Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: sailors35 on March 04, 2019, 12:18:20 pm
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Considering replacing the house batts with AGM. Is the converter a 3 stage? Always understand this was pretty much a necessity for AGM, but finding conflicting info on Internet, surprise! Any advice or experience appreciaated.
Mike
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I purchased a 2019 2552 that was built for the PA RV Convention. It has 2 6v AGM batteries and a Progressive Dynamics Inc Model PD4500 "Power Control Center" that I think is PC standard. The control center is an all in one box with breakers, fuses, and converter built in. When I checked to see if the converter was properly programmed for the AGM batteries I was surprised to find that it is not programable. The converter specified output voltages (Boost Mode, Normal Mode, and Storage Mode) are not the same as the battery manufacture (Trojan) recommends.
I called Progressive Dynamics and they told me this converter is good for either lead acid or AGM batteries. Trojan was not familiar with the Progressive Dynamics converter and would not comment on its use. I have not talked to PC about this.
Any one have any info on this?
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When I ordered my PC (pick up date was 5/17) their standard converter used was a Parallax. The Parallax converter on my previous RV was a simple charger not a 3 stage and I boiled my batteries on my first outing. >(
I changed to a Progressive Industries 3 stage and Lifeline AGM batteries and did fine for the next 10 years.
I checked all of the online data for Parallax at the time of ordering and there was scant info and nothing saying they were now 3 stage so I had PC put in a Progressive Industries PD4060 power station instead.
So, from experience, the Progressive Industries converter works great with Lifeline AGM. No experience using it with other batteries. Surprised you say Trojan is "unfamiliar" with Progressive Industries since they are a major manufacturer of RV converters.
I remain suspicious of Parallax and suspect they may still be a simple (not 3 stage) converter.
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Spoke with Parallax it is indeed a single stage converter They indicate I could add a TempAssure and this would help with AGM's. In searching archives found others have done this. Experience? I also have contacted Best Converter about a Boondocker 4 which is said to be a 3 stage converter that can be retrofitted to the Parallax Power Center. I am awaiting feedback from them. Given my past experience on sailboats I tend to lean toward the 3 stage converter, but maybe I am overthinking it.
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Spoke with Parallax it is indeed a single stage converter They indicate I could add a TempAssure and this would help with AGM's. In searching archives found others have done this. Experience? I also have contacted Best Converter about a Boondocker 4 which is said to be a 3 stage converter that can be retrofitted to the Parallax Power Center. I am awaiting feedback from them. Given my past experience on sailboats I tend to lean toward the 3 stage converter, but maybe I am overthinking it.
I am agreeing with your overthinking. NO way a single stage charger can efficiently charge batteries.
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A single stage charger is just not good for the batteries. I was surprised that PC was installing them.
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I had a Parallax converter in a previous camping trailer. When I ordered our PC I had them install a Progressive Dynamics 3 stage Converter (13.2, 13.6, and 14.4 volt) unit. The converter is in a separate enclosure from the breaker box. I have standard wet cell golf cart batteries.
They now offer a 14.8 volt in lieu of the 14.4 volt option which I would have preferred as it minimizes generator run time if the battery requires significant recharge.
The converter selects the appropriate voltage automatically or can be set manually with the charge Wizard.
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I have two AGM's. They are not as good as the people who try and sell them to you. Stick to Walmart 12 volt $99 deep cycle. I spent $250 per battery and they do not have the power/amps as a Walmart deep cycle. Wasted money. Yes there is new battery technology out there. But it is not AGM's. AGM,s only means they will outlast a conventunaly battery. Yes, as an engineer, what they are saying, it will outlast your conventional battery, but as a cost of power you need to run your coach. You can google Lithium but open your wallets. I live off the grid...... 24/7
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I have two AGM's. They are not as good as the people who try and sell them to you. Stick to Walmart 12 volt $99 deep cycle. I spent $250 per battery and they do not have the power/amps as a Walmart deep cycle. Wasted money. Yes there is new battery technology out there. But it is not AGM's. AGM,s only means they will outlast a conventunaly battery. Yes, as an engineer, what they are saying, it will outlast your conventional battery, but as a cost of power you need to run your coach. You can google Lithium but open your wallets. I live off the grid...... 24/7
Dont know about AGM's 'lasting longer'... But thats not 'only' what you get...
-no checking water, or more important the procedure to do so.
-no corrosion on the battery posts, giving more power through the connection longer
- VRLA batteries will self-discharge less than 3% per month at 77º F (25º C). Flooded batteries will self-discharge up to 15% per month at 77º F (25º C). (Per Trojan) For those of us who might be grid suckers, and neglect our batteries for ...lets say 3 months :beg.. it means the batteries are at ~90%, not ~55% after this time passes. More power for the coach, longer battery life.
