Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: 2 Frazzled on January 28, 2022, 03:28:44 pm
-
We're hoping someone has a clue on this. We normally don't travel at night so we don't know how long we've had this problem. However, earlier this week we did have to travel at night and a trucker went by honking at us and flashing his lights. When we got off the road we checked our lights and realized we have no running lights on the RV or the toad. John checked the fuse and found the 15 amp fuse for the running lights was blown. We purchased matching fuses and when John put a new one in, it immediately blew. He said there is no sign of corrosion in the fuse box so we don't think it is water intrusion.
Any thoughts?
-
Actually the manual says "park lamps, license plate lamps" in case this makes a difference. Bottom line, we are running dark in the back and will only drive daylight until resolved.
-
Unplug the car and try again. This will at least tell you whether it’s a coach issue or a toad issue
-
The car has been unplugged for a few days while we've been in camp. The second fuse blew as soon as John plugged it in.
-
Hi Holly,
This is worth a try.
Look in your Ford chassis owners manual under fuses and relays. I can't say for sure, but there may be a tail-light supporting relay located inside the fuse box under the hood. If there is, try this "only as an experiment" with the engine turned off.
Identify another "identical" relay used in a different non-essential assignment, HVAC for example. Remove it and install it in the tail light position and see if the fuse burns again. If the fuse does not burn up and the lights work, then you have a bad supporting relay. If the fuse burns up again, then you ruled-out the relay as the culprit.
Then revert everything back to "normal" all relays in their original positions and check to make sure your HVAC is working.
If you need a new relay, you can buy one from any auto parts store.
Usually when a relay goes bad, the circuit gets broken just like a fuse. But once in a great while, certain types of relays will short in such a way that it creates the fuse-burning condition you are experiencing.
-
Please explain exactly which “running lights” are we asking about. Do brake lights work? Turn signals? Happened once to me, water got in reflector housing and shorted out lights. Take a flashlight and hold up to lens and see if any water intrusion. A seal was loose and I guess it was condensation build up.
-
And if the above does not yield results, I would start looking at the phoenix cruiser installed trailer plug and wiring. Versus the OEM Ford wiring
-
I like Tarnold's idea of inspecting for water inside one of the lights.
Will makes a good point too. I understand the extended trailer wiring on the motorhome is Ford-supplied, a connector on one end plugs into the chassis harness. That should be extremely reliable. The other end has pig-tails (wire ends) to connect at the trailer receptacle. The Achilles Heel would be right at the trailer receptacle. On our 2007 PC, that receptacle is wire-tied to the square bar of the hitch. (see picture) To inspect, remove the 4 screws at the connector, then slide the housing to the left to expose the connections. Maybe the tail-light hot wire came loose and is touching a ground wire.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1890/44096697452_2ebe8c8d8a_z.jpg)
-
Our outside inspections are on hold for a day or so. It's 27° at the far Eastern Florida/Georgia line.
Brake lights and turn signals work. Headlights work.
I call the problem ones running lights but the manual calls them parking lamps. It's the lights you see as you tail a car or rig at night that has its headlights on. If we aren't braking or using turn signals, we are totally dark at the back. Rig and toad.
We should warm up later today or tomorrow and I'll check all the suggested items then.
-
Good luck, there are a lot of Phoenix cruiser installed lights connected to that circuit. Good thing we didn’t head to Florida to stay warm.
-
Holly,
There is no assurance your 2013 E450 chassis and our 2007 E350 chassis are identical with regards to relays, but I looked in my 2007 owners manual. Relay "D" is one of 4 smaller relays. It is dedicated to Trailer Running Lamps. To determine if the supporting relay is your problem, place relay "B" (the Horn Relay) into position "D", then replace that fuse again.
Look in your owners manual to relate to what I am describing. It is a simple test. The worst that could happen is that relay "B" got damaged during the test, so you would then not have a working horn.
You could also test the original relay "D" by placing it into position "B" and see if the horn works. Understand that you might have to replace the supporting horn fuse if in-fact that relay is your problem.
-
We purchased matching fuses and when John put a new one in, it immediately blew.
Any thoughts?
IF that happened with the headlight switch in the off position there’s probably a short in the headlight switch. Here’s the replacement procedure. The cover plate under the steering wheel is easy to unsnap. The trickiest part was prying loose the corner of the dashboard trim piece after removing the knob and plastic nut. I replaced mine when the dimmer for the dash lights failed. It’s about a 30 minute job and you can find the switch at Autozone or Oreilly.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SK10M_9i8JQ
-
IF that happened with the headlight switch in the off position there’s probably a short in the headlight switch.
Oh my! That is "excellent" input.
-
The car has been unplugged for a few days while we've been in camp. The second fuse blew as soon as John plugged it in.
Which would tell me the Toad is causing the overload. Which means check the wiring in the Toad from the plug in connector where you attach the wiring from the PC to the Toad (and the cable attaching the PC and the Toad). Make sure all the wires are clean and properly screwed down or soldered. Anything that was done to the toad when it was wired to plug into the PC.
-
Holly,
Has John had a chance yet to dig deeper into this?
-
I did a little bit. We found some wires under the rig below the driver's door that are totally hanging free. The problem is that there are three of them and no obvious place they should be attached or if all three go together.
I also found a slight rubbing cut on the wiring bundle where it passes from under the chassis out to the mounted tow assembly (where you plug in the cable for the toad). The cut is just through the plastic sheath and exposed the edge of one wire but didn't cut it so John wrapped that in electrical tape and I wrapped the giant threaded chassis bolt with duct tape so it didn't chew it again.
