Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ron Dittmer on March 26, 2012, 04:27:52 pm
-
For the recond on this forum, our 2007 E350-V10 PC-2350 has gotten this fuel economy, averaged from the gas station near home, back to that same gas station, keeping accurate record of gallons purchased along the way.
Trip "A" (during break-in period...if there is a break-in period)
- towing 2200 pound car 100% of the time. This means that all locally driven miles are done with the car. The PC stayed parked at camp sites.
- 5039 mile journey from Chicago, to San Francisco, to Las Vegas, and a lot of places in between. Highway, mountain and canyon driving combined.
- top speed is consistently 5 mph over posted speed limits when towing, but never exceeding 70mph.
Averaged over the 5039 miles driven = 9.5 mpg
Trip "B"
- towing 4300 pound 4x4 100% of the time. This means that all locally driven miles are done with the 4x4. The PC stayed parked at camp sites.
- 3826 mile journey from Chicago, to Jasper Alberta and a lot of places in between. Highway & mountain driving combined.
- top speed is consistently 5 mph over posted speed limits when towing, but never exceeding 70mph.
Averaged over the 3826 miles driven = 9.2 mpg
Trip "C"
- Not towing anything so all driving was done with the motor home.
- shorter trip of about 800 miles, 700 highway, 100 local.
- loaded up with 5 adults for a wedding.
- typical cruising speed was 65mph on the open road interstate driving.
Averaged over the 800 miles driven = 10.2 mpg
These figures are as accurate as I could get with no fluff of any kind. I favored worse economy when averaging 10ths of gallons, so if anything my true fuel economy would be better, not worse.
I think I will start a new thread on MPG, sseking everyones "Accurate" figures.
-
UPDATE:
I spoke with Stuart earlier re: the 2350 on the Sprinter chassis.
The following is from my notes. I believe it is accurate. Hopefully Stuart will let us know if I misunderstood anything he said.
1) CCC w/o slide is ~2,000 pounds
2) CCC with slide is ~1,700 pounds
3) Slide adds ~300 pounds
4) Stuart prefers the slide -- more room, better resale value.
5) Only one slide failure in 10 years.
6) The Sprinter upcharge is still $12,000.
7) The MB Sprinter must be serviced at MB dealers.
8) The Freightliner Sprinter must go to Freightliner.
9) 2009 was the last year for the diesel E-350/450 and it did not have an intercooler so it was less powerful.
10) Ford diesel was a $10,000 upcharge.
11) Stuart bought 50 2008 Sprinter chassis from Monaco for 1/2 price.
12) 2010 was first model year for PC 2350/2400 on the Sprinter.
13) Since the original 50 Sprinters were sold, 10 have been traded in, mostly for 'lack of power'.
14) It is possible to get the tub base shower in the 2350.
15) Sofa/bed w/air mattress has been discontinued. Split electric sofa/bed is used in Ford-based rigs, older style electric sofa in the Sprinter-based units. Both sofas have cushions with memory foam.
16) Stuart clearly prefers the Ford chassis over the Sprinter.
WRT mileage, he said that the Born Free rigs are heavier and less aerodynamic which explains their lower mileage (the 9.65 mpg @ 55 mph that Born Free publishes in their brochures).
Stuart said the PC E-350-based rigs get 10-12 mpg, the E-450 rigs 8-10 mpg, and the Sprinter-based 2350/2400 16 to 18 mpg. He pointed out that it would take 300K to 400K miles of driving to get back the additional $12,000 upcharge with lower fuel costs. That sounded a bit high so I did some quick math using his numbers (low end for both):
100,000 miles at 10 mpg = 10,000 gallons x $4/gallon = $40,000 for gasoline.
100,000 miles at 16 mpg = 6,250 gallons x $4.40/gallon = $27,500 for diesel.
Better than 300-400,000 miles, but still a long payback time -- several years for most people. Of course, if/when fuel prices go up, the payback time will be less.
Also, as I mentioned above, there are many differences between the two chassis aside from their mileage ratings.
The fact that MB Sprinters must go to MB dealers and Freightliner to Freightliner bothers me. I'm guessing there are more MB dealers but it would be nice to be able to use both. Perhaps Stuart meant while they are under warranty, because I know I've read that Sprinter-based RV owners have gone to either, regardless of which badge is on the grill.
In any case, it looks like the 2350 on the Sprinter will work for us, I just need to decide whether we should wait and try to find one used or buy new. I'm thinking I'll hold off a while longer and see what's available used.
Sherman
-
Sherman:
I am glad that you got alot of valuable info from Stuart today, he knows his RV business inside and out and you should believe and listen to what he says. You can NOT get your M-B Spinter serviced at a Freighliner dealer and vice versa I know I tried at both dealers with my Dodge Sprinter and they both said no. I can not get my Jeep with the 3.0L M-B with Mercedes logos all over it servcied or repaired at a M-B dealer either in or out of warranty peroid. It appears that you have your mind set on the Sprinter so give Stuart a call and place your order. I very much look forward to hearing how you like your new rig post delivery.......thanks
-
Sherman:
I am glad that you got alot of valuable info from Stuart today, he knows his RV business inside and out and you should believe and listen to what he says. You can NOT get your M-B Spinter serviced at a Freighliner dealer and vice versa I know I tried at both dealers with my Dodge Sprinter and they both said no. I can not get my Jeep with the 3.0L M-B with Mercedes logos all over it servcied or repaired at a M-B dealer either in or out of warranty peroid. It appears that you have your mind set on the Sprinter so give Stuart a call and place your order. I very much look forward to hearing how you like your new rig post delivery.......thanks
You'll know my mind is made up when I sign the papers. ;-)
Yes, for my wife and I, I think the Sprinter chassis makes more sense. Needless to say, that's different from making a blanket judgement that one chassis is 'better' than another. Both Ford and Mercedes make good vehicles for a wide variety of uses.
