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16

General Discussion / Re: Water leaks in under passenger side dinnett seat on PC 2100

« on: August 03, 2019, 01:14:23 pm »

Found The Leak !   No more wet carpet under the dinnett seat.  Tested  dry ,dry ...
Now let me tell you where I found the  leak . On the PC 2100 the furnace grille just aft. Of the passenger side dinnett seat , the outside frame not the grille door  that screws 0ff, the outer frame has a seal completely around the frame it was splitting and separated just enough to let water seep in  and run down the wire bundle at the base of the floor under the dinnett table through tunnel step  and find a  spot under the seat carpet that held the wetness.  The Proof: after the carpet was dried  and lifted away using a hair dryer making certain  everything was dry  , using  dry paper towels around the wire bundle and surrounding areas,  everything was dry.  Now went outside the coach and sprayed water around the grille frame. Wamo water seeped in wetting the paper towels running along the wire bundle to the carpet area .Cleaned and dried it again . Then the next day after everything was good and dry , resealed the frame neatly  and completely around using silicone sealer in my case black in color to match exterior  finally letting all dry for another day.  The true test with the paper towels in place,  saturated the PC exterior heavily repeatedly more than any rain can do . Checking cabinets under everything interior and paper towels  dry ,dry 

So glad you found the leak - awesome work troubleshooting! Very happy for you!!!

17

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: August 03, 2019, 01:12:11 pm »

It sounds as if I may be able to achieve a "softer" ride in my 2350/E-450 by running tires below maximum inflation.  Based on my weight ticket (attached) and load table here - https://www.goodyearrvtires.com/pdfs/rv_inflation.pdf -it seems I should easily be able to run fronts at 55-60# and rear dualies at 65#.  I'm wondering if anyone else is/has done this and what the results in ride comfort, handling and/or tire life were for you?

Thanks everyone for your posts and comments.  I went to a CAT Scale yesterday and my 2019 E450 2350 has 3600LB in the front and 8720LB in the rear.  Total 12,320. (full water tank, empty gray and black)
So I guess I need to review the previous chart provided and determine the correct air pressure in front and rear vs going by the place card info? 
Also, it appears because I have to have 90LB in my rear heavy duty air bags to keep them off the inside block (per Bob at Elkhart Hitch).  The rear it not sagging and when you go over a long dip, you can tell the rear air bags are helping, so not convince they are contributing to the overall rough ride especially since most of the rough is experienced in the front.  Hard to say.  I plan to call Elkhart Hitch this morning and share the rear weight and see if he has any other comments related to the bags.

If you own model 2350 of any model year with or without a slide out, and you are putting in the maximum 80 PSI in your tires, that will surely give you a ride of torture to you and your house.  The only benefit to having so much air in the tires will be for improved fuel economy.

RJW365's axle weight numbers seems right to me.  Your front axle is roughly 350 pounds heavier than ours due to the placement of your fresh water tank and also that you have a slide out.  Adjusting your tire pressure to match your actual load will make a really big difference for the better.  Just BE SURE to use a trusted tire gauge.   If it is not a digital tire gauge, I would compare it to one.

90 PSI in those additional rear axle-mounted air bags sounds like a whole lot of extra PSI yielding a much rougher ride.  I recall with our previous motor home, the air bags of a different brand required a minimum of 15 PSI to prevent damage to them.  If you have an E450, I advise to research the minimum requirement for your rear air bags and set them to that minimum during a good long trip, and see what you learn from that PSI setting.  If you own an E350 with lower-rated rear springs and are leveling your rig with air bags, that is a different situation.

About the Phoenix supplied tire label in the door jamb.  For our 2007 PC 2350, the recommendation is real close to my actual load requirement.  I think most of my troubles in past years was related to bad tire gauges providing inaccurate readings by as much as 9 PSI.

