Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: jim.godfrey on November 03, 2019, 05:47:18 pm
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Just winterized my 2552. (for now)
While I had no problem finding and operating the fresh water tank drain under the PS bed, I am amazed at how slowly it drained.
I'm talking 3 hours later and still not done. Was only half full. Just a little more than a trickle.
Even used a low pressure air nozzle to blow back into the tank thinking there is some debris blocking the outlet. No change.
Wondering if others have experienced similar slow drain. Seems like something is amiss to me.
Regards, Jim G.
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Jim----
Interested in responses. Mine drains slowly. Learned that while trying to "watch it drain" during my first winterizing experience back in February after I got home from delivery. This time I just opened it in the morning and forgot about it for a couple hours. When I was sure it was through I went back out--still trickling. It does finally quit though, and does drain completely. I think it's just the "nature of the beast", but I'll be interested in other's experience.
Mike
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My 2551 drains just fine, gravity flow but only about 5 minutes to drain.
On mine, the drain line is about 1/2" PVC from the tank, to the 1/4 turn valve to a 90 degree elbow to under the RV with about a 6 or 8 inch piece totally open on the end.
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John handles the tank draining so I don't have specific numbers but it's pretty quick with a noticeable flow. We have a 2013 so maybe they changed something. Check how much air is getting in to replace water out. I don't think our water inlet on the passenger side is air tight so replacement air flows right in. We do not have the spiffy valve on the driver's side to fill our tank so that might have to do with the difference. If you have the same outlet, it has to be air inflow.
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Interested in responses. Mine drains slowly. Learned that while trying to "watch it drain" during my first winterizing experience back in February after I got home from delivery. This time I just opened it in the morning and forgot about it for a couple hours. When I was sure it was through I went back out--still trickling. It does finally quit though, and does drain completely. I think it's just the "nature of the beast", but I'll be interested in other's experience.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Your "slow drain" situation sounds like there is tank-plastic debris that has accumulated at the drain and is restricting the flow of water. The debris is introduced when Phoenix drills holes into the new tank for the water fill, the vent, the water pump, and the gravity drain. From what I gather, RV manufactures in-general leave the tank plastic debris inside. I think Phoenix makes an effort to remove the debris, but is not anal in removing every little remnant. That debris finds it's way to where water exits and limits the flow of water.
How to remove the debris is another story. I never had to so I have no personal experience doing so. I assume the worst case scenario is to remove the fresh water tank, then shack the debris to the biggest opening. But pending the access to your drain, just maybe you could remove part of the drain valve, get a finger or instrument in there, and remove the blockage.
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Do you have a few faucets valves open to vent the tank while draining?
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Your "slow drain" situation sounds like there is tank-plastic debris that has accumulated at the drain and is restricting the flow of water. The debris is introduced when Phoenix drills holes into the new tank for the water fill, the vent, the water pump, and the gravity drain. From what I gather, RV manufactures in-general leave the tank plastic debris inside. I think Phoenix makes an effort to remove the debris, but is not anal in removing every little remnant. That debris finds it's way to where water exits and limits the flow of water.
How to remove the debris is another story. I never had to so I have no personal experience doing so. I assume the worst case scenario is to remove the fresh water tank, then shack the debris to the biggest opening. But pending the access to your drain, just maybe you could remove part of the drain valve, get a finger or instrument in there, and remove the blockage.
Thanks Ron. I considered that, since I've seen the references to "tank debris" in previous forum posts. I note that, in his initial post, Jim Godfrey employed low-pressure air back up through the tank drain to try to deal with that possibility--to no avail. Of course, the type of debris you reference could easily enter and then lodge in the drain outlet, and it would probably take a pretty good blast of air to move it. The drain piping is ample size to support a healthy flow, so the most likely causes of low flow are either a restriction or venting issue. I didn't examine things to determine how the tank is vented, but the system works great for even long-term water flows in actual usage--so all evidence is that the tank venting is fine. Tarnold, I did have some faucets open to see if that affected things, but with the pump in line and water still in that portion of the system wouldn't expect to get much venting through that source. Next time I have water in the tank, I will open the direct-fill connection with drain going to allow air directly to the tank to double-check venting issues--but I don't think venting is the issue. I suspect Ron is correct about a restriction in the drain. Fortunately, this isn't any type of show-stopper, and only surfaces on the infrequent occasion when you want to drain the tank. As Jim noted in his initial post, it probably falls more into the category of an irritation rather than a significant problem.
