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Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bangorbob on April 01, 2021, 07:08:42 pm

Title: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Bangorbob on April 01, 2021, 07:08:42 pm: Got fed up with the blinds on the entry door and took it off today. Less noise (my opinion). I believe the door panels are rattling. Questions:
1. Is there insulation in the door?
2. Are there metal or wood beams that run crossways in the door. If yes. I can screw the panels to them.
3. Has anyone put low density spray foam in the door for insulation and to stop the darn noise?

Thanks Bob
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Ron Dittmer on April 02, 2021, 02:00:41 am: 1. - I assume so.
2. - I don't know.
3. - Not me, my door never squeaked or rattled.

Ask your questions to the factory.

Are you sure the door is not loose with the door latch?
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Volkemon on April 02, 2021, 09:50:50 am: Quote from: Bangorbob on April 01, 2021, 07:08:42 pm
Got fed up with the blinds on the entry door and took it off today. Less noise (my opinion). I believe the door panels are rattling. Questions:
1. Is there insulation in the door?
2. Are there metal or wood beams that run crossways in the door. If yes. I can screw the panels to them.
3. Has anyone put low density spray foam in the door for insulation and to stop the darn noise?

Thanks Bob

I have been looking at my door with the object of putting in one of the Lippert windows with an integrated shade. Might be taking it apart to see what is in there. I agree with the blinds being a royal PITA, and I am hesitant to install another set.

I will report back with pictures when I do. (nod)

You can ask the factory, but I am betting they have never taken one apart. On my 2006, the door is a complete assembly made by Liftco, and guessing by the model 'Phoenx' it is made for PC. They prolly just put the whole assembly in at the factory. Liftco has not been very helpful at all, they dont deal with consumers as much as Lippert does. Thats my experience in the past few months, anyway..

I would be hesitant to use spray foam in the door.

Is the rattle in your door a 'Going down the road rattle' or a 'slam it and it makes noise ' rattle? Can you duplicate the rattle pounding your fist on different areas of the door? I am betting there are supports inside, sometimes welds break and make rattles. Diagnostics are the key here for a proper, permanent repair.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: 2 Lucky on April 02, 2021, 12:13:13 pm: Isn't it funny how you can barely hear the person sitting next to you in the cab, but every rattle going down the road is amplified pyho roflol?
Now back to the thread at hand....
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Bangorbob on April 02, 2021, 12:18:03 pm: Latch is tight. Screws/bolts/hinges are all tight. I believe it is just the panel(s) are not tight. I will work on that today.
AND it is incredible that I (we) can hear every rattle in an RV. My wife says the same-you can't hear me or the TV but the rv rattles drive you crazy.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Volkemon on April 02, 2021, 12:26:23 pm: LOL! Well, after putting in the sound dampening, insulation and rubber mat up front... Noise is not a problem. I can hear Mrs V Snoring in bed while I drive. No more hot floor up front either. 2o2 BUT... it did make rattles more noticeable. >( Re-designing the TV mount, and fixing the (factory!) mis-stapled brace and screws to the cutaway roof did WONDERS. No more 'creaky ship' sounds during slow speed bumpy travel, and no more rattles at 55mph above the head. (cheer) (cheer)

Well... went out and started to poke around and see how to disassemble the coach door.

It LOOKS like I first must take out the window, door latch and shade. Then it appears that the inner door panel slides up and out the top. There is a piece of aluminum trim attached to the top of the inner panel, and not attached to the door with any other fastener. Feels loose also, that could be a rattle source. Some 1/2" carpet foam, or equivalent, might stop a rattle there.