It is interesting that the front axle load rating for the E350 and E450 are identical.  They have identical coil springs and all.  The difference in their load rating is all related to the rear axle.  So if you have a short PC with a light weight front axle, your E350 or E450 front suspension is going to make for a rough ride up front.  So MAKE SURE your front tires are not over-inflated.

Ron, thanks for the reply and details! Much appreciated.  The tires installed on the 2019 2350 E450 are Hankook. Tire size is LT225/75R16E.  I will definitely be reviewing the tire pressure ratings and  have always used Acutire digital gauges. The pressure rating on the PC card is 75 front and 80 rear which is what I have inflated but appears this is part of my problem.   The heavy duty version of the air bags on my E450 may also be attributing to the problem. My previous RV 2018 2100 had the standard air bags and keeping 30LB was perfect.  Since we jumped to E450 they wanted to use the heavy bag with a safety block in the bag to prevent tear.  If less than 90LB the damn block is hitting and not helping the rear ride.   I have an active conversation with Elkhart about the pressure ratings in those bags to support the vehicle rear weight.  My 2350 does have a slide out with fridge and couch.  Thanks again and I will update again when I have any new information.

Ah, I understand about your air bags.  You MUST add 90 PSI to prevent internal bottoming-out.  Good that you are working with Phoenix on it.  I understand why you had rear air bags on your previous 2100, an effort to lift the rear to level it along with improved handling.  Why did you add them on your E450 2350?  Did you think...."They helped before so they should help on my new rig?"  I would consider removing them.

About the Phoenix supplied tire pressure sticker.  The recommended 75 PSI in the front and 80 PSI in the rear sounds like a lot more air than your load requires.  Maybe they accidentally placed the wrong sticker.  Ask Phoenix about that.  Maybe they can sent you the right sticker.  Your numbers should be around 60-65 PSI.

Back to air bags.  Our old rig with air bags was proportioned similar to model 2100, a short rig with a large rear over-hang.  CLICK HERE TO SEE IT  The air bags with lots of air stabilized it and lifted it a few inches.  But the ride was rough with a lot of air.  So I adjusted more air or less air as the driving conditions required.  If you look at the picture taken through the driver's door, you can see the air bag control unit with air gauge, located by the driver's left knee.  One button turned on the air pump.  The other button let out air.  Another picture showing the battery compartment & converter, also shows the air compressor.

I recently found out the actual limit of the Air Lift bags is 5000LB and 7500LB for the heavy duty bags.  So this means what I have on the vehicle is already over weighted thus the issues with pressure, etc..  Needless to say we are taking the RV back to Elkhart Hitch at the end of the month to remove the Air Lift system.  They agreed is was a mistake and are refunding.  While I am having the bags taken off, I am going to have the KONI FSD installed.  They have to better than the factory shocks and have researched that is seems I cannot go wrong?  Right?  I will call PC and review the tire weight and sticker they have installed in our 2019 2350. 
Thanks Ron and everyone for all the great comments.  I be sure to share how things go after the bags are removed.  We start a 3 week trip out west the next day so can only pray all goes as expected.

18

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 30, 2019, 08:51:10 pm »

Hi Rob hope you get your new PC ride corrected.i know you will find a solution. 
BTW : I'm STEVE I PURCHASED YOUR PC 2100 you traded at the factory in Elkhart. We met there back in May . I want to say thank you  we love our 2100 you took excellent care of it . It's funny I was reading the the forum and I recognized your Doberman  picture and you being in Maryland  named Rob . Again we are super pleased with our 2100 PC  perfect for us . We been traveling quite a bit with it , rides nice with the Air lift ride you installed.

Steve, good to hear from you and hope all is well.  Glad you recognized our Doberman!  That is too funny.  We did enjoy that RV and features but really needed a little more room thus the next level upgrade.  We also had a couple issues but PC was very helpful with repairs.  I hope you continue to enjoy your new PC 2100.  Take care!  Safe Travels.

