Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: sajohnson on October 29, 2011, 11:09:29 pm
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Hello!
Ron Dittmer suggested I post here, I hope this is ok. I saw the 'for sale' forum but thought this forum might be better since that one would attract mostly potential buyers.
I'm interested in buying a late model 2350 with a dinette. I haven't made up my mind about which chassis, a lot depends on the price difference. I saw that PC charges $12k additional for the Sprinter chassis. The Sprinter is nice, but we can't justify paying that much more for it.
I'd like to get the Macerator (sp?) pump. When did PC start offering it? Was it 2006?
In any case, Ron said that someone here on the PC forum was considering trading in a 2350 with a dinette. If you aren't already locked into a deal and you're open to selling to an individual, let me know.
Thanks!
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I am trading in a 2010 PC 2350 in the very near future. My PC has the sofa/air bed not the dinnette. Ron sent me a private message that I responed to. As I told him, I am locked into this deal as it is a very good deal. 2o2
I wish you luck in finding a PC you like.
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I am trading in a 2010 PC 2350 in the very near future. My PC has the sofa/air bed not the dinnette. Ron sent me a private message that I responed to. As I told him, I am locked into this deal as it is a very good deal. 2o2
I wish you luck in finding a PC you like.
Thanks Tom!
I've been looking but it seems that the 2350 w/dinette is hard to find. I've found several 2350s for sale, but they all have the couch.
BTW, is there much of a difference between the sofa bed and the dinette bed in size and/or comfort?
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Over the years Phoenix has change the sofa/bed. Several years ago they used a jack knife sofa, then they went to the Air bed/sofa in 2010 and for 2012 they have a electric memory foam sofa. I have not tried to sleep on the new sofa yet. Each changes seems to have been for the better but none are as good as a real mattress. The air bed was pretty bad until we change the mattress to a better Areo bed mattress.
The dinette in the slide out is just too small for anyone except a small child. In the non-slide model the dinette is larger but still pretty small. The mattress part is the cushions that form the seats and the back. Ron has the non-slide dinette and seems to like it. I bet he will jump in here soon.
I used to sell RVs for about four years after I retired and before the market died. I never found a sofa that I felt was that comfortable and the dinettes where a PITA, IMO.
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We had a 2008 2350 on a Ford 350 chassis with a slide and sofa and loved it. The Ford chassis has 1,470 pounds more of cargo capability and 5,250 more pounds of towing capability. Also, my understanding is the maintenance on the Sprinter chassis is higher especially the oil and filter changes. This is something you might want to confirm.
One of the modifications we made to our 2350 was replace the barrel chair with additional storage cabinets (See attached picture). Another thing we did was add a portable storage box behind the driver's.
(http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=158.0;attach=937;image)
(http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=158.0;attach=938;image)
(http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=158.0;attach=939;image)
The sofa offered comfortable seating and adequate sleeping comfort. To improve the sleep comfort we used a memory foam pad from target. I personally find the dinette seat backs to be too straight and become uncomfortable after awhile. Also, depending on the model year there were different sofas. The sofa we had was the electric sofa that was in three sections when you opened it up. The new models have a memory foam lounger that look very nice but I do not know how comfortable a bed would be. You need to try the different configurations. Try before you buy.
A new PC may not be as expensive as you might think. A call to Phoenix may get you a new PC with all the options you want, never hurts to ask. They are a great company to work with.
If you have an questions let me know.
Barry
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Over the years Phoenix has change the sofa/bed. Several years ago they used a jack knife sofa, then they went to the Air bed/sofa in 2010 and for 2012 they have a electric memory foam sofa. I have not tried to sleep on the new sofa yet. Each changes seems to have been for the better but none are as good as a real mattress. The air bed was pretty bad until we change the mattress to a better Areo bed mattress.
The dinette in the slide out is just too small for anyone except a small child. In the non-slide model the dinette is larger but still pretty small. The mattress part is the cushions that form the seats and the back. Ron has the non-slide dinette and seems to like it. I bet he will jump in here soon.
I used to sell RVs for about four years after I retired and before the market died. I never found a sofa that I felt was that comfortable and the dinettes where a PITA, IMO.
Thanks Tom!
Is there someplace I can find all of the floor plans and specs for the 2350? I've checked the Phoenix website but could only find info on current models. There seem to be relatively few RV mfrs that make brochures for previous model years available, I wonder why that is?
In any case, having all of the floor plans and dimensions together in one place would make things a lot easier. For example, your comments about the dinette beds have got me wondering about the difference in size between the slide & fixed dinette beds.
Also, why do you say the dinettes were a PITA? Are you referring to setting up & tearing down the bed?
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We had a 2008 2350 on a Ford 350 chassis with a slide and sofa and loved it. The Ford chassis has 1,470 pounds more of cargo capability and 5,250 more pounds of towing capability. Also, my understanding is the maintenance on the Sprinter chassis is higher especially the oil and filter changes. This is something you might want to confirm.
One of the modifications we made to our 2350 was replace the barrel chair with additional storage cabinets (See attached picture). Another thing we did was add a portable storage box behind the driver's.
(http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=158.0;attach=937;image)
(http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=158.0;attach=938;image)
(http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=158.0;attach=939;image)
The sofa offered comfortable seating and adequate sleeping comfort. To improve the sleep comfort we used a memory foam pad from target. I personally find the dinette seat backs to be too straight and become uncomfortable after awhile. Also, depending on the model year there were different sofas. The sofa we had was the electric sofa that was in three sections when you opened it up. The new models have a memory foam lounger that look very nice but I do not know how comfortable a bed would be. You need to try the different configurations. Try before you buy.
A new PC may not be as expensive as you might think. A call to Phoenix may get you a new PC with all the options you want, never hurts to ask. They are a great company to work with.
If you have an questions let me know.
Barry
Hi Barry,
Those look like great mods to me! I would likely do the same.
Your comments about the E350 vs the Sprinter are exactly right. The E350 clearly has it's advantages, as does the Sprinter. I know opinions about the two are all over the map. A person focused primarily on fuel efficiency would likely go for the Sprinter. Someone concerned with GVWR and/or towing would probably buy the Ford. In my reading on the View/Navion group I've found that some people are very concerned with 'image' -- if they have a Freightliner or Dodge-badged Sprinter they will pay hundreds of dollars to get the Mercedes badging. On and on...
My sense of things is that the Ford sways less but the Sprinter has a quieter, smoother ride.
Parts & labor are clearly more for the Sprinter, and it sounds like they may not be particularly 'do-it-yourself' maintenance friendly. That said, they seem to be very reliable, so if they rarely break down the cost of repairs is less of an issue.
The Sprinter has enough OCCC for my wife and I, and from what I've read I can reduce the sway significantly with Bilstein shocks. I like the idea of getting significantly better mileage, but to us, that and the other benefits of the Sprinter aren't worth the current $12,000 up charge (if we were to buy new). I have to decide how much extra the Sprinter is worth to us (in case we are faced with that choice).
You mentioned that you used a memory foam pad. We have a memory foam bed here at home that we like a lot. We might replace the corner bed mattress with memory foam, and we considered using a memory foam topper for the dinette bed. Question -- where did you store the foam pad when the dinette was set up?
Thanks!
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We had the sofa in our 2008 2350 not a dinette and stored the memory foam in several places, behind the sofa, in the car trunk and in the outside storage bin.
For the last 4 or 5 years there has been little or no change in the inside size of the 2350. In 2008 I think the outside storage area was increased and the slide started to include the frig in 2010. Your best bet would be a call to the factory and see if they have and dimensional differences between the Sprinter chassis and the Ford chassis.
I did forget to mention earlier that the track of the Sprinter is also small than the Ford.
Barry
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For the record, our dinette is NOT in a slide-out, making it much larger than otherwise. I am 5'-11" tall and 180 pounds. I have slept on the dinette 3 consecutive nights when I got sick on one trip I find the dinette bed to be very comfortable and roomy for a single person of my size and weight. Length, leg room, elbow room, all worked fine for me. The 4 cushions make a comfortable mattress as well.
CLICK HERE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/albums/72157682846402944) to see many pictures of our model 2350 no-slide dinette. I believe the configuration will be the same for model 2551.
Model 2552 has many more configurations available because of the extra linear wall space. With NO slide-out, you can get an even bigger dinette or a pantry with a dinette like ours. With a slide-out, you can have either a dinette or a couch-with-pantry.
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For the record, our dinette is NOT in a slideout, making it much larger than otherwise. I am 5'-11" tall and 180 pounds. I have slept on the dinette 3 consecutive nights when I got sick on one trip I find the dinette bed to be very comfortable and roomy for a single person of my size and weight. Length, leg room, elbow room, all worked fine for me. The 4 cushions make a comfortable matress as well.
Thanks Ron, that's good to know. Ideally, the dinette bed would be big enough for me (6'2", 230 lbs), but unless I can get the floor plans and measurements I guess I'll just have to try and find one locally and check it out.
At least I know it's plenty big enough for DW, if we decide that climbing over each other in the corner bed isn't working.
I recall you saying that you and DW aren't crazy about the corner bed due to having to climb over each other. Have you or DW considered sleeping in the dinette bed on a regular basis?
BTW, what type of mattress does Phoenix use for the corner bed -- inner spring or foam? How would you rate its comfort?
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Ideally, the dinette bed would be big enough for me (6'2", 230 lbs), but unless I can get the floor plans and measurements I guess I'll just have to try and find one locally and check it out.
At least I know it's plenty big enough for DW, if we decide that climbing over each other in the corner bed isn't working.
BTW, what type of mattress does Phoenix use for the corner bed -- inner spring or foam? How would you rate its comfort?
SA, you have not filled out your profile yet so we don't know what is local for you. Therefore can not help you with that.
Phoenix uses an inner spring mattress on the beds. The new 2012 models have a form sofa/bed.
When I said that the dinettes were a pita, I was referring to having to sleep on cushion designed for sitting on and all the cracks between the cushions. If I had to sleep on a dinette I would have to get a form pad to lay over the cushions.
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Ideally, the dinette bed would be big enough for me (6'2", 230 lbs), but unless I can get the floor plans and measurements I guess I'll just have to try and find one locally and check it out.
I recall you saying that you and DW aren't crazy about the corner bed due to having to climb over each other. Have you or DW considered sleeping in the dinette bed on a regular basis?
BTW, what type of mattress does Phoenix use for the corner bed -- inner spring or foam? How would you rate its comfort?
Our dinette would not allow a 6'-2" fellow to stretch out. Actually I would be concerned the general ceiling height of any PC would be of concern. You will be hitting your head on the a/c and lights that hang from the ceiling. PCs are all made with the same ceiling height, regardless of model and options. You really need to walk through one before considering any such purchase. Oh, at 6'-2" your feet will overhang the 2350 bed by a lot too. I hate to say it, but I think any PC might need ruling out because of your height. Maybe you will want to post a new question. Any 6'-2" tall PC owners out there?
The specs of the 2350 is the same over the years from 2005 to today, likely the same goes for any other model. So you could read today's specs and know what a 2005 measures.
The matress in our 2007 2350, I swear is 100% foam.
No way would one of us sleep on the dinette on a regular basis. We have too many cudling requirements.
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My Pal is 6'4" and he had a 2552 custom built for him having an 80" bed on the Driver's side. The Passenger side has the standard 73" bed for his wife. He does have to be careful when walking because of the overhead but he's accustomed to it now and doesn't bump his head. PC is really, really good at accommodating a customer needing customization.
I, like Dittmer, don't think you're going to find an older PC that will be comfortable for you.
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Ideally, the dinette bed would be big enough for me (6'2", 230 lbs), but unless I can get the floor plans and measurements I guess I'll just have to try and find one locally and check it out.
At least I know it's plenty big enough for DW, if we decide that climbing over each other in the corner bed isn't working.
BTW, what type of mattress does Phoenix use for the corner bed -- inner spring or foam? How would you rate its comfort?
SA, you have not filled out your profile yet so we don't know what is local for you. Therefore can not help you with that.
Phoenix uses an inner spring mattress on the beds. The new 2012 models have a form sofa/bed.
When I said that the dinettes were a pita, I was referring to having to sleep on cushion designed for sitting on and all the cracks between the cushions. If I had to sleep on a dinette I would have to get a form pad to lay over the cushions.
Thanks for the reminder about the profile Tom. I went ahead and put some info in there. We're in central MD, Frederick County.
Like so much else about RVs, it seems the comfort of the dinette bed is subjective. It sounds like if DW and I can't deal with the climbing over involved with the corner bed, she would have to sleep in the dinette bed since I'm too tall. We'll just have to check one out for ourselves to see if it's comfortable for her as-is, or if we need to add a memory foam pad.
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Ideally, the dinette bed would be big enough for me (6'2", 230 lbs), but unless I can get the floor plans and measurements I guess I'll just have to try and find one locally and check it out.
I recall you saying that you and DW aren't crazy about the corner bed due to having to climb over each other. Have you or DW considered sleeping in the dinette bed on a regular basis?
BTW, what type of mattress does Phoenix use for the corner bed -- inner spring or foam? How would you rate its comfort?
Our dinette would not allow a 6'-2" fellow to stretch out. Actually I would be concerned the general ceiling height of any PC would be of concern. You will be hitting your head on the a/c and lights that hang from the ceiling. PCs are all made with the same ceiling height, regardless of model and options. You really need to walk through one before considering any such purchase. Oh, at 6'-2" your feet will overhang the 2350 bed by a lot too. I hate to say it, but I think any PC might need ruling out because of your height. Maybe you will want to post a new question. Any 6'-2" tall PC owners out there?
The specs of the 2350 is the same over the years from 2005 to today, likely the same goes for any other model. So you could read today's specs and know what a 2005 measures.
The matress in our 2007 2350, I swear is 100% foam.
No way would one of us sleep on the dinette on a regular basis. We have too many cudling requirements.
Hi Ron,
I didn't realize the ceiling height of the PC was so low. That's too bad. 6'2" isn't exactly freakishly tall. We live in a 120 year old log cabin and I can't stand up on the second floor without hitting my head on the exposed floor joists, so I'm used to ducking but it would be nice to be able to stand up in whatever RV we purchase. I could deal with avoiding a few obstacles I suppose.
The PC pamphlet that I picked up at the Hershey RV show indicates that the corner bed is 50"x76". Is that true? If so, that should be adequate room.
I'm not anxious for DW to sleep on the dinette bed, but I'd like to have a plan B if the corner bed doesn't work out.
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My Pal is 6'4" and he had a 2552 custom built for him having an 80" bed on the Driver's side. The Passenger side has the standard 73" bed for his wife. He does have to be careful when walking because of the overhead but he's accustomed to it now and doesn't bump his head. PC is really, really good at accommodating a customer needing customization.
I, like Dittmer, don't think you're going to find an older PC that will be comfortable for you.
Well that's discouraging. I hope it's not true. We'll just have to find a 2350 locally to check out.
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"If only PC made a 2350 on a Ford E350 diesel chassis..."
I don't think that Ford makes an E350 with a diesel in it. It would be very noisy in the cab. Their Pickups with the diesel are some what noisy.
SA, We live in western Howard county, not that far from you, i bet. If you are interested in seeing my 2350 before I trade it in at the end of next week or just want to talk about PCs, sent me a private message with a phone number I can reach you at.
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Take a look at what this couple did. http://phoenixusarv.com/albums/2551_models/index10.html Look for the captioned "special double sofa" Instead of twin beds in the rear, they did facing sofas, which fold out into beds that touch. One sofa is considerably longer than the other. Kind of the best of both worlds, maybe?
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Back in the 90's we had a Chinook motorhome. It had a dinette on one side and a jack knife sofa on the other. When you put them down they made a bed that went from side to side, much like this layout. It turned out to be hard to get into bed and even harder for the person in the front to get to the bathroom. After awhile I stopped opening the sofa and just slept on the seat. It was good practice for when I got in the dog house at home. roflol I don't think I would get any layout that stopped us from walking back to the bathroom at night. As we get older we tend to use the bathroom more in the middle of the night. Just my thinking but not right for everyone.
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[quote author=TomHanlon link=topic=696.msg4782#msg4782 date=132034792l I don't think I would get any layout that stopped us from walking back to the bathroom at night. As we get older we tend to use the bathroom more in the middle of the night. Just my thinking but not right for everyone.
[/quote]
AMEN, BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I'm still confused about the comments regarding my height (6'2") -- that I will not be able to find a PC that is comfortable.
The PC brochure I have says the corner bed is 76"x50" and the height (in all models) is 6'4".
6'4" is a bit shorter than most class B+/C rigs, but still 2" of headroom.
76" is actually 1 or 2" longer than the beds in most RVs.
What am I missing?
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The advertised inside height, as can be expected, is floor to the ceiling - but the AC takes about 2" so from the height in that particular spot (believe me when I say you'll get used to that).
The rear bed dimension is really governed by the distance between bulkheads. But if you don't mind your feet hanging off into the aisle a bit (like mine did), you'll be OK. Of course you can sleep across the bed to get more room but it would pretty much rule out 2 sleeping in the same bed.
If you get a 2350 with sofabed in a slide, the bed folds out with just enough room for 2. However, as I move around a lot when sleeping, Peg slept on the sofabed, which required daily setup/takedown and a mattress topper for comfort (all a pita).
Our 2007 2350 was a great unit but we didn't want the hassle of making the corner and sofabed up every day.
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S.A.J.:
I know you want to keep your potential coach as short as you can but I really think you should be looking at the 2552s that will give you 12" of "play room" with the bed lay out. My wife likes to use to many pillows and it made the 68" single bed to short for her (she is 5'8") so she uses the 74" bed and does fine. I am seriously looking at going from the 2551 to the 2552S for a variety of reasons but primarily so that I can get two beds that are atleast 74" long. I have checked with Stuart at PC and he said "yes" it can be done with out much trouble and he has atleast 12" to play with, I am sure they would cut into the pantry in the slide or the towel closet in the bathroom. As I know you have seen my posts on other forums I am not a big fan of the Sprinter chassis. A PC on a Sprinter may handle great because the PC's is lower overall but I am telling you my 10' 2" 2009 Monaco Covina (you appear to need the extra cieling clearance inside because of your size) on a Sprinter with its narrow track was very dangerous with the stock suspension and nearly over weight before adding any supplies. The Covina was engineered very well in that the center of gravity was reduced so much I could not get under the coach because of lack of clearance. I would sure prefer to have a chassis that was not even close to max load (Ford E-450) vs's a chassis that was nearly over loaded before adding any supplies or people. In a panic situation a fully loaded chassis does not handle like a 1/2 loaded chassis and safety must be your first priority. Thanks
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S.A.J.:
I know you want to keep your potential coach as short as you can but I really think you should be looking at the 2552s that will give you 12" of "play room" with the bed lay out. My wife likes to use to many pillows and it made the 68" single bed to short for her (she is 5'8") so she uses the 74" bed and does fine. I am seriously looking at going from the 2551 to the 2552S for a variety of reasons but primarily so that I can get two beds that are atleast 74" long. I have checked with Stuart at PC and he said "yes" it can be done with out much trouble and he has atleast 12" to play with, I am sure they would cut into the pantry in the slide or the towel closet in the bathroom. As I know you have seen my posts on other forums I am not a big fan of the Sprinter chassis. A PC on a Sprinter may handle great because the PC's is lower overall but I am telling you my 10' 2" 2009 Monaco Covina (you appear to need the extra cieling clearance inside because of your size) on a Sprinter with its narrow track was very dangerous with the stock suspension and nearly over weight before adding any supplies. The Covina was engineered very well in that the center of gravity was reduced so much I could not get under the coach because of lack of clearance. I would sure prefer to have a chassis that was not even close to max load (Ford E-450) vs's a chassis that was nearly over loaded before adding any supplies or people. In a panic situation a fully loaded chassis does not handle like a 1/2 loaded chassis and safety must be your first priority. Thanks
All good points. I understand what you're saying about too many pillows eating up valuable bed real estate. If there is truly 76" between bulkheads then I'll be ok.
I really do want a rig that is as short as possible while still serving our needs. <25' is good, <24' is even better. Not sure about the 2552, but the 2551 is 26'5" long. I know that's only a couple feet longer than our limit (and about 3 feet longer than a 2350), but we originally started out looking at class B RVs, so anything over ~22' seems long. The shorter the coach is, the more maneuverable it is, and the less likely it is to drag the rear end. One concern is just getting it into our garage. We are on the side of a mountain and have a very limited amount of room in front of the garage.
I continue to go back and forth between the Ford and Sprinter chassis. If they were the same price I'd go for the Sprinter. DW and I don't need the cargo capacity of the Ford E350, but it would be nice to have the extra cushion. Of course it's important not to overload a chassis, but if they are lightly loaded many chassis ride very rough. A properly designed RV on any chassis should have adequate OCCC, but I have heard of some that are easily overloaded. The PC specs give GVWR but not the weight of the rig itself so there's no way to determine OCCC. One thing's for sure though, the E350 has almost 1,500 lbs more capacity than the Sprinter.
I've heard a lot about the narrower track of the Sprinter. All else being equal, it stands to reason that the Ford chassis would be more stable. That said, if the Sprinter-based RVs were truly dangerous, I'd think we'd hear a lot of stories about wrecks, roll-overs, recalls, and eventually RVs would no longer be built on the Sprinter chassis. That doesn't seem to be the case.