Thanks, Mike
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Don’t know if you want to go to something like the deck plate shown in the Amazon link below but I installed and used it on a previous camper fresh water tank. I found it very useful in providing access for cleaning and disinfecting the FW tank. At least once a year when draining for winterizing it allowed for completely cleaning and drying the tank. It also allowed wiping the interior with a bleach solution prior to closing it back up for winter. On the previous camper the plate when screwed back in was water tight with no leak issues.
I have not done this deck plate installation yet on our PC but see no real difference in the camping trailer vs. the PC other than the PC tank is somewhat larger and provides for easier access. Both tanks were similarly constructed from white PE plastic.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AZ577/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AZ577/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
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Hi Jim, I had a thread a while back about the difficulty I have with draining my 2014, 2350. I don't have the 1/4 turn valve others have, simply 3 low point drains next to each other in storage with one of them directly connected to outlet at bottom of tank so this must be their idea of a drain. Water would only trickle out and I couldn't drain the tank even when left open and all faucets, etc left open overnight. Different animal but perhaps you'll benefit from my discovery that if I turn the pump on with drain open I can empty the tank in less than 15 minutes.
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.....I didn't examine things to determine how the tank is vented.....
I don't know if Phoenix uses the same ventilation method as back in 2007, but our tank vent is maybe 1/2" round and screen-covered, located behind the locked door with the filler pipe. Water initially ejects from it when filling up our tank to over-flowing. If you have that screen but suspect it is not venting, check the vent tube for a kink.
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Appreciate the replies on this issue.
It is pretty much just a minor annoyance and curiosity for me as I usually only drain the tank once a year.
It does seem there is some debris in there as the piping is certainly sized to empty more quickly.
I'll try blowing it out again with more pressure next time it gets filled.
Pretty sure the vent is working because even with a little over half a tank I still get splashes of water coming out the vent all over the side of my rig. >(
Also the slow drain was from the start so no chance to build vacuum.
Hmmm, wonder if the fact that water comes out the vent even with only a 1/2 tank indicates that the pickup tube for the vent in the tank is below the water line.
And if so would that make it a less efficient vent? Maybe next time there is water in the tank I'll try blowing air into the vent to see if I hear bubbles.
If this is the case maybe the tank was in a slight negative pressure before I started.
Probably not the cause of the slow drain because it was a very consistent slow drain and when I blew air up into the tank it should have relieved at least some of the vacuum.
Oh well fun to think about.
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Jim,
Are you able to lift up the bed platform and examine the tank? I wonder if many of your questions would be answered through an inspection.
BTW: I like fandj's idea of having a well-sealed removal top cap to get inside the fresh water tank. If we had trouble with debris or other contamination, I would consider installing one.
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Pretty sure the vent is working because even with a little over half a tank I still get splashes of water coming out the vent all over the side of my rig. >(
Also the slow drain was from the start so no chance to build vacuum.
Hmmm, wonder if the fact that water comes out the vent even with only a 1/2 tank indicates that the pickup tube for the vent in the tank is below the water line.
If the vent is below the waterline, it should be venting water when filling above that point. So if it vents air until the tank is full, thats not the issue.
FWIW... I worked on a pest control rig that had a 500 gallon tank with a vent on the top right. Full or empty, you would get a bit of water puffing out around turns. But WOW... 1/2 full, that thing would spurt water like a whale in heat. roflol Got called in by other motorists. We ended up putting an 'L' inside to stop the ram effect.
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Our 2018 also drains slowly, but based on the size of the line, it is draining as fast as it can. A way to drain the tank quicker is to open the two low point drains and turn on the water pump. When the pump starts sucking air, then let the tank drain do the rest.
