Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: classact on October 30, 2011, 10:13:42 pm
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Howdy folks,
Just curious how you wouid rate the ride quality in your PC, and further how you would compare it to other motorhomes (whether Class A or Class C) that you have owned.
We hope to one day own a PC. We now have a Jayco Melbourne on a E450 chassis. We had to do some considerable work on the suspension to bring the ride up to "acceptable" for us. In our case, getting rid of the "helper" or "override" springs and adding a couple leafs, then also adding the MOR/ryde system, which significantly improved the ride quality.
Just curious how you would rate the ride quality in your PC, as that's an important factor to us.
Many thanks,
Mike
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Before the PC we had a class A hurricane by Thor ( they own the company that make the Hurricane. On the A we added a steering stabilizer, Sumo stabilizers (their look like air bags but there made of a cellulose), worked rather well, fit between the frame and front leaf springs. Added a read trac-bar. All this helped a lot. When we purchased the PC I felt it needed a rear Trac-bar, surprising enough it did not help all that much. With all that said the PC felt like riding on a cloud compared to the A. I do have the steering stabilizer of the A and will adapt it to the PC and probably when needed up grade the shocks. Other than that I'm as happy as a pig in slop! (cheer)
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Prior to the 2011 PC 2551, we had a PC 2010 2350 on the Sprinter chassis. The ride on the Sprinter was 200% better than the 2551 on the Ford E450.
We have taken it to a Ford dealer, our MH repair shop here in Florida and spoken to Kermit at the factory regarding the ride. It is the hardest ride we have ever experienced. Every bump it feels like we are going to lose our teeth.
It seems that the solution to the ride problem is adding airbags, taking out a leaf in the springs, changing the shocks or all of the above. We are probably going to try the leaf spring approach to see if that helps.
Our 2551 does not have a slide so it is significantly lighter than those with the slide, so that may contribute to the harder ride.
That being said, we love the Coach so eventually we will fix the ride.
Judi and George
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Hi George,
Have you had the PC weighted yet? If you do and you check the Michelin tire charts, you will probably find that the tires air pressure on the Ford door is way to high. By the charts I needed to drop my 2350 on the E450 down to 65 PSI. I dropped both the front and rear to 70 PSI. The ride is much better to me.
As far as the main post, the ride is a matter of personal taste. Each of us has made different changes and some we like and some we don't. The only thing that rides and handles really good cost several hundred thousand dollars and says "Prevost" on the grill.
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I have a 2551 on the E-450 and will say the ride is hard, especially when running a light load. On the positive side it does make you feel good that you know you have something "rugged" under you and even when fully loaded you will most likely have close to 2000 lbs in load capacity to max out the chassis. I recently put some new Bilstiens on and I must say it has improved the ride considerably and the handling was improved as well, not significantly, but perhaps 30%. I all so backed the air pressure down five pound each all the way around, still easily carries the load according to Michelin and my local tire dealer. I had 2009 Monaco Covina on a Sprinter and while the ride may have been better than the Ford I feel stongly the ride was at the expense of control. The chassis was nearly maxed out before you even loaded anything into it. In fairness, the Covina was nearly a foot taller than any PC on a Sprinter so I am sure that made the chassis as "tippy" as it was and you may not have that sensation with a PC. I have had 38' A's with air bag suspension and to be honest I always thought they rode hard as well; not sure you are going to get a true smooth ride until you get up into a dual axle, true air ride suspension chassis. I feel strongly the E-450 is one tough chassis and PC has engineered their coachs very well to have good weight balance resulting in good vehicle control. What you do not want and I have expeienced, is the sensation that the coach is over powering the suspension of the chassis in and emergency situation. best of luck
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We had a 2008 2350 and the first thing we did was have the front end alignment done. The next thing was to have the Heavy Duty Bilstein shocks on the front only. Finally, we installed the blue ox tiger trac to eliminate the body sway from side to side. What a huge improvement on the 2350. We drove the RV in wind gusts up to 50 mph and there were no issues. The RV now drives like a typical F-150 with a cap. This trac bar is different than the sway bar. We have kept the original front and rear sway bars. We are very pleased with the ride and drivability.
We now have a 2012 2551 and the handling of this RV was great right out of the factory. At this time the only thing I'm looking at doing is a front end alignment (normal for a new RV) and a set of Bilstein shocks.
When I start doing suspension modifications I do one modification at a time and verify the results. Also, high tire pressure will give you a rough ride. Tire pressure of 80 PSI is the max that the LT225/75R16 can be inflated to. The actual inflation pressure is based upon the weight of the loaded RV.