I would still consider an RV on the E-350 chassis if it was comparable to the coach on the Sprinter chassis and if the price difference were great enough.
I'm going to see what I can find used. If nothing turns up in a reasonable amount of time, _then_ I'll give Stuart a call and place my order.
Question -- was your Dodge Sprinter under warranty when the MB and Freightliner dealers turned you away?
I'm reading conflicting info and experiences regarding getting the Sprinter chassis serviced. Maybe tomorrow I'll call MB, Dodge, and Freightliner and see what they say.
I have heard of some corporate policies that restrict where service can be done, but they had to do with Dodge dealers not being allowed to work on Sprinters that were made after Daimler/Chrysler split. I wonder if some of the owner experiences can be explained by independent dealers having different policies?
For example, here's a Chrysler dealer I just found with a quick Google search that services Sprinters from all three brands:
http://www.greenwaydodge.com/sprinter-service.htm
I did also see a statement that, "Some dealers prefer not to service motorhomes...". That may apply to all chassis:
http://www.roadtrek.com/service_locator.aspx
From what I can see, service is available, and it may not matter which badge is on the front grill, but it can be hit and miss. It does seem fair to say that finding service for a Ford would be easier.
FYI: Here are links to Sprinter service facilities in the USA:
http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/find-dealer/
http://www.freightlinersprinterusa.com/find-dealer/
Sherman
-
Sherman
We were in the same situation as you were 10 years ago. We were just retired and had never been camping. We were not sure what type of unit would meet our needs. We researched for a few years prior but still had alot of questions. One suggestion we have for you is that you could rent an RV for a weekend and get a first hand experience as to your dislikes and likes about the interior layout. If you do rent, make sure you get one with a corner bed, or a couch verus a dinette, one with a slide versus one without a slide etc.... To save the cost of fuel when you are renting, camp at a location close to the rental agency. You may not have you pick of manufacturers but you at will get a good idea as to what you like and dislike about the living arrangements.
Somethimes there are very good bargains out there for renting.
Sue
-
Sherman:
I realize you have a lot to think about and it is obvious that you do process everything a lot. Everyone on this forum are great people and we all very much appreciate the quality of a PC coach, the problem is not every RV manafacturer does such a good job constructing their particular coach on a chassis. Dealers get burned all the time in that the company (Ford, GM, M-B, etc..) sets hours to complete a particuar job for warranty work as we all know. Working on and RV can take double the time since "add on's" may have to be moved, manafacturers have tapped into OEM equipment incorrectly, etc and dealers eat a ton of labor cost. For that reason many dealers refuse to work on motor homes period and they have the right to refuse even warranty work. Not every Dodge dealer (very few actaully) is certified to work on Sprinters just like not every M-B dealer will work on Sprinters either. I have found that the PC on the E series chassis is more likely to be worked on because of the height of PC's allows them into garages more easily and the E series is very common, when you get over 11 feet you will eliminate many dealership because of their overhead doors are just not high enough.
It is no secret that the Chrysler/M-B seperation was not a nice one and their are not warm feelings between the two company's now. While parts for the 3.0L can still be gotten by a Dodge/Jeep delaer I can tell you the parts some time come very slowly and the price for those parts is thru the roof, I pay $34.00 for and oil filter at my Jeep dealer for my 3.0L M-B that has and M-B logo on it and I get the same filter at the M-B dealership for nearly half the price. My dealer claims parts are getting slower and slower and if you are looking at a couple year old Sprinter it is most likley going to have the Dodge Ram hood logo on it and you will have to get it servcied at a Dodge certified dealer and some of those dealers may infact be giving up their certified satatus since there are no more Dodge/Ram Sprinters and the fleet out there will get old fast. While as I stated, we all love RV's on this forum I can tell you that many M-B dealers including my very large local dealer does not want RV's sitting in their lot waiting for service, totally different customers! Over my 30 years of RV'ing I can tell you I have had sat in more Cummin's Truck Repair Center then I would like to admit. One, they hate RV's for the reasons I have stated above, two, you are on vacation in a very expensive RV and you are competing with the guy who has to make it to LA in three days with a load of Maine potatoes, you tell me who is going to get the attention of the servcie manager first? Third, truck repair techs are very different comapred to car techs, do not expect your Sprinter to be vacumed and washed afer and oil change but YOU will have to get it washed and vacumed aftre they are thru!
If for what ever reason you do not want to go the Ford route now I would personnaly wait seveal years and you are going to see new chassis's come on the market for RV applications from both Ford and Ram that will offer better MPG, more flexible floorplans, etc.
In closing, while PC makes a super coach I am not sure PC or the majority of the other manafacturers out there will ever see a coach staying together in consideration of the condition of our roads today to make it over 100,000 miles therefore your pay off math justifing the up charge for the Sprinter is really not valid.