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S.A.J.:
I am not sure that all members of the RV industry abide by a "check and balance" system that would throw any flags that something may of may not be safe for the consumer. Over the years there have been many chassis's used with in the RV indsutry that did not perform well..Renault and VW come to mind immediately and how about the auto industry with Corvairs, Explorers, and Pintos to name just a few, none of those manfacturers came out and told consumers to not buy those cars when they new there were issues way before anything was in fact said. I am not saying the Sprinter chassis will become a "cast out" becasue it was un safe but I do think it is interesting how M-B keeps a very tight lid on what the RV industry can and can not do with their chassis's and I do think that would lead one to draw the conclusion that there are concerns about how the chassis performs when fully loaded, and in most cases in the world of RV's overloaded. I would simply call Kermit Fisher or better yet Kyle Fisher his son who delivers PC coaches all over the country and get his opinion on the comparison between the Ford and Sprinter chassis's. You owe it to yourself to drive both chassis's and draw your on opinions. Having had 6 new coaches I can tell you not one of them was perfect, not one of them was without issues, and two of them (Monaco Class A's) had rear trailing arms that would break completely off and of course you would have no control over the coach, Monaco's quality control at it best. Again, I am very impressed with how PC has evenly distributed the weight of their coaches both front to rear and side to side and placing the coach on a Ford E-450 with a CCC of over a ton after being fully loaded is what you want when you are doing 68 MPH and some pulls in front of you. Just my two cents. Thanks
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S.A.J.:
I am not sure that all members of the RV industry abide by a "check and balance" system that would throw any flags that something may of may not be safe for the consumer. Over the years there have been many chassis's used with in the RV indsutry that did not perform well..Renault and VW come to mind immediately and how about the auto industry with Corvairs, Explorers, and Pintos to name just a few, none of those manfacturers came out and told consumers to not buy those cars when they new there were issues way before anything was in fact said. I am not saying the Sprinter chassis will become a "cast out" becasue it was un safe but I do think it is interesting how M-B keeps a very tight lid on what the RV industry can and can not do with their chassis's and I do think that would lead one to draw the conclusion that there are concerns about how the chassis performs when fully loaded, and in most cases in the world of RV's overloaded. I would simply call Kermit Fisher or better yet Kyle Fisher his son who delivers PC coaches all over the country and get his opinion on the comparison between the Ford and Sprinter chassis's. You owe it to yourself to drive both chassis's and draw your on opinions. Having had 6 new coaches I can tell you not one of them was perfect, not one of them was without issues, and two of them (Monaco Class A's) had rear trailing arms that would break completely off and of course you would have no control over the coach, Monaco's quality control at it best. Again, I am very impressed with how PC has evenly distributed the weight of their coaches both front to rear and side to side and placing the coach on a Ford E-450 with a CCC of over a ton after being fully loaded is what you want when you are doing 68 MPH and some pulls in front of you. Just my two cents. Thanks
I wouldn't necessarily expect the RV mfrs to advertise the fact that a particular model/chassis is unsafe. What I meant was that (as with the Corvair, Pinto, and Explorer you mentioned) if there were an unusual number of accidents we would hear about it.
I seriously doubt that MB would allow any RV mfr to do anything unsafe with their chassis because it would harm their reputation and hurt sales if they were rolling over left and right.
Regarding overloaded chassis, one thought that comes to mind is that some chassis mfrs may be more conservative that others when determining the GVWR. I don't know that is the case, I'm saying it's possible. It's possible that Ford or Mercedes has more of a safety cushion built in. Another factor are electronic 'nannies' -- ABS, ESC, traction control, load sensing, etc. It's possible that a chassis with a lower GVWR and ESC, etc, might perform as well or better when fully loaded than a chassis with a higher GVWR, partially loaded, but without ESC.
As I've said, I think both Ford and MB have their strong points but in order to really determine which one is 'better', we would need independent objective testing (like CR does with cars). Without objective testing and data it's just an endless stream of subjective opinions. In my reading I have come across many intelligent, knowledgeable people on both sides of the Ford v. Sprinter debate. They all make good points and it isn't clear to me that one is obviously better than the other.
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In my reading I have come across many intelligent, knowledgeable people on both sides of the Ford v. Sprinter debate. They all make good points and it isn't clear to me that one is obviously better than the other.
DITTO
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Hey I just saw this on ebay. Good reference material with good pictures.
Naples Florida
2006 2551
25,000 miles
Always Garaged when not in use
$39,900 with a "Make Offer" feature
I don't think it has 2 batteries with inverter.
The only thing I would likely change is replacing the tiny little dinette in the slideout with a couch or something else.
This is a fine example of how small the dinette in a slideout really is.
CLICK HERE to see it on eBay. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130601255929&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTYwWDEyODA=/$(KGrHqR,!hQE6ZjVZPrkBOwFb8kH5g~~60_12.JPG)
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Hey sajohnson,
I Found A Short PC With Dinette-NO-Slideout Near You. Read On.
Here is a very low priced 2000 Phoenix Cruiser in Greenbelt MD, maybe close to where you live. Back then it was not called a 2350, but has a very similar floorplan, the biggest floorplan difference being the bathroom. The bright side is the rear corner bed seems to have better access. One interesting point is that the Ford roof was not cut. This means the front cab is a little harder to enter in from the rear, but is very safe in a roll-over crash. Also you have more front over-head storage.
Dinette with NO slideout
PC Model Year 2000
Ford-V10 Chassis Year 1999
78,500 Miles
Recent Tires
Current bid on Ebay is $9,900 with auction ending in 26 hours.
The differences that I can quickly see between this 2000 and my 2007 are as follows.
- no rear cap with LED lighting and integrated tire storage, rather a rear wall with seams in the corners
- smaller outdoor storage
- main entry door does not have the better sealing door with multi-pivoting hinges farther apart
- single coach battery with NO inverter
- no sanicon system, rather a straight forward conventional sewage dumping system
- a wet bath, meaning you take a shower in the entire bathroom
- formica counters instead of corian
- no flat panel TV, the cabinetry is made for an older type CRT TV
- stove is not flush mounted with covers, which I appreciate when doing dishes
If you get this one for $10k to $15k, all the differences could easiliy be overlooked.
Click Here To See It On Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2000-Phoenix-Cruiser-1999-Ford-E350-chassis-/160677070770?pt=RVs_Campers&hash=item25691987b2#v4-46)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqMOKiME6YN!u4t6BOng!n)Vqw~~60_3.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqV,!jkE6E5LbbSYBOngC,pfUQ~~60_3.JPG)
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sajohnson,
Did you buy it? It sold for only $11,100.
Ron
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Hey sajohnson,
That 2000 PC is back on ebay. Apparently the winng bidder backed out of the deal. The seller has it up on auction again this time with a buy-it-now for $12,000. I would go check it out in person and if I liked it, I would offer $11,000 on the side, without ebay involvement. He could then end the sale on ebay and sell it outright to you without ebay fees.
That rig is in your general area, right?
Click Here To See It On Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160684800721&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123)
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Hey sajohnson,
That 2000 PC is back on ebay. Apparently the winng bidder backed out of the deal. The seller has it up on auction again this time with a buy-it-now for $12,000. I would go check it out in person and if I liked it, I would offer $11,000 on the side, without ebay involvement. He could then end the sale on ebay and sell it outright to you without ebay fees.
That rig is in your general area, right?
Click Here To See It On Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160684800721&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123)
File this one under better late than never...
Sorry Ron, I didn't see this, or did and forgot to reply. I appreciate you looking out for DW and I. Intellectually I know it probably makes more sense to buy a 2000 PC gasser for $11-$12K than it does to buy a newer Sprinter-based PC 2350, but I think we're going to stick with a relatively new rig.
We're still looking -- I'll continue in another post.
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If I haven't said so already, a big thank you to Tom Hanlon for showing us his beautiful 2350 before he traded it in. I would have no problem buying any rig he owned.
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OK, I'm back. ;)
DW and I are still looking for the RV that's as close to perfect as possible. Where we're at:
We really do not care for the cab-over look, but slick as they are the WGO View Profile/Navion iQ are out for several reasons, including: tiny joke of a galley sink; single door fridge; cheap two burner stove; and the rear slide which would interfere with our plans to carry an Enduro motorcycle on a hitch mounted carrier.
That means we are still considering the Sprinter-based PC 2350, and we are also looking at the THOR sisters -- Citation, Siesta, and Dorado Sprinter. The THOR rigs leave a few things to be desired, but they do have some good features -- what appears to be a nice U-shaped dinette, and a cab-over bunk (which we don't need but it seems more versatile than cabinets and/or an ent. center).
Anyway...I read through this thread again to refresh my memory and it seems like the primary concern was that my height might be a problem. I don't recall having any trouble when checking out Tom Hanlon's 2350, but it was a bit tight.
Ron said that at 5'11" and 180 he was comfortable in the dinette bed in his 2350 rig with no slide , but that at 6'2" I would not be. I'm curious as to what the actual dimensions of the dinette bed are. I couldn't find that info on PC's website.
Also, what are the cabinets and cabinet doors made from (solid wood, plywood, particle board)?
I seem to recall being able to stand up in the Shower in Tom's 2350, but I'd like to have the dimensions of the shower.
Other than the addition of the side slide (with the smaller dinette) are there any other differences from year to year between the Sprinter-based 2350s?
What year did PC first start offering the Sprinter chassis?
What is the "1/4" plastic fluted sheet underbelly" that PC refers to in their brochure?
What are some options that are worth looking for? I was thinking about the: passenger swivel seat; leather; fantastic vent; insulated glass; back-up monitor; leveling jacks (weight may be an issue though); mirror w/ compass and outside temp; diesel generator. Any suggestions/thoughts?
I know diesel gensets can be louder than LP fueled ones, and they can be smelly. The reason I'm considering one is to conserve LP. Even with a larger LP tank it is an issue, and the PC rigs have relatively small 42 lb LP tanks.
Well, that should be enough for now...
Thanks.
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Given my unit is now 5 years old, I cannot address many of your questions without potential inaccuracies. Hopefully someone with a 2012 Sprinter will chime in.
PC-USA introduced the Sprinter chassis in the 2009 model year.
In 2008-2009 when motor home manufactures were going bankrupt in droves, Phoenix bought up may 2008 Sprinter chassis at RV bankruptcy auctions. The company then offered Sprinter PCs for the same price as their Ford versions. It helped the company survive through a very difficult time in our economy, and it gave PC-Sprinter owners an exceptional value. Everybody came out a winner.
So if you consider purchasing a 2009 or 2010 Sprinter based PC-2350 or PC-2400, chances are it has a 2008 Sprinter chassis.
The plastic fluted underbelly is "Fantastic". Every motor home manufacture should have it. That thick bonded-to-the-floor corregated plastic sheet protects the flooring from the elements, along with adding a little extra thermal protection in winter. Somebody on the web actually put it down as some sort of cheap construction method. Obviously he had no idea what he is talking about.
I like your ideas on options and features. We got the same (though a gas generator) and highly recommend you consider them.
A couple things I would consider deleting.
- Leave off the rear ladder and roof rack (a very personal preference) others will argue otherwise. I required they give it to me in pieces so if I change my mind later, I have everything I need. So far no regrets.
- Forget the Winegard antenna as I find it useless where needed most, outside of towns. If near a city, the digital signal is too touchy with lots of sound cut-out and pixelation. It works inside a city where you are forced to stay in RV parks which all have CATV. So we never use the antenna. Then adding that it puts so many holes into the front B+ aero-cap wiith lots of ugly caulk, and it likes to rattle when in transit. It's just a bad thing to have since the country went "digital". I wish I knew better, and refused it in 2007 when analog was still in-place. I would pay PC-USA to keep it next time, if there was a next time.
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We had a 2010 PC 2350 Sprinter and loved it but felt that we needed a larger rig with twin beds so we traded it in on a 2011 PC 2551.
I need to disagree with Ron on a couple of his suggestions:
We ordered the Sprinter without the ladder. Yes, it makes the rear of the Coach look cleaner; however, on our 2551, we had the ladder and roof rack installed and are VERY glad we did. On the way home to Florida from Virginia in September, a screw on the roof vent fell off and the vent cover came up (at 65 MPH on RT. 81). We pulled off and I climbed up onto the roof of the motorhome, pushed the vent cover back down and we returned the screw to the vent. If we didn't have the ladder on the back, that would not have been fixed in a timely manner and we may have lost the cover.
We use the Winegard antenna all the time. The newer antennas are equipped with a booster so the t.v comes in very clear. We find no rattling of the antenna when underway and do not find the signal touchy. Remember, not all RV parks (even near cities) have cable. We frequently stay at a Corps of Engineers Park near Ft. Myers and use the antenna to pick up Ft. Myers stations.
The only option that you list that we would not want is the mirror with compass and outside temp. We are very happy with the Sony monitor with an 8" extension. It puts the monitor where your rearview mirror should be. You are right on with all the other options.
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I need to disagree with Ron on a couple of his suggestions:
.......we had the ladder and roof rack installed and are VERY glad we did.
.......We frequently stay at a Corps of Engineers Park near Ft. Myers and use the antenna to pick up Ft. Myers stations.
And there you have your different opinions.
About the antenna, we too have the booster yet have very limited use. I suppose a lot depends on the types of places travelled to. We do stay most often in the mountains and canyons where line-of-sight is dramatically disrupted, then the antenna isn't going to work. Analog signals found their way around such obstacles much better. And we could deal with a little snow on the screen much better than the sound cutting in and out with digital. In Florida the only obstruction would be something man-made which is much more forgiving. Admittedly, we very rarely camp under those types of conditions.
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sajohnson
We have the passenger swivel seat (in leather) and it is great. We also have the driver seat swivel and have used it many times during our 3 month stay in FL.
We had a MaxxFan (6200K model) installed in place of the fantastic fan in the bedroom area and wish we had also put one in the living area instead of the fantastic fan. The MaxxFan has many nice features and is much quieter than the fantastic fan.
The leveling jacks are wonderful, you won't regret that decision.
We also did not have any carpet installed except in the cab area.
We also use the TV antenna Winegard all of the time and never have had a problem. We do not hear it bounce on the roof and it also has the digital booster. We have been in remote areas, outside city limits and in metropolitan areas and have never experienced a problem.
The POWER Awning is another wonderful feature.
Good Luck in your search.
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Given my unit is now 5 years old, I cannot address many of your questions without potential inaccuracies. Hopefully someone with a 2012 Sprinter will chime in.
PC-USA introduced the Sprinter chassis in the 2009 model year.
In 2008-2009 when motor home manufactures were going bankrupt in droves, Phoenix bought up may 2008 Sprinter chassis at RV bankruptcy auctions. The company then offered Sprinter PCs for the same price as their Ford versions. It helped the company survive through a very difficult time in our economy, and it gave PC-Sprinter owners an exceptional value. Everybody came out a winner.
So if you consider purchasing a 2009 or 2010 Sprinter based PC-2350 or PC-2400, chances are it has a 2008 Sprinter chassis.
The plastic fluted underbelly is "Fantastic". Every motor home manufacture should have it. That thick bonded-to-the-floor corregated plastic sheet protects the flooring from the elements, along with adding a little extra thermal protection in winter. Somebody on the web actually put it down as some sort of cheap construction method. Obviously he had no idea what he is talking about.
I like your ideas on options and features. We got the same (though a gas generator) and highly recommend you consider them.
A couple things I would consider deleting.
- Leave off the rear ladder and roof rack (a very personal preference) others will argue otherwise. I required they give it to me in pieces so if I change my mind later, I have everything I need. So far no regrets.
- Forget the Winegard antenna as I find it useless where needed most, outside of towns. If near a city, the digital signal is too touchy with lots of sound cut-out and pixelation. It works inside a city where you are forced to stay in RV parks which all have CATV. So we never use the antenna. Then adding that it puts so many holes into the front B+ aero-cap wiith lots of ugly caulk, and it likes to rattle when in transit. It's just a bad thing to have since the country went "digital". I wish I knew better, and refused it in 2007 when analog was still in-place. I would pay PC-USA to keep it next time, if there was a next time.
Hey Ron, good to hear from you again!
I was completely unaware of the history behind the Sprinter-based PC 2350 and 2400. I wish I'd been in the market back then. A diesel Sprinter for the price of a Ford gasser would have been hard to pass up (for us anyway, I realize others have different needs and priorities).
The plastic 'under-belly' is what I thought then, that's good to know. The only concern I can think of is if the plastic were to get damaged then it might become a water trap -- but I haven't seen it so I have no idea if that's a potential issue.
I'm torn about the ladder -- you and Gradygal both make good points. Offhand I'd say that if the main reason you leave it off is cosmetic, I'd probably leave it attached. I agree that the rig looks better without it, but it isn't heavy and doesn't seem like it would get in the way. Who knows, I might need to access something on the roof, or maybe we'd be watching wildlife or fireworks and want a a better vantage point. I don't know, we'll have to see about that.
WRT the antenna, again, your reasoning is perfectly rational but Gradygal has apparently had a completely different experience. I notice there is about a 3 year difference between you rigs. Gradygal mentioned something about an antenna amp, I know they can help -- especially if they are mounted at the antenna (less noise is amplified that way). The other thing that occurred to me is that perhaps your antennas have a different design? Maybe Gradygal's is optimized for digital broadcast signals (ATSC) and yours is meant for the analog NTSC system? Once again, I have no idea, just throwing that out there.
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I need to disagree with Ron on a couple of his suggestions:
.......we had the ladder and roof rack installed and are VERY glad we did.
.......We frequently stay at a Corps of Engineers Park near Ft. Myers and use the antenna to pick up Ft. Myers stations.
And there you have your different opinions.
About the antenna, we too have the booster yet have very limited use. I suppose a lot depends on the types of places travelled to. We do stay most often in the mountains and canyons where line-of-sight is dramatically disrupted, then the antenna isn't going to work. Analog signals found their way around such obstacles much better. And we could deal with a little snow on the screen much better than the sound cutting in and out with digital. In Florida the only obstruction would be something man-made which is much more forgiving. Admittedly, we very rarely camp under those types of conditions.
Ooops! I should have scrolled down before posting. I hadn't read this yet. It sounds like you both have the same antenna and amplifier and just use them under different conditions.
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sajohnson
We have the passenger swivel seat (in leather) and it is great. We also have the driver seat swivel and have used it many times during our 3 month stay in FL.
We had a MaxxFan (6200K model) installed in place of the fantastic fan in the bedroom area and wish we had also put one in the living area instead of the fantastic fan. The MaxxFan has many nice features and is much quieter than the fantastic fan.
The leveling jacks are wonderful, you won't regret that decision.
We also did not have any carpet installed except in the cab area.
We also use the TV antenna Winegard all of the time and never have had a problem. We do not hear it bounce on the roof and it also has the digital booster. We have been in remote areas, outside city limits and in metropolitan areas and have never experienced a problem.
The POWER Awning is another wonderful feature.
Good Luck in your search.
Thanks for the Maxxfan suggestion, that's the first I've heard of it. If it's better than the Fantastic Fan then it must incredible!
I like the idea of the leveling jacks, but I'm concerned about the extra weight since we're almost certainly going with the Sprinter chassis.
This will be our first RV so there is quite a bit I don't know about -- like the awning. Are manual awnings difficult to extend and retract?
Thank you!
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We had a 2010 PC 2350 Sprinter and loved it but felt that we needed a larger rig with twin beds so we traded it in on a 2011 PC 2551.
I need to disagree with Ron on a couple of his suggestions:
We ordered the Sprinter without the ladder. Yes, it makes the rear of the Coach look cleaner; however, on our 2551, we had the ladder and roof rack installed and are VERY glad we did. On the way home to Florida from Virginia in September, a screw on the roof vent fell off and the vent cover came up (at 65 MPH on RT. 81). We pulled off and I climbed up onto the roof of the motorhome, pushed the vent cover back down and we returned the screw to the vent. If we didn't have the ladder on the back, that would not have been fixed in a timely manner and we may have lost the cover.
We use the Winegard antenna all the time. The newer antennas are equipped with a booster so the t.v comes in very clear. We find no rattling of the antenna when underway and do not find the signal touchy. Remember, not all RV parks (even near cities) have cable. We frequently stay at a Corps of Engineers Park near Ft. Myers and use the antenna to pick up Ft. Myers stations.
The only option that you list that we would not want is the mirror with compass and outside temp. We are very happy with the Sony monitor with an 8" extension. It puts the monitor where your rearview mirror should be. You are right on with all the other options.
Thanks for the reply Gradygal!
I'm curious, what is the Sony monitor with the 8" extension you referred to? If it is any bigger than a typical portable GPS unit, I'm thinking it would obstruct the driver's vision if it is mounted where the rearview mirror should be. Is it a PC factory option?
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I'm torn about the ladder -- you and Gradygal both make good points. Offhand I'd say that if the main reason you leave it off is cosmetic.
The clean appearence is secondary. We plan to own our rig for a very long time, 25-30 years, maybe longer. When I examine older motor homes, that stuff becomes questionable whether it can be trusted. Rusting screws, heavily oxidized aluminum parts and related hardware along with dried-up caulk is concerning both on the rear wall and roof where water penetration becomes a concern. I feel the fewer holes in my roof and wall, the better. Admittedly I have much larger holes like for the a/c, skylight and roof vents and such, but the roof rack, ladder and Winegard antenna are easy for me to delete. And for some reason, old screws are a common source of water infiltration.
As mentioned by Gradygal, there will be a time where I'll wish I had the ladder on-the-spot......especially if my rig gets tangled up in branches or something. But I will take my chances. Hey, I still have my ladder & rack. I can still mount them if I change my mind. If I ever do, I would likely install just the ladder.
Every now and then someone donates an old motor home to the charity I volunteer at. Those with ladders demonstrates to me I made a wise decision.
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I'm torn about the ladder -- you and Gradygal both make good points. Offhand I'd say that if the main reason you leave it off is cosmetic.
The clean appearence is secondary. We plan to own our rig for a very long time, 25-30 years, maybe longer. When I examine older motor homes, that stuff becomes questionable whether it can be trusted. Rusting screws, heavily oxidized aluminum parts and related hardware along with dried-up caulk is concerning both on the rear wall and roof where water penetration becomes a concern. I feel the fewer holes in my roof and wall, the better. Admittedly I have much larger holes like for the a/c, skylight and roof vents and such, but the roof rack, ladder and Winegard antenna are easy for me to delete. And for some reason, old screws are a common source of water infiltration.
As mentioned by Gradygal, there will be a time where I'll wish I had the ladder on-the-spot......especially if my rig gets tangled up in branches or something. But I will take my chances. Hey, I still have my ladder & rack. I can still mount them if I change my mind. If I ever do, I would likely install just the ladder.
Every now and then someone donates an old motor home to the charity I volunteer at. Those with ladders demonstrates to me I made a wise decision.
As Charlie Brown might say: Aaaaargh!
Very good points Ron. Now I'm really torn as to what to do. It would be interesting to get PC's input. Of course, since many/most of their rigs come with ladders PC may be reluctant to admit there are any safety and/or water infiltration issues related to the ladders (if there have been any).