Here is a link to Michelin RV Tire inflation tables.
http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/tires-retreads/load-inflation-tables.jsp
Barry
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Hi George,
Have you had the PC weighted yet? If you do and you check the Michelin tire charts, you will probably find that the tires air pressure on the Ford door is way to high. By the charts I needed to drop my 2350 on the E450 down to 65 PSI. I dropped both the front and rear to 70 PSI.
We have had it weighed. Total weight is 10,840 with fuel and water. We haven't weighed it with all our "stuff" onboard. The tires all around are 70 PSI. According to Michelin's chart, we can go as low as 50 PSI. I am thinking of lowering another 5 lbs.
George
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Thanks for the replies everyone, and keep them coming! It's interesting how everyone seems to approach ride issues a little differently.
I would encourage anyone who is trying to remedy a harsh ride to consider the MOR/ryde suspension system. It's not terribly expensive and it greatly softened the ride on our unit. More info here: http://www.morryde.com/aftermarket/suspension/rs-suspension-system-41.html My disclaimer - I am not affiliated with MOR/ryde in any way. We discovered the company after returning from a trip to Texas driving through Arkansas (need I say any more?!) and my wife proclaiming "I don't care how much it costs we HAVE to figure out something to make it ride better!".
Seems a mystery to me that a company like PC wouldn't go ahead and put Bilstein's or Koni shocks on their units right out of the factory. Seems like something many folks do anyway.
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Our stock 2551 and the new 2552 ride very wll.
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Seems a mystery to me that a company like PC wouldn't go ahead and put Bilstein's or Koni shocks on their units right out of the factory. Seems like something many folks do anyway.
I always thought that PC-USA should offer a "Handling Package" option on the E-Series to include the following.
- heavy duty front and rear stabilizer bars
- Bilstein or Koni-RV shocks
- rear trac bar
- heavy duty front steering stabilizer
- front wheel alignment
Our 2007 2350 on a 2007 E350 chassis drove like a druken sailor until after these upgrades. Now it resembles the handling of an SUV. With 1000 pounds of chassis weight margin when loaded on trips, the quality of the ride is quite comfortable.
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Seems a mystery to me that a company like PC wouldn't go ahead and put Bilstein's or Koni shocks on their units right out of the factory. Seems like something many folks do anyway.
I always thought that PC-USA should offer a "Handling Package" option on the E-Series to include the following.
- heavy duty front and rear stabilizer bars
- Bilstein or Koni-RV shocks
- rear trac bar
- heavy duty front steering stabilizer
- front wheel alignment
Our 2007 2350 on a 2007 E350 chassis drove like a drunken sailor until after these upgrades. Now it resembles the handling of an SUV. With 1000 pounds of chassis weight margin when loaded on trips, the quality of the ride is quite comfortable.
I believe that Phoenix does what it does because everyone thinks what they need and/or want is different, so they don't do anything and let the customer do it themselves. This is the reason they do not install towel bars and toilet paper holder but wait for the customer to bring their own and tell them where they want them installed.
Ron put everything on his in one big step and is happy with what he did. I don't agree with his way of doing it. I upgraded my 2350 from the E350 to the E450 when it was built. I then put Bilstein shocks on, had an alignment done and drove it for awhile. I put the Roadmaster rear anti-sway bar on and could hardly tell any difference. If I was to keep this unit, I would not add anything more. I my new PC 2552, I plan on driving it the 600 plus miles home from the factory to check out the ride and handling. Then I will probly order Bilstein shocks and an alignment. Then I will see what happens before adding anything else.
One of the fun things about owning a PC is making mods during the build and afterwards on our own. Then coming on here and talking about them.
Back in 1989 I owned a Pace Arrow class A that had the Mor-ride on it. The ride was pretty good. Yesterday I called the Mor-ride folks and talked to them. Since they are located in Elkhart and I am picking up my new PC in Elkhart I was thinking I could have them install it right after I got it. The price of $795 plus tax plus 6-7 hours labor at $79 an hour seems a little high not knowing how this new unit is going to ride. I will put this off for now.
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Tom,
You've got the right idea and suggest you put 50 or so miles on yours before you finally sign off to accept delivery.
The longer wheelbases of the 2551 and 2552 on an E450 chassis is far different than a 2350 on an E350 chassis.
I drive somewhat crisply and have not found any real reason to make any changes on ours after 3500 miles. We just have to remember we're not driving a sports car.
