Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: echo11 on August 07, 2011, 09:48:55 pm
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Hi,
I am hoping to get advice concerning emptying and filling the water tank. I have a 2011 2350PC. The first time draining an almost full tank, with the low drain valve open and the faucets open, the water dribbled out. How long should it take to empty the tank? It took a little more than 3 hours. Is that normal? Is there something that can be done to speed it up?
We also had a difficult time filling the tank. It just kept backing up and not going into the tank. We had to keep starting and stopping. We used a regular water hose with nothing special on the end. Is there a special nozzle that needs to be used? Is there a trick to this?
We are really frustrated. Any thoughts about filling and emtiying would be most appreciated!
Thanks-
Roni
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I think you have 3 possible culprits
- vent tube is kinked or blocked (I suspect this is your most likely problem)
- filler tube is kinked
- plastic debris is blocking the drain port (common to many brands of motor homes)
Access to all is done by unscrewing the rear section of the bed platform
You can first perform a simple test. Put 10 gallons or so in the tank. Drain the tank, getting the dribble action. Then remove the filler cap. If it suddenly flows fast, you have a blocked or kinked vent tube.
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Ron,
I'll look under the bed tomorrow to see if I see any kinks. I will also try uncapping the filler cap to see if it makes a difference.
If there is plastic in the tank itself, is there any way to get that out?
Thanks for your help!
Roni
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I have a 2010 2350, and experinced the same slow fill/drain you're having. In mine, the access to the tubing is in the front non-screwed down section under the bed. I found the vent hose was kinked (cut too short for the installation), so I replaced it. It was also full of mold. The filler hose had a bow half way in that I corrected with snap ties. I also found plastic remnants in the drain outlet from the tank when I disconnected the drain hose. I no longer have fill problems, but the drain is still very slow. I blew compressed air up the drain valve once, and it did help for a while--but eventually returned to the slow drain. With the fill problem fixed, I decided I could live with the slow drain.
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Hi:
I agree with Ron on all counts. I also had a 2010 2350 with slow drain. The drain pipe is very small so I replaced mine with a bigger hose . In the past I also used an air compressor when I was draining .. give it a try.
David
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I have had this type of drain problem on a trailer and another motorhome and both cases were debris left in the tank from drilling for various fittings or drilling to put the sensors in. Frustrating that the manufacturers can not afford a vacuum cleaner to clean up the potential problems for the customer. I believe that drain hose on my PC is only 3/8", so it would not take much plastic drilling debris to slow the flow in the drain hose or the valve itself, and then you probably would not be able to close the valve again.
A sag in the fill hose will definitely cause the fill process to be very slow and could stop the fill entirely. When removing the sag be sure to allow for contraction of the fill hose in the winter.
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My drain is also very slow, takes hours and hours to drain. What I do is to pump the water into the sinks with the gray water tank open. It is much faster but I don't like running the pump that long. Then again if the pump dies, I can get a new better pump and slove another issue.
There is an attachment for the end of the hose that is a smaller diameterer clear tube which is about six inches long. I only see them in the RV stores every now and then, so they are hard to find sometimes. You insert this into the water fill and you can turn on the water full force. Just stand back because when the tanks fills up the water it will come gushing out pass the hose. If you are to close you are going to get wet. >(
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I must have gotten lucky with mine as I can fill the tank with the hose full blast. The drain valve also goes as fast as the diameter of the tube permits. The water cooler style valve for the drain must be perfectly positioned for fast draining. Any amount off-center, and it slows down a lot.
Interesting about the mold in the vent tube getting brought up. We all need to be real good about bleaching our plumbing. Especially with the hot & humid weather.
I've had my PC outside this summer while our college son is home for the summer, mudding and painting the inside of the garage, painting it white, for minimum wage as he could not find part time employment. With the PC out all summer, inside the fridge, even with the fridge doors open a bit, a little mold formed on the aluminum fins, and little specs about the fridge interior. It has me wondering what else is going on that I don't see.
I now have the PC parked close to the garage where it can be plugged in all the time. I set the roof a/c to kick on when it gets real hot inside to remove moisture. All windows and vents sealed tight. All interior cabinet and bath doors and fridge are wide open too. Dinette bench cushions placed to ventilate the bench storage. It looks like the place is haunted. :lol I can once again smell the leather. heartshower
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Thanks for all the suggestions. At least I know I am not the only one with these issues.