If you listen to know one on this forum you should listen to Stuart who knows his business and has stated his opinions very clearly. Thanks
-
“Also, the 2010 air mattress sofa/bed has a large drawer under it that we find very useful.” We too have the large drawer under our sofa in our 2011 Model 3100. We only have occasional guests but they think the air mattress is good. Sure wouldn't want to do without the drawer (pic). It’s great for storing the computer, printer, and longer items without having to accessing the storage under the driver’s side twin bed. It holds a lot of stuff.
-
If for what ever reason you do not want to go the Ford route now I would personnaly wait seveal years and you are going to see new chassis's come on the market for RV applications from both Ford and Ram that will offer better MPG, more flexible floorplans, etc.
I am curious to see if Ford's new T-series cut-away similar to the E350 in Load capability, will be adopted by PC-USA. That chassis is claimed to yield more power & torque and better fuel economy than the Sprinter. I would hope at a lower purchase price too.
I heard the front wheel drive van will come out next year for 2013, but the American version of the front or rear wheel drive 6-wheel cut-away I think is this.....who knows? If this is the chassis, interesting the frame rail is "L" shaped, not "C" shaped like the E350. Even my little Ford Ranger has "C" frame rails. Maybe this has "Z" frame rails.
(http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo118/AM2_album/Transit_chassis_cab.jpg)
-
Thanks for the image Ron D.! The Ford and the forthcoming Fiat based Dodge Ram should really give the Sprinter a run for the money. I donot care what anyone says I think the Sprinters are over priced, noisey, not maintenance free and over their weight limit when they hit the road. On that note I am done passing judgement..to each his own. Thanks
-
I'm strictly an oversized Lego leveller kind of guy, but I have also seen that Sprinters do not lend themselves readily to being fitted with hydraulic levellers, both from a weight and a structural concern. Some sites raise the question of installing them, could you find them, might invalidate your warranty. This is another difference from comparing Sprinters (true class B van conversions) and Phoenix Cruisers on Ford chassis (class C without a cabover bed). The new Ford chassis does seem to have promise for a lighter, more economical platform.
Jerry
-
Sherman
We were in the same situation as you were 10 years ago. We were just retired and had never been camping. We were not sure what type of unit would meet our needs. We researched for a few years prior but still had alot of questions. One suggestion we have for you is that you could rent an RV for a weekend and get a first hand experience as to your dislikes and likes about the interior layout. If you do rent, make sure you get one with a corner bed, or a couch verus a dinette, one with a slide versus one without a slide etc.... To save the cost of fuel when you are renting, camp at a location close to the rental agency. You may not have you pick of manufacturers but you at will get a good idea as to what you like and dislike about the living arrangements.
Somethimes there are very good bargains out there for renting.
Sue
Thanks Sue, that's a great suggestion.
In fact, my wife and I were very anxious to rent a RV for a trip we took to visit family back in November of 2010, immediately after I retired. There may be good bargains out there, but I was unable find any at that time. We were primarily interested in the Sprinter-based rigs, and wanted to rent something similar to what we might eventually purchase. That proved to be impossible. I found a grand total of one (1) Sprinter-based RV for rent in the entire US, by an individual in CA. Even if we lived next door to her I doubt we would have rented it because of the cost. I can't recall the specific numbers off the top of my head, but it was in the neighborhood of $2,000 per week plus a mileage charge (on top of fuel and other expenses of course). The rigs that were the typical rentals were a bit less expensive to rent but they were RVs we would never consider purchasing -- cheaply constructed and way too long for our needs. I've driven just about everything shy of a semi or a dump truck (the largest straight trucks, 66 passenger Blue Bird buses, etc) but driving something that size across the country on state and local roads isn't my idea of a good time. ;-) We simply don't need a larger RV (no kids or grandkids) and I figure the shorter the better (as long as it works for us). If we were to rent a larger, mediocre RV we might decide we don't like RVing at all when really it was just the particular rig.
Had we been able to rent a Sprinter-based RV for a reasonable amount of money we would have jumped at the chance, but it wasn't meant to be -- at least not at that time. As the Sprinter-based rigs become more popular I imagine that will change. Well, at least they'll be more readily available -- I doubt the cost will come down. They'll likely continue be more expensive to rent than the typical RV.
I came away with the feeling that it might make more sense to just buy a used RV. Seriously -- the cost of renting was so high (thousands of dollars on top of the ordinary/routine expenses) that if a person got a decent deal on a used rig, put a few thousand miles on it over a year or two and sold it they might be better off, or break even.
I haven't given up on the rental idea though. It's possible that my wife and I will find someone locally who has a Sprinter-based rig that they'd like to rent for a more reasonable amount. One guy I correspond with has a 2006 WGO View that he figures costs him $1/mile to operate. That's probably high because he figures depreciation based on $75K purchase price and a 150K useful life. IOW, he assumes that at 150K it'll be worth $0. I told him I'll take it off his hands at that point (he has over 100K miles on it now and is currently on the road with his wife)! Anyway, let's say the total cost is $1/mile -- that includes everything: fuel, depreciation, insurance, repairs, maint., etc. If a rig like that were rented the customer would obviously be paying for the fuel, which is approx. $0.25/mile, so charging $1/mile would more than cover any expenses. I think $1/mile plus a nominal daily fee would be reasonable (and of course extra charges for excess wear and tear, cleaning, etc).
Who knows, I might find someone willing to do that -- particularly if they do not have the time or money to travel and their RV is just sitting in storage.
