Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grandpa17 on October 05, 2019, 11:29:03 am
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Hello everyone. This is my first post. I tried introducing myself in the Introduce Yourself section, but apparently that section in inactive. We are the happy owners of a 2020, 2351D which we picked up a couple weeks ago. This unit is out tenth RV and ninth motorhome. We have owned RV's since the early '70's and have owned everything from a 40' diesel pusher to a class-C and a class-B+ on the sprinter chassis and everything in-between, including two Super-C units on the Freightliner M2 chassis. As you can imagine over our 46 years of owning motorhomes we have had a lot of different experiences with the different units.
As a new PC owner I look forward to contributing to the discussions in this forum.
With our extensive background I thought it would be useful to share my initial impressions of the Phoenix Cruiser. We had recently sold a Super-C unit that we were very happy with, but I was tired of driving a 40' motorhome and towing a Jeep behind it. My goal now was to find a quality built Class-B+. Since we no longer planned to spend months at time in the RV my main goal was to be as compact as possible, but still be livable for a few days at a time. Additionally my main two criteria are heavy-duty and high quality. After searching for months with the high-volume manufacturers and not finding anything I could be happy with, primarily due to poor workmanship, I decided to look into the low-volume brands that seemed to have good reputations. After finding Phoenix Cruiser and reading many positive things about it as well as really liking the factory-direct sales model (and since we live in Indiana) I decided to schedule a visit to the factory. Unfortunately, I ran into the problem that some people have mentioned... I couldn't get hold of anyone! After three emails and two phones calls to the factory I was about to give up on PC. Fortunately I decided to give it one more try and finally someone answered the phone. That person forwarded me to Bob White who was at the Hersey show at the time. Although I got his voice mail, he returned my call very quickly. From there on the process went very smoothly and hopefully they are getting the issue of being hard to reach worked out.
So what are my initial impressions? I am very impressed with the unit! Before purchasing a new unit I do a lot of research looking for actual user experiences with the company. I also give the potential unit a very thorough going over, including a test drive, while on the lot. After purchasing the unit and getting it home I then do my own very thorough PDI (Post Delivery Inspection). Having done all of that with the Phoenix Cruiser I can say that I am very impressed with the design of the unit as well as the workmanship and the attention to detail. Additionally I can say that this unit was by far the cleanest, inside and out, of any we have ever purchased. I can say unequivocally that it is the best workmanship of any unit we have owned. (Sadly the absolute worst unit we owned was also the most expensive unit!)
We are looking forward to our first trip in it soon.
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Welcome to the PC forum and PC ownership. We have had our 2551 for a year and love it. I agree that the quality is outstanding and everything’s works and works well! Love your color choice and model. Many happy travels. Your experience will be a big asset on this forum.
Ron S
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Grandpa17: Congratulations on your new 2351D! I hope you have many happy miles in it.
I'm glad you gave it one last shot and finally reached Bob.
I've been working with PC since May ordering my rig and since that time, Bob is the third Campers Inn PC Factory Rep I have dealt with.
So far he has been the most responsive by far.
My wife and I are driving out to Elkhart hoping for a Wednesday pickup.
Maybe you saw our unit, it is the Nightscape with Burgundy 2552.
Curious about your PDI experience with the PC rep?
Did you find anything that needed to be fixed before you took it home?
Did you spend a night at the PC factory as others have done?
Good luck with your new RV and see you around the forum!
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Jim,
Yes I believe I did see your unit and it’s beautiful! I’m sure you’ll be very happy when you see it.
Bob was juggling another pickup that got in a day early from California, so I spent all of 15 minutes with him going over it with me - which was fine in my case. He would have taken more time with me if I had wanted it. We’re only 1 1/2 hours from the factory so there was no need to spend the night. I was impressed with how clean it was and Bob assured me their PDI guy has an extensive check list that every least thing was tested to proper function. In my own post delivery inspection I haven’t found anything even questionable.
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Thanks Ron S. Looking forward to being a part of the PC family.
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Congrats Grandpa17! Welcome to the family of the Phoenix Cruiser.