Question: What are the differences (if any) between the Sprinter-based 2350 and the F-350 based 2350? For example, the aero-cap on the Sprinter-based rig appears to be much smaller. Are there differences in the ent. center/storage cabinets between the Ford F-350 and Sprinter-based 2350s?
Thanks!
Sherman
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Hi Sherman,
First off, thank you for the nice compliment.
To address some of the remarks made here in the last few days with my two cents worth.
I have had the roof antenna on all my seven motorhomes since 1984 and have never had a leak problem. Ron has the older analog antenna with the upgrade for digital while the newer rigs all come with the turned for digital antenna. So you could see a difference in its ability to pickup distance signals.
Fantastic Fan company is one of the best company's I have ever dealt with. If anything ever goes wrong with the fan regardless of the age of the fan, they just send you new parts for free. One motorhome I bought came with a basic fan without a thermostat and I wanted to upgrade it for my dogs, so I called them and they not only sent me all the parts for free but had me call them when I went to install it so they could walk me thought the install. I will always stick with Fantastic for that reason alone regardless of what else is out there. I have put the Maxxair II vent covers on both my fans but now I understand that Fantastic is coming out with a new and better cover. I can hardly wait to see it.
The plastic underbelly is a good thing and is really strong. It would be very hard to punch a hole in it by accident. I would not worry about water getting into it and have not heard of anyone having any problems with it.
On both of my PCs, I got the ladder and passed on the roof rack. I do not like the looks of the rack, looks old fashion to me and is just something I have to clean around. I don't have the ability to keep my PC in a garage like Ron, so I have to wash it every month or so. When I wash it, I also wash the roof to prevent the "black streaks" on the sides. The ladder makes it easier to get up on the roof without having to get out a ladder. I also feel it is safer than a stand alone ladder that might slip off the motorhome. One time on the way to Myrtle Beach for Christmas break, I hit a low hanging ice covered branch at 50 mph. Really loud bang. I pulled over to the side of the road and used the ladder to climb up on the roof and look for a big hole. No hole but the satellite dish cover was gone. Never overnight a cover, it cost me $200 for the cover and surprise, $300 for the shipping. A ladder can be real handy at times.
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If you search the Forum, General Discussion for "Troubleshooting electrical problems in rear camera hookup", go to reply #23 and you will see a picture of our Sony monitor for the backup camera with the extension. We ordered the extension but we gave Phoenix the name of where we go it, so they can probably get one if asked.
There is more headroom in the Sprinter cab; therefore, the t.v is up higher. I really feel, that with the Sprinter, you need an adjustable t.v mount. Mor-ride has many t.v mounts available.
George
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We have the ladder and wouldn’t want to be without it. Sometimes staying weeks at a time, it makes for easy cleaning of the roof. The jacks are great. Not only do they level, but they make it stable – very little movement of the coach when moving around inside or when someone enters or leaves via the step. We have not encountered a problem with antenna. Never noticed any noise from it when traveling, get good reception, and a great HD picture. Also, the home theater system is great for volume when the AC is on or in heavy rain when the TV volume is not enough.
And recommend the insulated windows: no sweating (accept the windshield), warmer, quieter. The only option I might reconsider is getting the swivel driver’s seat rather than the power seat, although I do like to raise it as high as it will go when travelling. The very best decision was no carpet. The second best was a light over the bathroom sink (pic). It’s pretty much the only light we use in the bathroom.
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Hi Sherman,
First off, thank you for the nice compliment.
To address some of the remarks made here in the last few days with my two cents worth.
I have had the roof antenna on all my seven motorhomes since 1984 and have never had a leak problem. Ron has the older analog antenna with the upgrade for digital while the newer rigs all come with the turned for digital antenna. So you could see a difference in its ability to pickup distance signals.
Fantastic Fan company is one of the best company's I have ever dealt with. If anything ever goes wrong with the fan regardless of the age of the fan, they just send you new parts for free. One motorhome I bought came with a basic fan without a thermostat and I wanted to upgrade it for my dogs, so I called them and they not only sent me all the parts for free but had me call them when I went to install it so they could walk me thought the install. I will always stick with Fantastic for that reason alone regardless of what else is out there. I have put the Maxxair II vent covers on both my fans but now I understand that Fantastic is coming out with a new and better cover. I can hardly wait to see it.
The plastic underbelly is a good thing and is really strong. It would be very hard to punch a hole in it by accident. I would not worry about water getting into it and have not heard of anyone having any problems with it.
On both of my PCs, I got the ladder and passed on the roof rack. I do not like the looks of the rack, looks old fashion to me and is just something I have to clean around. I don't have the ability to keep my PC in a garage like Ron, so I have to wash it every month or so. When I wash it, I also wash the roof to prevent the "black streaks" on the sides. The ladder makes it easier to get up on the roof without having to get out a ladder. I also feel it is safer than a stand alone ladder that might slip off the motorhome. One time on the way to Myrtle Beach for Christmas break, I hit a low hanging ice covered branch at 50 mph. Really loud bang. I pulled over to the side of the road and used the ladder to climb up on the roof and look for a big hole. No hole but the satellite dish cover was gone. Never overnight a cover, it cost me $200 for the cover and surprise, $300 for the shipping. A ladder can be real handy at times.
Hi Tom,
How do you like your new PC?
I'm glad to hear that not everyone has had trouble with the antenna because that seems like something we'd want to have. I don't plan to be watching a lot of TV, but when you want to it's nice to have decent reception and a few channels to choose from. I realize of course that won't always be the case. For example Ron mentioned terrain having a big influence, and I'm sure there are plenty of areas that just don't have many TV transmitters nearby.
I don't know that we'll go to the trouble and expense of getting a satellite antenna and receiver, but that's always an option. How well do they work BTW? I don't recall reading any discussions about them. We have DirecTV at home -- do the portable systems work as well as the typical fixed residential ones?
Very good info about Fantastic Fan Co. I like to reward companies that still do business that way. I'll keep that in mind. Reminds me of the time I bought a monster 24,000 BTU thru-wall Whirlpool A/C unit from Lowes. They were closing their old Frederick, MD, store and opening the new one and selling some scratch and dent stuff 'as-is'. The A/C unit looked ok but needed the front panel, the filter, and a control knob. I called Whirlpool fully expecting to pay for the parts but they sent everything to me for free -- even after I explained that I bought it as-is sitting on a pallet on the sidewalk in front of Lowes. Smart business.
The plastic underbelly sounds good to me. I haven't heard any other mfr mention something like that.
We have a large garage with a 13' ceiling, but when I built it we weren't considering buying an RV so the doors are only 8' high. We're going to raise the height of the center door. I hope we can just buy more panels from Raynor -- those doors were over $600 each, years ago. 2" thick, insulated (R-11, IIRC) and steel inside and out.
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We have the ladder and wouldn’t want to be without it. Sometimes staying weeks at a time, it makes for easy cleaning of the roof. The jacks are great. Not only do they level, but they make it stable – very little movement of the coach when moving around inside or when someone enters or leaves via the step. We have not encountered a problem with antenna. Never noticed any noise from it when traveling, get good reception, and a great HD picture. Also, the home theater system is great for volume when the AC is on or in heavy rain when the TV volume is not enough.
And recommend the insulated windows: no sweating (accept the windshield), warmer, quieter. The only option I might reconsider is getting the swivel driver’s seat rather than the power seat, although I do like to raise it as high as it will go when travelling. The very best decision was no carpet. The second best was a light over the bathroom sink (pic). It’s pretty much the only light we use in the bathroom.
I love the idea of the jacks, but I am a bit concerned about the added weight since we plan to get a Sprinter-based 2350 (depending on the F-350 to Sprinter price differential).
I correspond with a guy who has a 2006 Winnebago View. He would like to add both jacks and solar but cannot because he and DW are pretty much at the GVWR. Of course, IIRC, the early I-5 Sprinter chassis had a lower GVWR than the current V-6 Sprinter. Still, there's almost a 1,500 pound difference between the F-350 and the Sprinter.
A less expensive and much lighter method I've read about is to semi-permanently attach four scissors jacks to the frame and use a cordless drill to raise and lower them. Not the same as flipping a switch though, that's for sure.
Good advice on the carpet. That's our thinking as well. Likewise the windows and bathroom light.
I wonder what the height difference is between the standard drivers seat and the power seat at it's highest setting? DW uses a pillow to raise herself up in two of our vehicles. She doesn't need it in her RAV4 though so the Sprinter seat height might not be an issue. We took a new WGO View for a test drive at a local dealer but she chickened out and didn't want to drive it. ;-) Something for us to check out before buying, although I guess we could change out the seat at any time.
I'm glad to hear the antenna has worked well for you. A former coworker told me he got a much better HD image with his home rooftop antenna than with either cable or satellite. That stands to reason since the cable and satellite TV providers compress their signals so much.
Thanks for your help!
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I don't know that we'll go to the trouble and expense of getting a satellite antenna and receiver, but that's always an option. How well do they work BTW? I don't recall reading any discussions about them. We have DirecTV at home -- do the portable systems work as well as the typical fixed residential ones?
We have DirecTV at home as well and take one of our receivers with us. We bought an extra dish and stand for it and it works great. It costs us about $50 for the extra dish and stand. The advantage for us is that we can set it up anywhere in the campsite in order to get us the best reception. We have only been in one park where the trees were too thick for us to get a good signal. The people with the dome on top of their rigs had the same trouble. Many times we are able to get a signal when those with the domes could not since we could position our dish in between trees. The advantage of the dome would be that you do not have to do alot of setup since it is already in place. A second advantage is that you do not have to look for a place to store the dish when traveling.
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I had a King Dome and you couldn’t run fast enough to give me one. Now with that said I know they work but mine did not. We had a slight and I mean SLIGHT rain and lost my picture. I check the signal strength, 55-60 on both bars up on the roof and wiped off the dome and the signal moved up to 95 on both bars. This I posted on another thread so no big need to drawl on about it. I purchased a Winegard crank up for the roof, which works great.
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We also have Directv at home and take one of the receivers with us in the PC. Instead of buying a dish and stand, I made my own stand from pvc and got a free dish at thrift store. I replaced the nuts on the bolts that hold the dish to its signal head with wing nuts. That way I can store the flat dish in the bottom of my outdoor drawer with the head unit on top of it and the pvc stand on top of that. It fits in the drawer with enough space for other "stuff" plus the electric cord and water hose. I have a connection in the front for the satellite, and use the antenna for the rear tv. It usually takes less than 5 minutes to set everything up and manually locate the satellite. I carry a 50' cable, so I can almost always find the satellite. The stand is low to the ground, and I have never had a problem with wind or rain.
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I had a King Dome and you couldn’t run fast enough to give me one. Now with that said I know they work but mine did not. We had a slight and I mean SLIGHT rain and lost my picture. I check the signal strength, 55-60 on both bars up on the roof and wiped off the dome and the signal moved up to 95 on both bars. This I posted on another thread so no big need to drawl on about it. I purchased a Winegard crank up for the roof, which works great.
My King Dome didn't much care for bugs either, kinda of a pain to always crawl up there and Windex the bugs off. Shoot with 4G just watch your favorite on your phone and Hulu. Probably even a way to port it to one of the new smart TV's.
Did it again, back to topic.
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Hi Sherman -- time for my 2 cents:
I LOVE my Sprinter - 17.6 mpg @ 55-60 mph, 16.4 @ 65-70 -- and great ride. It is our 3rd PC, - we looked at the specs of every 23-24 ft. RV in N America, and found none with the features, fit & finish, & ammenities of the Phoenix. On the antenna, have the digital std. with no problems -- at the house I get 40 channels, and have always had reception at campgrounds. Also have jacks, and like them -- not only for stabilizing, but leveling as well - I wonder how effective scissors jacks would be for that...in short, we are very happy, and think you will be as well with the sprinter.
Good luck, and welcome to the "group"
Jack
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Hi Sherman -- time for my 2 cents:
I LOVE my Sprinter - 17.6 mpg @ 55-60 mph, 16.4 @ 65-70 -- and great ride. It is our 3rd PC, - we looked at the specs of every 23-24 ft. RV in N America, and found none with the features, fit & finish, & ammenities of the Phoenix. On the antenna, have the digital std. with no problems -- at the house I get 40 channels, and have always had reception at campgrounds. Also have jacks, and like them -- not only for stabilizing, but leveling as well - I wonder how effective scissors jacks would be for that...in short, we are very happy, and think you will be as well with the sprinter.
Good luck, and welcome to the "group"
Jack
Hi Jack,
Thanks for the encouraging and informative post!
40 stations?!! That's incredible! I guess in Queenstown you're picking up stations from D.C., Baltimore, and maybe even Wilmington?
If this is your third PC you obviously like them and have figured out exactly which features you prefer. I am impressed with PC -- they seem to be very well built and they include many features that are optional on other RVs. I am just hoping that we can find a used Sprinter-based 2350 for a reasonable price. The 2350 seems to be hard to find, regardless of the chassis they're built on (and most seem to be built on the F-350).
Your mileage figures are very impressive -- they seem more typical of the older I-5 Sprinter chassis. Over how many miles did you calculate the two mpg numbers? The reason I ask is that I've been posting over at RV.net as well, and there are many F-350/450 fans over there (as there are here) who are very skeptical of the mileage Sprinter-based RV owners are reporting. I often hear things like, "That must have been their best tankful -- drafting a semi at 55 mph and/or with a tailwind and/or lightly loaded...", etc. I have no first-hand experience, but your numbers are in line with what owners of the WGO View/Navion are seeing and what I've read over my years of RV research.
The scissors jack idea is obviously far from ideal. I can't recall where I read about it but the person seemed to think it did the job for them. It was probably on the View-Navion Yahoo group. Tell me, how much CCC does your rig have -- total, assuming empty water tanks and no tongue weight? I'm concerned about the weight of the hydraulic jack system. If (say) the CCC is ~1,000 pounds, that's only about as much as most cars have. We plan to carry a lightweight Enduro (small motorcycle) on a hitch carrier and that alone (bike & carrier) will probably weigh ~350 to 375 pounds. Then there's DW and I -- that's another say 360 (I'm sure she'd want me to clarify that almost 2/3 of that is me!). If the jacks weigh about 180 pounds we're up to 900 and we don't have any water or luggage on board yet. I hope my numbers are wrong, because I'd like to have the jacks -- they're a great option.
One thing I'd really like to see is the PC "virtual construction tour" mentioned in the PC brochure. I've checked the PC website but didn't see anything like that. If you or someone else could give me a link I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks again,
Sherman
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One thing I'd really like to see is the PC "virtual construction tour" mentioned in the PC brochure. I've checked the PC website but didn't see anything like that. If you or someone else could give me a link I'd really appreciate it.
The original virtual tour is a many slide PowerPoint presentation with sound narration that runs around 14.5 minutes.
I got a fairly clean copy of it over 4 years ago but can't share it due to it's 72MB size.
You can watch a technically ill (poor sound and smaller pictures) copy of it on Youtube HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Mfp-jZIR0)
Understand that the presentation was made to demonstrate the 2008 model year so there are some superficial differences between 2008 and 2012.
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One thing I'd really like to see is the PC "virtual construction tour" mentioned in the PC brochure. I've checked the PC website but didn't see anything like that. If you or someone else could give me a link I'd really appreciate it.
The original virtual tour is a many slide PowerPoint presentation with sound narration that runs around 14.5 minutes.
I got a fairly clean copy of it over 4 years ago but can't share it due to it's 72MB size.
You can watch a technically ill (poor sound and smaller pictures) copy of it on Youtube HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Mfp-jZIR0)
Understand that the presentation was made to demonstrate the 2008 model year so there are some superficial differences between 2008 and 2012.
Thanks Ron!
Just curious -- any idea why it is not available at the PC website?
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Hi Sherman...
No, I haven't weighed my rig --- I had the jacks on a previous PC, and knew I wanted them on this one - just another option I wanted and didn't worry about the weight.
I've only had the Sprinter for a few months, and the milage was calculated on a trip to friends in GA. Over the course of the trip, weather conditions were very different - rain & wind, etc., -- one tank with heavy wind against us and 70 mph, yeilded 14 mpg, and one (where I don't think I filled the tank completely) resulted in 19 something. The others were pretty consistantly in the 16-17+ range.
If you want to email me, I can give you more info - jackd@novatec.com
Best,
Jack
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...any idea why it is not available at the PC website?
I would assume because it is outdated.
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Hi Sherman...
No, I haven't weighed my rig --- I had the jacks on a previous PC, and knew I wanted them on this one - just another option I wanted and didn't worry about the weight.
I've only had the Sprinter for a few months, and the milage was calculated on a trip to friends in GA. Over the course of the trip, weather conditions were very different - rain & wind, etc., -- one tank with heavy wind against us and 70 mph, yeilded 14 mpg, and one (where I don't think I filled the tank completely) resulted in 19 something. The others were pretty consistantly in the 16-17+ range.
If you want to email me, I can give you more info - jackd@novatec.com
Best,
Jack
Thanks Jack, will do.
Sherman
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One thing I'd really like to see is the PC "virtual construction tour" mentioned in the PC brochure. I've checked the PC website but didn't see anything like that. If you or someone else could give me a link I'd really appreciate it.
The original virtual tour is a many slide PowerPoint presentation with sound narration that runs around 14.5 minutes.
I got a fairly clean copy of it over 4 years ago but can't share it due to it's 72MB size.
You can watch a technically ill (poor sound and smaller pictures) copy of it on Youtube HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Mfp-jZIR0)
Understand that the presentation was made to demonstrate the 2008 model year so there are some superficial differences between 2008 and 2012.
Thanks Ron!
Just curious -- any idea why it is not available at the PC website?
I watched the tour on YouTube and while the quality wasn't the best (as you said) it was certainly watchable and informative.
Actually, as I was watching it I realized I had seen at least some of it before.
It really looks like PC does a good job. As an electro-mechanical tech I like that PC uses all continuous runs of wire and all of the terminations looked clean and professional. In addition, the plumbing looked well done. I'm not familiar with that plastic pipe/hose, but the connections to the brass fittings looked solid.
There wasn't really anything I saw that made me question the quality of construction. In one frame they did show a cover (over a water tank maybe?) that was made from wafer board, but everything else seemed to be plywood or solid wood.
After that I watched the Coach House video for comparison, since it was right there. CH is clearly a bit better quality in some areas, but not near enough to justify the additional cost. One thing I noticed was that CH stated all of their insulation -- walls, floor, and roof -- is R-28. That's impressive for a RV. I wonder what the R-value of PC's insulation is? Just curious -- I'm not gonna spend $150K or whatever just to get R-28 insulation!
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If you search the Forum, General Discussion for "Troubleshooting electrical problems in rear camera hookup", go to reply #23 and you will see a picture of our Sony monitor for the backup camera with the extension. We ordered the extension but we gave Phoenix the name of where we go it, so they can probably get one if asked.
There is more headroom in the Sprinter cab; therefore, the t.v is up higher. I really feel, that with the Sprinter, you need an adjustable t.v mount. Mor-ride has many t.v mounts available.
George
Very slick set-up!
I'm not sure I understand why the TV is mounted higher in the Sprinter. I guess I'd have to see it. I have noticed the difference in cab height but the overall height is only 3" more with the Sprinter (according to the PC brochure I have anyway). TV mounts are almost always a worthwhile addition anyway. It's important to be comfortable and have the viewing angle right.
Sherman
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Sherman -- admittedly, I'm prejudiced, but when I looked at CH, they offered no changes from their standard & options -- I specifically requested the Sani Con & was told "no" --- and, as you say, the price & trade value was rediculous (sp). As I've said before, the PC offered the amenities & fit & finish that I didn't find elsewhere in the 23-24 ft. range. And, as others have said, the folks at the factory go out of their way to please.
Jack
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Sherman -- admittedly, I'm prejudiced, but when I looked at CH, they offered no changes from their standard & options -- I specifically requested the Sani Con & was told "no" --- and, as you say, the price & trade value was rediculous (sp). As I've said before, the PC offered the amenities & fit & finish that I didn't find elsewhere in the 23-24 ft. range. And, as others have said, the folks at the factory go out of their way to please.
Jack
Jack,
You're preaching to the choir. ;-)
DW and I don't have anywhere near that kind of money to drop on an RV, and even if we did the additional expense is hard to justify.
For what they charge I'm amazed they don't offer the Sani Con standard, and to not at least offer it as an option is just ridiculous.
I didn't even get so far as to compare options. I watched the CH video because it was right there, and I thought it would be interesting to compare the videos back-to-back. What I meant to say was that PC is clearly a better value. CH may have some advantages (R-28 insulation, one-piece shell) but not nearly enough to justify the price difference.
The primary claim to fame for CH seems to be the one-piece shell. While that would seem to be preferable to the way most class C RVs are made, as a practical matter I don't see that it makes a real difference. I don't hear anything about PC, LTV, or WGO coaches developing leaks so it's pretty much a non-issue, near as I can tell.
Bottom line, PC holds up very well next to CH, which is very impressive considering the major price difference.
DW and I have come full-circle back to PC. The only reason we started looking elsewhere was to try and find a walk-around queen in the same size coach. There are a few, but they aren't what we're looking for otherwise.
I've been searching coast-to-coast for a 2350 w/dinette on a Sprinter chassis but haven't found any -- not one. Are they not very popular, or are people just holding on to them?
Sherman
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Our first motor home Here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/sets/72157621472936441/show/) was a one piece like Coach House, but much simpler and used low grade finish materials. Brand new it cost us $12,225 in 1983. Strangely enough, I still dealt with a little water getting inside. Most got in from the dual hindging rear wall & door, some from around the marker lights and some around the windows. The one piece shell suffered from a few stress cracks, but never was structural nor involved concern for water.
Very few 2350s with a fixed dinette (no-slide) exist. Nearly all have a sofa in a slideout as it is quite the popular choice.
My wife and I have to be the odd-balls in our thinking. You should see our regular house. We designed a one-of-a-kind.
The relative height of the TV is notably higher in a Sprinter than in either Ford given the driver's cab ceiling height is significant higher. PC-USA compensates by using a taller B+ cap on the Ford, and a low profile version on the Sprinter. Of coarse, the cabinets on each side of the TV are smaller. I personally don't see any of this being significant. Just noting the minor differences for the discussion. Some would say the improved head room the Sprinter's front cab is better at opening it up for living room space.