There is a row of Philips head screws on the inside of the door on the hinge side, but does not look like they would impede the door inner panel sliding up and out. Dunno. May get wild and crazy and rip things apart. :)(:

EDIT - saw your post right after I posted, Bob! Check the top of that door panel. And 'hand tapping' should show any rattles to the inner door structure.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: 2 Lucky on April 02, 2021, 01:18:32 pm: Maybe some chipboard (thin cardboard) strips as shims in any loose spots might do the trick if it is the panel.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: CalCruiser on April 02, 2021, 04:50:09 pm: There's a thread about the retractable screen door rattle. Maybe that's
what you are hearing? Our side door has sliding curtains on a pair of rods above and below the window, so the only rattling mini blind is on the galley window. The door rattle was solved by adjusting the latch. After implementing Ron's loose microwave oven fix those other rattles got louder LOL.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Ron Dittmer on April 02, 2021, 04:51:28 pm: Boy oh boy, I can't stand rattles and squeaks. In our 2007 E350 PC-2350 (no slide out) we had an orchestra of them when the rig was new. One by one I chased them down with great success, but it is a process that never seems to rest. I have to say that considering what we are driving, I managed to quiet-down our trips comfortably so.

Here is a list of things I have done.

- Have the right tire pressure, not over-killing on PSI.
- Inspect the entry door frame perimeter screws making sure every one is tight to the main house. I was surprised some were sheared off, especially the two on the bottom through the threshold.
- Spray a "touch" of silicone lube in each cabinet door spring latch. Try one latch and wait making sure the plastic does not melt. Some seemingly harmless sprays literally melt the plastic latch.
- Install rubber drawer liners everywhere, even in utensil trays.
- Place paper towels in between stacked cookware.
- Use Corelle plates because they stack very tightly and take up very little space.
- Contain all non-perishable food that is in cans, bottles and similar, in small baskets, then placed in cabinets.
- Chronic microwave oven squeaks solved through spiked "T" nuts, machine screws, and felt pads
- Flip-up counter extension, added felt pads in critical places on hinges
- Placed a thick silicone pot holder on the stove grates, then set the covers on.
- Opened up the TV and placed many felt pads throughout to prevent the metal shielding from singing
- Roof top crank-up antenna, added felt pads on the bottom feet and wing tips.
- B+ front cap cabinetry, added screws per Phoenix, Kermit's instruction.
- E350 chassis, replaced front coil springs with lower-rated ones that better match our "actual working" load, softening the ride up front. The softer the suspension, the more quiet the ride.

We have thermal windows which I think also helps with general road noise. We do not have a slide out in our PC so I wouldn't know if they are a source of noise. It would be interesting to read from others concerning their slide out(s).

When felt pads were called for, I use this type sold everywhere, but just $1 at Dollar Tree.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/bA0AAOSwSjpcnQvt/s-l400.jpg)

When I solved the bigger noise generators, the lesser ones rose to the occasion. Eventually I reduced noise to wind, tire, and general machine-rumble noises that cannot be addressed without stopping motion altogether.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: mikeh on April 02, 2021, 05:11:17 pm: Fortunately, I've never noticed a single squeak or rattle in my unit--it's almost perfectly silent in operation!!

Now, if I ever listen to all the members of my family that are urging me to get hearing aids........ :-D
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Volkemon on April 02, 2021, 05:38:43 pm: Quote from: mikeh on April 02, 2021, 05:11:17 pm
Fortunately, I've never noticed a single squeak or rattle in my unit--it's almost perfectly silent in operation!!

Now, if I ever listen to all the members of my family that are urging me to get hearing aids........ :-D

Like the guys that I ride motorcycles with....

Me: How do I get rid of this noise? What is it?