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I only have my in-laws 1997 Safari (class A) and a rental Cruise America class C to compare with but our 2008 2551 seems to ride exceptionally better than those. I get tired driving the Safari (it's all over the road) and the rental lacked responsiveness to even gross adjustments.
:cool
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My own two cents -
Many years ago, when moving a friend, we had rented an E-series cutaway moving truck. Had to have been the then-E450 chassis based on box size alone, and was advertised to have "air-ride" suspension.
Under a full load (including an upright piano), handled quite well, full or empty on local streets under 45 MPH, and was quite peppy, more or less keeping up, and competitive with, ordinary cars.
Anyway, we were quite pressed for time in getting to a store before it closed, and with a full load that included a number of mirrored and glassed furniture pieces resting perpendicularly and directly on the load floor (hey, it was the 80's LOL!), I mindlessly blew into the parking lot at about 40 MPH.
At that time, tall and sharply contoured speed bumps were the order of the day in the malls of the past! As I rapidly approached the first bump, I winced - the certain destruction of all delicated items aboard certainly doomed to my carelessness, yet sharp braking would have resulted in equal destruction of our load! Yet we flew over it with narry a jar nor bobble! Wow! This "air-ride" was great! We proceeded onwards at 40 MPH! It was truly amazing!
For those Francophiles among us, just as if you ran over a cow with a Citroen auto. Wow!
Don't know about RV's or trucks, but it seems any autos with air suspension years ago were subject to considerable maintenance requirements and cost.
Were superior ride quality and handling a must, along with many miles driven per year, I can say it would probably be worth the cost of air suspension for me. You'd never spill a drop of gin and tonic, and you ladies could probably apply make-up underway.
I would decide it to be unaffordable for myself - but for those of you who can, do look into it. Miracles are available.
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Tom
I spoke with Kermit about the Mor-ride system. He suggested staying away from it. He described a problem with a PC that had the Mor-Ride installed. That system caused flexing of the coach resulting in a cracked roof. You might want to speak with him before you make any decision.
George
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Thanks George, I will talk to Kermit when I pick up the new PC. Getting closer to that day and I can hardly wait.
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We just took our used 2007 2350 out for our first weekend. The road west out of Pedtaluma, CA toward the coast is smooth blacktop with both curves and hills. The PC felt like a sports car to us. Stiff for small bumps. When the road tilted left, the coach followed. There was never any rolling motion that wasn't an echo of the road's surface. No bouncing up and down after a bump.
We had a full load of fuel and water and not much else. Just our pillows and jammies.
I'd say the ride was fantastic. I'll look underneath later and let you know if there are any
apparent suspension mods. I've sure given up on the supplemental mods like Ron made
for now!
Bill and Diane
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Bill & Diane,
First look underneath the rig, just behind the rear axle. Is there a bar that goes left to right? If so, somebody previously had added a rear sway bar. The 2006/2007 Ford E350 chassis is not equipped with one back there when it was brand new.
About the front sway bar, if the ends of the front bar goes through holes into the lower control arms with rubber grommets, then you have the stock front sway bar.
Let me know what you find. If you are picture savy, then take some pics and share them.
If you have no upgrades of any kind, I will then ask you to perform a small easy experiment when driving your 2350 next time.
Look through my post here to see my aftermarket sway bars to give you an idea of what to be looking for.
http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,8.0.html (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,8.0.html)
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Hi Folks,
Second weekend cruise, and I've looked more carefully under the rig. There's a front anti-sway bar
that fits into holes in the axles? There's nothing like an anti-sway bar on the rear.
What was that experiment, Ron?
P.S. Got a longer fix-it list this time, including the water pump surge tank. It's really noisy the way
that it is!
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The pre-2008 E350 chassis does not come with a rear sway bar of any kind. The front bar is the same one installed on an E150 van, so how good is that one for such an extreme application? If you are a do-it-yourselfer, you could buy heavy duty Helwigs off the internet fairly reasonable. My brother and I installed a rear on his E350 motor home without issues and he was very happy with the improvement. I encouraged him to get a front bar, but he kept his original with worn bushings too.
I went all out spending $3900 from a local specialty shop which makes our 2007 E350 PC chassis handle beautifully. I'll never know if I went overboard, but I can say it was well worth every penny. I had them install both front and rear heavy duty sway bars, rear trac bar, heavy duty front steering stabilizer, all shocks replaced with Koni made-for-motor home, and a front end alignment. What I learned about all this back then, I would do in a particular order to see how little money I could get by with. At an absolute minimum, I strongly advise to get front and rear heavy duty sway bars and a front end alignment, then go from there.
