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Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jeffreyiam on November 16, 2021, 10:55:14 am

Title: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Jeffreyiam on November 16, 2021, 10:55:14 am: Has anyone done a toilet upgrade as there is limited space. Appreciate brand and model suggestions.

Thank you
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Bangorbob on November 20, 2021, 10:31:22 am: I'm surprised there is no response. 15 yr old toilets haven't broken yet? I know this doesn't help much, but I will probably be replacing mine this winter. Mine sits on a pedestal in the 06 2350, so I can't use a foot pedal type flusher. Will be watching this thread.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Doneworking on November 20, 2021, 12:11:59 pm: I have never replaced a toilet in any of my rigs over the years but it is not a complex job and I just put "rv toilet" in Amazon search and came up with several to choose. It looks like this one might be close to the one in my 2013 2350 PC. I checked and youtube has some vids of the process, but it is pretty intuitive. I have no knowledge to pass on but this link may be helpful. I would think it would just be a matter of size (listed on all the Amazon offerings) and color.

https://www.amazon.com/Aqua-Magic-Toilet-Flush-Sprayer-Profile/dp/B003DJL0MC/ref=sr_1_10?keywords=rv%2Btoilet&qid=1637427955&qsid=143-8316635-6500313&sr=8-10&sres=B000VBGZEI%2CB000BGM8D0%2CB00DPIVZGC%2CB00HQEKGB6%2CB072QZMZZP%2CB003DJL0MC%2CB007TQJTFK%2CB000BGM8DA%2CB073WYHBHX%2CB000B5P9EQ%2CB072N3RCCJ%2CB000B5SA2Y%2CB00HR2OMRQ%2CB000BGOJCS%2CB076P32HJF%2CB008X5T1CC%2CB004RCSLAS%2CB000BGK2U6%2CB000BGK2V0%2CB004SFKJIQ&srpt=TOILET&th=1
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: donc13 on November 20, 2021, 06:07:44 pm: Whatever you get, make sure the bowl is porcelain, not plastic or fiberglass. Porcelain stays bright and easy to clean over the years, the others do not!
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: CalCruiser on November 20, 2021, 07:34:49 pm: Try browsing Camping World for a decent range of models and specs. They usually do free shipping on black Friday / cyber Monday. Or if you can, drive to a super center location. It’s the ToysRus for rv’ers.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: LRUCH on November 21, 2021, 12:02:51 am: I am considering a replacement toilet as well. I rebuilt my 10yr old thetford this past spring and it was not difficult. BUT I learned that it is basically an inner and outer shell and nothing but the seat holding them together. There is no pipe the last 2 inches before the floor. If the toilet is flushed when you're not level, or traveling on a bumpy road there's a chance that not everything goes to the black tank... When I removed the toilet from the floor there was lot of evidence.

From what I can tell of the specs of other thetfords is that are all basically designed the same. I will not be buying a thetford!
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: donc13 on November 21, 2021, 08:08:55 am: Quote from: LRUCH on November 21, 2021, 12:02:51 am
I am considering a replacement toilet as well. I rebuilt my 10yr old thetford this past spring and it was not difficult. BUT I learned that it is basically an inner and outer shell and nothing but the seat holding them together. There is no pipe the last 2 inches before the floor. If the toilet is flushed when you're not level, or traveling on a bumpy road there's a chance that not everything goes to the black tank... When I removed the toilet from the floor there was lot of evidence.

From what I can tell of the specs of other thetfords is that are all basically designed the same. I will not be buying a thetford!

LRUCH,

That sounds like someone installed the toilet improperly. There is supposed to be a closet flange and seal on the bottom that seals the bottom of the drain tube to the floor and top of the waste tank. Much like the wax seal in a household toilet.

Having a 2" open space between the top of the waste tank and drain tube (down tube) would be against every "building" (RVIA) code. Having that gap would also allow any tank odors to escape into the interior of the coach uninhibited.