Sherman
-
Jerry:
You are right on the leveling jacks and Sprinters. On my 2010 Monaco Covina, Sprinter based, Monaco attempted and did a great job of making the center of gravity so low with how they hung the coach on the chassis there was honestly no way I could personnaly get under the coach and I am not and overly large guy so having the room to put jacks on was out of the question plus the weight of and average sysyem would have put the Covina way over weight. The issue I had was that the stock suspension was so weak for the coaches weight that there was alot of movement merely when you walked around in the coach. I like being able to put my jacks down and know I will not be twisting the E-450 frame all that much. Thanks
-
Thanks for the image Ron D.! The Ford and the forthcoming Fiat based Dodge Ram should really give the Sprinter a run for the money. I donot care what anyone says I think the Sprinters are over priced, noisey, not maintenance free and over their weight limit when they hit the road. On that note I am done passing judgement..to each his own. Thanks
Just curious -- in all of my reading and research I've never heard anyone state or even suggest that the Sprinter (or any other vehicle) is 'maintenance free'. Where did you hear that? Who is making that claim?
WRT CCC, Ford wins that one hands down -- even the E-350 has almost 1,500 pounds more CCC than the Sprinter. I'd rather have more CCC than I need than not enough, but there is such a thing as too much capacity as well. I have read posts here and elsewhere from people who complain about a rough ride -- particularly when one of the lighter coaches is built on the E-450 chassis.
Stuart told me that the Sprinter-based 2350 has between 1,700 and 2,000 pounds CCC (with or w/o slide). 1,700 pounds may not be adequate for some folks, but it is enough for my wife and I.
I have frequently read that many Sprinter-based rigs are often over-weight. I don't doubt that -- many mfrs make coaches that are heavier than PC's, and therefore their RVs have a lower CCC. I seem to recall reading about some that are under 1,000 pounds! 5 good size people on board and you're at the limit -- before any water, luggage, food, and other gear. I'm surprised they can get away with selling a rig with such a low CCC. Maybe a class B, but not a class C that's designed for longer trips and more passengers.
Luckily, that's not an issue with PC -- so, more points in the PC column!
-
I'm strictly an oversized Lego leveller kind of guy, but I have also seen that Sprinters do not lend themselves readily to being fitted with hydraulic levellers, both from a weight and a structural concern. Some sites raise the question of installing them, could you find them, might invalidate your warranty. This is another difference from comparing Sprinters (true class B van conversions) and Phoenix Cruisers on Ford chassis (class C without a cabover bed). The new Ford chassis does seem to have promise for a lighter, more economical platform.
Jerry
I've heard the same thing, yet I've never read one report of damage or a voided warranty due to hydraulic levelers.
Human nature being what it is, I assume we would hear about it if people were having problems.
Also, I doubt HWH, the RV mfrs, or M-B would want the headaches that would result if the Sprinter couldn't handle the levelers for some reason.
Again though, I have no personal experience -- my knowledge is limited to what I've read on RV-related groups and forums.
Sherman
-
“Also, the 2010 air mattress sofa/bed has a large drawer under it that we find very useful.” We too have the large drawer under our sofa in our 2011 Model 3100. We only have occasional guests but they think the air mattress is good. Sure wouldn't want to do without the drawer (pic). It’s great for storing the computer, printer, and longer items without having to accessing the storage under the driver’s side twin bed. It holds a lot of stuff.
That's something I forgot to ask Stuart about -- the available storage under the various sofa/beds.
Is the sofa/bed w/air mattress the only one that has storage? I know this was touched on somewhere above, but I can't recall if the others have any storage under them.
From everything I've read, the air mattress is almost universally disliked (this seems to be backed up by the fact that Stuart said PC is no longer using the sofa/bed w/air mattress) so I wouldn't try to find a rig with one just to get the storage, but it would be a shame to have to give up the additional space.
Thanks!
Sherman
-
I bought a perfect condition 2006 PC 2551 that was 4 years old with 4K miles and had been regularly maintained and stored inside. It was a great bargain. However, there are two things I've come to regret. The first is the non-HD TV and cheap entertainment center and the other is storage space. The electric sofa has NO storage available under it. The power mechanism takes up all the space. I don't know what the current models have, but the older models with electric sofa beds had no drawer under the sofa.
Jerry
-
I bought a perfect condition 2006 PC 2551 that was 4 years old with 4K miles and had been regularly maintained and stored inside. It was a great bargain. However, there are two things I've come to regret. The first is the non-HD TV and cheap entertainment center and the other is storage space. The electric sofa has NO storage available under it. The power mechanism takes up all the space. I don't know what the current models have, but the older models with electric sofa beds had no drawer under the sofa.
Jerry
Thanks Jerry, that's the kind of info I need!
I don't want to get hyper-focused on the storage issue, but it does seem to be a concern many people have -- especially with the relatively small rigs.
WRT the TV, would it be difficult to replace it with a plasma or LCD HDTV?
Sherman
-
I spoke with Sandy at M-B in NJ (877-762-8267).
She told me that 13 states are "exclusive" WRT warranty work: AR; CO; DE; FL; LA; NH; NJ; NY; OR; TX; UT; VT; and WI.
Exclusive means that warranty work must be done by a dealer for the specific brand, M-B for M-B or Freightliner for Freightliner.
The other 37 states are not exclusive and M-B can do warranty work for Freightliner and vice versa. This might explain the confusion regarding whether or not warranty work can be done by either M-B or Freightliner.
