Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: jdw on March 24, 2011, 02:51:47 pm
-
We're in our 2350 right now. The wind's up today and my wife (no I'm not driving and typing :) ) is getting blown all over the road.
Based on the earlier feedback about leveling and stabilizing, I think for the time being doing some changes to the suspension would be a better overall use of money than leveling jacks.
I've read quite a bit on here about what people have done (Hi Ron!) and if I understand right there are several things to look at:
1) Shocks.
2) Stabilizer Bars (Front & Rear)
3) Steering Stabilizer
4) Rear trac bar
The problem I'm findng is none of these are available for the 2011 chassis. (Checked Roadmaster, Hellwig, Bilstein, etc.) Most of them seem to be available only for models up until 2008 to 2010 depending on the part.
Does anybody know where these types of parts might be available for a 2011 chassis?
Also, is a "sway bar" the same as one of the above? I'm a little out of my depth here.
Thanks!
-
Hi jdw,
A sway bar and stabilizer bar are one and the same.
BEFORE YOU BUY ANYTHING, first get a front wheel alignment, compliments of Ford. Call Ford customer service for instruction. When you go there, have a full tank of fresh water & fuel, all your gear, etc. Try to simulate the weight as if leaving on a trip. If you want to go the extra mile, add weight to simulate driver and passenger. I threw in some weights from exercise equipment, set on the floor behind the two front seats.
About your 2011 chassis not having availability, I suspect the on-line information has not yet been updated to accomodate 2011 model years. I advise to call Helwig and Roadmaster direct. They may say to simply order 2010 parts.
I also advise to have both the rear sway bar and rear trac bar installed at the same time. This because the installer will need to adjust the position of the sway bar to accomodate the trac bar. You would not want anyone to mess with sway bar mounting hardware twice.
If your budget is very limited, start first with rear sway & trac bars. That will address the worst of your handling troubles. Immediately following would be a front sway bar. If you still have issues, then do the shocks and steering stabilizer.
As you know we had everything done all at once which made a "MEGA" improvement in handling. Our rig is a real joy to drive and ride in. No more "Drunken Sailer".
-
http://www.brazelsrv.com/
These are great people to deal with. Just purchased a Rear Trac-Bar and very pleased. Told them my rig was a 2011 and he check, recommended the trac-bar, I put it on and works great.
1) Shocks.
Shock absorbers are just that, as you your rig moves up and down the shocks help it from being a yoyo. Absorbs the bounce
2) Stabilizer Bars (Front & Rear)
Both front and rear are too small. After market is much larger (in diameter) helping keep your rig from side to side motion.
3) Steering Stabilizer
On the front, big & costly shock. Helps when hitting ruts, off the shoulder, quick movements of the rig. Not being a smart ass, but it’s a steering stabilizer. Usually mounts on a solid part of the frame and then to the front steering suspension.
4) Rear trac bar
Also the trac-bar mounts to the rear housing and then to the frame. When a big truck passes you, you do not have that rear side-to-side movement. It does not affect the up and down movement.
I hope this helps, I know I’ve probably forgot something. billy
-
Great run-down there Billy.
Just to add, the stock Ford chassis comes from Ford with everything except for a rear trac bar. As you mentioned, it has (of coarse) shocks..... and front & rear sway bars. But the chassis also has a steering stabilizer. The problem is that none are enough for such a heavily loaded chassis, a house on wheels.
The front steering stabilizer and sway bar is the same installed on an E150 van. The 4 shocks are the same used in an E250 van. All very inadequate for a motor home application.
-
I don't mind calling Bilstein and Hellwig. Due to the towing nightmare (still not resolved), Roadmaster is on my (censored) list.
I would like to do as much of it as possible at once as I can, and the more it also helps with "coach wobble" when moving around the inside while camping, the happier I am to spend money on it. :-)
(Even with the HWH leveling jacks I think my biggest objection turned out not to be the cost, but the gigantic control box they propose to leave flopping around the inside of the unit.)
On the Bilstein shocks, does anyone have any feedback on their "heavy duty" shock versus their "comfort" shock?
I do wish there was a local expert on these sorts of things that I could trust to just order and install everything. But, there's not. So I muddle through. Being in Central Florida, getting weighty metal* stuff from Washington state has already proved to be a big hassle, (thanks again, Roadmaster) so that probably rules out Billy's suggestion.
On the alignment, that sounds like a good idea. When you say "Call Ford customer service" do you mean the local Ford dealer service department?
Thanks!
*I originally wrote "heavy metal" but I figured it would confuse people into wondering how the Seattle music scene fits into my problems.
-
jdw,
My experience is with our 2010 2551 which is on the E450 chassis instead of the E350 on your 2350 model.
An alignment and lower front tire pressure (70 vs 75) significantly helped the steering to feel more positive.