(http://phoenixusarv.com/albums/2350_models/slides/20110909_12.jpg)
(http://phoenixusarv.com/albums/2350_models/slides/20110824_34.jpg)
(http://phoenixusarv.com/albums/2350_models/slides/20110909_39.jpg)
(http://phoenixusarv.com/albums/2350_models/slides/20110824_37.jpg)
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Thanks for the photos Ron, they're great!
One difference I noticed is the seats -- the seats in the Ford look a lot more comfy.
At least you can tell people you and your wife aren't the only oddballs -- my wife and I really prefer the dinette also, and we need to get the larger one you have since we may need to use it as an adult-sized bed.
Is there a 2350 with the larger dinette in a slide? Or is the larger dinette only offered in the coaches without a slide?
Also, I may have asked before, but what are the dimensions of the dinette _bed_ in your PC 2350? I hate to bother you but I could not find that info on the PC website.
Same with the shower. As I recall, I was able to stand up in the shower in Tom's 2350, but I'm curious about the dimensions, particularly the height.
I've noticed that most RV mfrs, including PC, aren't always very forthcoming with some dimensions. That's a shame because there are certain dimensions that are important to buyers and not having them readily available makes things more difficult.
Something else that would be very helpful would be an archive section that has brochures with features, specs, options, etc for previous model years. Very few mfrs seem to do this either (WGO is one that does).
Not picking on PC, just some observations.
I like the larger cabinets over the cab in the Ford, but I prefer the exterior look/profile of the Sprinter-based 2350.
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I can tell you, from experience, that the Sprinter seats are more comfortable than the Ford.
Viewing the t.v in the Ford is much easier on the neck. We found that we had to look up with the Sprinter (we reccomended the mount in a previous post).
We like the profile of the Sprinter over the Ford. We had many more compliments on the Sprinter than we have had on the Ford.
For us, the layout of the 2551 was the best, so we traded the 2350 for the 2551.
Judi
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Keep in-mind the 2350 dimensions I am providing are from my 2007 model year.
Dinette
Bed dimensions: 71W x 36D (71W is with cushions removed, finished board to finished board)
Table dimensions: 29W x 34D
Leg room: 29.5W
Overall dimension of dinette: 73.5W x 37D
I am 5'-11" so it was a surprise to me to see the width matched my height. The few times I slept on the dinette when sick, I guess I never slept like a soldier laying at attention. It seemed to be plenty wide for me.
Shower
Just above the shower pan: 34W x 23D
Max to skylight dome: 73H
Keep in mind, the shower narrows as it gets higher due to the curved exterior wall. The roof is crowned, so the shower ceiling is vaulted. Looking at my shower, if PC-USA installed the plumbing on the opposite "outside" wall, there would be much more room to take a shower. But that would put the plumbing in a sealed vacu-bonded wall, not a hollow interior wall. If I were to order a new PC just for me, I would still inquire about doing that, and discuss any repercusions of it. You might end up with a raised wall panel/channel for the two pipes to pass through. I can see why they did it the way it is, given the plumbing is done before the exterior walls are installed. But it would have been nice.
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Something else that would be very helpful would be an archive section that has brochures with features, specs, options, etc for previous model years. Very few mfrs seem to do this either (WGO is one that does).
I ask Aimee that question once every few years.
I have PDFs of 4 model years...2007, 2009, 2011, 2012
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Thanks Ron!
Just curious -- any idea why it is not available at the PC website?
http://phoenixusarv.com/tour.html
I understand that some of the virtual tours do not work properly in some browsers. I haven't had a chance to remedy that yet.
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Aimee, how do we navigate to the tour page? It would be ideal if there was a dedicated blue button on the left-hand side with the others.
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There's a link in the footer.
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Here I go again --- I agree with Judi on the comfort of seats in the sprinter, although the later model year fords are pretty good too. And, sherman, I would likewise love to see a perminent double or queen in the 23-24 ft range, but not to be had -- the beds in all 3 of the units we've had have been a problem, but the good folks at Phoenix are working with me for a fix. I think Ron is right about the dinette/sofa in the 2350s -- the sofa offers a second bed if the corner gets to crowded. (We had the problem of me crawling over the DW in the middle of the night, and I tend to thrash around, so the corner became a sore spot) Just us, I'm sure -- others seem to get along fine with it!!!
Jack
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I have to support Jack in the thought the corner bed is questionable. We had a 2350 and could not sleep together in it (I'm not overly large but am a 6 foot, 210 pound guy who requires a lot of sleeping room). Peg couldn't sleep on the fold-out sofa comfortably either. Consequently, we went to a twin bed 2551/2552.
If PC had a 24-25 foot model with a walkaround double bed in the rear, that would definitely have been a very big consideration in our decision.
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I can tell you, from experience, that the Sprinter seats are more comfortable than the Ford.
Viewing the t.v in the Ford is much easier on the neck. We found that we had to look up with the Sprinter (we reccomended the mount in a previous post).
We like the profile of the Sprinter over the Ford. We had many more compliments on the Sprinter than we have had on the Ford.
For us, the layout of the 2551 was the best, so we traded the 2350 for the 2551.
Judi
I agree with you about the profile of the Sprinter-based 2350 and 2400 -- of course my wife and I started out looking at class B RVs. The E-350/450 rigs look good too.
An adjustable TV mount is a great idea -- especially when a TV must be mounted in a less than ideal location.
I'm glad to hear the Sprinter seats are more comfortable. In the photos Ron posted, the Ford seats look extra-plush, but there's also such a thing as too much cushioning and not enough support.
Sherman
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I have to support Jack in the thought the corner bed is questionable. We had a 2350 and could not sleep together in it (I'm not overly large but am a 6 foot, 210 pound guy who requires a lot of sleeping room). Peg couldn't sleep on the fold-out sofa comfortably either. Consequently, we went to a twin bed 2551/2552.
If PC had a 24-25 foot model with a walkaround double bed in the rear, that would definitely have been a very big consideration in our decision.
Thanks to both you and Jack for your input!
Both my wife and I really prefer to have a dinette, but if I were convinced the sofa offered a much more comfortable bed I might be persuaded to go that way. IIRC, I saw a photo of the sofa on the PC website that had a caption indicating that it had an air mattress. Is that the case? If so, for how many years has PC used the air mattress with the sofa? I'd prefer to avoid any sort of air mattress. I've found that they aren't comfortable (regardless of brand or type) and there seem to be a large number of complaints about the ones installed in RVs (generally speaking) -- mostly that they tend to leak.
The sofa bed is larger which is definitely a plus, but if the dinette bed is comfortable, or can be made comfortable with a high quality memory foam topper then we'll likely stick with the dinette.
WRT the corner bed -- it's far from ideal, that's for sure. In fact, as I may have mentioned above, we heard enough negative comments about them here and on other forums that we gave up on the 2350 (and a couple other corner bed designs we were considering) and decided we had to have a walk/shuffle around queen (in slide or not). There are a couple coaches that are <25' long that have a queen size bed (well, RV 'queen' size anyway) but they will not work for us for a variety of reasons -- the LTV Unity U24IB ('island bed') and the WGO View Profile/Itasca Navion iQ with the queen in the rear slide are two of them. Then there's the WGO Via 25Q (technically 25'5"), and the Fleetwood Jamboree 24R (25'2"). They all leave a lot to be desired in comparison to the PC 2350 though.
I'm a pretty big guy (6'2", 235) but I tend to lay in one position when sleeping. I'm hoping that (at least initially) the corner bed will work for DW and I. If not, she's ok with sleeping in the other bed as long as it is comfortable.
Buying an RV has been by far the most difficult and time-consuming purchase of my life. There are so many considerations, variables, options, and compromises.
Sherman
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Keep in-mind the 2350 dimensions I am providing are from my 2007 model year.
Dinette
Bed dimensions: 71W x 36D (71W is with cushions removed, finished board to finished board)
Table dimensions: 29W x 34D
Leg room: 29.5W
Overall dimension of dinette: 73.5W x 37D
I am 5'-11" so it was a surprise to me to see the width matched my height. The few times I slept on the dinette when sick, I guess I never slept like a soldier laying at attention. It seemed to be plenty wide for me.
Shower
Just above the shower pan: 34W x 23D
Max to skylight dome: 73H
Keep in mind, the shower narrows as it gets higher due to the curved exterior wall. The roof is crowned, so the shower ceiling is vaulted. Looking at my shower, if PC-USA installed the plumbing on the opposite "outside" wall, there would be much more room to take a shower. But that would put the plumbing in a sealed vacu-bonded wall, not a hollow interior wall. If I were to order a new PC just for me, I would still inquire about doing that, and discuss any repercusions of it. You might end up with a raised wall panel/channel for the two pipes to pass through. I can see why they did it the way it is, given the plumbing is done before the exterior walls are installed. But it would have been nice.
Thank you Ron, this is very helpful!
I'm sorry that I had to ask you to go to the trouble. These measurements really should be readily available on the PC website.
If DW changes her mind and makes me sleep in the dinette bed, it looks like I may be a bit cramped. :-( The majority of people should have plenty of room though.
I thought I could stand up in the shower in Tom's 2350. I must be mistaken -- maybe I was tilting my head down somewhat. If 73" is the maximum height measured to the top of the skylight dome I wouldn't be able to stand up -- unless I've shrunk in my old age. ;-)
That's too bad. Not a deal killer but definitely a drawback. At this point in the epic RV search process I've learned that I must be willing to compromise, and assign weight to the various features that DW and I are concerned about.
WRT model year, we are planning to purchase a 2350 on a Sprinter chassis which if I understand correctly means we will be looking at models from 2009 and up. Hopefully the measurements you gave are the same (or greater) for the later model years.
It's hard to tell (for me anyway) which model years:
a) Offered the larger dinette (the one you have).
b) Offered the larger dinette in a slide (if any).
Thanks again for your help.
Sherman
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I have a question about the single chair shown in Ron's photos (previous page) -- it's not obvious but I assume it's bolted to the floor in a secure manner and has a seat belt so that it is safe to use while traveling, is that true? If so, is it possible to have a small table securely placed in front of it? The reason I'm asking is that I'm thinking it would be nice to have a 'mini office' or workspace that can be used while underway.
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Sherman --- Welcome to the "RV Purchase club", and difficulties associated with same!!! As I've said, I've had 3 --2 in the last 2 years, and hopefully this is it!!!
The barrel chair in the my 2350 (2006) was bolted down with a seat belt. The new "euro chairs" options (which are great) are on a ring which is secured to the floor with a clamp, and immovable when underway. The idea of a table with the chair is a good one -- and not to confuse you further, that's why we went to the 2400 - 2 euro chairs, with a "cocktail" or work table between - is great for happy hour!
I too, researched the bed situation in other RVs, and, while somewhat appealing, the fit & finish in them turned me off. (Sounding like a broken record!) With all 3 RVs the bed has been an issue - I mentioned the corner bed pproblems in the 2350, and with your size, I would be surprised if you and DW would be comfortable - like Bob (rmmpe). With the twin beds, I kept hitting the wall/window, and Linda found the shorter bed a little short, and on a "boys" camping trip a friend (6'5", pushing 300 or so) fell out of the twin! Now, PC has come up with a new style of beds for the Fords, (you can see in the brochure, or Ron's photos) but can't be installed in the Sprinter. So, we got the air mattress --- what an experience!!! There have been many threads on these things, but the short story is they are just uncomfortable. (I'm being kind!!) so now we're going back to the older style, electric sofa bed, and using memory foam to get as much comfort as we can. You're right, each style/size RV has some drawback -- however, I'm hoping this new arrangement is better than a tent! (As far as I'm concerned, the tent is more comfortable than the airmattress!)
Anyway, good luck in finding what you want -- as you know, I'm pretty damn close!!!
Best,
Jack
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Sherman --- Welcome to the "RV Purchase club", and difficulties associated with same!!! As I've said, I've had 3 --2 in the last 2 years, and hopefully this is it!!!
The barrel chair in the my 2350 (2006) was bolted down with a seat belt. The new "euro chairs" options (which are great) are on a ring which is secured to the floor with a clamp, and immovable when underway. The idea of a table with the chair is a good one -- and not to confuse you further, that's why we went to the 2400 - 2 euro chairs, with a "cocktail" or work table between - is great for happy hour!
I too, researched the bed situation in other RVs, and, while somewhat appealing, the fit & finish in them turned me off. (Sounding like a broken record!) With all 3 RVs the bed has been an issue - I mentioned the corner bed pproblems in the 2350, and with your size, I would be surprised if you and DW would be comfortable - like Bob (rmmpe). With the twin beds, I kept hitting the wall/window, and Linda found the shorter bed a little short, and on a "boys" camping trip a friend (6'5", pushing 300 or so) fell out of the twin! Now, PC has come up with a new style of beds for the Fords, (you can see in the brochure, or Ron's photos) but can't be installed in the Sprinter. So, we got the air mattress --- what an experience!!! There have been many threads on these things, but the short story is they are just uncomfortable. (I'm being kind!!) so now we're going back to the older style, electric sofa bed, and using memory foam to get as much comfort as we can. You're right, each style/size RV has some drawback -- however, I'm hoping this new arrangement is better than a tent! (As far as I'm concerned, the tent is more comfortable than the airmattress!)
Anyway, good luck in finding what you want -- as you know, I'm pretty damn close!!!
Best,
Jack
pyho
Just kidding!
Let me see if I got this straight -- there are at least three (3) sofa beds:
1) A new style for the Ford-based PCs only.
2) An air mattress that was installed in both the Ford and Sprinter-based rigs, now Sprinter only.
3) The older style electric sofa bed, that presumably was installed in both the Ford and Sprinter-based PCs.
WRT #1 -- I thought the coaches were the same regardless of the chassis they're built on. Why won't the new style fit in the Sprinter-based PC's?
WRT #2 -- From what I've read here and elsewhere, the air beds are very unpopular. Any idea why PC and other RV mfrs continue to use them?
WRT #3 -- I take it this is your second choice (after #1) since you must use a memory foam topper to make it comfortable, is that right? Which model years of the Sprinter-based 2350 used this sofa? When did PC switch to the air mattress and why?
I take it the Euro chairs can be swiveled/rotated when stationary. What makes them immovable while underway? I like the fact that they have a table in between them -- that makes up for not having a dinette, and is probably more comfortable than most dinettes.
My wife would really like to have beds for 3 people (minimum) and preferably 4. I don't envision us doing a lot of overnight trips with other people, but I suppose you never know. In any case, that means that the 2400 is pretty much out. Otherwise, it would be on the short list. I like the more open floor plan and the shower with the tub base. If the drawings in the PC brochure are to scale the fridge appears larger, and the wardrobe is clearly much larger. There is also a pantry, which the 2350 doesn't have.
If it weren't for the air mattress, I'd probably try to convince my wife to at least consider the 2400. IMHO, the owner of a new RV should not have to go to the trouble and expense of replacing the sofa bed in order to be comfortable.
Even if the 2400 came with a comfortable sofa bed, they do have the drawback of having to be made every night and torn down every morning. Not the end of the world, but having a fixed bed does have advantages -- perhaps not enough to replace the advantages of the 2400 that I mentioned above though.
Where do you plan to store the memory foam?
Thanks!
Sherman
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Sherman,
How far are you from the town of Mendon, MA? I ask because there is a former Phoenix USA dealer there that has a 2007 2350 and a 2008 2400 that you could size up. I think both have slideouts. Both were never titled and may still carry some sort of new warranties. They might be considered demonstrators. Click Here To Get To His Website. Then Click On Inventory (http://www.eastacresrv.com) We special ordered our 2350 from him in 2007. Don Keller the one and only owner/employee is a great guy to talk with. He might be over 80 years old and has strong morals, very good ethics. He might give you a great deal on one of his 2 PCs. I would not look at his advertised prices. Just pay a visit and see if either fit you two perfectly. If you are seriously interested, then try and work a deal with Don. If you can't agree on a price, then you at least are better educated with PCs in general, and very much educated on those two specific models.
Your visit there could help you in making a decision on what to order direct from the factory, or maybe even drop the PC line altogether.
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Sherman,
How far are you from the town of Mendon, MA? I ask because there is a former Phoenix USA dealer there that has a 2007 2350 and a 2008 2400 that you could size up. I think both have slideouts. Both were never titled and may still carry some sort of new warranties. They might be considered demonstrators. Click Here To Get To His Website. Then Click On Inventory (http://www.eastacresrv.com) We special ordered our 2350 from him in 2007. Don Keller the one and only owner/employee is a great guy to talk with. He might be over 80 years old and has strong morals, very good ethics. He might give you a great deal on one of his 2 PCs. I would not look at his advertised prices. Just pay a visit and see if either fit you two perfectly. If you are seriously interested, then try and work a deal with Don. If you can't agree on a price, then you at least are better educated with PCs in general, and very much educated on those two specific models.
Your visit there could help you in making a decision on what to order direct from the factory, or maybe even drop the PC line altogether.
Great suggestion Ron, thank you!
I just went to Don's site and realized that I'd been there before in my travels. Both of those rigs look nice. They have most of the options we're interested in.
I see they both have the electric sofa bed. Is it safe to assume that bed is more comfortable than the newer air mattress that very few people seem to like (mentioned above)? As I said, I'd be willing to consider the 2400 if the sofa bed is comfortable, or can at least be made comfortable with a memory foam topper. One question I have for those who use memory foam is where they store it during the day. Somewhere recently I read a post by someone who made up their own fitted pocket sheet for their memory foam. That seems like a good idea -- anything to make setting up the bed easier. I'm not sure DW would go for it though. I like the two comfy looking chairs with the beautiful solid-wood table -- that may be better than a dinette.
If we get a 2350, we'd want the dinette since as far as I know there's no optional table with a chair that faces forward.
So...I suppose at this point I need to see if DW will go for the 2400. If so, we might go up to MA and see Don. We're still leaning heavily toward the Sprinter-based rigs, but as you say, at the very least we'd be better educated -- and who knows, he might make us an offer that we can't refuse. ;-)
I'm still curious about the dinettes in the 2350 and 2400. How many different dinettes are there? The dinette bed in your 2007 2350 is a decent size (for most folks anyway). Is the dinette you have available in a slide, or are all of the dinettes in slides the smaller ones?
Thanks,
Sherman
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HI Sherman...
Ron's suggestion is a good one -- you might not take the sprinter afterall. And, it'll give you a chance to compare both models.
You have the order correct on the sofa beds - I have no idea why they switched, but I would imagine the air mattress was supposed to be more comfortable than the electric. The new style beds won't work in the sprinter, I am told, because the sprinter height is greater and when the new bed is extended it doesn't rest on the floor. I'm hopefully optimistic about this new modification -- we'll see. and, you are right, it's a shame to have to modify something on a new rig, but the air mattress is awful...both to lie on and open/close.
I'm outta here --- all the best,
Jack
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HI Sherman...
Ron's suggestion is a good one -- you might not take the sprinter afterall. And, it'll give you a chance to compare both models.
You have the order correct on the sofa beds - I have no idea why they switched, but I would imagine the air mattress was supposed to be more comfortable than the electric. The new style beds won't work in the sprinter, I am told, because the sprinter height is greater and when the new bed is extended it doesn't rest on the floor. I'm hopefully optimistic about this new modification -- we'll see. and, you are right, it's a shame to have to modify something on a new rig, but the air mattress is awful...both to lie on and open/close.
I'm outta here --- all the best,
Jack
Thanks Jack!
You know, I really wish PC would make brochures, specs, and info for previous models available on their website. As it is, I'm having a hard time determining which dinettes, sofas, chairs, etc, are/were available in the various model year 2350 and 2400 coaches on the two chassis (Ford and Sprinter).
Having that info would make it much easier for me to make a decision. I realize that PC is primarily interested in selling new rigs but they do sell used as well. Regardless of where we buy, even if we buy a used PC it will likely help them because from what I've read here and elsewhere, PC owners generally stick with PC -- they often sell one model and buy another.
If anyone can tell me where I can find comprehensive info on the 2350 and 2400 on both chassis I would very much appreciate it.
Thanks again,
Sherman
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Sherman, I emailed you a TON of data, what I have on some previous PC model years, and Chassis years as well.
51MB in all. I hope your email server can handle it. Let me know if you get 7 emails from me. The first email of the 2007 PC brochure by itself can be deleted. I later saw I had all 6 sheets in one PDF file so I resent it along with the 2011 brochure.
Oh boy, the 2009 Brochure just bouced back because it is 16.4MB, more than I am allowed to send from here. Compressed, it is still too big. Sorry about that.
So you should get 5 good emails with 44MB of chassis and PC data.
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Sherman, I emailed you a TON of data, what I have on some previous PC model years, and Chassis years as well.
51MB in all. I hope your email server can handle it. Let me know if you get 7 emails from me. The first email of the 2007 PC brochure by itself can be deleted. I later saw I had all 6 sheets in one PDF file so I resent it along with the 2011 brochure.
Oh boy, the 2009 Brochure just bouced back because it is 16.4MB, more than I am allowed to send from here. Compressed, it is still too big. Sorry about that.
So you should get 5 good emails with 44MB of chassis and PC data.
That's wonderful Ron, thank you so much!
I just sent you a couple replies with questions re: the Sani-Con system (200 feet vs. 20 feet discrepancy) and the "suggested retail pricing".
I really appreciate you going to all of the trouble to send all of that to me.
Is there any way it could be posted here? Is there a reference section or something?
It figures that the 2009 brochure would bounce back. That's one that I'm very interested in. Do you think if you sent it to my Gmail address it would go through? Or perhaps we could use Box.net? I have 50GB of free storage there, but I've never set up a file for others to upload to. First time for everything I guess... ;-)
We're still leaning toward the Sprinter and IIRC you said that 2009 was the first year PC used the Sprinter so that would be a good choice for us -- relatively new but old enough to hopefully have some depreciation -- and then immediately stop depreciating after we buy it. ;-) Of course we could end up with a 2009 on a E-350 also.
I can see why you have such a high "helpful" rating Ron, thanks again for your effort. You should bill PC for your time!
Sherman
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DW and I seem to have things narrowed down.
The 2400 is still out -- she wants a rig that sleeps at least 3, preferably 4.
She also wants a slide.
So...we're still focused on the 2350 on the Sprinter chassis (unless we find one on a E-350 for a fire sale price).