Out of warranty work can obviously be done by any qualified shop.
Sandy gave me the number of certified Sprinter repair facilities for each of four regions in the US:
N.E.:
F: 17
M-B: 29
Southern:
F: 18
M-B: 38
Western:
F: 10
M-B: 31
Central:
F: 16
M-B: 30
When I asked about which dealers will work on Sprinter chassis with a RV on them -- she said as long as the rig will fit into the shop they'll work on it.
Sherman
-
Sherman the only sofa with the drawer was the one with the air bed. The air mattress that came with our 2010 2350 was not very good. We ended up buying a $200 mattress that was much better and a whole lot more comfortable, still not the best bed for long term use.
As for storage, don't worry about it. When we bought our 2350 we were downsizing from a 35' Winnie class A with basement storage. I was amazed at how much stuff we put into the little PC. What happened was, it made us think about how much stuff we really needed to carry all the time. For example if we are going to Lancaster for the weekend, we don't carry the Weber grill (Q100) as we eat out for most of our meals. This saved space for shopping stuff and weight on the way up there. The only thing we had a problem with was the folding chairs for outside. If you search here you will find many different ways that people have come up with to store their chairs. I bought some overpriced chairs that fit laying down over the outside drawer. When I picked up the new 2552 I found out that the depth of that cabinet is shorter and the chairs would not lay flat, but they do stand up OK. I put some L brackets in the side wall that keeps them from sliding and trying to escape out the door. You will find that there is more than enough storage inside for a weeks worth of food, cokes and clothes. Beer depends on you. After that hit a laundry and a grocery store to resupply. I understand that you live in a 100 year old house, so you are not used to large walk-in closets like some people. If you get a Sprinter weight will be far more important that storage. I am with Stuart on which chassis is best, but to each his own. That is why they make different ones.
You better hurry up and get a PC because you are missing out on some great times RVing.
-
Just for my own sake I just called my local M-B dealer (Holliway M-B), they actually own all of the M-B dealers in NH (3), they do not service Sprinters at any of their locations and have no plans to do so since their service bays will not handle and RV sized vehicle and the volume of Sprinter based RV's in the marketplace would not warrant renovating their garages to handle such a vehicle I would have to venture a guess that many M-B dealers are in the same situation. The nearest dealer that could perform work on the Sprinter would be 1.15 hours away. I then called Freightliner of Boston (since MA would have a different M-B status) after being placed on hold for 7 mins the nice service manager said they could do warrenty work on M-B effective in the last few weeks but admitted that it is somewhat confusing on their end and in most cases if a M-B badged Sprinter came in they would most likley send it up the road to the nearby M-B dealer that does Sprinters. Not sure this is all a "show stopper" but I do not need anymore run arounds in my life and calling my local Ford dealer for any work is worth a whole lot to me. Again, best of luck and I would agree with other posters that you are sure missing out on a lot of fun by not just biting the bullet and making the big purchase from PC.
-
Sherman -- back to ya -- I have jacks on my Sprinter, and although new, they seem to function well -- used several times so far. Also, the milage is based one one trip of 1600 miles - 4 or 5 tanks and mostly interstate driving - I covered this previously, so won't beat a dead horse.
All that said, I heartily agree with others -- go buy something - but buy what YOU want, not what WE think you should have!!! :) Good luck, and I hope to see you in your new PC stop by on the way to the beach!!!!
Jack
-
To be totally fair, not all Ford dealers will work on motorhomes. The dealer in Columbia and Silver Spring will not work on them, but the Mt. Airy will do some minor maintance if you plead with them. Frederick will do anything and everything Ford related to them. Given where you live this might be your closest dealer.
My concern would be when traveling, and I have a chassis problem, will I be able to find a serving dealer within a reasonable distance. This goes for any motorhome chassis including the big boys.
-
JackD:
I hope you are planning to post your rough MPG's up on Ron D's thread? Since your Sprinter must have been one of the 50 that Kermit and Stuart purchased from Monaco it must be "spected" out just like my Monaco Covina was....therefore I must ask if you find the cab area excessively loud when doing 65MPH? There was not much insulation on the firewall on mine and I am sure PC has not done anything extra just like Monaco did not to soundproof the coach any. Thanks
-
I think I see now where the contradictory information on the ability to use hydraulic levellers on the Sprinter based motorhomes came from. The great majority of the earlier Sprinters were simply the standard long wheebase unibody vans equipped as motorhomes. The newer Class B and C motorhomes are now on a cab chassis unit resembling the Ford cutaway that has a real frame on it. The concern as I read it on some postings was that the old unibody did not take well to being torqued by lifting with a leveller and did not have good places to attach the leveller. I think that all went away with the more conventional frame.
Jerry
-
Regarding a Ford chassis:
As most emergency transport vehicles are based on a Ford Cutaway Chassis, ask your local Ambulance/EMT service where they have their vehicles serviced.
Regarding a Sprinter chassis: When's the last time you saw a Sprinter Ambulance?
-
Sherman the only sofa with the drawer was the one with the air bed. The air mattress that came with our 2010 2350 was not very good. We ended up buying a $200 mattress that was much better and a whole lot more comfortable, still not the best bed for long term use.