Them: GET LOUD PIPES! roflol roflol

Its true. Riding in 'The Pack' of ~50 bikes this bikeweek, I couldn't hear a rattle. (exactly) Or much else for a few hrs after..... :help Next year: Ear plugs. (cheer)
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Bangorbob on April 02, 2021, 07:21:58 pm: Again, Thanks for the inputs/advice. I did notice the roll up screen door hitting the frame. Will put something between the 2. I will try some shims in the door panel temporarily.
Volk, waiting to find out what is in the door. BTW, riding with other motorcycles I never hear and rattles OR anything after riding. LOL
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Volkemon on April 03, 2021, 01:32:39 pm: (cheer) (cheer) (cheer) Ladies and Gentlemen.. May I present to you..... (cheer) (cheer) (cheer)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092219764_7d9d8d220f_o.jpg)

roflol OK, its as I expected. Remove the door latch, Inside window trim, the shade top mounts and the two retainers on the bottom. The inner panel slides up and off! 2o2

(When I previewed this pic here, it shows as stretched horizontally. (WH) NOT sure why, but you can still see what is needed. )

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092207309_52fbb246a2_o.jpg)

**********************************************************************************

Inside is 1" polystyrene insulation. Not glued, just placed in the holes.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092942235_efd0f6b566_o.jpg)

*********************************************************************************
There are two pieces of wood, and two pieces of foam that fell out. I could see the wood being a someday rattle... (nod)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092674173_c047e48062_o.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092211584_55fab48a71_o.jpg)

To check on them, and to 'de-rattle' them, you would not have to remove the panel. Just remove the window trim ring inside, and pull the panel out towards you to insert some foam. Plenty of room to work.

********************************************************************************

If you find you need to screw the door panel to the interior braces, there are 5 horizontal members. The top and bottom of the door, and three internal. The internal ones are faced with wood stapled to the aluminum. This MIGHT be a rattle source, if so screwing through all layers should eliminate that. You dont have to remove the door panel for this, I have the measurements taken from the top down, of the internal braces. I got a pic of the bottom to show thickness.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092222382_6a58364e15_o.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092941625_6d048d12a3_o.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092673493_56be1a16d9_o.jpg)

Door Latch side -
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092673153_683ee5e566_o.jpg)

Hinge side -
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092129976_a16919de4b_o.jpg)

There are 4 angle braces on the bottom. All the same measurements from the neighboring braces-
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092129756_be33430c3c_o.jpg)

******************************************************************************************

Looks like mine had water come in, but not TOO often. Black mold, but very little rot. 2o2

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092220567_71016a5e1c_o.jpg)

Top trim detail, it is glued (with sealant?) to the wood.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092207844_97028d197e_o.jpg)

********************************************************************
I stuck the loose foam and wood pieces on with a 'sticky loop' of duct tape -

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092129231_d0e30dfce1_o.jpg)

Sliding the panel back down, I put tabs of duct tape on to keep the foam and wood pieces from catching.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092218572_4dd962b3f6_o.jpg)

Panel slid down easily and into the bottom groove.

Reinstall the latch, window trim and shade and you are good to go! :)(:

There is a row of philips screws on the inner hinge side, and the magnet tells me they are holding some steel inside the aluminum. Probably a brace? The magnet did not stick up where the hinge bolts were, just between or near the screws. I did not remove the insulation to see it inside.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51092218152_f59744f3db_o.jpg)

Window cutout is 16 1/4" x 24 1/4 " as close as I could tell. I did not want to break the seal of the window to get exact measurements. But it sure helps in the search for a replacement with internal blinds. (nod)
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: 2 Lucky on April 03, 2021, 01:47:24 pm: Nice pics and descriptions. tymote Is that what you call fun on a Friday afternoon? roflol :)(:

I thumped on the inside of my door. It sounded like a rattle could come from anywhere right in the center, the edges seemed tight.
I might pull the window trim and slide a drywall shim down in to take up slack there.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Volkemon on April 03, 2021, 02:14:54 pm: Quote from: 2 Lucky on April 03, 2021, 01:47:24 pm
Nice pics and descriptions. tymote Is that what you call fun on a Friday afternoon? roflol :)(:

:)(: Its Saturday here. roflol And yeah, I am a real 'gearhead'. hithere Finding out is fun. Helping others is a bonus. 2o2

I have been wanting to know what was in there. And it took longer to do the post than to do the R&R of the panel. (exactly)

