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About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout

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Ron Dittmer

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I get a question now and then about this subject so I am posting this in response.

This is for people considering buying a Phoenix Cruiser with a dinette, whether a used one or ordering a brand new one.

If the dinette is in a slide-out, the two bench seats get closer together which offers less leg room.  The table will also be smaller.  This condition is more severe with older PCs up to around year 2009.

When the dinette is not in a slide-out, it gets bigger by utilizing the angled transition wall between the van and house.  This places the front dinette bench much closer to the front driver or passenger seat.  The distance between benches is further increased because there is no slide-out wall on the opposing side.  That moves the rear bench further toward the back of the rig.  Both front and rear gains, increase the distance between benches to provide more leg room, a larger table, sometimes larger bench seats (or taller backrests), and also makes a longer bed.  The close proximity to the front driver or passenger seat does not affect front seat adjustment.  However it limits reclining travel which is still comfortable as shown in the last picture.

The dinette in a 2351 and a 2552 slide-out is less an issue because the slide-out used in those two models are larger.  One PC owner with a dinette inside a 2552 slide-out, told me when converted into a bed, his measures 65" long x 36" wide.

If you want the biggest dinette with the most leg room, biggest table, and longest conversion bed, then you need to get the dinette in a 2351 or a 2552 without a slide-out.

For reference, here is our 2007 2350 dinette with no slide-out (with original cloth Sagemint Green seat cushions).  A new 2016 2350 no-slide-out dinette will be the same size.  When setup as a bed, it measures 71" long x 36" wide.  The distance between benches (the legroom) is 29.5", with the table measuring about the same.






Note in this picture how the transition wall area is utilized which cuts the corner of the base cushion, and also reduces the backrest.  Strange but true, when we seat 4 people, the person sitting in that position can hardly notice a difference.  When setup as a bed, we place the odd backrest cushion on the side opposite the pillow which is not noticed when sleeping.


This is our driver seat.  It is adjusted all the way back on the track.
Note the limited but not concerning reclined position and the ability to recline it a little more.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 06:52:10 pm by ron.dittmer »
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keelhauler

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2016, 04:48:24 pm »
As I said in the past. Kermit can make the Dinette in the slide-out any width you want.
I recommend 36" wide, I only made it 34" in these pictures.
See my 2552.





John

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Pax

Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 07:32:55 pm »
Nice layout, John!

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2 Frazzled

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2016, 10:25:47 am »
Ron, are you sure the slide out is different in the 2350 and 2552? I though the front portion was identical in these two models. The difference in the models being the bedroom and bath/the area back from the partition door.
John, Holly, and sometimes Chloe.
Travel Blog: Spiritofthewoods.net

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Ron Dittmer

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  • Location: N/E Illinois
Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2016, 10:32:21 am »
Ron, are you sure the slide out is different in the 2350 and 2552? I though the front portion was identical in these two models. The difference in the models being the bedroom and bath/the area back from the partition door.
I understand the slide-out in the 2350 and 2551 is common to each other.  The same applies for the 2351 and 2552 but is roughly one foot bigger.  The extra foot is gained because the over-all rig is that much longer.  That extra foot in the slide-out introduces a pantry with the couch and fridge.  If you want a dinette in a 2351 or 2552 with a slide out, then you sacrifice the pantry to gain the space required as keelhauler had chosen above.  I believe it is possible to get both a dinette and pantry along that wall, but only by eliminating the slide out.  Eliminate the pantry too for an exceptionally large dinette.

Because the slide-out in the 2350 and 2551 is one foot smaller, the fridge with couch is your only option.  If you must have a dinette in a 2350 or 2551, a slide-out is not possible for the dinette won't fit inside it.