I went out this morning and removed the bottom panel under the bed. I did not see any kinks in the lines. The vent hose line is clear. with no visible mold. The intake line is not see through. Both hoses are almost level with no visible kinks. They run side by side straight back from the intake area to the side of the tank. They do dip down a little in the middle. Maybe something is inside the intake line that I can't see. Since I don't feel comfortable taking it off to look, I will bring it in to the RV repair place to check for me. While I am there I will ask about suggestions for the sluggish drain.
I guess the good news is that nothing is leaking under there!
I am thinking of trying to use more water pressure. Since it wasn't going it and was coming back out, I was using very little pressure hoping it would "slide" through. Since the line doesn't tilt down to the tank, maybe more pressure is needed?
All your thoughts and suggestions are appreciated! I will keep you updated on my progress.
Roni
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If you have access to compressed air, as others mentioned, try to blow air into the vent tube and also into the drain tube. If you notice an immediate improvement, that means you blew out an obstruction. If it returns, it means the obstruction found it's way back. It could even be a piece of plastic that never completely broke away when the hole was drilled. It could be hanging inside the tank right at the hole. It could be flopping around, immediately returning to obstruct the hole.
Such little irritations do occur with most motor homes, Phoenix Cruisers and all the other brands. Once we get past them, we generally do fine. Sometimes we will look at what went wrong and say......."Come on guys. It's not hard to do this right." That's the price for non-automation, "hand crafted" products. Still, a lot comes down to engineering & design, manufacturing processes, training, inspecting, and every worker taking great pride in their work. Phoenix USA does much better than most, but obviously not so good when it comes to the fresh water tank that many here have similar stories with it.
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I must have gotten lucky with mine as I can fill the tank with the hose full blast. The drain valve also goes as fast as the diameter of the tube permits. The water cooler style valve for the drain must be perfectly positioned for fast draining. Any amount off-center, and it slows down a lot.
Me too (cheer)
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I guess the frustrating part of these issues, is that some of us are capable and willing to troubleshoot and repair most of these discrepancies. But, on the other hand there are those that do not have that ability/capability. I had a water leak in the outside rear compartment and it took me several days to finally locate the area where the water was coming in, I thought. Guess what, there were several areas around the frame that had voids in the sealant. When you think you have it solved, only to find another leak source. Had the same with two crank-out windows. The dual pane seals had failed and became full of water. Kermit sent me new ones and I installed them. So, it is nice that those of us who can do these things can assist those that need a little help. My hat is off to All providing this internet help through the PC forum and especially to Aimee for managing this valuable asset.
Bob
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When it comes to owning a motor home, if you are not "handy", you are in big trouble because motor homes require a lot of hands-on attention. Especially in the beginning when new, and then later after it has seen significant use.
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Well I decided to chime in, I too had some "plastic" in one tank in my first trailer. IT WAS IN THE POOP TANK >( >( >(
With a bit of luck I was able to get it out, please don't ask?
Yup, you're right Ron, if you're not handy, better be rich. (cheer) (cheer)
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The continuing saga of the fresh water fill and drain-
We picked up a funnel with a flexible neck. We thought maybe that would help to get a better angle to fill the tank. We tried that first without touching the line. Didn't help- the water came back out. Then we tried holding the line more level- didn't make a difference. We don't have access to compressed air. I will call the RV fix-it place tomorrow. Easy things we will try to fix. When it involves water or electricity and we're not sure how to do it, we are smart enough to know to get help. The RV place is expensive, but we try to watch and learn. While we are there we will ask about checking the extremely slow drain.
We will let you know how it turns out!
Roni
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The fill on our 2008 2551 seems to be ok. I have had the water come back @ me 1 or 2X during the fill process but a small adjustment in feed pressure seemed to take care of that. Also, once the tank gets near full, sometimes the "sloshing" created by the feed water makes a "wave" & splashes out the air vent (usually when I'm looking in wondering what that sound is!) prior to the tank actually being totally full (not that you would ever need it to be completely topped off). My drain is also slow but not appreciably so for the size valve it is. Like Ron D indicates, any small divergence from the valve "sweet spot" causes a large difference in emptying volume. We've also learned to run down the tanks as we approach the end of our trips. Once we get home, we usually dump 1st then use the draining water to assist w/cleanup.
:cool
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Roni:
I hope things work out for you.