Thetford would be out of business real quickly if they designed their toilets that way.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: LRUCH on November 21, 2021, 10:26:11 pm: You would think so, but check the specs. I compared the online parlay to my toilet and no parts are missing.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: donc13 on November 21, 2021, 11:13:26 pm: I didn't say parts are missing, I said it wasn't put in right.

https://www.thetford.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/42088E_Perm-OM.pdf

That link shows every one has a flange seal that fits onto the flush pipi (down tube) to seal that pipe to the waste tank and make an odor seal stopping gased coming up from leaking into the bathroom. The other end of the seal is the water in the top of the flush valve area. If the flush valve opened into just air, now there is nothing keeping gasses from flowing out that 2" open area and out into the room air. RVIA does not permit that. From the flush valve to the waste tank must be closed by the flange seal at the bottom and flush ball seal at the top.

Thetford does not leave that area open.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Volkemon on November 22, 2021, 12:11:56 pm: Quote from: LRUCH on November 21, 2021, 12:02:51 am
I am considering a replacement toilet as well. I rebuilt my 10yr old thetford this past spring and it was not difficult. BUT I learned that it is basically an inner and outer shell and nothing but the seat holding them together. There is no pipe the last 2 inches before the floor. If the toilet is flushed when you're not level, or traveling on a bumpy road there's a chance that not everything goes to the black tank... When I removed the toilet from the floor there was lot of evidence.

We are suffering from lots of black tank odors when underway, or sometimes parked when wind is 'just right'. When underway, if you have the Ac on 'Normal' to pressurize the cabin space, no odor. On recirculate, or 'AC Max' , you get some odors wafting up front. Ride with the windows down, and black tank unclean, better have a strong stomach. :help Has been a condition since we had the camper. I do multiple flushes every time I flush the tanks. Doing this, there is no odor underway. So I know its not an issue of uncontained black tank contents creating the odor.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51696930602_9b05330f95_o.jpg)

I tried to get a picture of 'the gap' I suspect LRUCH is talking about. This is a picture of our toilet, with the flush valve open. You can see between the base of the flush valve, and the black pipe on the floor, there is a ~2" gap. I didn't want to go in there with a tape measure to get an exact distance. :-[ You can see in the area between the flush valve and the black pipe the remains of past eliminations.

Looking at the parts diagram (Thanks Donc13!) I do see part #7, the flange seal and bolts. These seal between the white(ish...) plastic toilet base and the black flange in the camper. On mine the flange seal is sealing well. For evidence of this, here is a pic from when I repaired the pedestal.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51012232041_cb7bb0a9c3_o.jpg)

It shows the flange seal area (Upper left, out of focus) and it was nice and clean. No corrosion on bolts, and the area around the flange has no discoloration. There IS water evidence in the center picture area on the floor, but I am 99% certain thats from the shower door before I replaced it.

A better shot of where the toilet mounts shows little signs of leaks, slight rust on one of the mounting screws.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51011518548_d1e732b234_o.jpg)

LRUCH - Was this area discolored/soiled , or showing signs of leaks there on yours? Does the first picture I posted (showing the area below the flush valve) show the ' no pipe the last 2 inches before the floor' that you are speaking of?

I filled our black water tank, using a hose in the commode, until the water level was above the flush valve. Letting it set, I was hoping to expose any leaks or separations in the bigger black pipe that leads to the black water tank, and explain some of the black tank odor problems we have.

Nothing seen. No drips anywhere, and the water level stayed the same for ~15 min until I dumped it. I was at our local dump station, so not in a position to leave it full for hours like I wanted. But if there was a break/gap/space in the pipe between the flange and the tank (as I was looking for) it would have revealed itself by dripping water.

We have a 3/4 full black tank now, and it REEKS in the camper. Mrs V is most distressed. I must solve this.

I agree with the construction details of the toilet as described by LRUCH. I am wondering if maybe somewhere the seal between the halves has failed, allowing the stinky airflow from the area shown in my first picture. If the crack was above the flush valve level, my water test would not have revealed it.

I am hoping that it is not the vent pipe. ASSUMING it is one piece to the roof, I have a good seal up top to the roof, and a new weather cap on it. Having the ceiling fan vents open or closed does NOT make a difference in the smell, so I know its not drifting out the tank vent and into the ceiling fans.

I am now exploring taking the toilet out, and sealing the flange for testing purposes. If the smell goes away, I am led towards thinking there is a failure in the toilets seal to the cabin. Not the flange, but in the toilet assembly itself.

I have to see what size the pipe is after removing the commode, but these available in 3" and 4" at my local Lowes. And under $10.

(https://mobileimages.lowes.com/productimages/cebb72ca-b307-4cc1-ab80-3b182380011a/00814802.jpg)

Should make an air tight seal, and HOPEFULLY isolate the toilet as the source for the odors. Will post with results.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: CalCruiser on November 22, 2021, 04:17:48 pm: Driving generates heat which can cause holding tank odors when underway. Try treating the tank with a liquid sanitizer & deodorizer, then repeat and add a gallon of water each time after dumping the tank. I always do that pro-actively when traveling in the desert. Be wary of drop-in packet type sanitizers that can get caught in the dump valve.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Volkemon on November 22, 2021, 04:28:36 pm: Quote from: CalCruiser on November 22, 2021, 03:56:58 pm
Driving generates heat which can cause holding tank odors when underway.

True, but I dont think that was the root cause in my instance. Parked, and with roof vents closed, a wind from the rear would cause the smell inside. We have a frequent sea breeze from the east, and when the camper was parked nose west it was terrible inside.

The fresh air intake for the HVAC system is the only outside air entry point I could find in the coach. (Microwave vent closed, roof vents closed, and ignoring minor leaks) When parked nose downwind, it creates a low pressure in the coach.

I took out the toilet, and sure enough it is a two piece shell.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51698953639_40fa2911cd_o.jpg) in this bottom view, you can see the underside of the flush valve seen in the bowl. I rinsed out the interior, it was a Valhalla for maggots. :beg Not much smell however, I did 'take one for science' and did a sniff check to eliminate that as a source of odors. The seal on the bottom looked to be sealing well. The moisture on it is from me hosing out the inside pre-photo.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51699165755_477f3c390a_o.jpg)

The plug worked perfectly. Sealed well, and wont pull out. So I closed up the camper, put the bath fan on hi speed , exhaust. Went to the front, and felt a good strong flow out of the defroster vent. 2o2 Before doing this, the smell would be in the bathroom, but not the coach. No smell anywhere after a short test, it is running still as I type.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51698954034_f7929ec35d_o.jpg)

I turned the toilet upside down on the recycle bin, and filled the inside with water. This was the leak. The brown streaks on the white shaft are grease. (nod) Whew.

Only leak I found, but I did NOT fill it to the brim. I would think that the area inside should be air/water tight and there is an O-ring gone, or similar. If plugging the flange stops all odors then i will be 99.99% sure its the toilet itself.

Next up is to go do another sniff test after having the fan run for a while. Maybe tomorrow go for a drive, and dump the tanks about 15 miles away. Usually, the drive to the dump station is fragrant, unless AC is on Normal, and 2nd fan speed or greater. NO windows open. I will try breaking all those conditions on my way there, and hope for a stench free ride. :-D
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: donc13 on November 22, 2021, 05:12:56 pm: Volkemon,

Does the water in the toilet (after flushing) slowly drain out? That's a good indication the flush valve seal needs replaced. My last RV (a Lexington) started stinking and the flush valve water would slowly leak out. Thinking that was the problem, I tested my theory by putting a klennex over the valve and getting it wet (to seal the valve.. Sorta), anyway... No odor as long as the tissue was wet.

I replaced both the flush ball and seal... End of odor problems.

Don
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Volkemon on November 22, 2021, 08:40:40 pm: Quote from: donc13 on November 22, 2021, 05:12:56 pm
Volkemon,

Does the water in the toilet (after flushing) slowly drain out? That's a good indication the flush valve seal needs replaced. My last RV (a Lexington) started stinking and the flush valve water would slowly leak out. Thinking that was the problem, I tested my theory by putting a klennex over the valve and getting it wet (to seal the valve.. Sorta), anyway... No odor as long as the tissue was wet.

I replaced both the flush ball and seal... End of odor problems.

Don

No problem there, it holds water for as long as we go between uses. Just went out and locked up the camper, it smells So nice inside. I am cautiously optimistic that tomorrows 'dump run' will be odor free.

As BangorBob said earlier, ""I'm surprised there is no response. 15 yr old toilets haven't broken yet?"" well, here we go. RV toilet shopping! :)(:
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: LRUCH on November 22, 2021, 09:49:48 pm: VOLKEMON, yes your findings match mine. I was under a time crunch to rebuild my toilet so I didn't take the time to document it like you. Good job.