As for storage, don't worry about it. When we bought our 2350 we were downsizing from a 35' Winnie class A with basement storage. I was amazed at how much stuff we put into the little PC. What happened was, it made us think about how much stuff we really needed to carry all the time. For example if we are going to Lancaster for the weekend, we don't carry the Weber grill (Q100) as we eat out for most of our meals. This saved space for shopping stuff and weight on the way up there. The only thing we had a problem with was the folding chairs for outside. If you search here you will find many different ways that people have come up with to store their chairs. I bought some overpriced chairs that fit laying down over the outside drawer. When I picked up the new 2552 I found out that the depth of that cabinet is shorter and the chairs would not lay flat, but they do stand up OK. I put some L brackets in the side wall that keeps them from sliding and trying to escape out the door. You will find that there is more than enough storage inside for a weeks worth of food, cokes and clothes. Beer depends on you. After that hit a laundry and a grocery store to resupply. I understand that you live in a 100 year old house, so you are not used to large walk-in closets like some people. If you get a Sprinter weight will be far more important that storage. I am with Stuart on which chassis is best, but to each his own. That is why they make different ones.
You better hurry up and get a PC because you are missing out on some great times RVing.
Thanks Tom, good to hear from you!
Yep, I think it's safe to say that the air mattress was a 'live and learn' situation for the RV mfrs that use/used them.
I suppose the storage situation is similar to with a house. Any available space will be filled. Nature abhors a vacuum. I think we'll be fine, and your post reinforces that. My primary concern with any sofa/bed or dinette/bed is that it is comfortable (in both 'modes') or at the very least, the bed can be made comfortable with a memory foam topper. Extra storage is always welcome but I certainly wouldn't get the sofa/bed with the air mattress just for the storage! ;-)
I'd like to see how you have the chairs stored -- either photos or in person (I'm having a hard time envisioning it).
You're certainly correct about our lack of walk-in closets (we have a grand total of one closet, upstairs). In fact, any PC coach has more headroom than the second floor of our house -- well, measuring to the bottom of the attic floor joists anyway. People must have been much shorter back then... ;-)
-
Sherman -- back to ya -- I have jacks on my Sprinter, and although new, they seem to function well -- used several times so far. Also, the milage is based one one trip of 1600 miles - 4 or 5 tanks and mostly interstate driving - I covered this previously, so won't beat a dead horse.
All that said, I heartily agree with others -- go buy something - but buy what YOU want, not what WE think you should have!!! :) Good luck, and I hope to see you in your new PC stop by on the way to the beach!!!!
Jack
Thanks Jack, that's good to hear. I've read many similar posts over at the View-Navion Yahoo group. No complaints about the jacks/levelers, with the exception of the added weight -- particularly with the early model (2006-'07) I-5 Sprinter with the softer suspension and lower CCC.
It's easy to buy something -- I'm finding it harder to find what we want, but we will. ;-)
We'd love to stop by and see you -- even if we don't have a rig yet. We have family coming from Iowa the beginning of June and I know we'll be going to the beach with them.
-
To be totally fair, not all Ford dealers will work on motorhomes. The dealer in Columbia and Silver Spring will not work on them, but the Mt. Airy will do some minor maintance if you plead with them. Frederick will do anything and everything Ford related to them. Given where you live this might be your closest dealer.
My concern would be when traveling, and I have a chassis problem, will I be able to find a serving dealer within a reasonable distance. This goes for any motorhome chassis including the big boys.
The Frederick Motor Co. is 6 miles from our house -- that's where I bought my car (they sell Subarus also). That's a good sized facility and very old -- almost 100 years I think.
The service issue is definitely a concern for RVs in general, and particularly the Sprinter. IIRC, someone on the V-N Yahoo group figured that worst case a Sprinter-based RV owner might find themselves 300 or 400 miles from a service facility.
Of course when assessing risk, it's important to look at the probability as well as the severity of the risk. It is human nature for all of us to assign wildly varying degrees of weight to various risks that we all face. The _probability_ of something happening is often disregarded. Take people who have phobias -- the risk of stepping outside and being bitten by a rattlesnake or a spider is pretty remote for most of us, but there are people who obsess about that.
I'm not sure that's comparable to getting service on a Sprinter-based RV, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. Yes, it certainly possible that a person might need a 250-300+ mile tow to a service facility, but how likely is it that any modern vehicle will become completely disabled? Most, including the Sprinter, are pretty reliable these days. If that does happen, it probably won't be more than once or twice in the first say 100K miles. If/when it happens, what are the chances that the person will be in the absolute worst spot in the US, or more than say 150 miles from a service facility?
I'm not saying it's not an important consideration -- it is, even more so than with the Ford-based RVs -- just that in the overall scheme of things it doesn't seem to warrant the amount of attention and weight some people give it.
Now, having said that, we will of course suffer total engine failure in Minot, ND. ;-)
Sherman
-
I think I see now where the contradictory information on the ability to use hydraulic levellers on the Sprinter based motorhomes came from. The great majority of the earlier Sprinters were simply the standard long wheebase unibody vans equipped as motorhomes. The newer Class B and C motorhomes are now on a cab chassis unit resembling the Ford cutaway that has a real frame on it. The concern as I read it on some postings was that the old unibody did not take well to being torqued by lifting with a leveller and did not have good places to attach the leveller. I think that all went away with the more conventional frame.
Jerry
Very helpful Jerry, thanks!
