Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Doneworking on October 25, 2022, 12:06:28 pm
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I read this a couple of days ago and it just confirms some of my personal observations visiting with new unit owners and going through new rigs at a few rv shows. We are a lucky lot, PC owners!
https://www.indystar.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2022/10/19/rv-horrors-defective-units-unhappy-buyers-a-near-death-experience/69523329007/
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Thor, god of thunder and crappy new RVs from Camping World.
It’s fair to assume they had the furnace or some other heat source running for the puppies because there’s snow in the picture. Can’t imagine what could cause a 12v dc electrical fire except maybe Li-ion batteries or a space heater running on an inverter? Lucky that didn’t burn down an entire campground or forest.
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I have seen posts and pictures of things PC has allowed out of the factory in the past couple of years that shows they are not immune to QC issues either.
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Thor, god of thunder and crappy new RVs from Camping World.
It’s fair to assume they had the furnace or some other heat source running for the puppies because there’s snow in the picture. Can’t imagine what could cause a 12v dc electrical fire except maybe Li-ion batteries or a space heater running on an inverter? Lucky that didn’t burn down an entire campground or forest.
I am not sure that's a fair assumption. You can't imagine a 12v fire? Connect the positive and negative cables of a car together and stand back. Or, just run the positive cable so it's rubbing or pinched against the frame.
There's also nothing I saw in the story about the puppies being in the 5th wheel.
I have had a severe electrical problem on a brand new Forest River Lexington. The wires in the transfer switch weren't properly attached and got hot. Luckily, the fire was contained within the metal box enclosing the transfer switch. No idea when that overheating occurred. The RV had been sitting on the dealer's lot for a year. Long story short, the neutral and the ground shorted together which caused campground GFI breakers to pop. When I got home, I did a lot of testing and finally opened up the box with the transfer switch. The problem was obvious, I replaced the transfer switch, re-did the wiring and never had a problem with it again.
It was poor workmanship by whoever did the original wiring. It could have easily started a fire, the wires ends were melted and the ground and neutral wires were melted together.
Poor workmanship does occur. It can cause severe problems.
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Poor workmanship is the downfall of the manufacturing world. I work for a large aircraft manufacturer and deal with it all the time. People man…people!
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It would be interesting to know how many units Phoenix Cruiser produces in total each year now compared to previous years.
Those of us that have older PCs recall no dealer networks and virtually every unit being custom built by workers who had been there a long time. And the guy that started the company was there every day to guide the whole effort. Small, controlled companies in the rv industry mostly don't exist fourteen years post 2008.
In going on ten years of ownership of our PC, our experience is simple: no problems other than minor self fixits. I just feel fortunate to own one of the older, well maintained and indoor stored rigs.
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I am surprised we don't see more of those horror stories because the RV industry is so sloppy, most especially during COVID when demand was so high.
Here is a 2021 Entegra Qwest. What a nice looking motorhome, right?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52458395249_85d074c8ee_z.jpg)
But look deeper. Here is its wiring and plumbing, all entangled together. Note the whole house water filter and on-board water pump. The pump is smacked up against the inverter. One minor water leak with a fine mist spray from the plumbing here, and the rig is toast.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52458488590_3634c2d97d_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52458304974_2fd5230121_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52458568563_01abfaf56d_z.jpg)
Here are fresh water lines in red, blue, and green, plumbed outside under the motorhome out in the cold where they will freeze.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52457516922_465ae53040_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52457516877_ed1055006d_z.jpg)
YES!!! the Phoenix Cruiser is one of the best ever made motorhomes. Design and workmanship only gets worse from what we have.
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I am surprised we don't see more of those horror stories because the RV industry is so sloppy, most especially during COVID when demand was so high.
Here is a 2021 Entegra Qwest. What a nice looking motorhome, right?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52458395249_85d074c8ee_z.jpg)
But look deeper. Here is its wiring and plumbing, all entangled together. Note the whole house water filter and on-board water pump. The pump is smacked up against the inverter. One minor water leak with a fine mist spray from the plumbing here, and the rig is toast.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52458488590_3634c2d97d_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52458304974_2fd5230121_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52458568563_01abfaf56d_z.jpg)
Here are fresh water lines in red, blue, and green, plumbed outside under the motorhome out in the cold where they will freeze.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52457516922_465ae53040_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52457516877_ed1055006d_z.jpg)
YES!!! the Phoenix Cruiser is one of the best ever made motorhomes. Design and workmanship only gets worse from what we have.
I would be horrified to see that if I was an owner of a company that produced a product such as that. WOW. I have a 2012 PC and have dug into the right spaces like shown and it’s pretty good. I think the quality of PC’s is very good.
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I would be horrified to see that if I was an owner of a company that produced a product such as that. WOW. I have a 2012 PC and have dug into the right spaces like shown and it’s pretty good. I think the quality of PC’s is very good.
I am right there with you. Phoenix does a very good job.