Yes, the power/amps are a little less. My 12V group 31's are rated 105AH. I found this FLA group 31 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Nautilus-31-Deep-Cycle-Marine-Battery-31MDC/205309650) and its 115AH. 10% less capacity in the AGM. I consider that a good tradeoff for the benefits listed above!
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A bit of empirical data.. I have (4) gel cell batteries dated 6/16, (2) trojan AGM group 31's dated 5/18 and 3 group 75 FLA gas cart batteries dated 12/17-5/18 on my spares shelf now. For a few months. I check them weekly with a voltmeter, and supply a charge as necessary. The FLA's need charge monthly, they fall to ~12.2- 12.0 volts sitting for a month. The AGM's get charged every 2 months so far, they tend to go down to 12.6-12.7 after this period.
The gel cells are impressive. Fully charged at new years 2019, they are STILL at 13.03-13.08 (!) rest voltage. 98AH, so not a big capacity penalty. I salvaged them from a Gem Cart, there was a receipt for $2200 for (4) of them dated 8/16. Whoa! The owner didnt know there were 2 more up front.. (WH) and never asked before selling the cart to me as broken. Cheap! Ripped the batteries out and sold the rest for what I paid. 2o2
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Swapping out my old Parallax converter for a Progressive Dynamics PD9245CV Inteli-Power 9200 was one of the cheapest and easiest upgrades I've done. I paid $186 from Amazon and it works fine with my Costco $150 12V AGM batteries.
The hardest thing about the whole deal was locating the old converter. In my 2008 2350, it was behind the cabinet door with the metal grill -- the one with the weird hinges on BOTH sides of the door, so that you have to unscrew one set of hinges to open it. Once I found it, the new converter screwed into place in the same location, plugged into the same 110v outlet, and had the same 12V connections. Just be sure to disconnect the batteries before the swap.
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Thanks Blueblaze!
I was gonna ask FandJ which model they used.. but that 45A charger will work fine!
Link - https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Dynamics-PD9245CV-Inteli-Power-Converter/dp/B000GANZZ6
Good price too. Hope my 2006 swaps out as easy.
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There is a lot of discussion on this subject. To be honest it overwhelms me.
Phoenix installed 110V to 12V converter/chargers in their rigs through most of model year 2006. These came with a single house battery.
Late in the 2006 model year, Phoenix changed from a single house battery to 2 batteries to support 12V to 110V inverted power. The inverter/converter of choice at the time was the Tripp-Lite RV2012UL (https://www.tripplite.com/powerverter-rv-inverter-charger-quiet-mobile-power-rv-camping-boating-applications~RV2012UL). Tripp-Lite has since replaced it with model MRV2012UL (https://www.tripplite.com/powerverter-2000w-120v-12vdc-rv-inverter-charger-auto-transfer-switching-hardwired-ul458~MRV2012UL).
I don't know the year Phoenix changed inverters, but the Tripp-Lite unit was installed at least through model year 2008.
I wonder how the Tripp-Lite MRV2012UL compares to all the talk of converters and inverters today. If our Tripp-Lite fails one day, my plan would be to replace it with the MRV2012UL (https://www.tripplite.com/powerverter-2000w-120v-12vdc-rv-inverter-charger-auto-transfer-switching-hardwired-ul458~MRV2012UL), or possibly Tripp-Lite APS2012 (https://www.tripplite.com/2000w-powerverter-aps-12vdc-120v-inverter-charger-auto-transfer-switching-hardwired~APS2012). But I wonder if doing so, I would miss out on benefits of significance that are a complete mysterious to me. I wonder why everyone avoids the Tripp-Lite option.
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If you have not explored Battery University, its a great place to learn about things such as this.
Regarding charging, and why the single stage charger in my 2006 is not the best for my battery.. one really wants 14-14.5 volts for best charging. Mine tops out at 13.67 on my meter.
This is a '400' level course, so a tad technical. Knowing your background, you should be fine.
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery (https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery)
and another reason AGM is popular.. I check every month on all batteries in storage.
Lead acid batteries must always be stored in a charged state. A topping charge should be applied every 6 months to prevent the voltage from dropping below 2.05V/cell and causing the battery to sulfate. With AGM, these requirements can be relaxed.
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Ron, I just did a very quick look at the specs of the units you mentioned. As an inverter/charger they pack a lot into a small space. A few dislikes for me..looks like no external readout to provide info/error codes of what's going on.