And now with internals of the door well known, I am SEARCHING for a replacement window with internal shade. So far they have been too narrow.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Bangorbob on April 03, 2021, 02:34:46 pm: Holy mackerel Batman!!! Pow! Ka bam! Volk, what a job. I can't say enough about your pics and write up. It appears that strategically placed white round pan head screws and/or some low density foam (not much) would really solve any rattle problems. I'm betting the water intrusion came in from a poorly, or wore out) sealed outside door trim.
Just an idea. Would a couple of weep holes (maybe 3) in the bottom of the door solve and possible water build up?????
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Ron Dittmer on April 03, 2021, 02:47:26 pm: Volkemon,

You are the master at such research. Thank you for that!

It appears that there is room for little improvements with regard to "gaps in insulation. I assume that would be typical throughout the industry, typical throughout every wall and ceiling in a PC.

A little expandable foam applied in the voids, then trimmed flush after curing, would hold things nicely together as well as increase general insulation. I wonder if adhering something like headliner material via spray-on contact adhesive on the back-side of the luan panel, would eliminate noises created through abrasion with other materials.

My thoughts are surely over-kill for most, but if someone has serious irritating door noises, it's not a time to cut corners.

To be honest, this is the first time I have read of a complaint over significant noises generated from within the entry door. But after seeing Volkemon's research, I can understand how it is happening.

The reason why the walls and ceiling remain quiet is because they are vacu-bonded together. I assumed the same applied to the entry door, but is obviously not the case.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Volkemon on April 03, 2021, 03:08:15 pm: Quote from: Bangorbob on April 03, 2021, 02:34:46 pm
Holy mackerel Batman!!! Pow! Ka bam! Volk, what a job. I can't say enough about your pics and write up. It appears that strategically placed white round pan head screws and/or some low density foam (not much) would really solve any rattle problems. I'm betting the water intrusion came in from a poorly, or wore out) sealed outside door trim.
Just an idea. Would a couple of weep holes (maybe 3) in the bottom of the door solve and possible water build up?????

There was very little sign of water intrusion. I had the camper parked off level (Right side HIGH) for a short time, and it did rain hard. I had to put foil tape around the perimeter of the door to stop the water. I learned, and have ALWAYS parked level since, and had NO water come in. The foil tape pulled off paint when removed, causing rust spots. The "paint" looks as if it really powdercoat, with the attendant adhesion problems on the sharp edge. I am going to remove the ENTIRE door and frame assembly to fix that.

The radiant barrier I used in the cab floor would make a GREAT noise and heat solution, I have a bunch left over. (I got a 4' x 100' roll IIRC, it lives in the basement) This stuff - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-48-in-x-100-ft-Double-Reflective-Insulation-Roll-BP48100/202092205 Its light, I could ship you a suitable sized panel.

I am gonna use it when I go in that door next time. Spray adhesive to the door, foil tape on the top and around the latch and window. Then sliiiiiide the panel down carefully. 2o2 Thats the plan.

I want to replace the inner panel of the coach door with the same material I will be re-doing the bathroom walls and stall with - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glasliner-4-ft-x-8-ft-White-090-FRP-Wall-Board-MFTF12IXA480009600/100389836 Little thinner, .090 vs .125 inches. The insulation behind would help 'make that up'.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Volkemon on April 03, 2021, 03:17:57 pm: Quote from: Ron Dittmer on April 03, 2021, 02:47:26 pm

A little expandable foam applied in the voids, then trimmed flush after curing, would hold things nicely together as well as increase general insulation. I wonder if adhering something like headliner material via spray-on contact adhesive on the back-side of the luan panel, would eliminate noises created through abrasion with other materials.

The reason why the walls and ceiling remain quiet is because they are vacu-bonded together. I assumed the same applied to the entry door, but is obviously not the case.

Yeah, I bet that door was put together on a table by someone who never went near the PC factory. PC never takes it apart, just puts an assembly in the hole.