I haven't convinced John to let me pull apart anything in the steering column or engine compartment... Yet.
-
Your findings has me thinking I should inspect my wiring harness, especially in those same areas.
-
Today was troubleshooting day. We went through all the steps that we had done before so I could journal it and at the end of all of our testing... the lights work. We changed nothing, we cleaned nothing, we fixed nothing. I personally suspect there may be corrosion on the back of the fuse box but we are not fix-it people so we will not be pulling that. Hopefully our light situation will hold until we take the the rig to the factory this spring/summer. I intend to ask them to pull that fuse box and inspect the wiring on the back.
Possibly related question - where does the water drain to when you have condensation on the front window of the truck?
I had this issue with a Volkswagen Rabbit back when I was in the Army. There was a recall for the antenna seal. Water got past the seal, ran down the wire and got into the fuse box. I lost all my electricals one by one rolling down the highway in a storm. First the radio, then the headlights, then the windshield wipers. They fixed it four times with the final time resulting in a replacement of the fuse box itself due to the corrosion from previous water incursion.
Thank you all for your suggestions. I'll definitely be watching those lights. If we blink out again before we get to the factory, we'll be back to troubleshooting mode.
-
I did a little bit. We found some wires under the rig below the driver's door that are totally hanging free. The problem is that there are three of them and no obvious place they should be attached or if all three go together.
I also found a slight rubbing cut on the wiring bundle where it passes from under the chassis out to the mounted tow assembly (where you plug in the cable for the toad). The cut is just through the plastic sheath and exposed the edge of one wire but didn't cut it so John wrapped that in electrical tape and I wrapped the giant threaded chassis bolt with duct tape so it didn't chew it again.
I haven't convinced John to let me pull apart anything in the steering column or engine compartment... Yet.
Those wires by the door are likely for the step light in the doorway. At least that's what's on my 2015 model.
-
Step light sounds logical. We seldom drive at night so we wouldn't notice it is out. Since I don't know if all three wires bundle together I'll add it to the PC Factory repair list. Thanks for the diagnosis
-
Those wires by the door are likely for the step light in the doorway. At least that's what's on my 2015 model.
DING DING! (cheer) (cheer) (cheer) We have a winner. The three wires were indeed the ones that supplied the step light with ground and power. A piece of road debris ripped the wires apart. One of the wires stayed in the light housing, making three visible. Supply wires are undamaged and tested OK. Socket is destroyed. Zip-tied the supply wires safely out of harm until the permanent repair is done.
The running/parking light fuse issue is hopefully solved. The tag (license plate) light was observed to be not working. Took the light out, then separated the bulb holder from the lens. When removing the bulb from the holder, I observed something fall out of the socket. The insulating piece that keeps the 'hot' center wire separate from the grounded areas of the socket had broken into pieces. This allowed the center tab to contact the spring and other grounded areas. I strongly suspect that was the source of the short in the system. The bulb tested good. The 'hot' wire was wrapped with insulating tape, and the light assembly re-installed with no bulb until a permanent repair is done. With a toad behind, and no night driving, the lack of a tag light should not be an issue.
-
Thank you Volkeman for being awesome and bailing us out (twice). It's amazing what someone with the right knowledge, skills, and sharp, problem-solving mind can do. John and I were, once again, clueless and looked at all the different parts, analyzed what we knew, couldn't put the pieces together and came up with the diagnosis... It's broke, we'll have to live with it.
Volkeman looked at the different pieces, it all fell into place in his mind, he tested a few wires and figured it all out in less time than it takes for us to dig out our manuals.
We bow down to the amazing fix-it guy mind! You rock!
-
You da man Volkemon!
-
So what has been concluded?
Is "the following" the recommended trouble-shooting procedure for 2 Frazzled and others with the same problem?
Check every light fixture that should be lit in that lighting circuit. Check to make sure the internal connections (and wiring to) each fixture are in good order. One fixture might have failed or otherwise come apart internally, causing an intermittent power-to-ground short.
Start with the lowest, most vulnerable light fixtures susceptible to damage or corrosion when the rig is driven, for example the running board lights and wiring to them.
Once every light fixture in that circuit has been inspected with suspected fixtures repaired or replaced, if the failure persists, then inspect the connection-side of the fuse panel.
-
So what has been concluded?
In any type of troubleshooting, your most valuable tool is logic. Your second most valuable tool is observation coupled with a general (if not specific) understanding of the system that you're trying to analyze. In this instance Volkeman used both.
For example, in this type electrical/wiring problem, logic should tell you that the most reliable part of the system should be the Ford engineered and factory installed wiring--you wouldn't immediately start tearing into the factory wiring looms to search for this problem. Sure, they can fail, but the fault is much more likely to be where something was added, modified, damaged, or at an interface point. Secondly, you look for indicators. With step light, the wires hanging free are an obvious target; they probably didn't just "fall out of the loom". Don pointed to a likely culprit given the location. Volkeman confirmed the situation with an inspection--and rendered things safe by securing the wires until the light fixture can be replaced.
Another "indicator" led him to the probable cause for blowing fuses. If the tag light had not been out, Volk very likely would not have had reason to pull and examine that light--and locate the faulty socket. Again, the problem could have just been a bad bulb--with no payoff on the fuse issue. But the fact that he followed up on an "indicator" (one light being out when others were working), paid off in spades this time when he discovered not only the reason for the dead tag light but most likely the reason for an intermittent and elusive fuse-blowing problem.
Hats off to Volkeman for demonstrating some key troubleshooting techniques!
-
Mike H stated it so well. Thanks. :)(: