Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Engineerlt on June 21, 2020, 08:37:11 am
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I just started re-configuring my coach battery compartment to accept an 8D AGM battery. I found that the wiring mounted behind the batteries was wired incorrectly. I am not sure if this was a factory issue or for some reason somebody had inadvertently changed the wiring configuration. Those of you who have looked into your battery compartment at the wiring on the back wall know that its not easily accessed so the mindset is if its working don't mess with it usually applies. Well I found that the wire leading to the levelers was wired straight to the batteries and didn't go through the parallel ANL fuses, which meant no short circuit protection for the levelers main feed; bad deal if something shorted.
Just an FYI if you didn't know, the generator is connected to a 120 Amp reset-able breaker, there are 2ea 200 Amp ANL fuses in parallel that feed the levelers and coach battery switch/12 Volt power system. I have also added a 40 Amp ANL fuse for my solar system.
My reconfiguration is to also relocate the ANL fuses and generator circuit breaker to where it can be accessed inside the battery compartment without having to remove the batteries. In order to fit the 8D battery I had to widen the battery compartment which required removing it, cutting and welding to get the dimensions required for the battery.
I am attaching a picture of the wiring which shows the leveler wire attached to the wrong side of the ANL fuses. It may be a little difficult to follow but the wire on the top right runs to the batteries, then the jumper wire joins the two ANL fuses on the right side and on the bottom of the right side the 2 additional wires one is for the solar supply to the batteries which is fused prior to and the other wire is the leveler feed. You can see its wired on the wrong side of the ANL fuses.
It might be worth a check to ensure your protected.
Lance
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I had a similar wiring error on my 2016 PC. I contacted Kermit and he confirmed the error. He said this wire was connected by the HWH service center when the jacks were installed. I relocated the jack wire to the other side of the fuse so it would be protected.
I thought this may be a one off error but sure sounds like everyone with the HWH leveling jacks should check to confirm this circuit is properly protected.
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Interesting that PC new of the issue from HWH and didn't check follow on units to ensure they were wired correctly. Anyhow here is my take on how it should have been wired, still waiting for the shipping company to delivery my battery so its not installed yet (it will lay on its side) and the bottom bus bar will have the battery connection at one of the ANL fuses. Here is a picture of my idea.
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Lance: Very much like your workmanship over the factories there.
Only suggestion would be to use a non flammable back plane.
My fear would be that if a loose connection developed, the heat could lead to a larger issue.
Many years ago, I caught some guff at work from the more experienced engineers when I built one of my first inverter cabinets in a 3'w x 6't metal cabinet with a plywood back plane.
Funny thing is, the managers didn't know better and put a large picture of the cabinet interior on display in one of our conference rooms. We all got a chuckle whenever we would go in there for meetings.
That picture lives in my garage now.
Something like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/electrical-grade-fiberglass-(gpo3)/ might be more appropriate and is short money for a 12"x12" x1/4" piece.
As usual your energy and ingenuity amaze me. :)(:
And thanks for the heads up on factory wiring error. I will certainly be checking my PC for that un-fused conductor.
Regards.
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Hello Jim
You are correct, I need to look into a better back plane instead of wood. Time to get off my wallet and get the proper materials, just got into a building fury and grabbed what I had at hand. Also thanks for the link, I am going to order a piece of that fiberglass. As always I appreciate the input it only makes my project that much better.
Very Respectfully
Lance
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Only suggestion would be to use a non flammable back plane.
Something like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/electrical-grade-fiberglass-(gpo3)/ might be more appropriate and is short money for a 12"x12" x1/4" piece.
Reinforcement Material Fiberglass Fabric
Resin Material Polyester
Arc resistant, but FAR from non-flammable! Ever see a fiberglass boat burn? Flame retardant additives can be added, you will generally see that reflected in the specs and price.
Fire retardant - https://www.mcmaster.com/fiberglass-sheets/multipurpose-flame-retardant-garolite-g-10-fr4-sheets-and-bars/
About twice the price, $31 vs $17.
Personally.... I would just keep the wood. If you have those electrical connections hot enough to start wood on fire ( ~450*) you probably have bigger problems that require more immediate attention! Max temperature for both the fiberglass sheets is under 300*.. :beg
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OK, maybe I am not totally understanding your intent. You say you want to get to the ANL fuses and breaker without having to remove the battery.
With that in mind... Where did you plan on putting the wood or fiberglass backing (with the neater layout)?
You modified the width of the compartment, did you keep the slide out or will the battery just be mounted on the bottom of your now wider compartment?
Don
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Hello Don
The AGM 8D battery will be behind the support for the ANL fuses/circuit breaker. The 8D battery will be mounted on its side and the terminal connections will be to the left of the support of the ANL fuses/circuit breaker allowing for access. The AGM requires no maintenance so the battery tray isn't really needed anymore. This configuration puts everything in view and easy access to all the connections, before you couldn't see the ANL fuses or the circuit breaker, set-up for easy maintenance/service.