19

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 30, 2019, 08:41:30 pm »

It sounds as if I may be able to achieve a "softer" ride in my 2350/E-450 by running tires below maximum inflation.  Based on my weight ticket (attached) and load table here - https://www.goodyearrvtires.com/pdfs/rv_inflation.pdf -it seems I should easily be able to run fronts at 55-60# and rear dualies at 65#.  I'm wondering if anyone else is/has done this and what the results in ride comfort, handling and/or tire life were for you?

Thanks everyone for your posts and comments.  I went to a CAT Scale yesterday and my 2019 E450 2350 has 3600LB in the front and 8720LB in the rear.  Total 12,320. (full water tank, empty gray and black)
So I guess I need to review the previous chart provided and determine the correct air pressure in front and rear vs going by the place card info? 
Also, it appears because I have to have 90LB in my rear heavy duty air bags to keep them off the inside block (per Bob at Elkhart Hitch).  The rear it not sagging and when you go over a long dip, you can tell the rear air bags are helping, so not convince they are contributing to the overall rough ride especially since most of the rough is experienced in the front.  Hard to say.  I plan to call Elkhart Hitch this morning and share the rear weight and see if he has any other comments related to the bags.

If you own model 2350 of any model year with or without a slide out, and you are putting in the maximum 80 PSI in your tires, that will surely give you a ride of torture to you and your house.  The only benefit to having so much air in the tires will be for improved fuel economy.

RJW365's axle weight numbers seems right to me.  Your front axle is roughly 350 pounds heavier than ours due to the placement of your fresh water tank and also that you have a slide out.  Adjusting your tire pressure to match your actual load will make a really big difference for the better.  Just BE SURE to use a trusted tire gauge.   If it is not a digital tire gauge, I would compare it to one.

90 PSI in those additional rear axle-mounted air bags sounds like a whole lot of extra PSI yielding a much rougher ride.  I recall with our previous motor home, the air bags of a different brand required a minimum of 15 PSI to prevent damage to them.  If you have an E450, I advise to research the minimum requirement for your rear air bags and set them to that minimum during a good long trip, and see what you learn from that PSI setting.  If you own an E350 with lower-rated rear springs and are leveling your rig with air bags, that is a different situation.

About the Phoenix supplied tire label in the door jamb.  For our 2007 PC 2350, the recommendation is real close to my actual load requirement.  I think most of my troubles in past years was related to bad tire gauges providing inaccurate readings by as much as 9 PSI.

It is interesting that the front axle load rating for the E350 and E450 are identical.  They have identical coil springs and all.  The difference in their load rating is all related to the rear axle.  So if you have a short PC with a light weight front axle, your E350 or E450 front suspension is going to make for a rough ride up front.  So MAKE SURE your front tires are not over-inflated.

Ron, thanks for the reply and details! Much appreciated.  The tires installed on the 2019 2350 E450 are Hankook. Tire size is LT225/75R16E.  I will definitely be reviewing the tire pressure ratings and  have always used Acutire digital gauges. The pressure rating on the PC card is 75 front and 80 rear which is what I have inflated but appears this is part of my problem.   The heavy duty version of the air bags on my E450 may also be attributing to the problem. My previous RV 2018 2100 had the standard air bags and keeping 30LB was perfect.  Since we jumped to E450 they wanted to use the heavy bag with a safety block in the bag to prevent tear.  If less than 90LB the damn block is hitting and not helping the rear ride.   I have an active conversation with Elkhart about the pressure ratings in those bags to support the vehicle rear weight.  My 2350 does have a slide out with fridge and couch.  Thanks again and I will update again when I have any new information.

20

General Discussion / Re: Euro Chair Specs

« on: July 30, 2019, 07:57:24 pm »

We did not end up getting the Euro chair but someone sent us this information privately at the time we were looking.  Hope this helps:


Here are two more measurements that you might like to know:

The horizontal length of the chair is about 37" from to front of the seat to the rear of the backrest.  Because the backrest angles quite a way backwards, this length is greater than the floorspace occupied. 

The footrest extended adds about 12" more.