The specs never list the charging profile..a strong dislike for me as different battery types and manufacturers have a recommended charging profile..no profile leaves you running blind if it is within optimize limits. (Also why I dislike the Parallax converter)
The MRV2012 is a PWM inverter not a pure sine wave. Many recommend a pure sine wave for electronics...but as with many things in the RV world there is plenty of discussion if needed. I prefer the pure sine just to be safe.
If you switched to separate chargers and inverters or other brand inverter/chargers it could mean significant wire changes for you.
Just a few quick thoughts for you.
..Mike
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Thanks Mike for "lifting the fog" a bit.
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There is a lot of discussion on this subject. To be honest it overwhelms me.
Phoenix installed 110V to 12V converter/chargers in their rigs through most of model year 2006. These came with a single house battery.
Late in the 2006 model year, Phoenix changed from a single house battery to 2 batteries to support 12V to 110V inverted power. The inverter/converter of choice at the time was the Tripp-Lite RV2012UL (https://www.tripplite.com/powerverter-rv-inverter-charger-quiet-mobile-power-rv-camping-boating-applications~RV2012UL). Tripp-Lite has since replaced it with model MRV2012UL (https://www.tripplite.com/powerverter-2000w-120v-12vdc-rv-inverter-charger-auto-transfer-switching-hardwired-ul458~MRV2012UL).
I don't know the year Phoenix changed inverters, but the Tripp-Lite unit was installed at least through model year 2008.
I wonder how the Tripp-Lite MRV2012UL compares to all the talk of converters and inverters today. If our Tripp-Lite fails one day, my plan would be to replace it with the MRV2012UL (https://www.tripplite.com/powerverter-2000w-120v-12vdc-rv-inverter-charger-auto-transfer-switching-hardwired-ul458~MRV2012UL), or possibly Tripp-Lite APS2012 (https://www.tripplite.com/2000w-powerverter-aps-12vdc-120v-inverter-charger-auto-transfer-switching-hardwired~APS2012). But I wonder if doing so, I would miss out on benefits of significance that are a complete mysterious to me. I wonder why everyone avoids the Tripp-Lite option.
Well, I don't know what happened in my case, but my 2008 never had any type of inverter. It came stock with only a 45amp Parallax 7445 converter. Maybe the original owner special ordered it without an inverter or something. In any case, I can verify that the Progressive Dynamics PD9245CV Inteli-Power 9200 is a direct replacement for a Parallax 7445, and it works fine with two 12V AGM's.
If had a Inverter/converter combination, I don't know what the best replacement would be, but I would be concerned if it doesn't have a trickle-charge mode. I like to leave my coach plugged in at home, and I like to stay in full-hookup campgrounds for several days at a time. That Parallax burned up two perfectly good batteries when I first got the RV and didn't know that I was supposed to avoid leaving my RV plugged in for extended periods. I don't think I've seen a single-stage automotive battery charger since I was a teenager, but apparently RV manufacturers think a two-stage charger is an extravagance in a motorhome. If you ask me, this gets back to the quality discussion.
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My 2019 PC 2552 which was built for the Hershey RV Show came with 2 Trojan 6v AGM batteries. The converter is built into a Progressive Dynamics Power Control Center Model PD4500. It is a 3 stage nonprogrammable unit with the following stages: Boost Mode 14.4 VDC for rapid charging, Normal Mode 13.6 VDC when batteries are in use but at or near full charge, and Storage Mode 13.2 VDC for batteries that are fully charged but haven't been used in the last 30 hours. Also when in the Storage Mode quote "the voltage will periodically increase to 14.4 VDC to help prevent sulfation of the battery plates".
The Trojan VRLA AGM battery spec sheet recommends that the charging voltage be between 14.1 and 14.7 VDC and the float voltage should be 13.5 VDC. It does not mention raising the voltage periodically to prevent sulfation.
Progressive recommends this converter for either wet cell or AGM batteries.
The power inverter is a separate Xantrex Pro Inverter model XM 1800.
So far everything is working very well.
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Very timely post for me. I’ve been researching batteries and converter/chargers for a while now.
My 2004 PC 2350 has an Elixir ELX-45 converter and a single 12v battery mounted in a compartment over the driver side rear wheel well. From the inside the battery box is under the large wardrobe cabinet beside the fridge. There’s a slide out tray in the battery box. The converter and breakers and fuses are below the fridge.
The Boondocker 1245 PC is supposed to be a direct replacement for the ELX-45 and is a 3 stage charger, so that’s what I have decided to get. I’m currently looking at a pair of Lifeline AGM batteries which I believe will fit in the battery box once the pull out tray is removed. To do any amount of boondocking we really need 2 batteries.