I too had the smells and insects... For me it was tiny flies or gnats. I also had an occasionally water spot on the floor at the base of the thetford. After taking the toilet and turning it upside down in the back yard, I found it full of gnats, maggots and other critters. I sterilized/scrubbed it all (toilet and floor) with bleach and bath room cleaners. I replaced the floor seal and the flush seal and reinstalled the toilet. The base of the toilet has now a silicon seal and the back of the toilet is closed up now. That hole is where the smells and insects were coming from.

I've sealed it up enough to keep the smell out of the RV, but I know it is still not perfect and no more gnat's either. Once the supply chain is caught up and I have time to find the right replacement I'll toss the thetford (happily).
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Volkemon on November 22, 2021, 10:23:12 pm: OK, so we have a favorite choice. the ""Aqua-Magic® Style II Reliable Entry-Level Ceramic RV Toilet""

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71tyyN+5JML._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

Ceramic bowl is a plus. 2o2

~30 pounds is ~22 pounds (!) heavier than our current Aqua Magic Style V is a negative. :'(

EDIT - Camping world ad says ""The low profile model only 25 lbs."" but UNIT weight 35.2 pounds... (as shipped?) ( I got the other weight from Amazon..I think...)

AND...it has a full size seat. Missed that earlier. Now to re-fit the old commode and see how much clearance to the cabinet I can use up... another limiting factor..

Main 'sticking' point is the centerline distance from the flange to the back wall. the Model V needs 7 5/8". The Model II needs 9 1/2 inches.

Measuring the flange centerline distance to the wall in our camper I get.....9 1/2 inches. pyho Kinda close to the limit...

and *nowhere* so far have I found a picture of the water hookup on the lowpro model.

There is a Camping World store ~30 miles north of us, says they have the Model II in stock. https://www.campingworld.com/aqua-magic-style-ii-low-profile-white-14-35652.html

May have to go up and check out the water hookup, and see if it is even feasible. The seat area looks to be about the same. Extra bowl depth would be MOST welcome for my comfort.

I am willing to 'clearance' the wall to accommodate the water hookup, if the bowl has a more favorable design.

Mrs V said she is willing to do a 'high steppin' :lol motion to use the pedal flush. She just went down to 'try' it figuring the pedal is ~6 inches above the pedestal height.
I have thought of a few 'hand conversion' ideas that will allow one to stand upright and work the flush by hand, should the pedal be too high.

Another one of interest is the dometic 321. FULL SIZE SEAT! (cheer) 37 pounds.....whoa... adding around 29 pounds of toilet. But the full size seat... the install instructions are incomplete https://www.dometic.com/assets/87/98/600346504_78798.pdf , page 5 , but LOOKS like it needs 10 or 11 inches from the back wall for the 32x series.....rats. BUT..the 300 series has a full size seat, no porcelain but only ~8 pounds.

https://www.amazon.com/Dometic-300-Profile-Toilet-Bone/dp/B00HR2OE4M

See what tomorrow brings. Both the dometic 321 low pro white ($275) and the thetford model II ($199) are in stock at CW. That 300 series is looking like a contender, however.

@ LRUCH - Just read your post, indeed we have the gnats also. What hole did you seal? I found the only 'leak' to be that valve. We are in a bit of a time crunch to, with Thanksgiving travel coming soon. Might have to put in the old toilet back in for he weekend.

I can get pics of the back of my toilet if it helps you describe your fix.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Volkemon on November 23, 2021, 12:07:35 pm: (cheer) (cheer) (cheer) SUCCESS!!! (cheer) (cheer) (cheer)

NOT ONE WHIFF of black tank odor, and it was full. I am so happy about it. FIRST time in our ownership the faint black tank odor has not been a constant companion. I drove with the windows open for 25+ miles. HVAC off. 2o2 That Thetford V is HISTORY.

Might attempt to fill it up to positively diagnose all the possible 'leak points' beyond the one I found, but time will dictate that. I am just So tickled the smell is gone. I will place it back inside to get some clearance measurements to the cabinet, walls, etc. The Model II is only 2 inches bigger 'front to back' than the model V, so I am hoping for adequate room. full size toilet seat in the camper.... never thought such a thing would be so exciting. roflol

Stopped by our local RV center, and managed to score a few minutes with a tech. He advised me to consider staying with Thetford brand, as the water supply line should be very similar, if not identical. He likes the Dometic series, but warned that switching over would likely mean some re-plumbing of the water supply. All his 'best guess' , but I give it value.

