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Electrical Converter Question

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fandj

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Electrical Converter Question
« on: March 23, 2016, 10:34:52 am »
I am in the process of evaluating the PC 2552 to make sure it meets our needs.  I had asked the factory what electrical converter does PHoenix use.  I was told the unit is an Intertec 5200.  I found limited information on this.  One internet source said the unit is a Parallax model.  My previous experience with Parallax are single stage (13.7 volts).  This frequently does not allow a full battery charge in a timely manner and for long term float storage it can cause excessive electrolyte loss potentially resulting in premature battery failure.

I found on this forum one owner reported his 2013 PC came with a Progressive Dynamics multi stage converter which addresses the issues with a single stage unit.

I am curious for those with newer Phoenix units what converter is being supplied?  I am looking for a unit that provides 14.4 - 14.8 volts during the early stage charging and once charged it drops back to about 13.2 volts for long term storage as the Progressive Dynamics provides.  Perhaps the Intertec model has been changed to provide multistage charging but at this point I can't confirm that. If indeed Phoenix changed from the PD to the Parallax unit does anyone have any information as why the change?

I have no financial interest to any of the various converter manufactures just trying to insure the unit I purchase fits my requirements.

Fred
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 11:30:03 am »
Hi Fred,

I assume you mean "inverter", not "converter".  An inverter is like a converter in that it generates 12V when plugged into a 110V power source whether a power peg in a camp ground, or when running the generator.  But an inverter also generates 110V when operating exclusively off the pair of 12V house batteries.

Phoenix USA started installing inverters, not converters, in 2005-2006 as an option.  2007 was the first year the inverter became standard equipment on all PCs, unless deleted by special order request.

The first inverter was a Tripp-Lite 2000 watt which was installed 2005-2006 to 2009-2010
The second inverter was a Xantrax 1800 watt which was around 2011 to some time more recent.
I've lost track since.  Actually I thought the factory was still installing the Xantrax, so I am surely outdated on this.  Hopefully someone else will step in and fill all my history holes.

Our 2007 Tripp-Lite inverter has user-modified settings.  For example, I had to reconfigure it when I switched from conventional lead acid to AGM batteries.

Ron Dittmer
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 11:34:57 am by ron.dittmer »
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Pax

Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 11:50:42 am »
We have a 2552 (model year 2014) and it came standard with:

Xantrex PRO 1800 Watt Inverter

and.....

Parallax Power Supply Converter and Panelboard - Model 555 (Input: 130VAC, 975W  Output: 55A, 13.6VDC)

My limited understanding is that the Xantrex inverter does the charging in this setup.  I believe there are limited options available for setting charging parameters on the Xantrex PRO series, but the newer Xantrex Prosine 2 has quite a few user-definable settings for various options and battery types.

If the factory recently told you that the converter they are installing is a Parallax, I would assume that was what they are installing.  >8)
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fandj

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Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 12:18:41 pm »
Ron,
I may have the terminology wrong but what I am specifically concerned about is when I am plugged into 110 volt shore power and when using the Onan generator the batteries are being charged with multi stage charging at the voltages listed above.

My current camping trailer has a Parallax unit that outputs 13.7 volts at all times to the battery whenever I have shore power.  Fortunately I have a roof mounted solar panel coupled to a Morningstar MPPT controller that provides 14.8 volts during the absorption phase which allows the battery to be fully charged.  I have a Victron unit that keeps track of amp hours into and out of the battery to determine full charge.  I periodically use a hydrometer to confirm state of charge as well.

As a side note in my current camping trailer I have a Samlex pure sine wave inverter.

I am sure you already know this but others that read this may not be aware that getting the battery to full charge is very important.  Most battery manufacturers state that using anything over 50% of the battery capacity significantly shortens the battery life.  So if one only gets the battery to 90% state of charge at 50% available capacity this lower charge amounts to 20% of the battery capacity.  I typically like to keep my batteries above 80% for longer life.  This 90% charge then represents 50% of the range I like to work in.

I am certainly no battery or converter/inverter expert so please let me know if I have something wrong.  I frequently stay in campgrounds without hookups so getting this part of the electrical system as close to optimum as reasonably possible is very important to me.

Thanks for your response.

Fred
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Polish Prince

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Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 12:33:44 pm »
We just ordered and upgraded the Xantrex 1800 Inverter to a Xantrex Prosine 2.0.  Both Xantrex include multistage chargers.  We upgraded because we wanted Pure Sinewave inverter power and also the Prosine 2.0 tests the circuit to insure you have good shore power.  If the shore power is bad, it will not change from battery power. 
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keelhauler

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Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2016, 01:11:14 pm »
Fred,
You are correct, what you are talking about is called a converter. It takes the 110v shore power and provides the 14.8v to 13.2v dc to charge the batteries.

Again you are correct you should ask for a multistage converter. A single stage would be bogus.

Luckily with your arrays you can get your batteries fully charged but most people without solar cannot.

I could discuss this with Earl or Kermit before I order and get the CONVERTER that puts out a high voltage until the batteries reach 100% charge.

Many people don't know that the battery manufacturer, like Trojan, tells you to charge at 14.9 volts.
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fandj

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Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2016, 01:02:17 pm »
Looking at the various Converter/Inverter units it appears the Magnum 2000 watt pure sine wave unit has the ability to operate as a 4 stage battery charger.  The default voltages built into the unit is very similar to what I was looking for and what Keelhauler's post listed. The Magnum unit also has the capability to make changes to voltage, current, time, etc. for the various stages though I would think the default values would be adequate at least initially.  The various reviews shows good reliability and customer support.  I have asked Kermit if the Magnum unit could be installed in lieu of the factory supplied unit.

Does anyone have any experience with the Magnum units either good or bad?
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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2016, 02:21:19 am »
My apologies for stepping into this conversation.  I obviously did not understand the depth of the question, nor able to contribute knowing now.  :-[   It's way over my head. :blush
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fandj

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Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2016, 07:16:09 am »
Ron,
No apologies needed for me.  The history you provided of some of the previous makes/models used by Phoenix was useful.  My experience came from simpler systems that typically just included a converter to change 110 volt shore power to 12 volt DC to charge the battery and power lights, water pump, furnace fan, etc.  If one wanted to run items such as a tv a separate inverter was installed to invert 12 volt DC to 110 volt AC.

It appears that some of the more complex units now have the ability to convert 110 V AC to  12 V DC and to invert 12 V DC to 110 V AC all in one unit.  I expect this is what Phoenix supplies but I am not entirely sure.  The factory did say a Xantrex 1800 watt inverter was provided. It was the converter function that charges the battery that I was most interested so my initial question was not very clear.

Ron I have already learned a lot from you and others on this forum so I am interested in your input anytime.  With what I am learning here I know I will benefit from others experience when it comes to placing an order for a PC.

Fred
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campmuch

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Re: Electrical Converter Question
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2016, 11:15:52 am »
I do not know about all of the specifics but own a 2012 2551 with xantrex 1800 and keep my coach hooked up to elec all time. Never added water and batteries stay up.
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