Lance
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Lance,
OK, so... You open the battery compartment and you see the ANL fuses and breaker. The battery itself will be behind that board.
Laying on its side, the battery would be 21" wide, 10" high and 10" deep (in round numbers). The board with the fuses/breaker won't be 21" wide, so you still have access to the battery terminals and cables to the board.
Correct?
Don
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Volkemon: I agree the Garolite would be the better choice. Should have taken more time to look around before posting. But I still don't like the wood.
Lance: Took a look behind my battery today and don't see anything tapped off before the fuses.
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Hello Jim
Where does your levelers get power from. In you picture I only see 2 wires on the load side, one for the generator and the other probably supplying power to the 12 Volt system.
Lance
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Was surprised to see that as well!
Will have to take a look around to see where it splits out for both the HWH and LS hydraulic pumps.
Assume they are both pretty substantial loads.
Will take a look this weekend.
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Here is a picture of the battery installed with the new wiring. Jim haven't changed out the back plane yet. If you look at the left side of the picture you will see that there is a shunt for a Victron BMV-712 battery monitor that I still need to install. I am not sure if you are aware of the benefits of an 8D battery and why I opted to make the change. You can get a AGM 8D in 330 amp hour capacity and you can get a 8D drop in lithium-ion in 400 amp hour's. This is just about the only way to get a battery upgrade into those amp hour capacities, that you can fit into the area of the battery compartment, other than a custom lithium-ion. To get this battery to fit I extended the battery compartment 1 in towards the left and 6 in towards the right when facing the battery compartment. You can see the battery is placed on its side which is acceptable for an AGM or lithium-ion. In my case I cheeped out and bought the AGM. You can see that all the connections are accessible now, so its easy to check them and see the fuses and generator breaker.
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Nicely done Lance!
The 8D battery looks like an interesting option.
Will keep this in mind if we start thinking about boon-docking.
Gonna have to beef up the springs on the PS, that battery weights a few pounds! :lol
Haven't had a chance to look into my leveler or LS feed wiring yet.
Tomorrow I will be installing an EMS into my daughters new travel trailer.
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Nice clean wiring.
I am especially impressed with the "picture frame" touch.
One thing of possible concern is if you experience a catastrophic failure (small electrical fire), it may burn up that beautiful wood work and grow into an RV fire. Phoenix mounts all that hardware on a steel plate as shown here with my messy Phoenix factory version. It won't burn, and it might also act as a heat sink to some degree. I do have that plastic barrier on the ceiling of the compartment, another interesting observation. That would likely flame up too, though no direct contact.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3570/3841152473_62640fcdf9_z.jpg)
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Hello Ron
You are correct, the wood may burn if there is some kind of arcing say maybe from a loose connection etc. Jim brought up the idea of changing to a different type of material that is non-conductive. I had some 18 Gauge steel I could have used but I like the non-conductive idea. Anyhow here is the last picture of the finished product ( if I don't change the wood out). You can see I added terminal covers, lexan and the Victron BMV-712 battery monitor. I mounted it in the battery compartment, the reason is the bluetooth lets you sit in the coach and check everything you need to, one less thing to find a spot for inside.
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Don't take my comment too serious. Every good idea can be scrutinized as a bad idea. Just watch the news. Please understand that I was not implying "bad idea". Those fuses are designed to contain a failure, not light up like a Roman Candle.
Your over-all modification is excellent. If you were exceptionally concerned of a fire, consider mounting something like 3/8" cement board between the wood and your electricals. But that could be taking the precaution too far.
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Lance: how are you feeling about your Victron?
Thinking about springing for one soon.
Did it work out for you leaving it in the battery compartment and relying on the app to get info?
Also, got any update on the two AC experiments you mentioned?
Hope all is well, Jim G.
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Hello Jim
The Victron battery monitor is excellent. It works great and its one less piece of hardware I didn't need to mount inside. I have no problem connecting to it and see where I am at in the batteries state of charge. It also gives you an estimation on how long your battery will last at current discharge rate, very cool...
The A/C's I haven't really gotten out on the road to test, but have done some testing at home. I found that both changes have equally worked well. The straw is obliviously the easiest to complete. What I have noticed is that the A/C compressors don't cycle off before the room temperature is reached. The inside temperature was at 104 and I started the the rear AC and it pulled the coach down to 84, and that is as low as the AC could get the temp. Compressor stayed running and discharge air temp was in the low 40's. So the AC was doing all it was capable of to cool the coach. The actual outside temperature was 95 degrees. So for me keeping the compressors running and not cycling off helps. I think the change is well worth the effort. If I run both AC's the coach comes down to set temperature with no issues. I think time in real world application will tell the story.