I would NOT put in expanding foam. Very little return for a lot of problems if you DO want in later. Likewise spraying glue on the panel, it slides to install. Touching the glued surfaces before it was totally seated would be disaster. Disassembly would destroy. :beg And I am pretty sure you would need a special glue for the expanded polystyrene, as most contact cements will melt it in my experience.

I feel that a contiguous sheet of the Mylar bubble radiant barrier as I described in my reply to BangorBob would be the best overall solution. I will find out! :)(:
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Ron Dittmer on April 03, 2021, 06:44:23 pm: I think you misunderstood me Volkemon.

I was implying to consider expandable foam with the inner panel removed, let cure, then trim flush so the inner panel could be slid back in.

Before sliding the inner panel back in, line the back side of it with headliner material which is a cloth surface with a 1/8" foam backing. Once cured and trimmed, then slide it down into the door assembly. The headliner material would make a nice ultra-thin pad between panels.

The end result would be that you could disassemble again if ever needed.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Volkemon on April 03, 2021, 07:48:39 pm: Quote from: Ron Dittmer on April 03, 2021, 06:44:23 pm
I think you misunderstood me Volkemon.

I was implying to consider expandable foam with the inner panel removed, let cure, then trim flush so the inner panel could be slid back in.

Before sliding the inner panel back in, line the back side of it with headliner material which is a cloth surface with a 1/8" foam backing. Once cured and trimmed, then slide it down into the door assembly. The headliner material would make a nice ultra-thin pad between panels.

The end result would be that you could disassemble again if ever needed.

Yep! Totally read that wrong. Getting things ready for Easter, running in and out with the door, and sampling cookies... :)(: ADHD in action. roflol Apologies, and THANKS for the patient correction. tymote
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Bangorbob on April 04, 2021, 10:29:50 am: Volk, Thanks for the offer for the reflectix. I have lined the outside walls on the inside of my cupboards with this stuff. It serves as a little insulation and noise reduction. It keeps the temp in my cupboards down by 4-7 degrees in the desert summer.
I didn't explain very well about the expanding foam. Ron's comment about filling the voids and trimming was a much better description of what I was thinking of doing. I have done that process in a floor of an RV to fill huge voids.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: 2 Lucky on April 04, 2021, 12:16:26 pm: Quote from: Bangorbob on April 04, 2021, 10:29:50 am
Volk, Thanks for the offer for the reflectix. I have lined the outside walls on the inside of my cupboards with this stuff. It serves as a little insulation and noise reduction. It keeps the temp in my cupboards down by 4-7 degrees in the desert summer.
I didn't explain very well about the expanding foam. Ron's comment about filling the voids and trimming was a much better description of what I was thinking of doing. I have done that process in a floor of an RV to fill huge voids.
That reflextix is great in many uses. I cut pieces to friction fit inside all of the windows. It does an amazing job in extreme temps. Also it is a total blackout when desired. Using inside the cabinets is a great idea too, thanks tymote :)(:
Sorry, hijacked it again....
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Bangorbob on April 05, 2021, 10:27:47 am: Thanks to the great pics/etc. Taking the door apart was probably one of the easiest things I have done on an RV. Anyone the same top 2 side pieces of wood and styrofoam were loose in mine. I used 3m 77 spray glue to glue the styrofoam in place. Used a few dabs of silicone for the wood. Put pink insulation in all the cracks and voids. Green duct taped all seams. In picture door 2 I added the small sheet of reflectix just because I could. Much more solid. Have to take for test drive to see if this was worth it, which it sure couldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Ron Dittmer on April 05, 2021, 08:41:09 pm: And there you go. Good for you, thanks to Volkemon's research. Hopefully it does the trick for you.
Title: Re: Exterior Door Insulation/Rattles
Post by: Bangorbob on April 05, 2021, 09:26:38 pm: Absolutely, a huge thanks to Volkemon for his research and postings. I would probably still be thinking about it.