The only major item we have left to determine is sofa or dinette? We'd prefer a dinette, but we need the larger dinette (like Ron has in his 2007 2350) for the extra bed, and I don't think it is available with a slide. If the only dinette available with a slide is the smaller one, then we'll have to go with the sofa.
Can anyone tell me if the larger dinette is/was available in a slide?
If not, then I gather from the posts above that we'd want to avoid the air mattress at all costs and look for the electric sofa bed. In which model year did PC switch to the air mattress?
Question re: the electric sofa -- can it be operated manually in the event of a mechanical or electrical failure?
Once the dinette/sofa bed question has been decided, then all that's left (I think) is to look at the list of available options, make a list of those we're interested in, and separate those items into two groups -- those that can be added at any time, and those that must be installed during the factory assembly process.
Thanks!
Sherman
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Let me make one suggestion. We have a 2006 PC 2551 with the electric sofa in a slide out. It is a passably comfortable seat and bed, but not outstanding in either position. You could probably have any RV sofa installed in a new unit that will fit and there are a lot of sofa beds in the market place. You might want to see what's out there and broaden your choices.
Jerry
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Jerry has a good point -- I was going to suggest the same -- if you want to sleep 3 or 4, I really don't think the 2350 or 2400 is for you, but you will have to see for yourself....the 2551, or 2552 are great rigs ----
The electric sofa does not have a manual back up, but it is controlled by a rocker switch, and wires can be easily reversed or jumped if it fails. I carried, and still have, a spare, since I did get caught in our first experience with the 2350 - the switch failed with the sofa extended -learned a lesson pretty quick! (nod). Also, I think they are using a heaver duty switch in current models.
Jack
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Sherman,
I emailed you the pdf of the 2009 brochure in 3 separate sections. You can reassemble it back into one brochure on your computer.
It s an 11 page brochure. For some reason pages 10 and 11 are massively MB'd compared to pages 1 thru 9. I tried to reduce them, but did not have any luck yet.
To the general community, if you want a copy of the 2007, 2009, or 2011 brochures in pdf, give me your email through my profile and I'll email them to you as well.
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Let me make one suggestion. We have a 2006 PC 2551 with the electric sofa in a slide out. It is a passably comfortable seat and bed, but not outstanding in either position. You could probably have any RV sofa installed in a new unit that will fit and there are a lot of sofa beds in the market place. You might want to see what's out there and broaden your choices.
Jerry
Great idea Jerry, thank you!
I'd rather not have to replace the sofa in a brand new (or almost new) RV, but at least I know it's a possibility.
Sherman
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Jerry has a good point -- I was going to suggest the same -- if you want to sleep 3 or 4, I really don't think the 2350 or 2400 is for you, but you will have to see for yourself....the 2551, or 2552 are great rigs ----
The electric sofa does not have a manual back up, but it is controlled by a rocker switch, and wires can be easily reversed or jumped if it fails. I carried, and still have, a spare, since I did get caught in our first experience with the 2350 - the switch failed with the sofa extended -learned a lesson pretty quick! (nod). Also, I think they are using a heaver duty switch in current models.
Jack
Hmmm...
I'm a technician so I'm not overly concerned with problems like this, but if there's no way to manually operate the sofa bed I have to wonder how common failures other than the switch are? The motor for example.
Sherman
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Still wondering -- is the 2350 w/slide on the Sprinter chassis limited to the sofa bed or smaller dinette?
When did PC switch from the electric sofa to the one with an air mattress?
Thanks!
Sherman
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Your post has it backwards. They switched from the air mattress to the electric sofa-- and I think it was in 2011. Saw a new 2350 Sprinter with slide and sofa at the Good Sam Rally in Phoenix today - nice rig. You should call Stuart and make a deal before it's sold.
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Your post has it backwards. They switched from the air mattress to the electric sofa-- and I think it was in 2011. Saw a new 2350 Sprinter with slide and sofa at the Good Sam Rally in Phoenix today - nice rig. You should call Stuart and make a deal before it's sold.
Well, now I'm more confused than before!
I was just looking at the 2007 and 2009 PC brochures that Ron emailed to me. Under "Popular Options" both say "slide-out w/electric sofa".
What am I missing?
Also, WRT my posts above: To phrase what we're looking for another way -- if possible, we'd like to have the 2350 w/slide on a Sprinter chassis with the larger dinette -- the one that Ron has in his 2350 (w/no slide).
Ron said his dinette makes into a bed that is 71 inches long. That's ok (for most folks), but anything much shorter would only be good for children.
If the only dinette that's available with the slide is smaller than that, we'll go with the sofa.
Sherman
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Sherman,
It is absolutely impossible to place the size dinette I have in the slide-out of "Any" 2350 (and many other models) Ford or Sprinter. The slide-out wall thickness & interior trim (both sides) of the slide-out eats up many inches of linear wall. Also the transition/angled wall directly behind the driver cannot get utilized. Slide-outs of every kind cannot utilize that angled wall.
The older models with smaller slide-out, the fridge is stationary. My dinette butts right up against the fridge and on the opposite end, it utilizes half of the angled wall. With slide-outs, that angled wall space is sometimes utilized with creative cabinetry.
The newer models with larger slide-out, the fridge is inside the slide-out, therefore gets shifted maybe 4 to 5 inches toward the driver which yields the same losses in wall space.
Study the floor plans of the 2350 with and without a slide- out. Note how the no-slide dinette utilizes the angled wall, but the slide-out couch cannot. This is how and why my dinette is bigger than it could be in any slide-out.
It might be more clear if you closely study the pictures of my dinette directly behind the driver HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,28.0.html). It is hard to see the wall behind the driver is angled, but it is angled all the way to the dinette window. The backrest cushion there is smaller than the cushion on the other side. A very small sacrifice for a nice size dinette.
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Sherman,
It is absolutely impossible to place the size dinette I have in the slide-out of "Any" 2350 (and many other models) Ford or Sprinter. The slide-out wall thickness & interior trim (both sides) of the slide-out eats up many inches of linear wall. Also the transition/angled wall directly behind the driver cannot get utilized. Slide-outs of every kind cannot utilize that angled wall.
The older models with smaller slide-out, the fridge is stationary. My dinette butts right up against the fridge and on the opposite end, it utilizes half of the angled wall. With slide-outs, that angled wall space is sometimes utilized with creative cabinetry.
The newer models with larger slide-out, the fridge is inside the slide-out, therefore gets shifted maybe 4 to 5 inches toward the driver which yields the same losses in wall space.
Study the floor plans of the 2350 with and without a slide- out. Note how the no-slide dinette utilizes the angled wall, but the slide-out couch cannot. This is how and why my dinette is bigger than it could be in any slide-out.
It might be more clear if you closely study the pictures of my dinette directly behind the driver HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,28.0.html). It is hard to see the wall behind the driver is angled, but it is angled all the way to the dinette window. The backrest cushion there is smaller than the cushion on the other side. A very small sacrifice for a nice size dinette.
Thanks Ron, that's what I was afraid of. Looks like we'll have to give up on the larger dinette, because DW definitely wants a slide.
The smaller dinette in the slide won't give us the extra bed we need, so we'll have to settle for the electric sofa/bed.
It's really too bad. I was thinking about using the dinette the same way you and your wife do -- as a place to "...set up her lap top computer [and have] a drink & a snack... to play computer games or manipulate vacation pictures & videos, all done while watching the world go by. Not possible with a slide out couch."
I have a few questions:
You said, "...the barrel chair pivots and moves forward and backward. It can be positioned to utilize the dining table without too much of a reach." -- How is this possible? That chair is secured to the floor, right?
You said, "...it might be worth considering the "UN-Documented" option of getting the single bed located over the front cab." -- I'm assuming that this is not possible with the Sprinter chassis, correct?
Gradygal said, "The 2551 has twin beds-GREAT-and a lower tv. And a terribly hard ride." -- Why the extra-hard ride? Is the E-450 suspension that much stiffer? (PS: I really like the two captain's chairs and table idea).
You said, "But I do have to admit, the dinette is not something to sit on for hours on-end. I understand why some people like Judi & George ordered theirs with two captain chairs and a swing-up table. But that does sacrifice the two bench seat storage areas and the single convert-a-bed." -- Of course gradygal has the 2551 -- are you saying that it is possible to exchange the dinette or the sofa/bed in the _2350_ for two chairs and a table? That would be sweet -- if we could get the 'undocumented' single bunk over the cab with a Sprinter chassis. The bunk would replace the lost sleeping area, but we would (as you said) be giving up storage space. That might be a worthwhile trade-off though.
You said, "With our 2350, we replaced the uncomfortable barrel chair by the entry door with a 3rd captain seat." -- That's also a good idea. The only thing missing is a table. Unfortunately it looks like there's no room for one.
Finally, you said, "BTW: The slideout today with the fridge included weighs over 500 pounds more than one without a slideout. You would have much less concern of over-loading the chassis, especially a Sprinter." -- 500 pounds?! That's a huge amount of additional weight. I was told that in the WGO View/Navion a slide might add 200 to 250 pounds. Any idea why there's such a difference in the weight of the slides between WGO and PC? Since we will almost certainly be getting a Sprinter chassis, weight is a big concern. Of course regardless of the chassis used, weight is the enemy. Extra weight negatively affects braking, handling, acceleration, cornering, and fuel efficiency. I'm hoping that 500 pound figure is a bit high.
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Your post has it backwards. They switched from the air mattress to the electric sofa-- and I think it was in 2011. Saw a new 2350 Sprinter with slide and sofa at the Good Sam Rally in Phoenix today - nice rig. You should call Stuart and make a deal before it's sold.
Well, now I'm more confused than before!
I was just looking at the 2007 and 2009 PC brochures that Ron emailed to me. Under "Popular Options" both say "slide-out w/electric sofa".
What am I missing?
Sherman
When we were shopping for our 2010, we looked at 2009 models also. 2010 was the first year for the sofa/bed with air mattress (manual), the 2009 had an electric sofa/bed. I believe the current split electric sofa/bed came out in 2012, which means the air mattress sofa/bed is found only on 2010 and 2011 models. I suggest a call to the factory to confirm this.
We compared the 2009 electric sofa/bed to the 2010 sofa/bed with air mattress and quickly decided that the 2010 sofa/bed was the one for us. The 2010 was more comfortable for us to sit on and also the 2009 had a longer sitting cushion that took up about 8 inches more of floor space. Also, the 2010 air mattress sofa/bed has a large drawer under it that we find very useful. We travel by ourselves except for the few days a year that we make a short trip with grandkids, the air mattress is fine for the grandkids, but we would't want to sleep on it. We haven't seen the new split electric sofa/bed so have no opinion on it.
Bob
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Your post has it backwards. They switched from the air mattress to the electric sofa-- and I think it was in 2011. Saw a new 2350 Sprinter with slide and sofa at the Good Sam Rally in Phoenix today - nice rig. You should call Stuart and make a deal before it's sold.
Well, now I'm more confused than before!
I was just looking at the 2007 and 2009 PC brochures that Ron emailed to me. Under "Popular Options" both say "slide-out w/electric sofa".
What am I missing?
Sherman
When we were shopping for our 2010, we looked at 2009 models also. 2010 was the first year for the sofa/bed with air mattress (manual), the 2009 had an electric sofa/bed. I believe the current split electric sofa/bed came out in 2012, which means the air mattress sofa/bed is found only on 2010 and 2011 models. I suggest a call to the factory to confirm this.
We compared the 2009 electric sofa/bed to the 2010 sofa/bed with air mattress and quickly decided that the 2010 sofa/bed was the one for us. The 2010 was more comfortable for us to sit on and also the 2009 had a longer sitting cushion that took up about 8 inches more of floor space. Also, the 2010 air mattress sofa/bed has a large drawer under it that we find very useful. We travel by ourselves except for the few days a year that we make a short trip with grandkids, the air mattress is fine for the grandkids, but we would't want to sleep on it. We haven't seen the new split electric sofa/bed so have no opinion on it.
Bob
Thanks Bob! That makes sense, and corresponds with the post from lmichael.
Regarding the air mattress, I'm sure it's fine for kids (they can sleep almost anywhere!) but we're looking for a bed that will be comfortable for an adult because there's a _chance_ that my wife may get tired of me climbing over her in the middle of the night. ;-) So, one of us may end up sleeping on the sofa bed. Also, we may occasionally have another adult with us.
Just to clarify, when you say the 2009 had a longer sitting cushion, you mean from front to back (your knees to your back), is that correct? If so, 8" seems like a very large difference to me -- as if one sofa has cushions that are too deep and/or the other is too shallow.
Also, you said the 2010 sofa/bed has a large drawer -- does that mean the 2009 and earlier electric sofa/bed does not? If so, that's a significant drawback.
Finally, question for all -- I'm sort of assuming that no matter what sort of additional bed we get (sofa/bed, dinette, 'undocumented' cab-over bunk) we will need to add a high-quality memory foam topper to make it truly comfortable. Hopefully that's all that will be required. My question is -- would either of the two beds we're talking about be more conducive to using a memory foam topper? I'm thinking the electric sofa/bed because of the cushions, but I haven't seen the air mattress sofa. What is left when the air mattress is removed?
Thanks for your help!
Sherman
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Thanks Bob! That makes sense, and corresponds with the post from lmichael.
Just to clarify, when you say the 2009 had a longer sitting cushion, you mean from front to back (your knees to your back), is that correct? If so, 8" seems like a very large difference to me -- as if one sofa has cushions that are too deep and/or the other is too shallow.
Also, you said the 2010 sofa/bed has a large drawer -- does that mean the 2009 and earlier electric sofa/bed does not? If so, that's a significant drawback.
Finally, question for all -- I'm sort of assuming that no matter what sort of additional bed we get (sofa/bed, dinette, 'undocumented' cab-over bunk) we will need to add a high-quality memory foam topper to make it truly comfortable. Hopefully that's all that will be required. My question is -- would either of the two beds we're talking about be more conducive to using a memory foam topper? I'm thinking the electric sofa/bed because of the cushions, but I haven't seen the air mattress sofa. What is left when the air mattress is removed?
Thanks for your help!
Sherman
Sherman,
Overall they measured 6 - 8 inches different from the front of the sofa seat cushion to the face of the kitched cabinet directly across, the 2009 seat cushion felt too long to us and the 2010 could be a little longer - neither was perfect but the 2010 was more comfortable for us to sit on. The extra depth also come from the bed cushion portion that gets folded up behind the back of the sofa pushing the whole assy out.
The big drawer under the 2010 is very useful, the new 2012 split electric sofa/bed does not have a drawer and I believe the 2009 does not have one either, maybe an owner can confirm, or call the factory.
We put 2 inch memory foam toppers on the twin bed foam mattresses in our 2551, very comfortable. I don't know how the memory foam topper would work over the sofa air mattress. If you don't use the air mattress, there is a fabric covered surface that could support some kind of foam mattress, but the problem would be where to store it. There is some room behind the sofa back that might hold a thin foam mattress. I recall that others here have replaced the factory air mattress with a higher quality air mattress, maybe that is the better solution.
Bob
EDIT,
I was just looking at photos of various units on the PC website, you can see the difference in how far the seat cushions protrude out beyond the slide face frame next to the seat cushion, very obvious. Look for a used PC in the sold inventory of the year you are interested in.
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Thanks Bob! That makes sense, and corresponds with the post from lmichael.
Just to clarify, when you say the 2009 had a longer sitting cushion, you mean from front to back (your knees to your back), is that correct? If so, 8" seems like a very large difference to me -- as if one sofa has cushions that are too deep and/or the other is too shallow.
Also, you said the 2010 sofa/bed has a large drawer -- does that mean the 2009 and earlier electric sofa/bed does not? If so, that's a significant drawback.
Finally, question for all -- I'm sort of assuming that no matter what sort of additional bed we get (sofa/bed, dinette, 'undocumented' cab-over bunk) we will need to add a high-quality memory foam topper to make it truly comfortable. Hopefully that's all that will be required. My question is -- would either of the two beds we're talking about be more conducive to using a memory foam topper? I'm thinking the electric sofa/bed because of the cushions, but I haven't seen the air mattress sofa. What is left when the air mattress is removed?
Thanks for your help!
Sherman
Sherman,
Overall they measured 6 - 8 inches different from the front of the sofa seat cushion to the face of the kitched cabinet directly across, the 2009 seat cushion felt too long to us and the 2010 could be a little longer - neither was perfect but the 2010 was more comfortable for us to sit on. The extra depth also come from the bed cushion portion that gets folded up behind the back of the sofa pushing the whole assy out.
The big drawer under the 2010 is very useful, the new 2012 split electric sofa/bed does not have a drawer and I believe the 2009 does not have one either, maybe an owner can confirm, or call the factory.
We put 2 inch memory foam toppers on the twin bed foam mattresses in our 2551, very comfortable. I don't know how the memory foam topper would work over the sofa air mattress. If you don't use the air mattress, there is a fabric covered surface that could support some kind of foam mattress, but the problem would be where to store it. There is some room behind the sofa back that might hold a thin foam mattress. I recall that others here have replaced the factory air mattress with a higher quality air mattress, maybe that is the better solution.
Bob
EDIT,
I was just looking at photos of various units on the PC website, you can see the difference in how far the seat cushions protrude out beyond the slide face frame next to the seat cushion, very obvious. Look for a used PC in the sold inventory of the year you are interested in.
Good suggestion to look at the photos of used rigs on PC's website. The sofa in the 2010 2551 that's been sold definitely does not stick out as far as the sofa in the 2007 2350 that's still for sale. Interestingly though, the sofa in the 2010 2350 that's for sale also sticks out quite far.
In any case, I get what you are saying and I appreciate you pointing out the extra storage space under the sofa with the air mattress.
I've never found an air mattress that was truly comfortable. We use a Tempur-Pedic at home, so we'll probably end up usig a memory foam topper on the electric sofa, because the sofa with the air mattress would require a full foam mattress with would be hard to deal with and store. We'll likely replace the mattress on the corner bed with memory foam as well.
Sherman
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1) You said, "...the barrel chair pivots and moves forward and backward. It can be positioned to utilize the dining table without too much of a reach." -- How is this possible? That chair is secured to the floor, right?
2) You said, "...it might be worth considering the "UN-Documented" option of getting the single bed located over the front cab." -- I'm assuming that this is not possible with the Sprinter chassis, correct?
3) Gradygal said, "The 2551 has twin beds-GREAT-and a lower tv. And a terribly hard ride." -- Why the extra-hard ride? Is the E-450 suspension that much stiffer? (PS: I really like the two captain's chairs and table idea).
4) if we could get the 'undocumented' single bunk over the cab with a Sprinter chassis. The bunk would replace the lost sleeping area, but we would (as you said) be giving up storage space. That might be a worthwhile trade-off though.
1) Our 3rd captain seat is bolted to the floor. It has an adjustment to pull forward, regardless of the direction it faces. So if you face the table with the seat, pull forward to the table. You cannot eat at our dinette, but you can easily place things there while "lap" eating.
2) The undocumented over-the-cab bed would be for a small child, maybe two if they get along. I don't think it could accomodate an adult. And you are correct in assuming the Sprinter's head clearence would be very confining.
3) Understand the E450 is used on the largest of class-C motor homes. So for a lighter weighted smaller 2551, there is excessive CCC margin, so the ride would naturally be rougher due to the stiffness of the suspension. Did you ever drive a box truck, empty, and full? Empty is jarring, full is a cushy ride. The same principle here.
4) The undocumented over-cab bed would offer a massive open storage area, so much more than usual because the chassis roof would not be cut away. You get a very strong front cab for roll-over protection, but give up the easy pass-thru and also give up the place to mount a TV. The over-all interior would surely feel more confining.
I wonder if someone ever requested that front area to be full size (no pass-thru cutout) enclosed with cabinet doors. That would make a huge enclosed storage area.
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sajohnson, you may be over thinking this whole issue. I know the sleeping arrangement is important, but it's not the most important consideration when buying a particular rv. My 2010 2350 couch has the air mattress. Not comfortable and prone to leaks. The mattress on the corner bed has an angle on one side/end that I would imagine would make it rather expensive to have another mattress made. Yesterday I laid on the new electric sofa that is constructed with memory foam, and it was very comfortable. The storage under my existing sofa is great considering the limited storage in the 2350, but I would trade it for the comfort of the new memory foam couch. In fact, I did. I purchased a new 2552--not just for the memory foam couch, but it was a consideration. I would suggest you look at your overall rv needs, and buy one that matches most of them. For the price, pc can't be beat. I love the driveability of my 2350, comfort and overall performance--and I have no regrets buying it. We're going full-time and wanted a little more room/storage, so we purchased the 2552. I could just as easily stayed with the 2350 and been very satisfied. My advice--call Stuart.
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Good suggestion to look at the photos of used rigs on PC's website. The sofa in the 2010 2551 that's been sold definitely does not stick out as far as the sofa in the 2007 2350 that's still for sale. Interestingly though, the sofa in the 2010 2350 that's for sale also sticks out quite far.
Sherman
Sherman,
I saw that 2010 2350 and concluded that they replaced the original air matress sofa/bed with a new 2012 split electric sofa/bed. You can see it half extended in one of the photos.
Bob
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Good suggestion to look at the photos of used rigs on PC's website. The sofa in the 2010 2551 that's been sold definitely does not stick out as far as the sofa in the 2007 2350 that's still for sale. Interestingly though, the sofa in the 2010 2350 that's for sale also sticks out quite far.
Sherman
Sherman,
I saw that 2010 2350 and concluded that they replaced the original air matress sofa/bed with a new 2012 split electric sofa/bed. You can see it half extended in one of the photos.
Bob
That's one mystery solved. Thanks Bob!
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sajohnson, you may be over thinking this whole issue. I know the sleeping arrangement is important, but it's not the most important consideration when buying a particular rv. My 2010 2350 couch has the air mattress. Not comfortable and prone to leaks. The mattress on the corner bed has an angle on one side/end that I would imagine would make it rather expensive to have another mattress made. Yesterday I laid on the new electric sofa that is constructed with memory foam, and it was very comfortable. The storage under my existing sofa is great considering the limited storage in the 2350, but I would trade it for the comfort of the new memory foam couch. In fact, I did. I purchased a new 2552--not just for the memory foam couch, but it was a consideration. I would suggest you look at your overall rv needs, and buy one that matches most of them. For the price, pc can't be beat. I love the driveability of my 2350, comfort and overall performance--and I have no regrets buying it. We're going full-time and wanted a little more room/storage, so we purchased the 2552. I could just as easily stayed with the 2350 and been very satisfied. My advice--call Stuart.