I installed Roadmaster sway bars front and rear and just returned from a 2500 mile trip. Huge improvement in handling in wind and passing trucks. Also no more pitching side to side going into driveways and more stable in camp.
It handles well enough now that my wife is very comfortable driving it. However, being burdened with analism, I still feel some "tail wagging the dog" when towing the Jeep and have purchased a Blue Ox rear track bar. I will install it soon and see how it does on a trip in May.
Based on the way it handles now, I don't plan to upgrade shocks or steering stabilizer.
Good luck, Bob
Bob
-
On the Bilstein shocks, does anyone have any feedback on their "heavy duty" shock versus their "comfort" shock?
When you say "Call Ford customer service" do you mean the local Ford dealer service department?
As everyone on RV.net says, get the "Heavy Duty", not the "Comfort". Even considering the weight of a lighter E350 as compared to a heavier E450, the heavy duty versions are still the best for your application. I have Koni-RV adjustable shocks, and they are set to the stiffest setting. They do their job well without making the ride any rougher than my wimpy original Ford shocks.
About contacting Ford, if you cannot find the number in your owner's manual, then contact your local Ford service department and they will get you the number to call.
-
About contacting Ford, if you cannot find the number in your owner's manual, then contact your local Ford service department and they will get you the number to call.
When I get them, what do I tell/ask them? I guess I don't understand why I'd call customer service at the home office rather than somebody local who can actually do the alignment. Is there a "free alignment recall" or something?
I can tell I'm being dense here. Probably missing the obvious. Sorry.
-
I don't know why anyone would want to put sway bars on a PC, they sway far to much already. I would suggest you put anti-sway bars on. :lol
I had my 2350 built on the E450 to get the heavier suspension and still needed to upgrade the shocks to Bilstein HD shocks. I ordered them on eshocks.com, best price I could find. I have ordered the roadmaster rear anti-sway bar and will have it installed on April 1st. I prefer to do one thing at a time and see what effect it has on the handling and ride. This way I can stop when I feel everything is to my liken. The Blue Ox site has a nice writeup about handling.
-
I had a Road master? I think on the Hurricane we traded. I removed it and still have it. IT'S A BIG ONE! Needed my wife and two small children to lift it roflol I'm trying to install it on the Cruiser. Bob, we got every thing loaded and aired up the tires and the front is a little "loose" think I'll lower the front tires and call about that FREE align.
-
I have the same "light" front end feeling on my 2010 E-450 2551 that everyone is speaking about. I just took it in for and alignment at a heavy duty truck center and it was off some but not as much as I would have expected. The improvement is very small if any. I went (called) to 6 different Ford dealership in my area (50 mile radius) 3 of which were certified Ford heavy duty truck dealers and none of them would do a front end alignment on the coach. I did lodge a complaint with Ford as to the difficulty I was having before I took the coach to the non-Ford truck shop and paid the $125 out of my pocket. Subsequent calls to Ford headquarters proved very interesting. Front end alignments are NOT done free or under warranty period. The cut away chassis's come out of the factory in Ohio and go direclty to the coach builders. Because the factory does
not know what kind of coach will be placed on the chassis and what the weight distribution will be it would be impossible for them to alighn the front ends properly. It is the responsibility of the coach builder to have the chassis alighned after all fabrication work has be done and before the coach is delivered to the customer. I do not know if PC does this or not but I can guess? Out of Ford's "customer good will" budget my $125 bill is being covered becasue of the problems I had dealing with the multiple dealers, not because the front end was out This explanation came from the Ford Motor Home Customer Service manager.
-
Very interesting. I was told Ford covers that initial alignment, which is contradictory to your experience.
Four years ao I piad $170 for my front wheel alignment, this done before I heard Ford "supposedly" covers it. Mine was more costly than most because of the extra labor and parts involved to replace center-set bushings with off-set bushings to adjust for an extreme camber condition. I would assume that condition is because the front is much lighter than normal. I do have my fresh water tank in the very back of my 2350. That 400 pounds alone, would lighten up the front by that amount. Then adding 55 gallons of fuel and all the rest behind the rear axle, and there goes my front camber to the extreme.
-
Ron and others.....Only one of the 6 Ford dealers said they would even attempt to put the front end work thru on warranty and they "thought" we "might" have a chance because the steerring wheel was not straignt across when the front wheels were straight. Not sure how this warranty work all works but it might be how the work gets coded as to how they get paid (or not paid) for the work! Again, atleast on the day I called Ford the manager was very firm that they did not cover any front end work on motor homes that was the manfacturers responsibility. I am sure the manfacturers have another opinion!
-
The steering wheel being straight has nothing to do with the alignment. When we aligned cars or trucks we centered the wheel as a courtesy. That was easily done when setting the toe. Also a dealer can ALWAYS find something wrong with ANY car/truck to warranty the work. We did all kinds of work free. Alignments were easy, I would write on the work order, test-drive and found car/truck pulled to the right, necessary to align.