Does that clear it up?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 11:04:14 am by ron.dittmer »
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HenryJ

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2016, 04:10:39 pm »
Those sure are pretty pictures. and our dinette though not supposed to make a sleeping quarters for a small gorilla has  a flimsy looking table leg. It is in the way out front with a push button on it. Well the seats are gone off to upholsterer to get in first class condition. Brand new dinette looked bad. it was not a credit to the PC I keep hearing about. The off center install of the table has been worked on now and it is centered. If it still proves to be uncomfortable for 2 people then it will get its sides trimmed and sanded and reinstalled. Nice to have a handy man with a room full of tools to work with and he gets the passenger seat anytime he wants.
Patricia
A new day has dawned now only traveling with Miss Elle . Jim will be watching over us.

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2016, 02:27:40 am »
Well the seats are gone off to upholsterer to get in first class condition. Brand new dinette looked bad.
Do you have any pictures you could share of the problem you had with your brand new dinette cushions?  I never heard anyone have trouble with them before so you caught my curiosity.
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HenryJ

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2016, 04:56:05 pm »
The Dinette question on our brand new 2910T... triple slide..The table was installed off center. That was one problem. Then that made the seating not usable for our 1400 mile trip home.. So I bought a chair at Walgreens in Elkhart near the plant so I had a place to sit near the table... Dog had taken over the sofa . Mr (who is in charge ) called in an upholsterer and he has been busy. He came by today for a check up on the new back cushions with nice pleats.. And soon it will all be in place again and 2 can sit and eat at the same table. The center post which is in the way.. now has been moved back a ways... about in center so it still supports but will not interfere with my knees.
I think paying for the leatherette for the PC was a big waste... poor quality upholstery and the mis fit meant it was way out of line. I am not happy yet but soon I hope. I will see if I can post photo's soon as everything is reinstalled. By the way I noticed a 2014 picture looked like similar install on that one. Maybe one party was thin..Just  because I don't cook does not mean I have thinned down to wear all the clothes in the guest room closet. Not yet. Patricia
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 07:05:34 pm by HenryJ »
Patricia
A new day has dawned now only traveling with Miss Elle . Jim will be watching over us.

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Sarz272000

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2016, 06:11:34 pm »
The more I consider it the more I prefer cloth instead of fake leather. Not as cold in cool weather or sticky in warm weather. How they can call it ultra leather amazes me and probably misleads purchasers.

Ron

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2016, 09:54:07 pm »
I have the ability to compare the cloth and vinyl (called Ultra Leather) seats because I have lived with both types as shown.  In-fact, I still have both types.  My cloth cushions are in a shipping carton, ready to ship as soon as I find a buyer for them.

Sorry about the change in lighting ambiance.  It makes it difficult to compare.


Back in 2007 when we ordered our PC, we ordered the dinette with the cloth seat cushions on the left.  At that time (maybe still today), the cloth cushions are filled with a low density foam.  I am 180 pounds and I bottom out on the cloth seats when I lean to one side with all my weight on one butt cheek.  My wife at 70 pounds less does not have that problem.

Five years later we ordered the vinyl cushions which are filled with memory foam.  It is much more dense and are much more comfortable to sit on for extended periods.  I do not bottom out on these cushions.  They are also a little thinner which provides a little more room away from the table in both directions.

The cloth makes it much harder to enter and exit from the dinette.  The cloth grabs and likes to wrinkle.  We have to lift our body up off the cushion and straddle to the next position and repeat as necessary.  The vinyl is very easy by comparison for the surface is slippery and dense.  We sit & slide and are done.  Repositioning myself for comfort sake is no issue at all, unlike the cloth.

If the cloth cushions offered today, have memory foam like our vinyl cushions, that would help some, but the real cure is getting the vinyl.  As cold as it can feel, it's still the better choice.  At least it is for us.  We wear long pants and longer shorts so there is minimal skin contact anyway.

I really don't understand why the vinyl is an expensive upgrade from the cloth.  It's just vinyl after all.  I wonder if the extra expense is in the memory foam.  I find it hard to believe the cost is in the vinyl material itself.  I know it's vinyl because I unzipped the cushions and looked at the back side.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 10:20:15 pm by ron.dittmer »
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HenryJ

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2016, 07:15:11 pm »
Today was delivery day for the new cushions. Now 2 people can sit at the dining booth. If I can figure it out I have photos first is the one month old seating that is ugly ... and missing its end pieces..then the replacements that were installed today and are neat and tidy with one piece foam rubber.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 04:58:13 pm by HenryJ »
Patricia
A new day has dawned now only traveling with Miss Elle . Jim will be watching over us.