We bought our PC new in 2007 and love it more with each passing year. It is RV #2 for us. We owned #1 for 24 years. So I surely do not have the personal experience on other brands like you. As time passes for you, please be candid on everything you find yourself comparing, the better than's, and the worse than's.
Do you also have the slide out on the driver side? Did you get the dinette or the recliner-sofa with pantry on that side?
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Ron,
I’ll be happy to continue to report back from time to time. So far I am very impressed with the quality and workmanship. One of the things that really impressed me was taking the tour of the facility. It was obvious that the people were very skilled at their jobs and more focused on doing things right rather than doing things fast.
We have the drivers side slide out with the recliner sofa with pantry. This is our first unit to not have a dinette. I’m sure we’ll miss not having one, but we opted for the comfort of the seats.
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Most people opt for the comfy seating rather than the dinette.
Our first rig, the one we owned for 24 years SEEN HERE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/albums/72157621472936441), the over-head bed was way too confining for us adults. But that confined space was ideal for our kids. We turned the extra wide dinette into a double bed and kept it that way for us during our trips. As a result we missed not having a dinette, so much that having a dinette setup 100% of the time was one of our highest priorities for rig #2.
Considering just the two of us turning 49 years of age at the time, here were our top 3 critical points at the time when we stumbled on a Phoenix Cruiser 2350 at an area indoor RV show in January 2007.
- Absolutely MUST fit inside our garage (10 foot tall door, 25 feet deep)
- Absolutely MUST have a dinette that we would leave setup that way
(the floor model had a couch in a slide out but the brochure's floorplan also showed a no-slide dinette)
- Absolutely MUST have a permanent bed to sleep together (not separately in twin beds)
Everything else was negotiable to some degree.
There are so many great features that came with our PC, but pointing out one specific bonus for us is having the 3rd seat by the main entry door. The rig originally came with an uncomfortable barrel chair there, but we switched it out for a 3rd matching captain seat. Pictures of both seats can be SEEN HERE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/albums/72157617468317295). We often use the front dinette bench for an ottoman. So one of us sits in great comfort while the other sits at the dinette, most often done while watching a movie. If not watching something on the main TV, we usually sit across from each other at the dinette. It's our favorite hang out place. We of coarse eat together that way, but also play games and spread out park maps and such on the table.
The original cloth seat cushions were thicker but with a fluffy generic foam that were not comfortable at all. Years later we got upgraded vinyl-covered cushions with much more dense main foam with a top-coat of memory foam from Phoenix which made a huge improvement in our dinette comfort.
Our plan is to keep our PC until we are too old and dangerous driving it. But if our lives change for whatever the reason, and another rig is planned, a dinette setup all the time will surely remain our top priority. Hopefully you won't miss having one so much that another change needs to take place for you.
There are a few 2351 and 2552 owners here who opted for the dinette in various configurations
- dinette in a slide out, eliminating the pantry
- dinette and pantry without a slide out
- dinette and NO pantry without a slide out (gains a bigger dinette table and more leg room)
The last one intrigues me.
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Ron,
All great information. Thanks for taking the time to write that up. I found your information prior to buying ours and it was extremely helpful in our decision to purchase a PC. Great photos too. Congratulations on having your first motorhome for 24 years and now your second one for approx. 12 years. You have saved a ton of money by doing that and it's good to know that they can actually hold up that long. It has always surprised us that so many people trade RV's every few years, with us being one of them. Our reasons for trading on average about every 4-5 years have been for a myriad of reasons. Sometimes it was to frankly get rid of a piece of crap! Mostly it was that over the years our needs have often changed from spending 3-4 months in an RV and wanting something roomy to using it only for getting form point A to point B and wanting something compact. That's where we are today. We have come off of a 39' super-C that we would spend 3-4 months in each winter and which we really enjoyed, but now we want something compact mostly for getting from point A to point B and only spending a night or two in it while driving to our destination. I agree with you though, if we were going to spend a lot of time living in it we would want a dinette. We opted for the 2351D strictly to get the queen bed. We haven't slept in a full bed in 46 years!
I'm impressed with all the modifications you have made to your unit and how well it is holding up. On some of the roads in the country it's a wonder the "home" part of the motorhome doesn't shake itself apart! What has your long-term experience been with the 3rd party appliances?