I do have a tendency to over-think purchases -- and the more expensive they are, the more focused I become. It's just my nature.
I've been researching and comparing the various class B+/C RVs for about 3 years now, since before I retired. One of the primary reasons my wife and I first got serious about buying a RV was because we found that more often than not, neither of us could get a good night's sleep at hotels or in the homes of friends and family. I imagine part of the reason is age related, and partly because we've had a Tempur-Pedic mattress for years now and we're used to sleeping on it. Our thinking was/is that we can modify our RV to be our own portable efficiency apartment, so we can be comfortable almost anywhere. Of course it would be great if the rig comes with good quality memory foam mattresses, but that's something that can be changed if necessary. Especially with any fixed/permanent bed (corner, twin, walk-around queen). Using toppers on sofa beds and dinette beds is a bit more complicated as they add to the set-up/tear-down procedure and they must be stored somewhere.
WRT the corner being cut off the corner bed mattress, there are several places online that sell memory foam mattresses and toppers. They will make them just about any size or shape, but memory foam is easy to cut, so if for some reason the extra charge for cutting the corner off is excessive, I'd just order the full size mattress (~50x76, IIRC) and cut it myself.
The new electric sofa sounds like it might be the best one yet. Of course there are many types and grades of memory foam (density, etc), but if it is comfortable without a topper that would be great. Certainly an option to keep in mind.
Believe me, over the last few years, my wife and I have discussed our needs and wants as well as the various options that are available over and over again. It may seem from my recent posts that my only concern is the sleeping arrangement. That's not the case at all, I just happen to be focused on that issue currently.
I know PC RVs are a good value -- that's why I'm spending so much time posting here. We were also considering the WGO View/Navion (first the 'J' model w/corner bed, and then the Profile/iQ with the walk-around queen in a rear slide) and spent a lot of time on the View-Navion Yahoo group to find out as much as I could about them from owners -- before buying one, either new or used. That's what I'm doing here. You'll see that I posted here quite a bit several months ago and then was gone for a while. That's because my wife and I were cautioned by several people about the corner bed and the 'crawling over factor'. We decided to try and find a RV of similar size to the 2350 with a walk-around queen. That turned out to limit our choices too much, so now we're back to the corner bed models -- and that led us back here to the 2350.
In any case, we are doing our best to find an RV that matches most of our needs (as you suggest) but I'm trying to make the right choice the first time. I can't afford to go through 3 or 4 RVs before finding the 'right' one -- especially if we end up buying new.
As we all know, there are a lot of variables and options to consider -- mfr; Ford or Sprinter chassis; length; floor plan; type of construction; windows; generator (LP, diesel, gas); inverter; fans; type/quality/size of shower; size of water and LP tanks; galley -- size/quality of sink, stove, fridge (two door or single door); dinette or sofa/bed; amount of interior and exterior storage; etc, etc...
I think we have it pretty well nailed down. The PC 2350 w/slide on the Sprinter chassis comes closest to what we're looking for, but I do need to iron out some details. I do plan to call Stuart in the near future but I'm trying to get as much info as I can first, so I'll have a good list of questions.
For example -- something that's been bothering me since it was mentioned is that the slide adds 500 pounds to the 2350. That much additional weight will take a serious bite out of the already limited CCC of the Sprinter chassis, and may force me to rethink the slide.
Sherman
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Hi Sherman,
It might help you to make up a sheet with a list of your requirements running down the page. Next to each requirement list what you think you would prefer and what you don't want. You seem to be going in circles on your requirement and this may help slow you down so you can make an informed decision. You are the first person I have ever seen that is worried about the weight of the slide out. Two guys lift the side out up and place it into the hole in the wall of the PC. Then the guy inside puts the refer and sofa or dinette in the slide. So how much does the slide weight? Maybe a couple hundred pounds, maybe 500 lbs with the dinette and the refer, both of which you are going to get anyway.
If I didn't tell you when you were here, you are always welcome to come back by to look at my PC and ask any question you have, try it on for size, or if you bring some cold ones and need to share with someone. Just give me a call or send an email. I too am retired so I am home during the day sometimes.
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Sherman --- also, bear in mind that the new, split electric sofa will not fit in the sprinter, if your still thinking along that line. I'm told the additional height of the Sprinter prevents the new style sofa from resting on the floor when extended. (Personally, I have trouble comprehending this, but that's what I'm told by Phoenix). so, they are having the original electric sofa bed (before the air mattress) made with extra memory foam. This should work. I hope so, because we can't (don't) use the RV now because of the sofa - very frustrating pyho
On your question about memory foam with the air mattress - we tried 2 inch, and it was still awful -- when the couch is opened, the sofa is reversed, so the underside (when closed) becomes the top of the "bed" - metal bar supports and all - the air mattress is supposed to compensate and provide cushioning - which it doesn't- even with a foam topper. I kept hitting the support bars, and I'm not a big man -- I can imagine someone larger would really have a problem.
Jack
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Sherman,
When you visit your family in Sycamore, IL be sure to stop by our house with your wife. It would be good for both of you to see an example of the "other" choice.
It is hard to determine the weight of a slide out.
I did ask that same question back in 2007, the days of the smaller slide out. I was told it would add 400 pounds to my 2350. The assumption that the larger slide out today adds an additional 100 pounds is conceivable, assuming the data given me is accurate.
I would assume the weight involves extra framing of the exterior wall, floor reinforcement, tracks, the awning topper, trim, gaskets, etc, etc, and the differences in furniture. The dinette weighs hardly anything. I think the heavist thing is the table itself.
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Hi Sherman,
It might help you to make up a sheet with a list of your requirements running down the page. Next to each requirement list what you think you would prefer and what you don't want. You seem to be going in circles on your requirement and this may help slow you down so you can make an informed decision. You are the first person I have ever seen that is worried about the weight of the slide out. Two guys lift the side out up and place it into the hole in the wall of the PC. Then the guy inside puts the refer and sofa or dinette in the slide. So how much does the slide weight? Maybe a couple hundred pounds, maybe 500 lbs with the dinette and the refer, both of which you are going to get anyway.
If I didn't tell you when you were here, you are always welcome to come back by to look at my PC and ask any question you have, try it on for size, or if you bring some cold ones and need to share with someone. Just give me a call or send an email. I too am retired so I am home during the day sometimes.
Thanks for the offer Tom, that's very generous, we may take you up on it! The friendly, helpful folks like yourself here on the PC forum are certainly a part of why I'm considering PC so strongly.
Good observation about going in circles -- I feel that way sometimes. Some of it is unavoidable though, or at least seems to be, because one change often leads to several others, which means re-evaluating much of what I thought had been resolved. For example -- as I mentioned above, several months ago we were very interested in the View Profile/Navion iQ -- we liked the exterior shape of the coach (no cab-over) and the walk-around queen in a rear slide. The more we looked at it though, the more drawbacks we found -- the galley leaves a lot to be desired (tiny almost unusable sink, the small 2 burner cook top w/glass cover [popular with many mfrs], and a single door fridge). Also, we plan to carry a lightweight "Enduro" (dual sport) motorcycle on a hitch-mounted carrier and got to thinking more about having to unload it in order to extend the slide and set up the bed. The newer models are actually worse in a coupe ways. Starting in 2011, WGO actually took a step back by making the shower smaller and shorter, and replacing the retractable door with a curtain. They also changed the cabinets and the door hardware (2010 and earlier had the marine-type 'push-to-lock' knobs).
For those reasons we gave up on the Profile/iQ and started looking at corner bed floor plans. We ended up here but were told by several people (here, and on other forums) that climbing over each other in the corner bed would get old and that we shouldn't give up on the walk-around queen bed idea. I don't just blindly follow any anonymous forum member's advice, but I heard this from several people who clearly were knowledgeable and had personal experience, so I figured we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the walk-around queen idea. Unfortunately, to get a queen in a PC means going to the 2700 (and it appears as though the 2900 & 2910 are more truly 'walk-around'). So PC was out, as were many/most mfrs, because if there's one requirement I've remained resolute about it's that the length of the rig should be no more than 25 feet. I think Mercedes may have a ~24.5 foot limit for their chassis anyway, because almost all Sprinter-based RVs seem to be 24'6" long. There really are very few rigs to choose from that are <25' and have a walk-around queen. After eliminating the Profile/iQ previously, we were left with the LTV Unity U24IB and one or two others (maybe Coach House?). The U24IB is very nice in most ways, but it is expensive and it is a new design (so it's next impossible to find used). One thing I found curious was that although the LTV rigs are expensive, they use a single door fridge. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the single door refrigerators are similar to the inexpensive 'dorm' style fridges that do not have a true, dedicated freezer. Also, they use what they call an "FRP flexroof". I haven't investigated that, but I've been told by several people that a one-piece fiberglass roof is best.
Anyway, that's the history. As we've researched and learned more about what's available and owners' likes and dislikes we've gone off on a few tangents but I've ended up back here.
It may not seem like it, but we have pretty well nailed down what is important to us. There is very little about the 2350 that I wish I could change, but the second bed is one of those things. I'd like a dinette/bed that uses memory foam -- or maybe better yet, a sofa/bed and the two swivel chairs and flip-up table like in the 2400 (but there's not enough room in the 2350). Even one chair facing forward w/table would be acceptable. My wife agrees, but she also wants a slide and an extra bed for one or two adults. That limits us to the sofa bed. Since the sofa/bed is something that can be changed if necessary I guess I'll set that aside for now.
Something that obviously can't be changed is the weight of the slide. I'm going to talk with Stuart about that. The reason I'm concerned about it (and others are not) is that the GVWR of the Sprinter is almost 1,500 lbs less than the E-350. All PC's are of course built on the Ford chassis, and even the vast majority of 2350/2400 rigs use the Ford E-350 instead of the Sprinter. I know many mfrs have trouble with very limited CCC in their Sprinter-based RVs. Of course, almost all other mfrs also put slides in their Sprinter-based rigs. With many of them, there's no option to eliminate the slide so there's no point in even thinking about it -- the CCC is either adequate for the potential buyer or it's not. With PC I have a choice -- and it's an irreversible choice. If it turns out that we can't safely haul what we want with the limited CCC of the Sprinter-based 2350 with the slide then we have a serious choice to make -- give up carrying the bike, give up the slide, or look elsewhere.
I'll give Stuart a call Monday.
Sherman
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About the rear corner bed. It really comes down to, having the person by the exit get out in order to allow the other to get out. With us, that comes to once overnight which we both find the need to visit the room next door. It works....just not ideal like at home. But so much better than us sleeping separate, and also sleeping in a cab-over where it's double trouble. The one person must get out like we do, but in the smaller rigs, you can't even sit upright to scooch over. That drove us crazy in our first tiny rig with cabover bed.
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Sherman --- also, bear in mind that the new, split electric sofa will not fit in the sprinter, if your still thinking along that line. I'm told the additional height of the Sprinter prevents the new style sofa from resting on the floor when extended. (Personally, I have trouble comprehending this, but that's what I'm told by Phoenix). so, they are having the original electric sofa bed (before the air mattress) made with extra memory foam. This should work. I hope so, because we can't (don't) use the RV now because of the sofa - very frustrating pyho
On your question about memory foam with the air mattress - we tried 2 inch, and it was still awful -- when the couch is opened, the sofa is reversed, so the underside (when closed) becomes the top of the "bed" - metal bar supports and all - the air mattress is supposed to compensate and provide cushioning - which it doesn't- even with a foam topper. I kept hitting the support bars, and I'm not a big man -- I can imagine someone larger would really have a problem.
Jack
Hi Jack,
I'm sorry to hear that the sofa bed w/ the air mattress is preventing you from using your 2400. I hope PC gets the replacement installed quickly.
You answered my question regarding using a memory foam topper on the sofa bed w/ the air mattress. I was actually wondering about removing the air mattress entirely replacing it with the memory foam but that clearly won't work. It sounds as though even a full-size memory foam mattress might not be enough with the metal support bars there.
We'll try to avoid the air mattress sofa bed -- or plan on replacing it if we find a rig with one that otherwise works for us.
I'm curious to know how your new sofa bed works out because my wife and I may want to get the same thing. It would be really nice to not have to deal with adding a memory foam topper to make the sofa bed comfortable. The bed would be easier to set up and tear down and we wouldn't have to worry about where to store the topper during the day.
Please give us an update when you get your new sofa bed!
Sherman
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About the rear corner bed. It really comes down to, having the person by the exit get out in order to allow the other to get out. With us, that comes to once overnight which we both find the need to visit the room next door. It works....just not ideal like at home. But so much better than us sleeping separate, and also sleeping in a cab-over where it's double trouble. The one person must get out like we do, but in the smaller rigs, you can't even sit upright to scooch over. That drove us crazy in our first tiny rig with cabover bed.
Yep, that's the conclusion we came to also. Everything else being equal (which of course it never is!) we'd prefer the walk-around queen -- but not enough to make the concessions that would be required. The corner bed floor plan was the first one that caught our eye back at the beginning of the RV quest.
My wife and I briefly considered twin beds as an alternative to the walk-around queen but IIRC there weren't any Sprinter-based class B+/C rigs with twin beds. I think WGO has a View with bunk beds, but that's as close as it gets. The RVs that have twin beds are usually larger and built on the Ford chassis with the V-10.
Also, as is the case with you and your wife, neither one of us is crazy about the idea of sleeping in separate beds a la "I Love Lucy". ;-)
As a practical matter, that may end up happening anyway, but at least with the corner bed we'll have the option to sleep in the same bed if we want to.
I hear you about the cab-over. I have no personal experience, and I've read posts from people who don't seem to mind sleeping in a cab-over bunk, but I've always thought of them as a bed for the kids or grandkids. I suppose for one adult, if the cab-over bunk had a comfortable mattress, it might be preferable to many sofa and dinette beds, but I don't like the idea of not being able to sit up. In any case, the cab-over bunk is a non-issue with the PC rigs, and I really wouldn't want an RV that had one -- certainly not one of those huge cab-overs that sticks out beyond the top edge of the windshield.
Onward and upward...I'm hoping to talk with Stuart on Monday.
Sherman
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Sherman,
When you visit your family in Sycamore, IL be sure to stop by our house with your wife. It would be good for both of you to see an example of the "other" choice.
It is hard to determine the weight of a slide out.
I did ask that same question back in 2007, the days of the smaller slide out. I was told it would add 400 pounds to my 2350. The assumption that the larger slide out today adds an additional 100 pounds is conceivable, assuming the data given me is accurate.
I would assume the weight involves extra framing of the exterior wall, floor reinforcement, tracks, the awning topper, trim, gaskets, etc, etc, and the differences in furniture. The dinette weighs hardly anything. I think the heavist thing is the table itself.
I'm hoping to get the numbers straight from the mothership on Monday.
The weight of the slide isn't as much of a concern as the CCC of the 2350 on the Sprinter. From my reading, I know that many Sprinter-based RVs have a CCC similar to that of a family sedan -- about 1,000 pounds. That's before subtracting the weight of any water in the tanks. My wife and I and the bike & carrier will weigh about 720+ pounds so the CCC may become an issue.
I'll report back with anything I learn from Stuart.
Sherman
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Sherman:
i know you have spent a ton of energy and time researching your potential big puchase and for that I salute you. I realize that you have a budget and a certain size RV that you are targeting but i would be concenred that you are really backing yourself into a corner and I would worry that you are not going to be happy. It sure appears that you have to get into at least a 25' rig to get what you appear to want and need. I have commented in the past regarding my feelings regarding the Sprinter chassis
All of us want to get as many MPG's as we can but I would really caution you about Sprinter MPG claims.....If you have full tanks, AC on, full wall slide, tires at recmended pressure, cruise set at 65 MPH, 2 adults, two bikes on the back you will not break 14 MPG I never did in 10,000 miles of driving a 2009 Monaco Covina 3.0L. I applaud you for doing the math regarding the CCC of the chassis and while you may be able to come in slighlthy under I will bet one of the axles will be over weight. PC makes a super product and I would do whatever to find a model within the PC family that will work for you. Best of luck. Thanks
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Sherman:
i know you have spent a ton of energy and time researching your potential big puchase and for that I salute you. I realize that you have a budget and a certain size RV that you are targeting but i would be concenred that you are really backing yourself into a corner and I would worry that you are not going to be happy. It sure appears that you have to get into at least a 25' rig to get what you appear to want and need. I have commented in the past regarding my feelings regarding the Sprinter chassis
All of us want to get as many MPG's as we can but I would really caution you about Sprinter MPG claims.....If you have full tanks, AC on, full wall slide, tires at recmended pressure, cruise set at 65 MPH, 2 adults, two bikes on the back you will not break 14 MPG I never did in 10,000 miles of driving a 2009 Monaco Covina 3.0L. I applaud you for doing the math regarding the CCC of the chassis and while you may be able to come in slighlthy under I will bet one of the axles will be over weight. PC makes a super product and I would do whatever to find a model within the PC family that will work for you. Best of luck. Thanks
Thanks for the input ragoodsp.
It is tough to get all of the 'needs' and most of the 'wants' in one rig, that's for sure.
It may sound funny but the most difficult purchase I've made prior to this was kitchen cabinets. There dozens, if not hundreds, of mfrs. Each mfr has multiple styles of cabinets. Each style comes in a variety of types of wood. Many of the different species of wood come in different finishes. Almost all styles have several grades (quality levels). _Then_ you get into the various sizes, types of shelves, dimensions, etc. That warped my little brain -- and there were fewer variables and much less money involved.
At this point we do have a pretty good idea of our needs vs. our wants -- what we can live with and what we can't. For example -- a walk-around queen would be nice, but we can deal with a corner bed -- especially if we have a comfortable second bed. We have a CA King size Tempur-Pedic here at home, and we usually have a 135 pound Rottweiler between us so we might as well be in separate beds!
Another example might be the galley. I really like the PC's galley design -- very sleek and upscale looking. Nice countertop material with a large sink and stove. I like the idea of having a relatively large smooth horizontal surface when the sink and/or stove isn't being used, and a place for the covers when they are. That said, all we really _need_ is a functional galley. Some simply are not. Take the WGO View Profile/Navion iQ. There's a lot to like about those rigs, but the galley sink is an absolute joke. It's about the size of a water bowl for a large dog. The cook top is the common two-burner one with the glass cover. IIRC, the sink has a glass cover as well but neither are flush with the counter and both are hinged, so they are potentially in the way when open (if you want to use the area of the counter behind them). Finally, the Profile/iQ has a single door fridge with a tiny "freezer". That's pretty much a deal killer right there, because we both agree that a regular, dedicated freezer compartment is practically a necessity, since we plan to eat in most of the time.
The shower is another area of compromise. Sure, I'd like to have what I call the "Taj Mahal of class C RV showers" -- the one in the LTV Unity U24MB, but I can settle for an ordinary shower as long as I can turn around and stand up in it. A shower _door_ (as opposed to a curtain) is a big plus. I really like the showers with a tub base (like a dual-purpose utility sink). I see PC puts one in the 2400 -- I wonder if we could get that in the 2350 -- another question for Stuart. I'm not that tall (6'2") but I cannot stand up in the showers in several rigs including the LTV Serenity and the newer (2011 and up) Profile/iQ. That's an example of something that (unfortunately) one often does not find out until after going to Hershey or some other RV show. A unit may look good otherwise, but because few (if any) RV mfrs give the dimensions of their showers, the customer is left to find out that it's too small after (perhaps) spending quite a bit of time studying various models. That can be aggravating. Fortunately, I found that most are tall enough.
WRT to length -- my 25 foot limit is of course somewhat arbitrary, but I know that it is possible for my wife and I to get what we need, and a lot of what we want, in a rig under that length. The PC 2350 and the LTV Unity U24IB are two examples. It may be hard to find multiple rigs that length that are designed the way we'd like, but it is physically possible to fit what we need/want in an RV that size. PC does it, so does LTV -- WGO could be a contender if they'd go back to the 2010 and earlier design and fix the galley. There are a couple others as well -- all built on the Sprinter chassis. Keep in mind, we started out at the very beginning looking at class B rigs, so a B+/C seems very spacious.
Length restrictions are another concern. Most people say they haven't run into very many length restrictions on local roads, in national parks and forests, and in campgrounds -- but they do exist, and 25 feet seems to be a common number that pops up. My wife and I used to go to the Southwest on vacation years ago -- we'd rent a vehicle (usually 4WD) and just drive around -- mainly AZ and NM. We found many roads that had posted length restrictions (for good reason). 4WD was rarely (if ever) necessary, only high clearance -- but length was an issue, and sometimes width. I don't plan to take our rig on the Rubicon Trail (we'll have the Enduro for that), but I don't want to be limited as to where we can go simply because of length. We may encounter some length-related problems anyway, because of having the Enduro on the hitch mounted carrier we'll probably be around 27+ feet total.
I know from my Internet travels that many RV owners have strong opinions about the chassis their rig is built on. The most common by far of course is the Ford E-350/450 -- the Mercedes (Freightliner/Dodge) Sprinter is also becoming more popular. Both have their advantages. If a person wants maximum GVWR and GCWR, Ford is the way to go, hands down. It's also easier to get a Ford-based RV serviced, although from what I've read, not as easy as say a Ford Focus. Apparently some dealers won't or can't work on an E-350/450 chassis if there's an RV sitting on it. I've never heard why this is, presumably they work on ambulances, etc. There seems to be broad agreement that the Sprinter-based rigs are easier to drive, have a more comfortable ride, more room in the cockpit, and have more safety and convenience features. They also cost a lot more, so they should. My understanding is that they can be serviced at any Freightliner dealership and most Mercedes dealers, but Ford clearly has the advantage there.
If there were two identical coaches that we liked (say PC 2350s), one on the E-350 and the other on a Sprinter, there is obviously some price differential that would tip the scales toward the E-350. In fact, I started a thread over on RV.net with this very idea in mind. After seeing at the prices of the new and used Sprinter-based rigs I decided that a) they were pricy, and b) focusing exclusively on the Sprinter-based rigs was not in our best interest -- we might not see a coach we'd really like. My hope was that I could find a RV on a Ford (or even GM) chassis -- preferably diesel -- that fit our needs/wants for a lot less than the Sprinter-based RVs. No such luck. The price difference seems relatively minor.