Thank you :-)

21

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 29, 2019, 10:20:05 am »

It sounds as if I may be able to achieve a "softer" ride in my 2350/E-450 by running tires below maximum inflation.  Based on my weight ticket (attached) and load table here - https://www.goodyearrvtires.com/pdfs/rv_inflation.pdf -it seems I should easily be able to run fronts at 55-60# and rear dualies at 65#.  I'm wondering if anyone else is/has done this and what the results in ride comfort, handling and/or tire life were for you?

Thanks everyone for your posts and comments.  I went to a CAT Scale yesterday and my 2019 E450 2350 has 3600LB in the front and 8720LB in the rear.  Total 12,320. (full water tank, empty gray and black)
So I guess I need to review the previous chart provided and determine the correct air pressure in front and rear vs going by the place card info? 
Also, it appears because I have to have 90LB in my rear heavy duty air bags to keep them off the inside block (per Bob at Elkhart Hitch).  The rear it not sagging and when you go over a long dip, you can tell the rear air bags are helping, so not convince they are contributing to the overall rough ride especially since most of the rough is experienced in the front.  Hard to say.  I plan to call Elkhart Hitch this morning and share the rear weight and see if he has any other comments related to the bags.

22

General Discussion / Re: Euro Chair Specs

« on: July 27, 2019, 04:48:29 pm »

Our Euro Chair seat slopes from front to back--18 1/2" off of the floor at the front, 14" at the back.
The chair including the arms is 27" wide at its widest point.
The seat area narrows from front to back--21" at the front, 19" at the back.
The arms are integral parts of the chair and are not removable.
Hope this helps,
  --Bruce

Hi.  I know this topic has been closed for a while....  I am thinking about adding a Euro Chair behind the passenger seat of my 2350.  All of the specs that were previously provided were very helpful.  I was wondering if anyone would be able to share the max depth of the chair from front/back (not reclined) and the diameter of the base.  Thank you!

23

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 27, 2019, 04:32:35 pm »

This is a topic dear to my heart, yet I have a 2007 E350 chassis, hoping to soften our front suspension by soon replacing our stock E350 front coil springs with E150 coil springs.

To you with an E450 2350, as you have determined, your chassis is far over-rated for the actual load it is carrying.  The source of your jarring condition is related to an extra stiff, extra capable front and rear suspension.  What I share next is what I feel will get you going in the right direction, and it should be a very affordable solution compared to all other options. 

Keep in-mind that I am not an authority on all this.

During your next RV trip, fully loaded with a tank full of gasoline, propane, fresh water (no waste water), whatever you typically mount on your rear hitch, all your stuff including clothing, supplies, cookware, food, bottled water, and also you in your typical seating positions inside the RV.........get your rig weighed at a truck stop with a truck weigh scale.  Weigh each axle independently as is common practice on those scales.  With the weight numbers, you can determine the difference between your actual weight on each axle, and compare those numbers with the capability of each axle.  I am NO EXPERT HERE so don't take my word as gospel, but I feel you want your actual load per axle to be 500-750 pounds less than the axle's capability.  If the gap is significantly more, your ride will be quite rough as you are experiencing today.

I did that exercise with our 2350.  Our front axle is extremely light with an actual load (worst case scenario) of 3260 pounds and a capability of 4600 pounds, a 1140 pound difference.  On our heaviest trip ever, our rear axle weighed 8220 pounds on the rear axle that is capable of 7800 pounds, a deficiency (over-load condition) of 420 pounds.  Since then we are more mindful of what we carry and where we place the weight.

In your case with model 2350 on an E450 chassis, you won't have a rear axle over-load condition, but rather a severe under-load condition like I have with my front axle.  As I previously mentioned, I will soon swap my stock E350 4600 pound front coil springs with lower-rated ones designed for an E150.  I strongly advise to learn from my results before taking any such action with your own 2350s.

Regarding your rear suspension, a truck suspension shop should be able to take the weight numbers you provide and determine how many rear leaf springs to remove to decrease the amount of load margin to get you to the 500-750 number.