I reading this post again and had another thought. On my old Palomino trailer the fill was a problem too. I had an easy fix, which might work for you too. I went to the dollar store and bought the smaller size water hose. When I got home I cut off the male end completely. I then was able to attach the female end to the spigot and run the "maleless" end all the way down the fill tube and into the actual tank itself. I turned on the water full blast and filled the tank. If was able to tell when the tank was full by the sound and also looking at the monitor. This was a cheap and easy fix. The nice thing about the cheap hose was that it bent along with the fill tube to fit into the tank. I did have to use a little force to get around a bend, but it worked great.
David
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On our 3100 the fill is under the passenger bed. I installed a 4' piano hinger It's easy for me but the first thing I would do is check the sir vent.
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This is what I use to fill my tank. Never had a kickback of water. I do not believe the picture came out but I retrieved it off the Camping World website.
Bob
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Fill your water tank in a fraction of the usual time and eliminate “bubble-back.“
Large 5/8" fill tube allows you to fill your camper, trailer or motorhome water tank at or near full pressure while minimizing line backflow. Quarter-turn pressure-sealed valve allows you to selectively control water flow. 9 1/2"L.
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Thanks for the suggestions. At this point, I would like to get both the intake line and the slow drain looked at to understand what the problem is. We have an appointment at the repair place on Tues. I'll report back.
I especially liked the suggestion of the piece that inserts into the intake hose. It looks like it makes the whole process a lot easier!
This forum is great. This is our first RV and the info and help this forum provides is outstanding!
Roni
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GL1500 that is what I was trying to explain in my earlier post. I could not find it on the Camping World site then but due to your post I found it.
http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/product/water-tank-fillers/594
It does help when filling the tank.
Thanks
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Tom,
Thanks for the help. The picture shows it very well.
Bob
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I have one of the fill tubes as well --- makes a world of difference...
Jack
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Hi,
We are back from our serivce appointment for the fresh water intake and drain problem. I want to mention that while we were at the service place we spoke with Kermit and the tech also spoke with him. We think it is great that Kermit is so accessible. The tech couldn't believe that we were able to speak to the owner of the company. Here are the results-
The intake issue- The tech did agree that the intake line was almost at the same height at the intake and at the tank itself, approximately maybe a 1" difference- not allowing the tank to fill by gravity. He also checked both the intake line and vent tube and confirmed they were not blocked. Since there was no way to change the height of the intake area, he tried some different alternatives. Ultimately, the best approach was to use a long intake tube that was mentioned and pictured on the forum. Hopefully, this will work for us.
The very slow drain- After poking and working on this problem, the solution is to open both the hot and cold low drain point and to run the water pump. What an amazing difference. We couldn't really find out whether the tank drain was blocked or not.
Initially, when we took off the mattress to get to the water tank, we realized that the framing/ edging along the bottom half of the bed area, around the panel we needed to remove, was not secure to the wall by the bottom edge of the bed. Also the far end, near the outside wall of the RV was not supported and was bending down and breaking off. The tech secured that for us.
We are pleased with the results of our appointment and wanted to share the results with the forum.
Thanks for everyone"s thoughts on this-
Roni
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It sounds like everything you experienced could have been avoided with improved factory assembly, a "workmanship" problem more than anything else. Sorry to hear about that. Hopefully the factory learned from it and will pay closer attention from now on. It seems, either the filler door was mounted to low on the outside of the RV, or the inlet hole on the water tank was drilled too high. Or, maybe I am out in left field on this one.
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Hi,
We are back from our serivce appointment for the fresh water intake and drain problem. I want to mention that while we were at the service place we spoke with Kermit and the tech also spoke with him. We think it is great that Kermit is so accessible. The tech couldn't believe that we were able to speak to the owner of the company. Here are the results-
The intake issue- The tech did agree that the intake line was almost at the same height at the intake and at the tank itself, approximately maybe a 1" difference- not allowing the tank to fill by gravity. He also checked both the intake line and vent tube and confirmed they were not blocked. Since there was no way to change the height of the intake area, he tried some different alternatives. Ultimately, the best approach was to use a long intake tube that was mentioned and pictured on the forum. Hopefully, this will work for us.
The very slow drain- After poking and working on this problem, the solution is to open both the hot and cold low drain point and to run the water pump. What an amazing difference. We couldn't really find out whether the tank drain was blocked or not.
Initially, when we took off the mattress to get to the water tank, we realized that the framing/ edging along the bottom half of the bed area, around the panel we needed to remove, was not secure to the wall by the bottom edge of the bed. Also the far end, near the outside wall of the RV was not supported and was bending down and breaking off. The tech secured that for us.