-
The 3500 Sprinter is in fact unibody construction. the difference between the old frames and the newer style is the 3500 has and extra "spine" running thru it that I have been told is to add rigidity to the stamped box channels. HWH does offer the new low profile jacks specifically for the Sprinter and the jacks come with a saddle bracket that prevents the jack pressure from collapsing the channel. While a very strong design and what Ford will be offering with their new Transit model since it does lesson the weight considerably there is no comparison to the old frame rail cab on chassis approach that Ford, and GM has used for years. The local ABC affiliate utilized a couple of Sprinters for satelite trucks over the past couple of years for the increase in MPG. The frames became very fatigued and actually tore in places due to the torque/twisting caused by the raised antennas, they are back to the E-series.
-
This is what I was referring to as apparently a nonunibody Sprinter. This clearly has a frame on which to build your motorhome just as the Ford cutaway chassis.
http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/sprinter/cab-chassis/gallery (http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/sprinter/cab-chassis/gallery)
I assume this is what is now being used for motorhomes?
Jerry
-
I hope someone can chime in and help explain the differnces in frame constrution because obviously I am not getting the point across.....Ford and GM use "C" channel steel rails that are cross memebered up and the cab is afixed to the rails. the Sprinter utilizes a stamped box rail that gets it strength from the fact it is a closed "box" with cross memebers as well for more rigidity, the cab is and intregal part of the frame with the cab floor being stamped at the same time. The stamped and welded sheet metal is of course much thinner compared to the C channel and therefore the greater load capacity of the E series. Is one better that the other, I can not answer that for I am not and engineer but it sure would appear that the thicker C channel would take the punishment of todays roads better over time. Where am I wrong here? thanks
-
Maybe it's all semantics, but this quote regarding the original Sprinter and the cab chassis models seem to me to indicate, as does the picture in the previous url I posted, that the originals were unibodies and the newer heavy duty versions were cabs on a chassis. To quote Wiki, Cargo and passenger versions comprise of a unibody steel construction. Chassis versions come in cab or crew cab versions with frames that extend beyond the back of the cab. No big whoop, but it sure looks more substantial than the original tin cans on wheels.
Jerry
-
Hey Ragoodsp!!!
This discussion has become far too technical for me, but I'm enjoying the hell out of all the comments! I guess that's one of the benefits of this forum!!
For clarification, I just received my sprinter in Feb -- the date of manufacture is Nov. 2011. the date on the tires indicates the 28th week of 2011, so I don't think it is one of the 2008 chassis Stuart & Kermit bought in the sale.
Since I've only had the PC for a couple of months, and am waiting for the new sofa bed, we've only taken one trip to visit friends & plan a trip to Newfoundland this summer -- from MD to below Macon, GA - about 1500 miles (I think 1477 actually, with a few additional to the local station to top off the fuel). I didn't notice any exceptional noise in the cab at any particular speed (65-75 or other), in fact, much quieter than the 2006, 2350. There is insulation under the hood, and though I didn't check the firewall, there is no where near the heat from the floor. there was in either the 2350 or 2552. Most of the trip was on interstates, and 2 days each way -- 4 tank fills, yielding 14.3, 16.4, 16.8, & 17.6 mpg, for an average of 16.3. I'm hoping this will improve since the 17 figure was the last tank, and to be honest, I was driving 55-60 instead of 70.
I hope this helps -- I will try to post this on Ron's thread, but it's so "young" it may not be a good representation. I will be going to Elkhart when PC gets the new sofa, and will have more data.
Best,
Jack
-
Jack, that is very intersting data. Like you say, maybe your fuel consumption is improving as your drive through the break-in period.
Be sure to keep track of whole trips, considering all-around driving conditions, city, byway touring, etc. Those are most intriquing to me.
You know the statements like "I drove 5000 miles on vacation and averaged 00.0 considering sightseeing through Yellowstone, San Fransisco, across the great plains, all combined as a total vacation experience".
-
JackD: Thanks for the update. There is no doubt the PC coach is a far better fit on a Sprinter vs's some other manafacturers. The Monoco Covina had a full wall slide and bed over the cab and she was pushing her max weight limit when you loaded it all. Otherwise, a great looking coach
-
There is no doubt the PC coach is a far better fit on a Sprinter vs's some other manafacturers.
I always felt the same.
The only thing that is a pet peive of mine about the Sprinter, is how the rear wheels are inset so much farther on the Sprinter than the E350.
It just does not look right, seeming to be missing a tire. Nothing can be done about it. It is what it is.
(http://phoenixusarv.com/albums/2400_models/slides/20110816_21.jpg)
(http://phoenixusarv.com/albums/2350_models/slides/20110909_31.jpg)
-
I agree Ron, the rear track on the Sprinter does seem narrow -- the Ford looks better. Most mfrs' class C coaches look a bit too wide for the Sprinter.
I recall that this came up over on the RV.net forum a while back. Some people were questioning the relative stability of the Sprinter. Everything being equal, it would make sense that the Ford would have more inherent stability. The Sprinter may have more sophisticated electronic stability control (ESC) -- or not, I don't really know, but that might be a factor.
Both chassis seem to be able to 'keep the shiny side up' as the truckers say.
-
Regarding Sprinter service:
I emailed the guy I know who owns a 2006 WGO View that he bought new. He has over 100,000 miles on it (and is on the road right now with his wife). He had this to say:
"Dodge Sprinters must all be out of warranty by now. Mine is Dodge (of course) and I have no problem getting MB or Freightliner service, providing they sell Sprinters. The woman @ MB was confused. Moreover, I am treated as royalty."