Gary
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Hello It is slow for me as well, but I know on my 2552 if I open the low point drains on the freshwater system below the drawers in the galley and turn the water pump on I can have the tank pumped down in about 5 minutes. I then turn off the pump and open the tank drain valve and allow what water is left to run out. I have however had to replace the low water drain valves as they leaked. I tried changing out the o-rings but no joy, so I just went to HomeDepot and bought some shakbite 1/2 brass ball valves, then made up two rigid copper 90 degree elbows to run through the floor for the drain. I have always had good luck with the sharkbite valves and they are so easy to install. Just cut the pex pipe and slide on the new valves. Works better than new, and makes the process quick, so I flush my freshwater tank on a regular interval.
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Our 2007 fresh water tank drain is extremely basic. Our water jug has the same basic drain. When draining, I have to position the valve just right for fast draining.
The valve is identical to this one, but it includes a clear extension hose to pass through the floor.
(https://go-armynavy.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/3623.jpg)
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All good info folks, Thank You!
Ron: The valve on my 2552 is a chrome 1/4 turn ball valve. Looks like maybe a 3/8" plastic line.
I also like the idea of an access cover but that type of tinkering will have to wait till spring. She's all winterized now and will be covered soon. :beg
May open it up for a winter get away trip some time after the holidays.
This work stuff really cramps our style. pyho
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Jim what are you using for a cover for your 2552. I have the same problem with the slow drain and I am having it checked out at Campers Inn because I thought the valve may be broken. When we first took delivery in August it was leaking and they tightened it so I was thinking they turned it so hard they broke it.
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Ron: The valve on my 2552 is a chrome 1/4 turn ball valve. Looks like maybe a 3/8" plastic line.
It sounds like Phoenix upgraded that drain valve over the years.
Our cheap water jug valve continues to do a very good job, but some day if I need to replace it, I will surely consider a quality ball valve, and maybe the 6" deck plate as well.
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Frank: I ordered this cover a couple of weeks ago: https://www.nationalrvcovers.com/goldline-rv-covers/Class--B--RV/28.html
It is supposed to have shipped today so have not seen it yet.
Looked like a little higher quality than the Adco and Classic covers I have used in the past for my 5th wheel without the super high cost of the CalMark Sunbrella cover. (>$1K)
Will update when I receive it and get a chance to try it on for size.
Regards, Jim G.
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Here is why my valve is draining slowly. Just pulled it apart, and the valve is not a full flow valve so it has a restriction that trapped the millings from the water tank that never got cleaned out. I figured I was so far into the tank that I would change the valve to a full flow valve and check my system for leaks and I am glad I did. On the drivers side; the shore water connection under the bed behind the access panel was leaking which only required tightening by hand, looked like it had dripped for awhile. Under the passenger side bed I found that the large diameter fill line and vent line were leaking at the bulkhead fittings. I purposely overfilled the tank to see if they leaked and they did. So I just went ahead and replaced the hoses. The reason for replacing the large fill hose was because I felt it leaked because it was corrugated, it said on the hose "smooth bore" but it wasn't. I went to Goodyear Rubber Products and picked up the hose and some really cool new hose clamps, they are called smart seal clamps and these were for the fill line. The smart seal clamps weren't available for the smaller 3/8" line so I bought some shielded clamps. I changed the small line because it got a little messed up when I removed it from the barb fitting, plus I already had that on-hand. For the drain valve I went with CPVC which I felt was a good replacement plus full flow. I made sure that I kept a flexible hose between the valve and tank so that it wouldn't be rigidly mounted to the tank which might break the tank at the fitting. I imagine that is why PC does the same thing. The good news is that it drains like a horse peeing on a flat rock, drained in less that 5 minutes from completely full.
I have a question maybe someone can answer, I am including pictures of a pex fitting that seals to the pump and is also used in several other locations. Can anyone tell me where I can buy a couple of seals and if there is a specific name for the seal?
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I am going to take a huge *GUESS* and say that extra fitting was used with the Anderson 4 way valve and isn't needed for the 3 way valve. And I believe 2017 was when they switched. So your unit was plumbed for the 4 way and that piece wasn't needed anymore.