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GRANDPA17,
How does you Dbl slide unit drive on the e450 and did you upgrade any suspension components? Agree with your assessment of PC attention to detail and would add that their customer service is second to none!
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It drives very nice. Our unit has the Liquid Spring suspension and the Safe T steering damper and stock shocks. It feels well balanced on the road. The OCCC rating, at least according to the door sticker, is 2160 lbs so it has plenty of load capacity.
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Did you order the unit as a stock 25 foot or did you add the extension cabinets in the rear coach? Your unit sure looks nice!
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Did you order the unit as a stock 25 foot or did you add the extension cabinets in the rear coach? Your unit sure looks nice!
In our case we didn't order the unit. After researching class-B's for several months (we have owned two before) I decided to take a look at the PC units. While looking at their floor plans my wife and I decided that the 2351D would best suit our needs. We were ready to buy as soon as we found the right unit and as luck would have it PC had two 2351D units in stock. We didn't want to wait for a new custom ordered unit so we chose between the two that they had and chose the one we have mostly because it had the Liquid Spring suspension.
Looking at the build sheet I don't see extension cabinets listed, but our unit does have cabinets at the rear beside the bed. They are about one foot deep.
Just as a note, our unit is pretty much fully loaded, solar panels, leveling jacks, liquid springs, full body paint, etc. The only thing we would have done differently is to not order the Euro Chair for $890. We removed it to gain the extra floor space. We also removed the table. I'm glad they didn't put the post supports in the floor, but the table is just too much trouble to store and set up. I am sold on the luxury vinyl plank flooring. It is really nice.
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Gorgeous unit, the one I'd upgrade to if given the chance. Quick suggestion is to have Doug install 2 of the Lagun aircraft tables, you'll NEVER miss your table!
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Good suggestion. I’m considering the Lagun tables, just not sure if we even want them. I’m in the mood to keep everything as simple as possible and I have a feeling even those would feel like they’re in the way at times.
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Two questions,
Could you give us the exact length of your unit, and what is your eating arrangement...we are considering ordering with the dinette.
You guys were sure lucky nobody grabbed your gorgeous rig!
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It drives very nice. Our unit has the Liquid Spring suspension and the Safe T steering damper and stock shocks. It feels well balanced on the road. The OCCC rating, at least according to the door sticker, is 2160 lbs so it has plenty of load capacity.
Be careful with the yellow sticker OCCC rating. It does not include your liquid springs, solar components, levelers or any options. I looked at a 2910T and 2910D sticker at the factory and was quite surprised they were both the same capacity even though the 2910T had 3 slides versus the 2910Ds 2 slides. Weighing the unit will allow you to determine capacity front and back and allow you to accurately set tire pressures.
I agree you have a sweet unit.
Ron S
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Thanks Ron S. Yes, I have wondered about the accuracy of it. It seems very irresponsible to me to print a generic OCCC sticker rather than one specific to each unit “as configured”, but it sounds like the stickers may be a generic rating. If that’s the case, apparently the government requires the yellow sticker but manufacturers take a lot of liberty with it. It has always amazed me how many RV manufacturers will ship units already at or just under the maximum load capacities and yet provide a lot of storage space.
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Two questions,
Could you give us the exact length of your unit, and what is your eating arrangement...we are considering ordering with the dinette.
You guys were sure lucky nobody grabbed your gorgeous rig!
Yea I feel lucky being able to grab it. I’m not really sure why they had one in stock. Measuring it with a tape measure it looks to be right at 26’ (+/- and inch or two). With this unit we won’t be living in it more than 2-3 days at a time and at our age we’re into reclining... For us it’s mostly a point to point vehicle to visit our 17 grandchildren spread around the country! So we’ll just eat off our laps or at a picnic table. I do think the Lagun tables could be a good option to get the best of both, unless playing cards or board games is a high priority. I’ll post a few photos shortly to give some other insights into this floor plan.
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Two questions,
Could you give us the exact length of your unit, and what is your eating arrangement...we are considering ordering with the dinette.