I find it interesting how people have such wildly different experiences getting their Sprinters serviced.
Sherman
-
The Sprinter was engineered for European roads that for the most part are much more narrow compared to US roads. E-350,450's could never get where they thread Sprinters in those old Italian towns!
-
As an unbiased engineer, I don't credit stability control as having a complete ability to compensate for the difference in the rear track/wheel width to height ratio between the Sprinter and the Ford. Electronics cannot completely compensate for the physics regarding the moment of lever difference (the center of gravity is considerably lower on the Ford than the Sprinter and that is what, pound for pound, counteracts inertia/swaying once initiated).
I've driven both and the Sprinter is not as stable as the Ford on secondary roads. Try a fast lane change on both and you can easily experience the difference.
This is not an opinion but a statement founded on facts.
-
As an unbiased engineer, I don't credit stability control as having a complete ability to compensate for the difference in the rear track/wheel width to height ratio between the Sprinter and the Ford. Electronics cannot completely compensate for the physics regarding the moment of lever difference (the center of gravity is considerably lower on the Ford than the Sprinter and that is what, pound for pound, counteracts inertia/swaying once initiated).
I've driven both and the Sprinter is not as stable as the Ford on secondary roads. Try a fast lane change on both and you can easily experience the difference.
This is not an opinion but a statement founded on facts.
As an unbiased technician I agree. ;-)
All the electronics in the world cannot overcome the laws of physics -- only make the best of any given situation. Everything else equal, it stands to reason that the the vehicle with the wider track would be more stable. If the Ford also has a lower center of gravity then it should be even better yet.
I'm not doubting what you said about the center of gravity, just curious -- where did you get your information? I could search but I'm being lazy. ;-) It isn't something that comes up frequently in RV forums. In fact, IIRC, this is the first time I've ever discussed it with anyone. With the E-350/450 being heavier duty vehicles with much higher GVWRs I would have thought they might have the higher center of gravity -- or are you referring to the complete 2350/2400 rigs?
Thanks,
Sherman
-
Unless special ordered, the 2350 and 2400 models are built on E350 and Sprinter chassis. Consequently, the E450 chassis is irrelevant for this example.
The PC models built on the Ford E350 chassis are 9'10" high.
The PC models built on the Sprinter chassis are 10'1" high.
Simply judging from photos on the PC site, the rear extreme wheel width of the Sprinter is 10 to 12" narrower than the Ford.
A taller object on a narrower base results in a higher center of gravity and reduced resistance to sway and/or rollover (draw the triangles).
Granted, these are extremes and electronic stability control can help. But it cannot change the physics involved.
-
rmmpe:
Thank you very much for putting everything in perfect perspective and explaining very clearly physics 101 in regards to center of gravity theory. There is no doubt the Sprinter chassis is a durable chassis that I am sure will give years of service to the owner that maintains it well. No matter how advanced the electronic stability control sysyetm might be or how much after market equipment one should choose to put onto the chassis the bottom line is the chassis is still classified as "light duty" compared to the E series that is "light med. duty". M-B designed and engineered, and by the way did a great job creating a delivery van chassis that is now being adapted to RV use and in my opinion pushing the limits of the chassis. I guess I am ultra conservative in that I always think and plan for the worse case and hope for the best when it comes to driving and equipment safety. Having owned a Sprinter that despite that "Germany touch" that one has to appreciate I could not reconcile in my own mind that the chassis would perform the way I would want it to perform in that worse case situation. In closing....I would have to say the "upcharge" on a Sprinter is not due to the chassis/cab but all for that 3.0L engine that if you were ever to have to replace completely would cost you upwards of $17,000! It is a world class engine that is most likley worth those dollars I must say. Thanks
-
Please don't, for a minute, take what I said about the Sprinter in a negative manner. I've heard many good things about them and for those that prefer a bit better fuel economy and/or travel lighter than we do, the Sprinter appears to be a viable decision.
I just prefer the Ford chassis for many of the reasons stated by others. And that it supports the 2551 & up boxes.
-
Unless special ordered, the 2350 and 2400 models are built on E350 and Sprinter chassis. Consequently, the E450 chassis is irrelevant for this example.
The PC models built on the Ford E350 chassis are 9'10" high.
The PC models built on the Sprinter chassis are 10'1" high.
Simply judging from photos on the PC site, the rear extreme wheel width of the Sprinter is 10 to 12" narrower than the Ford.
A taller object on a narrower base results in a higher center of gravity and reduced resistance to sway and/or rollover (draw the triangles).
Granted, these are extremes and electronic stability control can help. But it cannot change the physics involved.
As I said, I agree. We're on the same page here.
ESC, etc, can only make the best use of the available traction. The laws of physics still apply.
Assuming the coaches are identical (placement of water tanks, appliances, cabinets, etc) then the Sprinter would be slightly more top-heavy since it's 3" taller.
The track of the Ford is clearly wider and that increases stability.
I am still curious about the center of gravity of each cab chassis and each complete RV -- but from their appearance, without having any additional info, I'd feel safer traversing a slope or driving through heavy cross winds in the Ford.
-
I know nothing about this company, but this is a nice review of the latest generation Sprinter that I came across while searching for center of gravity info:
http://www.rvmotoring.com/07_dodge_sprinter.html
Of course, they could be paid off by M-B. ;-)
-
A very impressive list of companies that Mercedes-Benz partners with:
http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/owners/equip
They must be doing something right.