?
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Engineerlt: I didn't get as deeply into it as you did. (Thanks for the pics and explanation)
But I did have a chance this past weekend to blow some compressed air into my fresh water tank which still had an inch of water in it after sitting with the valve open all week!
I put the air into the gravity fill line(not too tight a seal) and put my thumb over the air vent to create some pressure in the tank.
It worked! On the ground under the drain I found a small bunch of shavings that got pushed through and the tank starting draining normally.
Sorry no clue on your seal question, but when in doubt, check McMaster.
One other question I came up with while looking at the plumbing under PS bed: there is a section of tubing that goes from the fresh tank to the pump, probably by way of the select-a-valve.
Wondering if or how that water line gets drained during the winterization process. Only way I could imagine that getting emptied would be to run the pump in the city position till it runs dry and then I can't imagine any way to get antifreeze into it short of putting it in the fresh tank which I would never do.
Had the same setup on my old fifth wheel, never did anything about it and never had a problem.
Maybe it is made of flexible tubing that is less prone to splitting due to ice?
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Nice work there EngineerIt! That is a lesson for the community.
Regarding the PEX to pump seal, I wish I had your answer.
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Where is the water pump located on the 2552? :help
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The water pump is located just aft of the water tank directly inboard of the gas heater/furnace.
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I have the same problems on my 2017 PC2350 with filling and draining. Question - when doing both or either, does the dial in the macerator need to be turned toward tank?
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Hello CJK
I believe the selector valve needs to turned to the tank position for filling, for draining it doesn't matter. I also learned that on my 2017 the driver side vent was not connected, so this means that the only overflow vent I have is the one on the passenger side. So if you overflow your tank like I have you will end-up pressurizing your tank and could end-up rupturing your tank. The rule of thumb with a tank with square corners is 3 psi will distort the tank wall's and 5 psi will rupture the tank. This usually applies to steel tanks but I am sure that the plastic tank can't take full city water pressure. So if you are filling your water tank and are forgetful like I am, its worth opening the fill cap on the passenger side to help prevent over pressurizing the water tank, along with the small plumbed in vent on the passenger side. Sorry I know you didn't ask just thought I would put in my 2 cents on filling the water tank. Also on the drivers side the place where the vent should be connected was open to the interior of the coach so I filled the vent hole with some silicone just to help keep out the bugs etc.
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Just winterized my 2552. (for now)
While I had no problem finding and operating the fresh water tank drain under the PS bed, I am amazed at how slowly it drained.
I'm talking 3 hours later and still not done. Was only half full. Just a little more than a trickle.
Even used a low pressure air nozzle to blow back into the tank thinking there is some debris blocking the outlet. No change.
Wondering if others have experienced similar slow drain. Seems like something is amiss to me.
Regards, Jim G.
Today with the approval of PC Campers Inn is installing a well-sealed removal top cap to get inside the fresh water tank to clean out the plastic pieces inside of my tank, I have not been able to drain the fresh water through the drain since I have had my 2552.
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Hello
So they are installing a access into the top of your water tank. I see an issue with this idea; when you are filling your fresh water tank and accidentally forget and over fill the tank it is likely to leak from the access. The way the tank is currently without an access bows outward when overfilled due to pressure as the vent line is considerably undersized for the volume of water entering. When the tank starts to distort due to the increase in internal pressure the access will not expand at the same rate and will leak. I have been in the marine industry for 38 years and its not a good idea to try and add an access to a plastic tank. It would be better if they just pulled the fittings out and looked inside the tank and flushed it out.
I would suggest if they do install this access that when filling you ensure that the boondocking water fill cap on the passenger side is removed to prevent a build-up of pressure on the water tank if you happen to overfill it.
Just a thought and please attach a picture of the new access, curious to see what they actually install.
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EngineerLT my tank was full of plastic chips and sawdust they showed me a photo of the inside. This is a temporary fix and the will replace the tank later when it's off season. Thank you for the tip to open the PS water fill cap to relieve the pressure in the tank. I do not fill it more than half way most of the time.