You guys were sure lucky nobody grabbed your gorgeous rig!
Yea I feel lucky being able to grab it. I’m not really sure why they had one in stock. Measuring it with a tape measure it looks to be right at 26’ (+/- and inch or two). With this unit we won’t be living in it more than 2-3 days at a time and at our age we’re into reclining... For us it’s mostly a point to point vehicle to visit our 17 grandchildren spread around the country! So we’ll just eat off our laps or at a picnic table. I do think the Lagun tables could be a good option to get the best of both, unless playing cards or board games is a high priority. I’ll post a few photos shortly to give some other insights into this floor plan.
Good suggestion. I’m considering the Lagun tables, just not sure if we even want them. I’m in the mood to keep everything as simple as possible and I have a feeling even those would feel like they’re in the way at times.
Pictures are always great and thanks for the measurements!
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For anyone considering a 2351D here are a few photos that may help in the decision...
I was pleasantly surprised with the amount of exterior storage. I like to have a fairly complete set of tools with me but also do not like to have to dig a tool box out to open it. I found that a 2-drawer Dewalt stack-able box fit the space just perfect.
As I noted earlier we removed the Euro chair and that space work well for a neat silicone dog feeder that I found on Amazon. The nice thing about the feeder is that it collapses when not in use, but also tends to suction to the floor and stay put (as long as the floor is free of dust).
Since the chairs don't have leg rests we use inexpensive foot stools which provide additional storage. They will collapse for storage.
One consideration on dinette vs chairs, since the front TV swivels out a good distance it is very comfortable viewing for both people in the chairs. We enjoy watching a TV series or movie each evening. Also, the surround sound IMO is well worth it.
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Grampa17: Are you sure your recliners don't have built in footrests?
All that I have seen do have them built in. There is a latch behind the little flap that is used to release them.
They are a bit of a contraption but we have found them to be pretty comfortable as footrests by extending them fully then after raising the padded section.
I release the latch again so it can be moved closer to the sofa.
See this video with instructions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYVxpEpmBvk
I too have been pleasantly surprised by the available storage on my new PC.
Happy trails!
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Grandpa17: Wondering what position your Liquid Springs were in when you took the picture in the first post on this thread.
I find that the normal driving height on my 2552 with LS seems a bit high in the back to me.
The lowered position on mine looks more level like the height in your picture.
Thanks. Jim G.
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Grandpa17---
Jim's right. Think you'll find the extendable footrests under your recliners. Of course the extra storage provided by your current footstools might be preferable for you, but it's nice to have the free floor space afforded by the extendable rests when they're not in use. They also afford extra sleeping space when extended with the recliners fully down if needed.
All the best, Mike
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Grampa17: Are you sure your recliners don't have built in footrests?
All that I have seen do have them built in. There is a latch behind the little flap that is used to release them.
They are a bit of a contraption but we have found them to be pretty comfortable as footrests by extending them fully then after raising the padded section.
I release the latch again so it can be moved closer to the sofa.
See this video with instructions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYVxpEpmBvk
I too have been pleasantly surprised by the available storage on my new PC.
Happy trails!
Yes, our seats have the pullout extensions. My understanding is that they are designed more for making them into beds, but can be used for foot rests. We just find these footstools more convenient to use for propping our feet up, plus they make nice additional seats, nice storage, and can be used with the slide in...
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Grandpa17---
Jim's right. Think you'll find the extendable footrests under your recliners. Of course the extra storage provided by your current footstools might be preferable for you, but it's nice to have the free floor space afforded by the extendable rests when they're not in use. They also afford extra sleeping space when extended with the recliners fully down if needed.
All the best, Mike
Without the euro chair we put one of the stools there and one beside the bed when not in use. We’ve found them to be really handy to store things in and much more convenient than pulling the chair extensions out. If a person wants them completely out of the way they collapse down to about 3” high. The seat extensions will be very nice if we need extra sleeping space.
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Grandpa17: Wondering what position your Liquid Springs were in when you took the picture in the first post on this thread.
I find that the normal driving height on my 2552 with LS seems a bit high in the back to me.
The lowered position on mine looks more level like the height in your picture.
