ready".  Which includes all of the building code requirements for Net Zero but without the PV panels.  The estimated cost for that on a new build home is less than 2% over the cost of a conventional home.  So on a new build home with 30 year mortgage the payoff is rather dramatic.  The building science and techniques are there, it is just convincing builders that they need to change how they do things.  Changing the building code levels the playing floor for everyone.

One advantage of Net Zero Ready is that PV panel technology is still evolving and costs still dropping.  So building Net Zero Ready means you can add the panels years later when prices are lower or performance better.

I agree that the California mandate is overreaching but the 2016 International Residential Building Codes (when adopted) will be almost as strict as what California is proposing now although without the PV panel requirement.  Note that building codes are updated every three years and local jurisdictions generally do not adopt immediately so most places in the US are still using 2010 or even earlier versions.  But when they do adopt the new set of codes they will be requiring almost the same energy efficiency as California.

We sure could use better building inspectors here in the mid-west, making sure the building codes are well practiced with regards to insulation done properly.  Then adding the windows and door systems that leak badly after just a few years is terrible.  Our son's house was built around the same time as our house but it is terribly drafty.

We built our house just over 30 years ago in 1988.  I designed it (I was the architect) and was on-site daily making sure things were done right.  I cleaned up the work site and structure on the weekends.  I first braced, then used expandable foam around all windows and doors.  I used duct tape to seal the foil-backed exterior sheathing before the Tyvec covered everything, followed by brick.  I touched up the insulation in all tight areas including the corners.  I did my best in making sure things were done right without spending a fortune, and it paid off.

I selected Andersen casement windows of which to this day are still performing like new.  We have two fireplaces, two kitchen hood vents to the outside, three bathroom vents to the outside, the dryer vent, and one shop vent to the outside.  All are dampened.  The furnace is the same generic high efficiency installed in 1988 as is the original hot water heater that vents outside with no damper.  I also have an outside vent direct into the furnace room that is free-flowing, a requirement for a chimney-less furnace.  The house is so tight that I leave the two fireplace flues open all year round for fresh air.

Our first house from 1978-1988 was less than 1/3 the volume of air but heating and cooling it costed more, even though we invested in wall and attic insulation and a furnace damper.  So much can be done with just a little extra care and attention to detail, along with good quality windows and doors.  But to be clear, it all starts with good windows and doors, and their installation.  If they stink, the rest of the effort won't be much noticed.

In recent years, I switched all lighting to LED except for the 32-4' florescent tubes in my work shop.  I feel there isn't much more we can do other than lower the thermostat in winter and raise it more in the summer, and also lower the heat in the garage.  But we want to live comfortably.  I'll never replace the furnace, hot water heater, or air conditioner due to age alone.  They were high efficiency for their time which will do until they no longer work.  It seems new ones are either made in China, or critical parts are made in China, so I am in no hurry to deal with "quality" problems.

Good info Ron.  I also designed and built my first home, a passive solar design that was one of the first in the state at that time.  Over the 20 years lived in that house our natural gas bills averaged $200 per year.  I agree good windows are key, we also used Anderson casements. 
While researching for our current build I came across this site: https://www.buildingscience.com/ these guys are trying to take the craft of construction to the science level. 

One thing that became apparent was that good insulation installed poorly is not as good as poor insulation installed properly.  And an astonishing number of homes have the insulation installed sloppily.

Another detail I never thought about was building tightness in addition to the insulation.   They now use a blower door test to make sure the building meets code for air tightness, something not even heard of when I built my first house in 1981.  Most homes built in the 70's and 80's would show a blower door test of 10 to 20 air exchanges per hour.  Code now is 3 per hour and 1 per hour is consider a goal for quality construction.  What I had not realized was that air exchanges waste as much or more heat as poor insulation.  Both are important, and both need to be done right.

Ron the extra care you took to seal up the windows and other areas has likely paid you dividends for decades.  I wonder what a blower test on your house would show?  Probably much better than the average for that era. 

It is encouraging to see the code enforced by a actual tests like a blower door test, rather than an inspector walking through and saying it looks good to me.  They are also testing for the air tightness of the HVAC ducting with code requirements that limit leakage.

jatrax,

Where were you 33 years ago?    I sure would have loved to pick the brain of someone with your knowledge back in 1985-1987 during the conceptual, design, and implementation stages of our house.

A blower test on our 30+ year old house today would be interesting.....after I close the flu in both our fireplaces.  As far as I know, the only open air between the inside and outside of our house is the chimney for our gas hot water heater and the 3" vent from the outside into the furnace room with that hot water heater.  There is also a vertical 2" PVC pipe I installed inside the walls to pass coax cable between the attic and the basement which I have utilized well over the years.  A quick stuffing of insulation would remedy air infiltration there.  But as with the fireplace flu(s) a little fresh air into the house is a "must" for healthy living.  It is better to control where it enters rather than have air come in all over the place.

The poor man's leak test is a stick of incense on a windy day. Light the incense and move it around the windows, doors, vents, wall switches and electrical outlets. The smoke from the incense will dance in any air movement.

I was told some places rent the fan system for the door blower test but never verified that info.

Ron, I don't think anyone was thinking about this stuff back then.  Not until 1981 and we got our first 'gas crisis' shock.  My passive solar home was in response to that and it served me well for 25 years.  Quite satisfying that the techniques I used then are finally becoming mainstream.

The 'healthy house' thing has some truth in it.  Any new code home will include either an ERV or HRV depending on the climate.  Energy Recovery Ventilation or Heat Recovery Ventilation.  You are quite correct that the fresh air needs to enter where you control it, not in a haphazard fashion.  ERV / HRV run separate from the regular HVAC and have controls that monitor humidity.  They pull air out of bathrooms and kitchens and push fresh outside air into the bedrooms.  The air runs through a recovery coil that extracts the heat from the outgoing air and moves it to the incoming airstream (in heat mode) and the reverse if you are in cooling mode.

Primary areas of concern are not the existing flues and vents but cracks at the base board, sill plates, plumbing penetrations, electrical outlets, window and door trim.  There are some quite astonishing videos on Youtube showing how much air escapes from an improperly sealed house.

Here is a quote from Building Science Corp: 

People who say “I want my house to breathe” are really saying “I want to rely on the mistakes that were made by the plumber and the electrician to provide me with fresh air.”

Here is the article: Air Leaks and How They Waste Energy

I'm pretty sure a 2020 Ford E450 cutaway is going to leak like crazy 'til someone puts an RV on it....