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Ron Dittmer

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    • My 2007 2350 Phoenix Cruiser
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  • Location: N/E Illinois
Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2016, 12:04:18 am »
HenryJ,

Your dinette looks very different than what Phoenix typically installs.  Where are the side walls that cradle the cushions?  Did you "special request" that?  It appears you have a square steel tube frame or thick board behind the backrest cushion.  Could you explain what that is?  Would you make the dinette into a bed and take a picture of that?

Looking at your two pictures, I understand why you asked for another set of cushions.

Ron
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 12:12:35 am by ron.dittmer »
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HenryJ

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2016, 10:13:28 am »
I was missing the boomerang end pieces and notified them and first response was nothing missing.  The upholstery job was loose fitting and sloppy. And the set up was not supposed to make a bed. But some of the parts were the make a bed table top and it was installed in the center of the window but not in the center of the seating space.. means it was skinny on one side and ok on other..I still have the big puffy cushions.. the upholstery man del and left in the shop for me to toss. The back cushions were on a board with a back board in the space too.. and the bottom cushions are on a board that can be picked up out of the seat space that covers the drawers. Now they are usable... We have had to solve our own problems with new unit... At our own expense too. So we paid twice for seating in the dinette booth. What I have seen the cloth seating looks good even in older units than ours did in brand new. At least now we can consider a trip and have full use after we get on ladder and see if we can determine where we had water seep in on slide out in rain storm... one in Elkhart and another in Baxter Tennessee on way home.  Happy Saturday. Patricia
P S no tube anything and no thick boards either.. they are thin plywood. The new cushions were our local upholsterer who does show cars for a friend . we went to a  supplier and selected the new fabric and he got new foam rubber and did the sewing up. We had no PC help. Its not the first problem I have solved. That's what I do. Usually they are not RV problems however.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 10:33:47 am by HenryJ »
Patricia
A new day has dawned now only traveling with Miss Elle . Jim will be watching over us.

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Ron Dittmer

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  • Location: N/E Illinois
Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2016, 12:31:24 pm »
Wow, thanks for the details.

This is so not like Phoenix.  The picture looks like it was taken from an L-Cheap-O motor home manufacture.  I wonder what's going on there, why it was made this way and why they did not help you with with making it right.  I would not be happy with this either.  If this is the new dinette going forward, I couldn't recommend a dinette  :'(  We love ours immensely.  It was one of the primary reasons for buying our PC.


Adding: Here is a picture of the brand new 2017 model with a dinette.  This looks right.  How you got that stumps me.  That is why I asked you if you requested anything special with your dinette when ordering your PC.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 12:39:07 pm by ron.dittmer »
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HenryJ

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Re: About Dinettes, Why A Dinette Is Bigger When Not In A Slideout
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2016, 01:31:03 pm »
So what we have found out is that quality control inspections are done by the purchaser !  If you can evaluate things like this you will see ... but when you are not sure what to expect you can get surprised. And we did in a couple of ways. I see that many people have felt they had good response when something went off the tracks...Ours has maybe 1400 miles on it.. is in the big garage which youst to be our injection molding shop... waiting for next time out on road. Mr has his cataracts and other repairs done now. So he can take over the reservation clerk job again....He was looking at redesign for the table but let the one we have work for now. This was not a good presentation for customers who see a lot of people in a years time... Both with our distance of travel and our group events.
First big stop in Brunswick Ga  Oct. 18th  we will see... supposed to be 3 PC's at that get together plus others in class A

regards... Love your input    all the great mechanical folks who have PC experience  you do so much to clue us all in to what we can do... Patricia
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 09:00:04 am by HenryJ »
Patricia
A new day has dawned now only traveling with Miss Elle . Jim will be watching over us.