Thanks. Jim G.
They were in the normal position. So far I have kept them in that position. The ground clearance on the PC’s with or w/o LS is one of the things that attracted me to them. A lot of the class-b+’s, especially on the Sprinter chassis don’t have much clearance in back. We’ve owned two sprinter b+’s (Leisure Travel Van and Winnebago View) and had some difficulty with slightly steep approach angles.
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Grandpa, what timely information. We are on the brink of ordering a 2315D and you info has answered many questions, especially the flooring. Very helpful.
Thank you.
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Grandpa, what timely information. We are on the brink of ordering a 2315D and you info has answered many questions, especially the flooring. Very helpful.
Thank you.
I’m glad to hear that. I think you will be very pleased with it. We are on our first trip in it and I’ll post a few more of my observations of this PC and this floor plan,..
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A little late posting this, but for those of you wanting some feedback on the 2351D, here are my thoughts after taking a couple trips in it...
First of all, and with this being the Thanksgiving season, I am VERY thankful that I didn't purchase the large-company unit that I had planned on buying! The PC 2351D is so much better built and so much more practical.
Mostly by happenstance we were fortunate to contact PC just when they had a couple 2351D units in stock. One fully loaded and one more basic. Again I am very thankful we chose the loaded unit. We don't often boondock, but on our first trip to a state park the only site they had left was primitive, so we were without hookups for 3 days. Having the solar panels was great. Even though this floorplan has some of the smallest tanks, we made it for 3 days just fine.
Also, so thankful that we have the Liquid Springs. Literally every time we were driving through rough patches my wife would say, can you imagine what it would be like in our last unit?? (Our last coach was a super C on a Freightliner M2 chassis.) Before this unit I was unfamiliar with Liquid Springs, but I am totally and completely sold on them now. I wouldn't own a coach without them.
As far as the floorplan, we are very happy with it. The unit I almost purchased had a Murphy bed (which we've had a unit with a MB in it before) and while it's a neat idea the disadvantage is that your coach is either a living room or a bedroom. If one wants to sit and one wants to lay down, you can't - unless you turn the passenger seat around, but then you can't watch TV, or unless you sit up in bed - which I don't like to do...
As noted earlier, we removed the Euro chair. We didn't find it that comfortable and it takes up a lot of space. Having it out of there free's up a lot of useful space.
The mattress is waaay too firm for us, but since it's split sideways and two different thicknesses it will be difficult to replace. I found a 2" memory foam topper with a zippered shell on it which works out reasonably well. Some day I'd like to try to have a custom memory foam mattress made. Or better yet, it would be great if PC had it as an option. ;-)
The 2351D has a Truma Combi LP gas furnace with supplementary water heating. I was a little skeptical of how well it would work, but so far I am very impressed with it. The coldest weather we have been in so far was in the mid 20's, but it kept us toasty warm. It's extremely quiet too. Even on high it's barely noticeable. The controller for it is very nice and user friendly. The only suggestion I would make to PC is to locate the controller on the adjacent wall of the bathroom. Where they have it located it is covered up and inaccessible when the drivers side slide in in.
I continue to be impressed with the fit and finish of the PC. This is our ninth motorhome and so far I consider it the best built of all of them. The unit I almost bought this time around was on a sprinter chassis. We have had two previous units based on that chassis and I am a fan of them. This being our first Ford chassis I have to say I am very pleased with the chassis. A big advantage of the Ford is it's wider wheel base. That, along with it's lower profile and the liquid springs makes it feel noticeably more solid on the road.
I would also say that the surround sound system is well worth it. Switching form TV speakers to surround sound is night and day. What we did in one of our units was buy a sound bar and mount it below the TV. If a person didn't want to spring for the factory surround sound a sound bar is still a big improvement over the TV speakers.
The leveling jack are also worth the cost in my book. It's nice to just pull in and be setup in less than 5 minutes. I'm also very happy with the Sanicon system. I still use rubber gloves but it's such a clean system compared to the stinky slinky!