In my case, I wish I could add one more leaf spring per rear corner to increase my rear axle capability and lift it up to rid our slight rear end sag.  I can't add any leaf springs because the extra height will prevent the rig from clearing our already tight garage door clearance.

Thanks for the all the details and information.. a lot to digest and figure out our next move.  I will likely be calling PC and seeing what they can do to help or suggest.  BTW - is there a better way to reply to all the post replies?  it appears it is creating a new post each time I reply.  Everything is too damn time consuming :-)

24

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 27, 2019, 04:24:27 pm »

RJW -  where did you get that 15k weight number? Your GVWR is 14.5k, but your 2350 is only ~ 11k with 2 people and enough provisions for a week.
I run 40 psi in the Firestone ride-rite air springs on my E350 with a stout Hellwig  rear sway bar. Any greater psi results in  a harsher ride and increased  body roll on twisty  roads.

If (??) the E450 tire placard on your 2350 specifies 80psi for the back tires, try running 60 psi instead,  which is what the tire placard on the E350 2350 specifies. To be clear, I am NOT suggesting that owners of the bigger E450-only PC models should deviate from their tire placard inflation specs for a softer ride.

The 15k was combined weight front and back per the brochure.. I typed to quick on the earlier reply, sorry for the confusion.  Per the Air Ride, we also had a 2100 prior with the standard Air Ride bags (Bob at Elkhart Hitch) and yes 30 to 40 pounds was plenty and ride was great.  We now have a 2350 and E350 was not an option anymore so E450 was recommended and now that is all PC is using in production.  Since it was a E450 the Air Ride recommendation was the heavy duty bags that have a center block inside to prevent collapse.  This is why the pressure is 90lb because anything less will not inflate enough to keep the vehical weight of the inner blocks (per Elkhart Hitch).
Thanks for your feedback and support.

25

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 27, 2019, 04:15:29 pm »

The koni shocks I installed were the FSD.   No help at all.

That stinks.. sorry to hear this news..

26

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 27, 2019, 04:13:11 pm »

I have a 2350/450 too. Rear air bags also. I figured the ride would be rough, and not great steering with the 4x4 option,but it sucks like you mention. I was hoping the air bags would help the 2350 sag, but they really did not. I'm pulling them off, and taking it to a custom truck spring builder to have them add and re-arc as needed to address the sag issue. Not sure what to do with the front end, but I think once the rear sag is gone, things will get better.
This might seem too simple but play with your tire air pressure some, its not the cure, but it helps. Summer heat makes pressures high, and the higher it gets the rougher the ride.
Doug

Thanks for the reply on this post. Tire pressure cold is kept at 75 front and 80 rear per sticker.  I have not played with decreasing since they already look a little round.  What pressure do you use on yours?  Also, Any chance you talked to PC about this experience; reason I asked is concerns of voiding the 1 year warranty and if they have had enough owners like us complaining about the hard ride issue that they would help with a solution.  Please keep me posted on any progress and I will do the same.  Thanks!

27

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 27, 2019, 04:07:25 pm »

Hi Rob , although I/we don't have a Phoenix , we have a winnie Trend that maxes out around 10,000# . It rode like a lumber wagon we first got it ! Handled nice and good road manners and mileage is good. I put air bags on rear and day night difference along with supersprings on front coils ..even better, don't get blown around in wind or being passed and minimal slamming . As for the airbags, that has been being discussed as "stiffening or hardening " the ride , many found out that adjusting pressure mostly cured the hard ride . I started out around 75-80# and over several days toned it down to around 45-55#  for max control and comfort, not Cadilac but much more tolerable .    I still get the bang over risers in the road but much less so .The front supersprings took most of the bang out too and less rolling too. Just my .02 cents and hope you get it dialed in to a pleasurable level ! Like insurance , you'll get it where you want it and almost never get a rough road again !!