That brings us to mileage. There have been endless threads and posts dedicated to the subject. Yes, it is a serious concern, but it certainly doesn't trump everything else. I don't have personal experience with either chassis, but even if I did it would only be one person's experience. I might go around unloaded with no toad drafting slow-moving semis or I might be towing a Hummer at 80 mph! We've all seen what appear to be excessively high and low mileage claims. Sometimes they may be true and due to unusual circumstances, sometimes the person may have miscalculated, and perhaps once in a while there is some 'writer's embellishment'. In any case, over the 3 years or so (off and on) I've been researching RVs and reading posts in RV groups and forums, I've gotten a pretty good idea of the mileage the two chassis' typically get in normal use. Obviously there are variables (speed being the big one) but most people will give the speed they typically drive, and most run 55/60 to 65 mph. Almost all mileage figures are given without a toad, and if people do occasionally tow a vehicle they'll state their mileage when towing and usually give the type of vehicle. Most mileage figures are calculated over an entire multi-thousand mile trip, or even over the entire time they've owned their rig. Anyway, the bottom line is that the vast majority of people are getting 15 to 17 mpg with the V-6 Sprinter (the most common figure reported is 16 mpg) and 17 to 18.5+ with the I-5 Sprinter. The E-350/450 gets about 8-8.5 to 10 mpg. One interesting fact I like to point out is that Born Free (in Iowa) claims their rigs have won all of the national mileage competitions (I wasn't aware there were mileage competitions for RVs...). They use the E-350/450 exclusively and _brag_ that their RV (no model specified, presumably the smallest) gets 9.65 mpg at 55 mph. They make a big deal of this in their literature and claim that no other mfr's RV can touch it. I've never seen any other RV mfr make similar specific mileage claims, let alone refute Born Free's boast of being the mileage champ, so I assume that their claim is true. 9.65 mpg is, if anything, toward the higher end of the figures I've seen, but that is also at 55 mph. At 55, the Sprinters would be at the high end of the range I gave -- about 17 and 19 respectively. Close to double the mileage for the older I-5 Sprinter, and about 75% better for the newer V-6 chassis.
I agree that PC makes a great RV -- that's why I'm spending as much time as I am thinking about the optimum layout for the 2350. I'm hoping we can make the 2350 on the Sprinter chassis work. I think we can, but I doubt we are going to be able to bring my prized rock collection along. ;-)
Sherman
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I have a Ford E350 PC 2551, 2006 model with a whopping 15,000 miles on it and kept indoors at all times. Last year I took it from Arkansas to Lake Louise, Alberta, and back, about 5,500 miles. We pull a Chevy HHR that limits us to 65 MPH to preserve the transmission in the HHR. On that trip I averaged around 9.5 MPG towing @65 MPH, usually fighting a 20-30 MPH crosswind. The worst mileage I got was about 8.5 MPG crossing the Canadian Rockies and the Continental Divide going west out of Lake Louise. This is about as rigorous a road as you would be willing to drive an RV on. One stretch where we were crossing flat farm land across Nebraska netted about 12 MPG. What I did not keep track of was where I used gasoline with ethanol and where I didn't. Ethanol will reduce your MPG because it has less heat content per gallon than does the base gasoline. One other personal thing I'll mention - I have used a local mechanic in the Hot Springs area who had a contract to maintain FEDEX delivery trucks. When he started getting the Sprinters in he was NOT complimentary about their durability or ease of maintenance. Could just be redneck loyalty to American vehicles, but it's what he said. Also, the local Ford dealership here has no problems servicing my RV. All they've had to do was routine maintenance, but they indicated they could handle anything chassis related.
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BigbadJC:
I would have to say you are getting very good MPG with the E-350, I wish I was getting the same with the E-450!! This chassis discussion will go on for ever, I must agree that many dealerships including my local Dodge dealer are not overly impressed with the durability of the Sprinter chassis over time nor is Fed-X. While I am a huge fan of the 3.0L M-B engine for I have one in my Jeep Grand Cherokee, to say they are maintenance free is far from the truth, oil changes that I do myself cost over $140 (over $200 at the dealer) and the fuel filter change is $106 at the dealer. The 3.0L is and extremely complicated engine that throws codes very easily with the slightest variation from any of the many sensors. I am not "in bed" with Ford since I once brought suit against Ford Motor Co. (won by the way) over many fuel pump issues in a F-53 chassis under a Holiday Rambler, I vowed then to never own another Ford product. My expeience with the Sprinter chassis for one year and 10,000 miles drove me back to Ford, I never had any large issues with the Sprinter it was just that I always had the sense that the chassis was just being over worked from all aspects. I am very happy with the performance of the E-450 and in particular with the PC coach. While I fully realize that going 55 MPH in either a Ford or Sprinter chassis witll yield the best possible MPG I would seriously worry about ones safety on todays dual lane highways where the average MPH speed atleast here in New England is pushing 80 MPH. To each his own, and what makes our country so great is that we have choice in the marketpalce and everyone will make up their own minds. I would love to hear what Kermit, Stuart and Kyle at PC say about the Sprinter based chassis since they could best make a comparison between the two chassis. Thanks
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I see my thread has had its tail chopped off! ;-)
In an earlier post (on March 13) I wrote:
"What are some options that are worth looking for? I was thinking about the: passenger swivel seat; leather; fantastic vent; insulated glass; back-up monitor; leveling jacks (weight may be an issue though); mirror w/ compass and outside temp; diesel generator. Any suggestions/thoughts?"
There were some very thoughtful replies. I'm not asking people to repeat themselves, but if anyone has anything they'd like to add that would be very helpful.
Another way of asking the question might be -- are there any options that you wish you would have gotten? In particular, options that must be added at the factory (as opposed to those which can be added later)?
If we were to order new, I'm thinking we'd pass on the mirror w/ compass and outside temp -- it seems expensive, and there are alternatives.
In that previous post, I went to write:
"I know diesel gensets can be louder than LP fueled ones, and they can be smelly. The reason I'm considering one is to conserve LP. Even with a larger LP tank it is an issue, and the PC rigs have relatively small 42 lb LP tanks."
Diesel gensets have serious drawbacks, but I really like the idea of leaving the LP for refrigeration, heat, hot water, and cooking.
Some people say they'd never have a diesel genset, no matter what.
Any comments or opinions?
Thanks!
Sherman
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Some people say they'd never have a diesel genset, no matter what.
Any comments or opinions?
Thanks!
Sherman
I had a 7.5 ONAN in the front of a 34' HR Ambassador, water cooled 3 cylinder. No problems, not noisy at all, could not hear it in the rear of the coach. It's another engine to maintain and fairly expensive. Smell was no worse than the pusher diesel. Never had a trouble code on it, can't say the same for the Cummins that was "outback". Parts (filters) came from Cummins (do they own ONAN??) and they discount nothing for anyone near as I could tell.
Come to think about it the generator was "the" bright spot on that MH. I'll stick with PC and the gas generator on mine.
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Some people say they'd never have a diesel genset, no matter what.
Any comments or opinions?
Thanks!
Sherman
I had a 7.5 ONAN in the front of a 34' HR Ambassador, water cooled 3 cylinder. No problems, not noisy at all, could not hear it in the rear of the coach. It's another engine to maintain and fairly expensive. Smell was no worse than the pusher diesel. Never had a trouble code on it, can't say the same for the Cummins that was "outback". Parts (filters) came from Cummins (do they own ONAN??) and they discount nothing for anyone near as I could tell.
Come to think about it the generator was "the" bright spot on that MH. I'll stick with PC and the gas generator on mine.
Thanks lghjr, that's good to know.
Just to clarify, when you say gas you mean gasoline, correct?
I suppose I could have somehow included gas along with diesel (vs. LP). Different fuel but same idea -- running the generator off of whichever fuel the coach uses so that you (potentially) have a greater supply of fuel, and do not use up your LP running the generator since it is needed for cooking, hot water, heating, and the fridge.
I'd like to have the ability to be 'self-contained' for as long as possible and it seems that running the generator on diesel (w/ the Sprinter) or gasoline (w/ the Ford) would be a good idea. Credit to Ron for pointing that out to me over on RV.net a few months back. There are so many things like that -- facts that are blazingly obvious to an experienced RVer that just don't occur to rookies.
I wonder if your good experience with your diesel genset might have been at least in part because it was larger and water cooled. Perhaps it had better emissions controls and a bigger, quieter muffler? Just guessing. I know I've read multiple complaints from RV owners about the smaller diesel units that are typically installed in class C rigs. Many talk about purchasing an aftermarket exhaust extension kit that routes the exhaust up along the ladder and above the roofline. This was/is due to fumes getting into the coach.
Thanks,
Sherman
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Sherman:
Just remember the diesel generator is far more expensive and the weight is far greater compared to the LP model. The weight issue is why you see so many more LP gen set on Sprinters, all manafacturers are concnerned about that GVW! As I can tell you are seeing that there are trade offs with everything when it comes to RV's. Thanks
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I think that everyone comes up with different answers about generators. If you're diesel powered, you have the choice of a costly, noisy, diesel or an LP model that's sucking up your very limited supply of furnace, water heater, sometimes refrigerator, and cooktop fuel. What you really have to look at is what are you going to use the generator for. We tend to put very little hours on our generator, primarily using it to run the microwave and A/C when we stop to eat lunch at a roadside park or rest stop. We hate RV parks that are what I call parking lots with hookups, but we do look for state parks and other wooded facilities with a minimum of water and electricity and preferably sewer hookups. Consequently, if I had a diesel unit, I could probably use an LP generator with no problems at all. How much are you going to use your generator??
Jerry
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We tend to put very little hours on our generator, primarily using it to run the microwave and A/C when we stop to eat lunch at a roadside park or rest stop. We hate RV parks that are what I call parking lots with hookups.....
We feel the same about most RV parks, and they are quite costly as well. We like to search out more primitive & isolated camp ground facilities, mainly for the atmosphere with cost per night right behind that. If those places happen to have electric or better, then that is a " (cheer)". Even when primitive camping, we limit generator run times. I setup my secondary 40 amp battery charger to boost the main batteries, setup cell phones and camera battery chargers, everything that would benefit from a running generator, so when the genny is turned on lot's of things are happening all at once.
We don't like to run the generator because of the noise, worse inside the motor home than when outside. It feels like we are on the open road again instead of getting that peace and quiet time that we are seeking out in the first place.
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Sherman,
I thought I posted my response but don't see it here.
Yes it is "gasoline" in the PC. As ragoodsp posted that sucker in the HR was heavy, installed weight IIRC was ~ 1200lbs genset/radiator/water/etc. Diesel fuel price in our ownership was consistently 30-40% higher $'s, upside is that there is more energy in a gallon of diesel vs gasoline, BUT NOT 30-40% MORE ENERGY. Another upside to the HR the genset would run everything at once in the MH. Another downside to a 2 fuel vehicle is the increased support weight of both tanks, I think because of the seperation layer in diesel that those tanks are still metal. But with a diesel in a PC you would still have 2 systems and you are adding a third fuel system. As far as exhaust goes the diesel runs cooler so attendant parts can be smaller, and were, compared to the gasoline genset in the PC. LImited use, including storage will present a water/fuel separation layer in a diesel system and is something that is mandatory to take care, including frequent filter changes on the genset and addition of chemicals that "supposedly" treat the condition. That happened as part of the larger picture on the HR but would have to be addressed separately on a
PC. Twas me, I would investigate a much larger or even two equal sized propane tanks. In my mind at least the overall weight gain would be small[er (much??)] compared to adding a diesel genset and fuel tank.
L. G.
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I don't have a PC yet, but ..... ran across a Alberta couple who did and they do NOT have a gen. What they do have is 340 WATTS of SOLAR that meets their purpose when DRY camping, as we were doing. The solar does a good job of keeping the house batteries up, even with watching DVD's in the evening they said. He meantioned that IF the solar doesn't do it, they can just start the Sprinter engine and charge the batteries if necessary...
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I think that everyone comes up with different answers about generators. If you're diesel powered, you have the choice of a costly, noisy, diesel or an LP model that's sucking up your very limited supply of furnace, water heater, sometimes refrigerator, and cooktop fuel. What you really have to look at is what are you going to use the generator for. We tend to put very little hours on our generator, primarily using it to run the microwave and A/C when we stop to eat lunch at a roadside park or rest stop. We hate RV parks that are what I call parking lots with hookups, but we do look for state parks and other wooded facilities with a minimum of water and electricity and preferably sewer hookups. Consequently, if I had a diesel unit, I could probably use an LP generator with no problems at all. How much are you going to use your generator??
Jerry
Sigh...another dilemma. ;-)
Since we like the idea of dry camping/boondocking I imagine we'll use the generator frequently -- typically in the way Ron does, to keep the batteries charged -- and then run off of the batteries/inverter.
We have a similar setup here at the house -- 12 golf cart batteries and a pair of inverters for a whole-house UPS. If the batteries were to ever get fully discharged, we would run our generator at close to full load (the inverters have an adjustable charge rate) long enough to charge them back up and then turn it off. Fortunately we've never had to run the generator -- the batteries will run our essential loads for about 24 hours.
The loads in a RV are less of course, but there is much less battery capacity as well. Without having actual experience or doing load calculations I'm not sure how often we'd have to recharge the batteries, but I'm guessing that running the generator once or twice a day would be enough. Maybe less without using the furnace fan, or any other significant loads.
If that were the extent of it we could probably get by with the LP genset but I really like the idea of having the potential extended run time of a gas or diesel (dep. on chassis) generator, primarily to run the A/C.
I am concerned about the negatives that you all mentioned though -- additional weight, extra expense, and exhaust fumes.
I suppose noise is an issue with any generator (LP, gas, or diesel) but my understanding is that diesel units may be a bit louder than the others. Any opinions about that? I suppose if they're all obnoxiously loud it's a mute point.
To avoid the noise, I've read that some RV owners carry a small, portable, Honda gas generator. I've heard them run and they are _very_ quiet. They also have the advantage of being able to be set away from the RV. IIRC, they aren't particularly powerful though -- maybe 1-2KW depending on the model. That would be fine for charging the batteries and/or running small loads but I'm wondering about the A/C unit and the microwave. Actually, the microwave might use 700-800 watts and could be run off of the batteries/inverter for a short time if the outlet was wired that way (we do that here at home). So I'm sure even a small Honda generator could handle the microwave, but I don't have a sense of what sort of load the A/C unit represents. An A/C unit might not take too much when running but could be hard to start. Anyone know the minimum size generator required to start the A/C unit?
<Thinking out loud at this point> Of course, it wouldn't be practical to run the A/C unit from a portable generator, even if it could handle the load, because the fuel tank would need to be refilled every few hours. Then there's the issue of carrying enough fuel. One Jerry can might fit on the hitch mounted carrier, but that amount of fuel won't last very long if the generator is running the A/C.
And so we arrive back at square one... ;-)
What do you all think? Is it worth carrying a small Honda generator for routine battery charging and all loads except the A/C unit? Or does the OE on board generator charge the batteries fast enough that the noise generally isn't an issue?
It looks like PC installs a high quality Xantrex pure sine wave inverter in their rigs. I seem to recall seeing ratings of 1,800 to 2,000 watts, does that sound right? If so, that's much better than just about any other class B+/C I've looked at. As I said above, an inverter that size could easily run the microwave and two decent deep cycle batteries could supply enough juice for short periods of time -- but I gather the microwave outlet isn't wired that way?
One final thought -- I know most diesel engines can be idled for hours on end without harm and take about 1/4 of the fuel that a gas engine does while idling. Would it make sense to charge the house batteries that way? That wouldn't solve the A/C issue but would provide extended run time for everything else while conserving the LP and being relatively quiet and fume free.
Thanks!
Sherman
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Sherman,
I thought I posted my response but don't see it here.
Yes it is "gasoline" in the PC. As ragoodsp posted that sucker in the HR was heavy, installed weight IIRC was ~ 1200lbs genset/radiator/water/etc. Diesel fuel price in our ownership was consistently 30-40% higher $'s, upside is that there is more energy in a gallon of diesel vs gasoline, BUT NOT 30-40% MORE ENERGY. Another upside to the HR the genset would run everything at once in the MH. Another downside to a 2 fuel vehicle is the increased support weight of both tanks, I think because of the seperation layer in diesel that those tanks are still metal. But with a diesel in a PC you would still have 2 systems and you are adding a third fuel system. As far as exhaust goes the diesel runs cooler so attendant parts can be smaller, and were, compared to the gasoline genset in the PC. LImited use, including storage will present a water/fuel separation layer in a diesel system and is something that is mandatory to take care, including frequent filter changes on the genset and addition of chemicals that "supposedly" treat the condition. That happened as part of the larger picture on the HR but would have to be addressed separately on a
PC. Twas me, I would investigate a much larger or even two equal sized propane tanks. In my mind at least the overall weight gain would be small[er (much??)] compared to adding a diesel genset and fuel tank.
L. G.
I like the larger and/or dual LP tank idea. That might be the best solution.
WRT the diesel generator, I wouldn't be adding a diesel tank since I'm planning to buy a 2350 on a Sprinter.
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I don't have a PC yet, but ..... ran across a Alberta couple who did and they do NOT have a gen. What they do have is 340 WATTS of SOLAR that meets their purpose when DRY camping, as we were doing. The solar does a good job of keeping the house batteries up, even with watching DVD's in the evening they said. He meantioned that IF the solar doesn't do it, they can just start the Sprinter engine and charge the batteries if necessary...
That sounds good. I've been interested in alternative energy since I was a teenager, so I've been planning to use solar.
I'm glad to know it's ok to just use the Sprinter's engine to charge the house batteries.
I do like my A/C though, so we'd need some type of generator. Maybe the LP genset with an extra tank would be enough.
[The following is just rambling for the sake of conversation]:
I recall in the early 1970s my family had a Ford van that had an A/C unit on the floor in the rear. I'm not sure why we had it but that was a great vehicle to tour the Southwest in! I remember it blew out such cold air we could see our breath in front of it! I guess maybe it was supposed to be a refrigerated delivery van. Anyway, I brought that up because I was thinking it would be neat if RVs came with roof-mounted units like that -- no need for a generator (at least not for the A/C). On second thought, while that would work fine going down the road, it would require that the engine be left running to run the A/C. That might be ok for diesels but I'm not sure about gas engines. As I understand it, gas engines aren't supposed to be idled for long periods of time. I've read that diesels burn about 1/4 as much fuel while idling, but I wonder how the fuel required to run the Sprinter at a stepped up idle would compare with the fuel used to run a diesel generator?
As I said, the above is just 'what if?' I know the RV mfrs won't be using A/C units like that anytime soon.
Anyone have any idea how running the engine (gas or diesel) to charge the house batteries compares with running a generator -- gas, diesel, or LP as far as fuel usage? I'm just curious. I like the option of running the engine instead of the generator since it should be quieter. Maybe doing that and some solar panels would be enough to keep the batteries charged and an LP generator with a second LP tank would give us enough run time for the A/C unit while still having enough LP for hot water, heat, cooking, and the fridge. It would be great if that would work because as was pointed out above, LP gensets are lighter and cheaper. They also run much cleaner and are what is installed in most rigs anyway.
[End of ramble]
Sherman
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Sherman
The 3.0L can NOT be idled at all. Doing so other than for a couple minutes to cool the turbo down will do long term damage to the engine. The V -10 CAN IDLE ALL DAY. THANKS
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why can't the 3.0 be idled? Whats the difference between that and stuck in traffic. In other words, driving around the block for an 30 min is ok but not idling in the yard for 30 min. Please explain
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Sherman
The 3.0L can NOT be idled at all. Doing so other than for a couple minutes to cool the turbo down will do long term damage to the engine. The V -10 CAN IDLE ALL DAY. THANKS
All I have to go on is what I've read from the owners of each chassis -- almost all say the V-6 can be idled indefinitely but that excessive idling harms most gasoline engines, including the V-10 Ford.
In fact, M-B offers a stepped-up/fast idle as an option for Sprinters in "applications with longer idle times" -- see "High Idle Preset":
http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/build-and-equip/cab-chassis/14#byoPackages
That would seem to indicate that extended idling is ok, but I'll have to see if I can find a definitive answer(s) from Ford and/or M-B.
I like the idea of being able to idle the Sprinter for as long as necessary while using 1/4 of the fuel the V-10 does, so I hope what I've read previously is correct.
There is very little that's a deal killer at this point, but there are many things that put points in one column or another -- tip the scales back and forth as it were. This is one of them -- especially given the generator problems and limitations.
I'll do a little research and report back.
BTW -- if you could point me in the right direction (mfr info from Ford and/or M-B) that would save me some time. Offhand I'm not sure that idling is something either of them will cover in the usual consumer sections of their website.
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Go to Google and search for something like "does idling your car engine for long periods harm the engine"? You'll find, as usual, a fair amount of discussion, but I think you'll find the majority view is that it can hurt the engine, the catalytic converter, and the environment. My memory of the military is that the one exception are the big multifuel trucks which are better off if left idling rather than being shut down for short periods of time. The most reliable of these answers probably come from people like Click and Clack on NPR or other practicing mechanics. Check it out and see what you think.
Jerry
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Go to Google and search for something like "does idling your car engine for long periods harm the engine"? You'll find, as usual, a fair amount of discussion, but I think you'll find the majority view is that it can hurt the engine, the catalytic converter, and the environment. My memory of the military is that the one exception are the big multifuel trucks which are better off if left idling rather than being shut down for short periods of time. The most reliable of these answers probably come from people like Click and Clack on NPR or other practicing mechanics. Check it out and see what you think.
Jerry
Good suggestion -- I'm going to try and get a definitive answer from both Ford and M-B.
When it comes to questions like this, my impression is that many people (including myself) have opinions, but that our opinions may be based on hearsay, not fact.
I certainly don't know what the answer is. I know that the big diesels (semis, locomotives) are left idling for hours or even days. Some truckers don't ever shut their engines off during the winter months -- and they run for a million miles or more before needing to be overhauled. Needless to say though, a big Cummins or Detroit Diesel is different from the M-B V-6 diesel in the Sprinter.