Many here have seen THIS SLIDE SHOW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Mfp-jZIR0) on the making of a Phoenix Cruiser, made for the 2007 model year, then updated for 2008 and maybe a year or two following. It covers much on PC construction which does not resemble the practices on a 2021 Entegra Qwest. At least my 2007 PC-2350 does not.
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I would be horrified to see that if I was an owner of a company that produced a product such as that. WOW. I have a 2012 PC and have dug into the right spaces like shown and it’s pretty good. I think the quality of PC’s is very good.
I am right there with you. Phoenix does a very good job.
Many here have seen THIS SLIDE SHOW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Mfp-jZIR0) on the making of a Phoenix Cruiser, made for the 2007 model year, then updated for 2008 and maybe a year or two following. It covers much on PC construction which does not resemble the practices on a 2021 Entegra Qwest. At least my 2007 PC-2350 does not.
Oh I have watched that before. Yes, very good stuff.
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The typical RV is definitely not NASA quality.
I have friends who worked at JPL building the Cassini-Huygens Saturn space probe. It had l22,000 wire connections and more than 7.5 miles of cabling linking its instruments, computers and mechanical devices. Every wire was the same color - white.
No one got fired from JPL for being late or taking a day off, but it was understood that they would be terminated for poor workmanship if the inspectors found a problem. Can’t risk heaters blowing fuses 4.9 billion miles from Pasadena.
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The typical RV is definitely not NASA quality.
Nothing but "NASA" is made of NASA quality. Military is a close second. I would assume privatized space travel (rockets and such) is in there somewhere.
Considering everything, I am impressed with the quality of a typical automobile including the Ford E-Series chassis. Unfortunately, only a rare few RV manufactures try to mimic a little of those practices, Phoenix being one of them. Considering such low production numbers, automation has no place at Phoenix. So it becones a carpenter's project with a plumber and electrician getting involved.
We had our house built for us in 1988. Being that they were building the house on property we already owned, I had full rein to inspect everything as it was being constructed. I was there every morning and evening before dark. Being the archetect, I wanted the crew to rely on my presence once a day in the A.M. to discuss any issues or concerns. In the evenings, I would do general inspections, certainly was never a critic, especially over frivilous things. I cleaned the work site on the weekends, did the painting, the staining and finishing of the wood-work, coax & phone wiring, duct-taped the exterior sheething foil backing seams and used expandable foam-insulation around all windows and doors. So at times there was some timing of effort involved.
One thing I learned about home construction....they are surely not building furniture. When it comes to the basics, the workmanship of a Phoenix Cruiser and a house is not so different. The main difference is that the house remains put, but all motorhomes live on a fault line that is extremely unstable on a regular basis. The plumbing of a PC is exceptional, just like a house. Regarding wiring, we use conduit in these parts for home construction so there is no comparison.
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The typical RV is definitely not NASA quality.
I have friends who worked at JPL building the Cassini-Huygens Saturn space probe. It had l22,000 wire connections and more than 7.5 miles of cabling linking its instruments, computers and mechanical devices. Every wire was the same color - white.
No one got fired from JPL for being late or taking a day off, but it was understood that they would be terminated for poor workmanship if the inspectors found a problem. Can’t risk heaters blowing fuses 4.9 billion miles from Pasadena.
Right? Wow, all white. Now that is taxing on the brain.
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Every wire was the same color - white.
Right? Wow, all white. Now that is taxing on the brain.
I was thinking the same thing. I wonder why all the wires would be the same color, white? Does white insulation on wires hold up better than other colors?
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A Houstonian here and I have NASA employee neighbors. I could ask them.
But, I suspect it is due to something like what is certified and approved for use in near zero gravity, and possibly low-or-no pressure environments. The coloring in the wire insulation may not be allowed due to off-gassing. I work in the IT industry and was part of a project where hardware was going on the shuttles. Every piece in that hardware has to be tested for what it might add/expose to the air, crew and surfaces of the shuttles. Think about that "new car smell"... You can't air out the space station to get rid of that smell, so it can't be allowed to exist to begin with.
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I worked in the plastic colorant industry for some years. The 'White" is titanium dioxide aka TiO2. It is a very safe compound and is also used to color food products, and cosmetics including the white in your toothpaste. Some we have all had it out mouths if we brush our teeth or use creamers. It is also very UV stable.
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Thanks for the education behind the use of white wiring in space. That is very interesting.
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I would have to agree with that statement. We just got rid of our 2021 Thor Compass. We called it the pandemic coach. Ford did a great job on the Transit HD350 AWD chasis. Loved the way it drove. Thats were my compliments stop.. Everything after that was horrible workmanship. Many missing parts and improperly installed items and incomplete finishing is endless. A rear wheel well improperly installed. Opened a drawer and you would get whatever weather that was outside right in your face!Tank gauges put on the wrong tanks. A/C and heaters that wouldn't shut off no matter what the temperature. Thor's quality control was non existing the day this coach was built. At Camping World for months and then not fixed properly. And I wouldn't take any of
my rv's to Camping World. They are incompetent beyond all reasoning.