-
Billy:
I think you have put the pieces together; the wheel issue was stated with a "wink of the eye", as they are my local dealer and always treat me very well. You are right, the wheel has nothing to do with the alighment...but
-
Hi jdw
We have the 2008 2350 and the first thing we did was have the alignment done. The next thing was to have the Heavy Duty Bilstein shocks on the front only. Finally, a year later we installed the blue ox tiger trac to eliminate the body sway from side to side. What a huge improvement on the 2350. We have the 2008 with slide and were in gust up to 50 mph and there were no issues. The RV now drives like a typical F-150 with a cap. This trac bar is different than the sway bar. We have kept the original front and rear sway bars. We are very pleased with the ride and driveability.
-
ok, you all have me very confused. I had a very good idea of what I was going to do come spring when I pull the mh out of the pole barn. But now??? I was going to slap anti sway bars front and back. A job I think I can handle myself. But now Barry-sue talks about a trac bar? What's the diff? and which is better? Are they the same thing. Ron or Billy how about a clarification here?
Thanks
David.
-
http://www.brazelsrv.com/
These are great people to deal with. Just purchased a Rear Trac-Bar and very pleased. Told them my rig was a 2011 and he check, recommended the trac-bar, I put it on and works great.
1) Shocks.
Shock absorbers are just that, as you your rig moves up and down the shocks help it from being a yoyo. Absorbs the bounce
2) Stabilizer Bars (Front & Rear)
Both front and rear are too small. After market is much larger (in diameter) helping keep your rig from side to side motion.
3) Steering Stabilizer
On the front, big & costly shock. Helps when hitting ruts, off the shoulder, quick movements of the rig. Not being a smart ass, but it’s a steering stabilizer. Usually mounts on a solid part of the frame and then to the front steering suspension.
4) Rear trac bar
Also the trac-bar mounts to the rear housing and then to the frame. When a big truck passes you, you do not have that rear side-to-side movement. It does not affect the up and down movement.
I hope this helps, I know I’ve probably forgot something. billy
-
I will take a stab at it too.
Sway/stabilizer bars reduce side-to-side swaying. Like a pine tree would sway in a gusty wind storm. Like a boat or a buoy rocks side-to-side in water.
A rear trac bar eliminates horizontal side-to-side motion. The motion is caused from the rear leaf springs twisting. That is why on a van style class B+/C there is no need for a front trac bar because the chassis does not have front leaf springs.
I can easily create the same motion with my little Ford Ranger pickup truck by standing close to the rear tailgate, pushing on the side in quick succession, getting it to shake it's butt sideways wildly. I cannot do that with the front end because it has coil springs and the rest that goes with that type of suspension.
-
Ron & Billy:
It seems to me to the anti-sway bars and trac bars do the basically the same thing. Which one is the better one to start with?
DJM
-
Each addresses a different type of unwanted motion. I advise to get both right from the start. If you do just the sway bar, I understand it will have to be removed to install the trac bar, so just do both.....done once, done right.
-
http://www.blueox.us/TruCenter/pdfs/ClassC.pdf
Blue Ox write up for class C motorhomes in order that they should be done, unless you have lots of money and just want to throw money at the problem and have everything on at one time, which will at the very least fix just about everything. You may or may not want to use their products.
-
After reading everyone's comments, I decided to replace the shocks and sway (anti sway for the purist) on my 2350. It took me a full day to replace the stock shocks with Bilstein HD shocks front and back only because I kept having to "find" tools I just had. Then I replaced the front and back sway bars with Hellwig anti sway bars, and that took me one day for the rear bar and a couple hours for the front bar. It was a fairly simple installation except for a couple times when I over thought what I was doing. After installing the front shocks, the test drive didn't show significant difference except for a stiffer ride. The new rear shocks made a significant difference. Then the test drive with the new rear sway bar was everything everyone has commented on in this post. The front sway bar topped off a very satisfactory installation and test drive. The difference is remarkable! We're leaving next Monday on a long trip east, and I can't wait to experince the difference on the open road. I did all the labor myself, and the total cost for these upgrades was $790.70. The best price I found for the Bilstein HD shocks was through eshocks.com for $82.55 each with no shopping cost or tax. The Hellwig front sway bar was $199.71, the rear $204.95 and shipping was $55.84 through sdtrucksprings.com. All parts were received within 5 days of my order. I'll get the steering stabilizer after this trip. I'm considering lowering the front tires to 70 psi from the recommended 75 to soften the ride a little. Anybody have any thought about whether this is a good or bad idea? Thanks for all your comments on the benefits of these upgrades that truly inspired me to undertake this project.