So, the Thetford II Is our 'Great White Hope' (We didnt want bone color. :lol )

https://www.campingworld.com/aqua-magic-style-ii-low-profile-white-14-35652.html

Here's hoping that the '9.5 inches' of clearance 'flange center to wall' has some wiggle room. Even the Model V, model that was in there, calls for 11 inches for side clearance, and our 2350 only gives ~8 1/2 to the shower wall/curtain.

Hoping to go up and get one soon as Mrs V comes back from the nail salon. heartshower Going to unpack and test fit CAREFULLY so it looks unused if a return is needed. Hoping not! :)(:
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Volkemon on November 23, 2021, 03:49:56 pm: Figured I would add this to my camper improvement thread. :)(: The Rest of the Story (RIP Paul H) is here-

https://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?topic=3559.msg41134#msg41134
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: LRUCH on November 24, 2021, 03:08:30 pm: I have attached photos of the back of the base of my toilet. There are 2 holes visible in one photo. The large hole is in the floor to a cavity between the black tank and the floor. It' appears to be somewhat airtight cuz I don't feel cold air flow in the winter or hot air flow in the summer. It seems to be just a gap between the floor and the tank. (maybe it is connected to the channel of pipes and wires that run the perimeter of the RV?) When I replace the toilet, and probably the floor as well, this hole needs to be closed. At that time I'll look into filling the hole with better insulation. For now, I stuffed some non-flammable fiberglass in there because I really can't see what all is in the hole.

However, the small arch hole in the white plastic toilet base is part of the molded design. I suspect it is an opening for a water hose, maybe??? I attempted to fill it with white silicon caulk, but the 1" tall 3/4" wide hole is too big...... so I just covered it with white duct tape. That is what stopped the odors and gnats.

The second photo shows it all covered in fresh white duct tape. No way it is a permanent solution, but no more bugs or smells for now.
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: donc13 on November 24, 2021, 04:29:02 pm: Quote from: LRUCH on November 24, 2021, 03:08:30 pm
I have attached photos of the back of the base of my toilet. There are 2 holes visible in one photo. The large hole is in the floor to a cavity between the black tank and the floor. It' appears to be somewhat airtight cuz I don't feel cold air flow in the winter or hot air flow in the summer. It seems to be just a gap between the floor and the tank. (maybe it is connected to the channel of pipes and wires that run the perimeter of the RV?) When I replace the toilet, and probably the floor as well, this hole needs to be closed. At that time I'll look into filling the hole with better insulation. For now, I stuffed some non-flammable fiberglass in there because I really can't see what all is in the hole.

However, the small arch hole in the white plastic toilet base is part of the molded design. I suspect it is an opening for a water hose, maybe??? I attempted to fill it with white silicon caulk, but the 1" tall 3/4" wide hole is too big...... so I just covered it with white duct tape. That is what stopped the odors and gnats.

The second photo shows it all covered in fresh white duct tape. No way it is a permanent solution, but no more bugs or smells for now.

That hole in the floor is Phoenix's work, not Thetford's
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Volkemon on November 24, 2021, 06:06:49 pm: I looked at the toilet I have, and that arch in the toilet base SHOULD not leak any fumes. It is not part of that large cavity between the seat and base.

If the ring is sealing, that arch/hole is not an issue.

My 2350 is MUCH different, but I would be very distressed to see such a nasty void there also. Looks like the water supply line is hand-screwed on the bottom? It might need that big a hole for access.

My install was a challenge in the water supply, but is in now and looks/works GREAT. (cheer)
Title: Re: Replacing toilet 2005 2100.
Post by: Volkemon on November 25, 2021, 11:16:56 am: If there are any people here that are looking to have a PC built, and getting ideas, a toilet upgrade would be in order.

The cost isnt that much more for the unit itself, and if done during the initial build, plumbing the water wont be an issue.

The 17 pound 'weight penalty' (in my case) is a SMALL price to pay for such increased comfort.

The Thetford Model II is 25 pounds for the low pro model, the Model V that I took out is just under 8.