We are pleased with the results of our appointment and wanted to share the results with the forum.
Thanks for everyone"s thoughts on this-
Roni
I had the same problem on the bed framing. Once I figured out how I wanted to reenforce the rails and add support to the floor area there did not look to be enough structure to screw to for ''real'' support. Worked it out by using screws to hold things in place while Gorilla glue did it's thing. Nothing moves in that area now that isn't supposed to. Lack of space to work in also made it a bit of a cut and test proposition.
L. G.
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I hope this doesn't appear to be hijacking this topic but a bit of related information would be helpful to me.
Our previous 2551 and this 2552 have an exterior water tank drain.
Not having had to winterize the 2551 because we got it last March and the 2552 we got in June is still enjoying Summer, am I missing something or are there no low water drains on these models?
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Hi Echo11,
It is really good to see someone follow up with the results to their problems. Thank you. tymote
As for the fill tube, There is only so much room under the bed for the tank and the tube. The tube is placed as high up on the wall as the bed will allow and since the tank's top is almost as high you get the almost level fill tube. The water fill device will help, trust me.
If you open both the cold and hot water drains and pump the water out, you will end up draining the water heater also. Please make sure the electric water heater switch (in front of the kitchen sink) is in the off position. If you run the electric water heater without water in the tank, you will burn out the heating element faster than you can read this post. In my case I only drain the water at the end of the season or if I think I got some bad water in the tank from a campground. I live in the country and we have a well with an electric water pump. When the electricity goes out we don't have water for toilets, showers or cooking, so we rely on the PC as our backup. Therefore I like to keep the fresh water tank, gas tank (for the generator) and LPG tank at or near full and the gray tank at or near empty. I always dump the black tank before coming home and put just about two toilet bowls full of water in the bottom of the tank to keep it clean.
Again thanks for reporting back.
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Here is a picture I took at the factory of a 2350 under construction. You can see that the fresh water tank is almost as high as the bed frame and the filler tube is at the maximum high it can be and still stay under the bed frame. This is not poor workmanship as suggested in an earlier post, just the way it has to be if they wanted to put the tank under the bed and out of the way.
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Tom,
Thanks for your mention of the water heater being drained. We hadn't thought of that. We will make sure to run the hot water faucet, to fill the tank, before turning on the heater. We really appreciate that warning!
A possible solution during construction for the level water fill, would be to raise the bed a little higher to allow for a slant in the water fill tube. I guess the problem with that is allowing enough room, at the end of the bed, between the top of the mattress and the bottom of the cabinet that over hangs the bottom of the bed. I'm sure there is probably a reason why that can't be done.
I wanted to post the results of my service appointment. I do appreciate when others post how problems have been addressed and fixed. As new and first time owners, this forum has helped tremendously!
Roni
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If you run the electric water heater without water in the tank, you will burn out the heating element faster than you can read this post.
Actually the hot water heater still holds about 1/2 gallon of water after it is completely drained.
My water heater stopped working off 110v a couple years back. I first made sure the tank was drained. When I unscrewed the 110V heating element, the water kept coming and coming. Many towels were not enough. I called the water tank manufacture to order a new element. The fellow confirmed the tank permanently holds 1/2 gallon of water after it is completely drained, intentionally so to protect the heating element from accidental burn-out. I asked about concern of freezing and he said that was considered in the design of the tank.
If you need to replace your 110v heating element, stuff as many towels as you can under it, and all around on the floor, because once the element comes out, the wave of water comes and comes and comes. I thought I had plenty of absorbsion but underestimated. I ended up blowing a fan in that cabinet for a week to assure all was completely dry.
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Hi Ron,
I understand what the fellow told you about the water in the tank saving the element, but you having to replace your element after only a couple of years says something also. I only know that the shop at the dealer where I worked got in several heaters per year from those that ran the electric with the tank empty. They told me never to do that and I have never had to replace a heating element. I guess we got two different story to sort through. Maybe someone else can clear this up for us. pyho
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I did not mean to imply that it is fine to leave the "electric" hot water heater switch on all the time while plugged in. Only that if you forget to turn it off during setup, you do have an undefined "grace" period.
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My understanding is that you only have a few seconds before you burn out the heating element with an empty tank. This information came from a dealer when we bought our first travel trailer.
I always turn the water heater off at the circuit breaker before I drain the tank for the winter. Also, I always confirm the breaker label and mark it in red when I get a new RV.
Don't need a senior moment when I'm de-winterizing on the road.
Barry