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I find the 2551 to have an improved ride, with alignment, safe-t-break and bilsteins. It drives more like a panel truck, and the total cost for these three services is about $1,100.
The alignment shop put our tires at 85 lbs, need to check that out based on other comments.
ge.montana
2551S
2010
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I find the 2551 to have an improved ride, with alignment, safe-t-break and bilsteins. It drives more like a panel truck, and the total cost for these three services is about $1,100.
The alignment shop put our tires at 85 lbs, need to check that out based on other comments.
ge.montana
2551S
2010
See the link below for weight info on my 2010 2551S, I am now running 70 psi front and rear and find the ride and handling to be great.
Bob
http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,656.msg4381.html#msg4381
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More air in the tires will improve handling by reducing tire sidewall sloshing. It also improves fuel economy a bit. But you get a harsher ride, uneven threadwear, and lesser grip on the road.
My PC has a sticker on the driver door piller, placed by PC-USA. stating 65 front, 60 rear. I add 5 psi more all around because the tires look too flat, and I like the handling & fuel economy better. So far I don't see uneven thread wear, but I only have 14k on the chassis.
I really need to do what bobander did and get my rig weighed while on a multi-week trip. Then go from there to get it right.
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More air in the tires will improve handling by reducing tire sidewall sloshing. It also improves fuel economy a bit. But you get a harsher ride, uneven threadwear, and lesser grip on the road.
In my experience, higher pressure than necessary on the front tires also results in sloppy steering response. My understanding is that the overinflated tire has less contact with the road (as Ron mentioned) and therefore less control when steering. I have experienced this with my previous truck/camper and with the PC. The door sticker on my 2010 2551S applied by PC specifies 75 front and 80 rear, too high according to the Michelin load/weight info when considering the actual weights of the loaded RV. See my referenced link above for more info on actual weights for my 2010 2551S.
Bob
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Awesome comments all. Really appreciate everyone chiming in.
With regard to the MOR/ryde causing a "flexing of the coach causing a cracked roof" - I can't fathom how the MOR/ryde could be the cause of this. Our experience has been that it not only softened the ride but stablized the handling as well. The system has been used in many ambulance vehicles, airport shuttles, and other applications where ride quality is especially important. Just speaking from my own experience here. While I hope that any coach we purchase in the future won't need any ride issues addressed (I know, dream on) I wouldn't hestitate to add them to a coach in the future.
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Hi Folks,
Our 2350 rides very well. We've tried it on rolling, hilly roads (with full water and camping stuff) and loved the positive feeling of control, and of knowing what the chassis is doing. I looked under the rig and found what looks like a factory-installed anti-sway bar on the front, and nothing other than springs and shocks on the back.
Ron suggested that we might do an experiment with the rig. Ron?
Bill
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BandD, Try these experiments.
Stand in the back of your 2007 2350 just forward of the bed, face forward and see if you can rock the rig side to side. Make sure it is not closely parked to a wall or tree or something. How successful are you?
While driving at about 20 -25mph, pretend a child just darted out into the street and do a quick maneuver, quick-left, quick-right, quick straight. Do it with someone in back to observe what happens. Does the rig tip and tilt with the rear all over the road? Are you able to maintain good control? Try it again, the 2nd time brake hard while doing that.
Have someone in back while in a tight 180 degree turn in a parking lot. Maybe have them do it while you are outside observing. Does the rear of the rig lean hard while in the turn?
A rig leaning very hard means one pair of rear wheels has very little load, and the other pair is over-loaded. That in itself is not the concern. The concern is braking hard under this condition. You need your brakes to do their best under the worst of circumstances.
Picture yourself winding down a canyon byway applying the brake while taking the turns. Imagine yourself misjudging a sharp curve causing you to slam the brakes. You get the picture. You want all 6 tires firmly planted while braking hard in sharp turns. Don't say you don't drive that way. Your day will come when you misjudge a tight turn with steep drop-offs abound. The condition is agravated further with a tow vehicle.
Even if you only add a rear heavy duty sway bar to your older chassis lacking any type of rear bar, that will have the greatest impact. But I would not stop there.
My brother with his little 21' Starflyte on a 1998 E350 swore his rig handled fine. I convinced him to invest in a rear HD sway bar anyway. Afterward he said it was miraculous. He had no idea it could improve so much. I never could convince him to invest further.....especially replacing his front sway bar with worn out bushings.