Thanks for comments, very helpful.  The rear heavy duty (Air Ride) air bags will not support the 15k lb weight of the rear until 90 lbs is added.  The max is 100 so unfortunately not much play there.  I will keep the post updated as we continue our discovery.  Thanks again for comments and safe travels!

15,000 lbs on the rear!   The entire vehicle is only rated 14,500 GVWR!   

As to the front tires, how much (cold) air pressure do put in them?  I keep the front tires of my 2015,model 2551 at 75# while the rear are all set at 80#

Certainly, it's not a squishy ride... After all, it is a truck but nothing like you are describing.

Sorry, yeah that was a typo and meant to state combined weight.  The front per the brochure specification is 5000lb front and 9600lb rear.  I was informed to use the tire pressure per the sticker which is 75 front and 80 rear (cold).  What I described is the ride is extremely hard with no give in the bumps even with Air Ride installed on the rear.  This is a very expensive RV not a meant to ride like a rough truck.  In my opinion.

28

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 26, 2019, 06:50:52 pm »

I’m in a 2552 model year 2011 E450. Mine rides just like you describe. I installed the Koni shocks that are supposed to fix that jarring ride on bumps such as bridge joints etc. don’t waste your money on Koni, they did nothing to help the ride. I’ve been in contact with Koni and they CLAIM this is the first they have heard of this. Anyway I’m starting the warranty process foe replacements. If it turns out mine are in fact bad and the new ones help I’ll report it but I don’t have my hopes very high.   I won’t spend thousands on liquid springs either and have no idea what the fix is.   

We just spent three months crossing 11 states and ever one has their share of teeth rattling roads.

HI, Thanks for your reply and comments.  Do you have the new Koni FSD or older version?  Here is the link we were reviewing as a possible improvement http://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Products/Motorhome/FSD/
I will keep this post updated on our hopeful progress.
Thanks and safe travels!

29

General Discussion / Re: 2019 E450 2350 Rough Ride

« on: July 26, 2019, 06:46:31 pm »

Hi Rob , although I/we don't have a Phoenix , we have a winnie Trend that maxes out around 10,000# . It rode like a lumber wagon we first got it ! Handled nice and good road manners and mileage is good. I put air bags on rear and day night difference along with supersprings on front coils ..even better, don't get blown around in wind or being passed and minimal slamming . As for the airbags, that has been being discussed as "stiffening or hardening " the ride , many found out that adjusting pressure mostly cured the hard ride . I started out around 75-80# and over several days toned it down to around 45-55#  for max control and comfort, not Cadilac but much more tolerable .    I still get the bang over risers in the road but much less so .The front supersprings took most of the bang out too and less rolling too. Just my .02 cents and hope you get it dialed in to a pleasurable level ! Like insurance , you'll get it where you want it and almost never get a rough road again !!

Thanks for comments, very helpful.  The rear heavy duty (Air Ride) air bags will not support the 15k lb weight of the rear until 90 lbs is added.  The max is 100 so unfortunately not much play there.  I will keep the post updated as we continue our discovery.  Thanks again for comments and safe travels!

30

General Discussion / Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350

« on: July 26, 2019, 03:41:15 pm »

The road going thru oil country in Texas was pure hell. If I recall it’s the 285. If I had known of it being oil country I would have avoided like the plague.  The roads in Ohio have been no picnic either. I don’t think any state is exempt .

In my opinion I made a bad choice in the koni shocks. I don’t know what the answer is but it damn sure isn’t  Koni to address a rough ride. My rear end is like riding a rigid frame bike.


This aside back to Ron’s issue. Wouldn’t the sag issue be addressed by rear air bags? I don’t know if they are available or cost prohibitive, just throwing out a thought.

Hi, Did you install the Koni FSD shocks? We are researching them as an option for our similar problem.  We have a new E450 2019 PC 2350, we have the Air Ride in the rear.  The E450 is a terrible ride over any bump  I just created a new post today with more details.
Thanks
Rob