We traded our 'pandemic coach' for a 2022 Phoneix 2351D. So far one trip and put 800+ miles on her. We couldn't be more happy with the coach. The build quality of it is fantastic. Had a couple questions along the way and reached out to Phoneix. They were spectacular,! After dealing with Thor customer service, (yes you to death and do nothing.) I will never buy anything Thor or would I recommend them to anyone. Not even to people I don't like. We love our 2351D !
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Welcome to the world of 2351D.
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It is interesting to me just how much pain and suffering some folks will accept as ordinary when it comes to owning a RV. Looking at the latest RIVA sales numbers and the big declines in production and sales, you gotta wonder if a lot of people that bought a rig as the answer to Covid will stick with ownership.
After a few uses, lots of excuses and the typical dealer abuses, I wonder if we won't see a bunch just take the hit and get out of rving. Some of course, will have discovered a great way to travel and a great hobby pursuit.
All I know is after almost ten years of ownership of our PC, we are still happy campers. I don't mind fixing a few things as time passes, but when I go to rv shows and look at a lot of units I see a lot of brands that anything more than casual inspection should give a buyer pause.
Paul
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Back in 2015, when we bought our PC, Phoenix only made 100 a year. Now that the Coopers own PC, I know they waned to increase production which is at least part of the reason they moved the factory, "next door."
I don't know how much they have increased production, just for discussion, let's say 4 times as many... 400/year.
My *GUESS* is that Thor or Forest River would want 10 times that... At least 4,000 units/year before they would think about buying them out.
Again, pure speculation on my part.
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2023 earnings estimates for THO look about as poor as their build quality. The well deserved Pandemic Coach stigma will only make matters worse.
Unfortunately all the junk produced in 2020-21 will continue to clog up RV service shops for years to come.
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Happy New Year Everyone!
This is a great conversation! A couple quick thoughts to add to the conversation... thank you all for your continued support of the product. Thank you for your understanding of a production process that is dependent on every employee having a perfect day every day to insure a perfect product. That is absolutely the goal, but we sometimes fall short. Standing behind the product when we do fall short is a commitment that we have made.
While we would like to increase production, we continue to produce less than 100 per year. Controlled growth is our goal. To aid in the future growth, we have internalized some processes that were previously outsourced, and planning for some others, which will help us increase the control of quality on those items. This will lay the ground work for increasing production when the time is right.
We have increased our engineering team and hope to introduce some product changes that we have been working on this past year. These changes are born out of listening to the feedback about the product over the last few years.
Additionally, we are also planning on increasing our service schedule offering. Our service techs take a lot of pride in their work! They enjoy doing the annual maintenance, repairs or even renovating of older PCs. Since we typically book far out, we recognize the need for more capacity.
This give you a little insight as to what we are working on in 2023!
We hope that you enjoy your travels!!
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Thank you for the factory update!
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This type of communication is part of the reason I am happy to own a PC.
Thanks!
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I hope the PC Forum Team factory folks read all the posts on this forum all the time. If they do and if they make a list of continuing problems of a specific nature they would be half way home (or at lease start on the way home) to further perfecting the PC product.
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Answer to an earlier comment - Phoenix still builds under 100 a year. Tina Cooper, PC USA Co-owner posted recently on another string about it. They moved to the bigger building and plan to expand production at some point when the time is right.
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We love our 2552! We are the third owners and luckily the previous owners took care of the rig and it only had 22,000 miles on it. We have had a few rv’s during the past years. We started with a small class C , went to a class A, then a fifth wheel and then a small travel trailer. We decided that a class C would be the best choice for us since we retired and want to do more traveling. We were looking a purchasing a Coach House but after visiting the factory and being told that there was a two year wait we decided to look elsewhere. To be honest we had never heard of Phoenix Cruiser but I happened to see one in someone’s driveway so I decided to start researching them. I am so glad that I saw that PC! We have only had it for close to one year but are extremely happy with it. I have called the factory twice, once to get a catch clip for the screen door and another time for paint codes. It is such a joy to be able to call someone at the factory directly and get an answer. No going through any dealers (cheer) . PC is well built and a quality rig. If we ever decide to buy another RV it will definitely be a Phoenix Cruiser. Thankfully someone is still producing a quality RV !!!
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Another indication of the popularity Phoenix Cruiser enjoys is demonstrated by the attention they receive on the Used Market. I recently sold mine. Within the first day of the Ad appearing, I had nine people clamoring to buy.
The market is distorted. The actual number available for sale and the number of PC's currently listed differs by the plethora of archival listings that weren't removed years ago when the vehicles were actually sold. I think some are deliberately left as klikbait to generate enthusiasm and attract raffic. "Bait and Switch" remains