As for gasoline engines, taxis, police cruisers, and ambulances often idle for extended periods and they still get good life out of them -- police cruisers are often sold to taxi companies when they have about 100K miles on them, and then the taxi company will put another 100K or so on the engine. There again, the engines in these vehicles are different from the V-10 in the E-350/450 at least in some ways.
Due to variations in design, it may be that while some gas and diesel engines can be idled for hundreds or even thousands of hours, others cannot. Many owners manuals consider extended idling "severe service" that requires more frequent oil changes.
The environment is always a concern. Of course I would never leave any engine idling for no reason. I am considering whether it might make sense to do so when the batteries need to be recharged -- as an alternative to running the generator. My guess would be that although it is much larger, the V-6 diesel runs cleaner than the diesel genset, and probably the gasoline generator as well. On the other hand the LP genset might be cleaner than the V-6 diesel. So, depending on which generator would otherwise be used, idling the V-6 might actually be better for the environment.
I'm going to try and find some answers, but I strongly suspect that it is ok to idle the Sprinter for extended periods since M-B offers that optional "high idle preset". The description says:
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High Idle - Preset
Details & Technology
This electronic RPM governor maintains a constant RPM, e.g. for auxiliary drive operation.
Under load change, RPM may fluctuate by approx. +/- 50 RPM (depending on engine, loadand RPM).
The standard factory setting is 950 RPM. Higher or lower RPM can be programmed usingthe Star Diagnosis system.
Benefits
Constant rpm
Necessary if a virtually constant rpm must be maintained in order to operate an auxiliary unitsuch as a pump.
BenefitRemarks
Not suitable for operating 220V generators!Recommended for:- Ambulances- Shuttle services- Applications with longer idle times
~~~~~
Sounds pretty slick. I wonder if it can be installed by a Sprinter service facility?
Sherman
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The 3.0L and all other commonn rail diesels are not suppose to ilde but I do not know exaclty why that is. Driving around the block or being able to "up idle" by using the cruise control setting as was the case on other diesels that I have owned is just not a feature on the 3.0L. Perhaps Sprinter owners can share what the verbage says in their new Sprinter books. In my 3.0L jeep book it is bold to not idle period.
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I a post above I mentioned factory installed auxiliary A/C units. It turns out M-B offers one for the passenger van version of the Sprinter:
http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/build-and-equip/passenger-van/12#byoPackages
Obviously, it only works while the engine is running. I can see why RV mfrs use electric A/C units -- they can serve double duty -- running off of shore power when parked and off of the generator while driving.
It would be neat if the RV mfrs were to offer an optional aux A/C unit that has it's own engine-driven compressor like the one above, in addition to the standard unit (which would still be required). The aux unit would have the advantage of not needing 120 Vac to operate -- so the generator would not have to be run while driving (or in situations where running the generator is not allowed or frowned on) -- saving LP and keeping things quieter. The regular electric A/C unit could be used when shore power is available.
I know -- pie-in-the-sky, but an interesting idea (to me anyway).
Sherman
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The 3.0L and all other commonn rail diesels are not suppose to ilde but I do not know exaclty why that is. Driving around the block or being able to "up idle" by using the cruise control setting as was the case on other diesels that I have owned is just not a feature on the 3.0L. Perhaps Sprinter owners can share what the verbage says in their new Sprinter books. In my 3.0L jeep book it is bold to not idle period.
Very interesting.
I'm not familiar with your particular model Jeep. I see Chrysler is planning to make a diesel Grand Cherokee for 2013. Is the 3.0L in your Jeep the same gasoline engine that M-B used in the 2008 USDM Sprinter?
The only info I have so far is the fact that M-B offers the "high idle preset" as an option. It is specifically designed for long-term idling. It would seem to me that if extended idling was harmful, M-B would not have that as an option. After all, they have to warranty the Sprinter engine for 5 years/100,000 miles, and the emission controls even longer.
I do recall hearing that the I-5 in the previous model diesel _did_ have problems that were due to extended idling (EGR valve trouble maybe?).
After reading your post, it occurred to me that I could download the Sprinter owners manual from M-B and search it. I looked for the word "idle" and found a grand total of two (2) in the entire 292(!) page manual. One was the recommendation to let it idle for two minutes before shutting it down, to allow the coolant to get back to normal temp. The other was something about the "Overrun cut-off".
The search continues...
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Go to Google and search for something like "does idling your car engine for long periods harm the engine"? You'll find, as usual, a fair amount of discussion, but I think you'll find the majority view is that it can hurt the engine, the catalytic converter, and the environment. My memory of the military is that the one exception are the big multifuel trucks which are better off if left idling rather than being shut down for short periods of time. The most reliable of these answers probably come from people like Click and Clack on NPR or other practicing mechanics. Check it out and see what you think.
Jerry
I took your suggestion and found this:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-235869.html
"I can't believe I actually found this Car Talk column (http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/NEW_COLUMNS/Archive/1996/January/09.html) that I recall reading in the newspaper eight years ago. Anyway, the Car Talk guys (who seem to know what they're talking about) answered a guy who wrote:
"While I was away on business, my wife locked her keys inside her car. She decided to wait until I got home to unlock it, but unfortunately, she didn't realize the car was running. Approximately 36 hours later, when I got home and went to retrieve the car, the engine was still running. ...Did she damage the engine?"
Tom: Not to worry, Frank. I can tell you're annoyed at your wife, but you don't have to be. The engine can take it. There are lots of cars that idle for hours and hours at a time. Just look at the police cars in front of your local donut shop.
Ray: As long as the cooling system is working properly, the engine should be able to idle indefinitely. So no damage at all was done to the car..."
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Sherman:
For the record, Jeep for two years( 07,08 and a little 0f 09) put the 3.0L M-B in the Grand Cherokee (exact same engine that is in the Sprinter). Jeep all so sold the 3.0 M-B in Europe for close to 10 years. The new 3.0 that will be coming in 2013 is a Fiat/V.M. Monturi designed and manafactured and is supose to get nearly 30% better MPG's compared to the 3.0 M-B. i found your article on the Sprinter's center of gravity interesting, i would like to see scientific tests on a 11' RV vs's a cargo van based Sprinter. I was not aware of the optional "idle up" feature but that would be a goood feature. Once again I know for a fact you are not to idle a 3.0L M-B diesel. Are you aware all so that after 100,000 miles the particulate matter filter must be replaced at uwards of $3000...do alittle research on that subject at your M-B dealer. Thanks
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Sherman:
I am speaking specifically about diesel engines not gas and not about the old 5 cylinder M-B diesels that do not have PMF (particulate matter filter) on them. Again, the 3.0L Mercedes should not sit and idle for it will over heat the PMF (particulate matter filter) as well as the intake gets very plugged with re-circulated crud. I do not have my Sprinter manual any more but I know there was a warning in the 2009 manual to not idle the engine. Go to http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?+c11031 (hope I got that all right) and see what is being said...thanks
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This is what I found on another forum concerning the "high idle switch: and I quote
Another option for the Sprinter is the OEM, "high idle" switch. Something that is included in all semi trucks, where you can idle it up.
The Sprinter option takes it to a prset 850rpms. It is most common on ambulance conversions, and those using the truck for other commerical purposes.
I believe the pricing on it is about $850.00 amd needs a dealer install, because it alte[/color]rs the ECM program. [/font]"
So that should settle some of the questions?
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Here's something else (FWIW):
This company: http://www.goexpediter.com/sprinter-expediter-van-price.htm sells a rear aux A/C unit for the Sprinter van and says:
"Hanvey "Monster Cool" rear cargo area interior air conditioner. 42,000 BTU motive powered air conditioner for temperature sensitive carriers. (Sprinter will idle approximately 3-4 hours on a single gallon of fuel to power the "Monster Cool" while generators with roof top air with only 13,500 BTU will only give you hour hour or less on a gallon to power much smaller BTU rooftop A/C units)."
Wow! If true, that's a huge difference in fuel consumption -- 42,000 BTU for 3-4 hours vs. 13,500 BTU for one hour or less, for one gallon of diesel. I mentioned these aux A/C units in another post but I didn't realize the difference in efficiency was so dramatic.
Of course,this doesn't answer the question of whether it's advisable to idle the Sprinter for extended periods -- Hanvey doesn't have to warranty the engine or pay for repairs -- but I wonder how many of these A/C units they'd sell if M-B recommended not idling for more than 2-3 minutes. They'd be all but useless.
I'm wondering if the warnings about idling from various sources are referring to the stock idle speed, as opposed to the 'high speed idle' factory option.
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A bit more interesting info, from Sportsmobile:
http://sportsmobile.com/2_sr_heatingcooling.html
See, "Running Your Air Conditioner -- When Parked or Driving".
Just a bit of the text:
"You can run your roof 110V A/C for about 3 hours when parked with your engine at normal idle – 600 RPM with an inverter. After about 3 hours you would need to turn the roof A/C off so that the auxiliary batteries can recharge. See above for recharging. The Sprinter van's starting battery is isolated with Sportsmobile's battery separator. Note: in some states it is illegal to leave your engine running in an unoccupied vehicle.
To increase your run time at idle we recommend you order Sprinter's hi-idle option when you order your Sprinter...".
Once again, Sportsmobile doesn't have to warranty the engine or pay for repairs out of warranty (unlike their customers). Still, I'd think M-B (or their attorneys) would have a thing or two to say to them if they were advising owners to do something that would harm the engine or emissions controls, since it's M-B that has to eat any repair costs during the (rather long) warranty period.
I'm still looking for solid objective info, but figured I'd post some of the more interesting things I come across.
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Well this doesn't sound good...
"Also, a recent conversation with the head of Sprinter engineering at Mercedes Benz, we were informed that they don’t recommend idling the engine unless it’s equipped with a high RPM idle control. This control runs the engine faster to keep it hot. He added that “even with a high idle system, the engine should never idle more than 30 minutes”."
As Homer Simpson says, "D'oh!"
I found that here:
http://www.wagntails.com/html/prodinfo/sprinterfaq.htm
They convert the Sprinter into a mobile dog grooming van.
Not _directly_ from M-B but getting close. It does seem to confirm my theory that extended idling is ok with the 'high idle' system but not with the stock, lower, idle speed. Even then, 30 minutes isn't very long. Hopefully it's enough to charge the coach batteries.
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Sherman:
I must say your line of thinking is different and here is why I have concluded that:
1. Forum posters recommmend that you contact Stuart Bailey at PC, like Stuart, not like Stuart, it makes no difference but I can tell you he knows his RV's thru and thru and I would listen to what he says. Stuart stated he could not personnally justify the $12,000 up charge for a Sprinter and he recommends the Ford. You concluded you want the Sprinter.
2. Forum poster brings up the center of gravity issue on a narrow wheel'ed Sprinter. Poster who is and enginner gives us all a super physicis 101 lesson on center of gravity theory and concludes that a Sprinter would be far more tippy compared to the E-450. You conclude you want a Sprinter.
3. Forum posters brings up the issue around not being able to idle a 3.0L diesel M-B engine becuase it will do harm and warranty will not cover any resulting dmage. You speak with M-B engineer who says to not idle the 3.0L for more than 30 mins no matter what. You conclude the 3.0L can be idled for and extended period of time.
4. Service and warranty work on a M-B Sprinter based RV can be and issue that I have experienced. You call M-B and they give you the company line... the only 3 M-B dealers here in NH will not service Sprinters and any other dealer accross the country that was built to servcie cars will not service Sprinter RV's that are different comaperd to commercial vans. You conclude that service will not be and issue.
Many posters on this forum have had more than several motor home (me for one) and I can tell you we have all seen and experienced every darn pitfall of RV'ing you can. Everyone wants to see you in and RV now and as satisfied with your ulitmate purcahse as you can be and if a Sprinter based RV fits your needs then that is great please just go buy it. I have never seen a better quality forum then the PC site, I have yet to see a post that does not include correct information and that is not found on other sites. My Sprinter based chassis just did not work for my needs and it very much might work for you, but please just have open eyes and apapreciate the fact that posters are just attempting to explain certain issues around the Sprinter. I just do not want you to end up like I did by wanting the Sprinter do be more than it is able to deliver and that sinking feeling that it just does not meet the bill. Best of luck, thanks
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This is what I found on another forum concerning the "high idle switch: and I quote
Another option for the Sprinter is the OEM, "high idle" switch. Something that is included in all semi trucks, where you can idle it up.
The Sprinter option takes it to a prset 850rpms. It is most common on ambulance conversions, and those using the truck for other commerical purposes.
I believe the pricing on it is about $850.00 amd needs a dealer install, because it alte[/color]rs the ECM program. [/font]"
So that should settle some of the questions?
One would think so, but apparently not.
I'm very surprised that M-B sells this high idle kit as an option but does not indicate how long the engine can safely be idled.
The closest I've found to a solid answer is what I posted above. The grooming van company that supposedly spoke with a M-B engineer who said 1/2 hour max. If true, that's not very encouraging.
I'm going to try and get a straight answer directly from M-B, or at least an authorized Sprinter service center.
Sherman
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Sherman:
Please re-read your link to the Sportsmobile web site....is clearly states that the "idle up" option must be ordered from the factory on your spected Sprinter. Dealers can not install this option at the dealership level. I am not sure you will have much luck ordering a Sprinter chassis and having it delivered to your favorite upfitter for the coach to be attached....ain't going to happen fella. Thanks
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The plot thickens -- I just called Freightliner of Hagerstown (MD) and spoke with their service dept.
They said that with the high idle option the Sprinter can be idled indefinitely ("until the fuel runs out").
They said much of the confusion about whether or not idling is ok is because it is not advisable to idle for long periods of time at the stock idle speed.
They also said they can install it.
I also have calls in to:
1) M-B Sprinter USA (877) 762-8267
2) Sun Motor Cars (Mechanicsburg, PA) (717) 691-3333
3) M-B of Catonsville (MD) (410) 788-7744
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Sherman,
Propane is cheaper, EVEN, if you have to fill everyday (you won't), than trying to get something for nothing out of the M-B. M-B overhaul for owner induced problems probably would not run more than $8-12K. That little computer will tell the diagnostic technician everything he needs to know about "what happened", and it will stand up in court for warranty claims. Besides that, trust me a lawsuit for that piddlin amount will cost more than the out of pocket expense for an overhaul.
Go with the proven, there is a reason for the "why" they built it that way.
There is an old, very old joke about how much it costs to run a motorhome, goes something like: if you have to ask you can't afford it.
Another side of the same coin is that through several RV's I have never found one yet that had everything I wanted or could do what I wanted in every hypothetical situation.
Sans that, I am not sure what you are looking for.
The four sources you cite for more info are basically used car salesmen and I am betting that in short conversation they will tell you what ever YOU want to hear.
Good Luck on that search for Nirvana.
L. G.
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1) Neal S. @ M-B USA (800) 222-0100 got the answers to the idle time questions straight from Germany and left me a voice mail:
With high idle option idle time is 1.5 to 2 hours. The rpm is programmable (if necessary) by dealer using "Century Diagnostics" (M-B proprietary equip., $22,000, for anyone considering DIY).
With stock idle, maximum idle time is one hour.
I just called and confirmed the above with Neal, to make sure I understood him correctly.
2) Mel Condon, shop foreman @ Sun Motors, Inc. said:
He would need the VIN to give an accurate quote but that they can do the high idle option.
There are two option codes from M-B -- one indicates that the Sprinter is pre-wired for the module, the other indicates that it has the module installed.
Mel said that if the cooling system is working properly, the Sprinter can idle indefinitely. Sun Motors has many customers with Sprinters who are contractors and let them idle for hours at a time and they've never seen any problems.
I told him what Neal had said about the idle time and Mel said that he would be going to M-B USA headquarters soon for training and would try to get the question of idle time settled.
3) Sheldon, service advisor @ Freightliner of Hagerstown gave me some (steep) prices for the high idle installation at their shop:
The Sprinter does not need to have cruise to have the high idle installed, but there are two sets of prices:
W/ cruise:
A) With M-B code EB5 -- $417.43
B) With M-B code EB8 -- $1,450.44(!)
Without cruise:
A) With M-B code EB5 -- $588.60
B) With M-B code EB8 -- $1,621.61(!!)
Sheldon said again that with the high idle the Sprinter can idle indefinitely.
The safe bet at this point would be to assume that Neal has the right info. If that's the case, then I'm inclined not to bother with the high idle because that's a lot of money to spend for just 0.5-1 hour additional idling time.
I'm curious as to what Mel will find out -- I'm guessing he'll get the same answer Neal did.
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Sherman:
You sure appear to have a handle on all the answers now. i would just bite the bullet and place a deposit on a PC first thing in the morning! I might suggest that you not take the Sprinter to Mel's shop for service for there is just something bothersome about a service manager who things he knows more than the engineers, especially German enginners. Oh yes, did anyone tell you about the urea tank on the new Sprinters that need service at every oil change? best of luck.
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If I had all of the answers I'd be a very rich man indeed!
As it is, I seem to have all the information I need about idling the V-6 in the Sprinter chassis. M-B in Germany says up to one hour at the stock idle speed is ok, and that should be enough for my needs. If not, I know it definitely is possible to get an authorized Sprinter dealer to install the M-B high idle option.
I do find it interesting when there is conflicting information about any subject though. There may be one or more reasons for that:
1) There are plenty of people who think they know better than engineers and damage or destroy equipment as a result.
2) There are times when 'real-world' experience is truly different from what the engineers had counted on.
3) Information doesn't always get disseminated well within an organization.
4) Sometimes well-intentioned employees will give out false or inaccurate information without realizing it.
5) Mfrs want to please the customer and sell their products, but they also have liability and warranty concerns that may influence their answers to questions.
6) If information is not in writing, and must be passed on verbally, it can quickly get corrupted.
As I said, I have enough info for my needs. Unless I have a strong reason to believe otherwise, I am going to go by what Neal S. @ M-B USA said -- one hour max. at normal/stock idle speed. Who knows, if enough people question this, M-B engineering may come out with a revised, written statement -- something that will be added to the Sprinter owners manual. I'm very surprised that there is currently nothing in writing about idle time, both with and w/o the high idle option.
In Mel's defense, he did not come across like a know-it-all. At no point in our conversation did he say or even hint that he knew more than the M-B engineers -- he simply relayed his real-world experience as a shop foreman in a large Sprinter repair facility. What he _did_ say was that he was curious as to why M-B would limit the idle times, since in his experience it isn't an issue. He intends to check into it further at M-B USA headquarters when he is there in the near future because he realizes there may be concerns he is not aware of.
Mel and I actually spoke about the DEF/urea (which I was aware of). It came up in our conversation because we were talking about how the various Sprinter engines (I-5, V-6, V-6 w/DEF) might react differently to idling and how that might explain some of the conflicting stories and info. The DEF is a big improvement in that it allows the Sprinter V-6 to put out significantly more torque and hp while producing fewer emissions. M-B sized the DEF tank so that it only needs to be filled every 10,000 miles, with every oil change. From what I've read, filling the DEF tank costs about $8.
Does Ford publish any information about idling the V-10?
Does Ford offer a high idle option?
Any idea how long the V-10 can be idled, both at stock idle rpm and high idle (if available)?
It may be able to be idled longer since gasoline engines tend to maintain their operating temp better.
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I truly think the idle issue has run out of fuel at this time!! My last point to make is that the 3.0L has a very complicated intake system that all evolves around a very small swirl valve that entails a little electric motor and valve system to keep everything moving in the intake area. Over time it gets gummed to the point the valve does not work any longer and it sets off all the check engine, throttle body lights. excess idling and oil that blows by (diesels all blow oil by) are the two causes of the failure. My nephews 08 3.0L with 42,000 miles just had to have the valve replaced to the tune of $2962.00, his extended drive trian warranty did not cover the cost. The dealer stated that many Sprinter based 3.0L have this issue, one had two before 100,000 miles. The 3.0L is one tough engine that likes to be driven and driven hard on the highway everyday that is when you will see the 250,000 miles with little trouble. Again, the engine does not like to be idled and it can get very costly to do so. Thanks.
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But wait -- there's more!!
Something that hasn't been mentioned is the Espar heater. It has the ability to keep the engine at proper operating temperature, which goes a long way toward eliminating many of the problems associated with idling the 3.0L diesel engine, and can be used as an aux coach heat source.
So unless a higher than stock idle speed is needed for greater output from the alternator, there is no reason to bump the idle speed up when using an Espar.
Looks like the Sprinter engine may be a very good source of back up power after all.
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To get back to the original topic of this thread -- we're still looking for a 2350 but instead of the larger dinette and no slide (like Ron's) we've decided that the more common sofa/bed in a slide will work best for us.
I'm looking for ideas as to where to look for late model used PC 2350s.
Of course I looked at PC's website first and continue to check it. I've also tried:
www.rvt.com
www.oodle.com
www.pplmotorhomes.com
www.usedrvsforsale.com
One feature I find useful is being able to sign up for notifications if what you're looking for is listed. If you're aware of any site with that feature it's a big plus.
Any suggestions appreciated.
Thanks!
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Ebay has them pop up on occasion, and ebay has an auto-notifier too.
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Ebay has them pop up on occasion, and ebay has an auto-notifier too.
Thanks Ron, great suggestion!
I'm not in the habit of using eBay (although I have in the past) so I hadn't thought to try there.
I've already set up a search with email notification.
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The Ebay bidding or Buy-It-Now process is not always the means. Often the auction ends and there is no buyer, whether nobody bid, or a reserve was not met. Afterwards, you can contact the seller and discuss it between just the two of you as you would on RVtrader, craigslist, etc.
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The Ebay bidding or Buy-It-Now process is not always the means. Often the auction ends and there is no buyer, whether nobody bid, or a reserve was not met. Afterwards, you can contact the seller and discuss it between just the two of you as you would on RVtrader, craigslist, etc.
I remember you mentioning that before, earlier in this thread when you found that low-priced RV on eBay.
Of course, if I find a 2350 that's what we're looking for I'd want to bid, or maybe even take the 'buy it now' price if it is reasonable. I gather you're saying that if I bid but do not win the auction I should check with the seller to see if the 'winner' backed out, or the reserve wasn't met, and try to make a private deal -- is that right?