We haven't had it in really hot weather yet, but so far absorption style refrigerator it looks like it's going to have enough cooling capacity for really warm weather. I hope so at least. We've had a couple of smaller coaches with absorption refrigerators that wouldn't stay cool enough in hot weather. I'd love to hear any PC experiences with really hot weather...
As far as nit's I have to stretch a little to find any. I'm still getting used to the light switches being on the lights instead of on the wall, but not a big deal. The bathroom gets cold. It would be really nice to have a heat duct in the bathroom. I bought a small space heater to try. I much prefer ducted AC, but given the size of the coach the single AC unit seems to have plenty of capacity. Although we haven't had to use it much I agree with most people that the AC is on the noisy side. Otherwise, I can't really think of anything to criticize...
One small issue I'm having is steering alignment. When we test drove the unit the alignment seemed off with it pulling slightly left. Before taking delivery they ran it down to the alignment shop and had it checked. When I took delivery the alignment seemed slightly better, but still not perfect. I decided to go ahead and take it and see how it did on a trip. Throughout the trip it continued to pull slightly left. Researching it a little, I decided it could be the Safe T steering control causing it to pull left so I decided to see if I could adjust it better. After a couple of tries I have eliminated most of the pulling to one side or the other, but the steering wheel is still off-center a bit when driving straight - so I'm not sure if I should have the alignment checked again? Maybe someone will have some advice for me here...
My message to PC... Whatever you do DON'T ever slack off on your quality standards!! Great looks and features might sell the fist unit, but quality is what brings customers back for a second unit!! In all but one of the units we have owned, I would not have bought a second unit from that brand. So far at least, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a second PC! (In fact while picking up our unit I was talking to a couple that had driven to PC from California. They had just sold one of the same class B+ units that we have owned previously. (That brand is generally considered a good brand, and I have to say we had a very good experience with ours) She said they were having too many issues with it, it was too hard to find a dealer to service the chassis and so they decided that PC had better quality and Ford was much easier to get serviced.
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Grandpa
Do you know how much added weight the liquid springs add to the rear end, if any? I have contacted LS twice and have not got a reply. I know it doesn’t increase capacity of the rear axle. From you and others LS seem to be well worth the price.
Ron S
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I feel the greater matter at hand for model 2351D with LS, would be the actual weight placed on the tires because it's shorter length with good axle ratio, it's curb weight should not push the limit of the E450 chassis like the longest PCs do.
Grandpa17,
Get your rig weighed at a truck stop during your next trip (front and rear axles independently) then use those numbers to determine what your tire PSI should be. With Liquid Springs, if your actual load on the rear axle exceeds the rating of the tires, then consider those higher-load "E"-rated tires. I believe each tire of that type can handle 600 pounds extra. But don't get them unnecessarily because they likely yield a rougher ride.
If your front tires are not over-loaded, you can safely maintain standard E-rated tires up front, while replacing your rear tires with higher-rated E-rated ones.
It seems that if the Liquid Spring system is heavier than the standard suspension, it would not reduce the GVWR. It is a suspension system that the frame rests on. I think it's more about what the tires can handle. There is the matter of the load on the rear axle itself, but I would be very surprised it is of concern.
I am surely not an authority on truck suspensions, so keep that in-mind when reading my input.
Ron Dittmer
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When I was looking for a PC, I searched for about 6 months to find the perfect one. I wanted one that was blue, average miles on a Ford chassis, twin beds, in good condition. I found a 2006 2551 only 70 miles from my house. It was in excellent condition
and drives like a dream. These RV'S are built with quality. I believe this is the best quality rv for the money. I will never buy a different brand again. Perfect size for any rv park, only 26 feet long.
Good luck with yours, you will have a great time with it.
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I found a 2006 2551 only 70 miles from my house. It was in excellent condition and drives like a dream.
Good for you!
If you have the E350 chassis, there is one thing you will want to check for. That is if it has a rear stabilizer bar. The E450 always came with one, the E350 did not prior to the 2008 model year chassis. That was a Ford deficiency, not a Phoenix deficiency. Adding a heavy duty rear stabilizer bar to an E350 had lacked a standard bar, will do wonders on curvy mountain and canyon byways. Upgrade your front stabilizer at the same time and you will have a "Wow" improvement.