-
Once we loaded the PC the front was a little loose, I lowered the front tires to 70psi and help a lot. Tomorrow we have it alignment. I worked at is shop doing the alignment. I don't feel like trying to get the dealer to "wink" so I can get a free alignment. Then next Tuesday we drive back to the coast, will see how it handles.
-
lmichael,
On the way home from picking up the PC at the factory, I stopped and had it weight at a truck scale. When I got home I looked on the Michelin site and found their chart on my tires. It said that I could put 15 lbs less than what the door label said. Since then I have run with the pressure at 5 lbs less than the door, ie 70 lbs in the front and 75 in the rear. I feel this helps with the steering while keeping the gas mileage from dropping. I have been told that soft tires help ride and steering/traction while hard increases gas mileage.
Do you know what the differences are between the Hellwig bars and the Roadmaster? I know the Roadmaster cost a lot more. I had my 2350 built on the E-450 for the stronger suspension. After reading all that has been said on here about changing the anti-sway bars, while at Camping World one day I had them put the Roadmaster rear anti-sway bar on. It did seem to help a little. Now I don't know the trucks are passing me until they are by my door and wake me up. heehee. I am running out of things to change on the PC, so one of these days I guess I might put the upgraded front bar on. Wonder if I could get away with the cheaper bar?
-
The RV suspension shop that installed all my upgrades told me I should put 60psi in the rear tires and 65 in the front tires. I followed his advise for a weekend get-away to find the handling great and the ride very comfortable, but I wasn't comfortable with it because the tires looked underinflated. I run with 65 in the rears and 70 in the fronts since. Funny that the tires still look underinflated. I have to put in 75/80 psi all around for the tires to look right, but the ride gets uncomfortable, and the handling a bit compromised.
I don't have a slide out so my rig is a bit lighter than the typical 2350. Maybe that is how I get by with a little less psi.
Comparing Helwig to Roadmaster bars. They are both made using the same steel, and have the same diameter. The Roadmaster mounting method is very different. It involve cast aluminum clamp-downs for mounting points for the end links. I can see why it costs a lot more. I just don't know if the Roadmaster bars are over-engineered. Look close at this picture of my front bar.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3340/3507692941_5b12a9b1b0_z.jpg)
-
To add further info to Ron's post regarding Roadmaster front bar mounting. I added the Roadmaster bars to my 2010 E450. The front bar has a different mount for newer years than what Ron shows for his 2007. As the picture shows, Ford added a mounting point for the factory swaybar end link. Roadmaster uses the factory end link making the install easier and cleaner. I believe this applies to 2009 and newer E350 and E450, check with Roadmaster to be sure - or just look under your rig to see if you have the factory swaybar endlink shown in the picture.
Bob
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_HPzr_beG0fo/TclZJZP01lI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/eKiEQ43nICY/s720/IMG_1306.JPG)
-
Oh, I REALLY like that Bobander. Much cleaner and surely more reliable in the long run.
-
Ron, I've seen the picture of your steering stabilizer. Would you be able to take a few more pictures of the stabilizer. Maybe one of each end? Would like to see how it's mounted. Would appreciate it. Had the rig aligned and felt a small improvement. They worked on the camber and got with-in factory spec, but on the high end for the camber. So I opted for the off set bushings to bring the camber down closer to a 1/4. billy
-
Would you be able to take a few more pictures of the stabilizer. Maybe one of each end? Would like to see how it's mounted.
I emailed you what I had on-hand.....to your mac.com address.
-
This discussion about alignment is interesting. From 2350 experience I know that a correct alignment is important for proper steering response and to avoid premature and damaging irregular front tire wear. Clearly the chassis builder does a basic alignment, but that is no good once the coach is installed. Phoenix could do an alignment but the rig would be unloaded and again the alignment would be inaccurate. It should be emphasised that a new owner should load his rig and get an alignment as soon as possible after purchase. Perhaps Phoenix could give new owners a credit for this; unless we can swing one of these "under warranty" deals. It takes a little searching to find a truck place set up to do alignments on a motor home, but it is something that needs to be done.
BillRo
-
You are right BillRo. An alignment is critical, and critical to be done loaded for a trip, which the factory could never simulate. And the shop that can handle the task adequately are hard to find. My local shop does motor homes as one specialty, trucks and buses too. They have various specialty parts and also bushings on display to help explain things for customers. They go through various alignment scenarios, and how they adjust for such extremes that the chassis itself cannot be adjusted far enough without such special parts.
The shop told me to go on a weekend get-away, making sure we include everything we typically take along. When we get back home, leave everything inside, but be sure the gray and black tanks are empty, and the fresh water tank is full as that is the most common travel mode. Also fill the propane tank and main 55 gallon gas tank. He also said it wouldn't hurt to place heavy weights behind the driver and passenger seats to simute the two of us in those seats. His alignment is then done with that weight placement on the chassis and also considers a 1/4" road lean to the right curb which is the national standard for water run-off. It all made sense to me.