Lithium batteries would be great but the cost is extremely high and I don’t know if the alternator would be compatible with them.
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Very timely post for me. I’ve been researching batteries and converter/chargers for a while now.
My 2004 PC 2350 has an Elixir ELX-45 converter and a single 12v battery mounted in a compartment over the driver side rear wheel well. From the inside the battery box is under the large wardrobe cabinet beside the fridge......
I’m currently looking at a pair of Lifeline AGM batteries which I believe will fit in the battery box once the pull out tray is removed. To do any amount of boondocking we really need 2 batteries.
If your battery compartment can handle two-6V AGMs, I recommend them over a pair of 12V AGMs. We have two 6V AGMs and they have been performing exceptionally well, four RV seasons years so far. Unlike both sets of 12V conventional batteries we had before, these seem to discharge and recharge uniformly like they are one really big 12V AGM battery.
You mentioned Lifeline AGM. If you pursue 6V AGM, Sam's Club has the Duracell brand for around $180 each, and that is what we have. But not every Sam's Club carries them. CLICK HERE (https://www.samsclub.com/sams/duracell-agm-golf-car-battery-group-size-gc2agm/prod3870119.ip) to see them. Sam's Club also sells deep cycle 12V AGM.
12V or 6V, regardless of your choice, going AGM will work well in your 2004 limited space compartment because you never have to check fluids. Hook them up and never touch them again until you have to replace them. But you already know that. :)(:
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Ron, thanks for the reply.
I have looked at a pair of 6v but they are all taller than the 12v. I don’t think I would have enough room above them to easily connect the cables. And yes, AGM is the only way I can utilize the existing battery box because of the no maintenance feature. If I can’t use the battery box, things become a lot more complicated because I would have to find a new place for the batteries.
I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and willingness to share on this forum. Thanks!
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I have looked at a pair of 6v but they are all taller than the 12v. I don’t think I would have enough room above them to easily connect the cables.
John, since you've been doing some research on the batteries I'm sure you're up to speed on this--but remember that you have more flexibility with the AGMs. I don't know how tight the dimensions are that you're working with, but the AGMs can install in any position (in addition to upright) if that would help with the space.
Mike
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Ron, thanks for the reply.
I have looked at a pair of 6v but they are all taller than the 12v. I don’t think I would have enough room above them to easily connect the cables. And yes, AGM is the only way I can utilize the existing battery box because of the no maintenance feature. If I can’t use the battery box, things become a lot more complicated because I would have to find a new place for the batteries.
I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and willingness to share on this forum. Thanks!
FWIW, I took out the battery tray and (2) group 31 trojan AGM fit in just fine! Hook them up in parallel, with the positive feed off one battery and negative off the other to ensure even charge/discharge.
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FWIW, I took out the battery tray and (2) group 31 trojan AGM fit in just fine! Hook them up in parallel, with the positive feed off one battery and negative off the other to ensure even charge/discharge.
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That’s great to know because that’s the plan! Thanks!
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Folks, thanks for this discussion....very informative and helpful. I now believe this is the root of my battery issues, I checked them after reading this and had to add two 16oz bottles of water to each one...so yes they are getting cooked. I just assumed the rig had a multi stage inverter???
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Folks, thanks for this discussion....very informative and helpful. I now believe this is the root of my battery issues, I checked them after reading this and had to add two 16oz bottles of water to each one...so yes they are getting cooked. I just assumed the rig had a multi stage inverter???
Yes, given that you have a 2018 model, I too would have assumed it had a multi stage charger. My PC is 15 years old, so no surprise there.
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TOM, I believe there may be a malfunction of your charger since you have a newer unit. Perhaps go thru the literature to determine which converter/charger you have. Just sitting in storage with occasional checking might have resulted in batteries going close to dry. I do not stay plugged in, but check fluid in batteries every couple months anyway. Were your batteries toast or will they hold a charge now?
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I replaced my old batteries that needed monthly water fill with distilled with AGM when I did service late last fall and discovered I had to shut off power by door (12V) and the unit on wall which has small hard to read board... I read the book that came with it and not a mention of what to do with AGM installed. So far I seem to have power when I am on the road. I don't bet on it yet since I have not been on road enough to measure what I have to work with. I do know it is nothing like the battery charger unit I had in the Allegro Bus... which never needed adjusting.... I think this one does not have anything automatic. Certainly not the driver.... so my new guessing game is on.
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TOM, I believe there may be a malfunction of your charger since you have a newer unit. Perhaps go thru the literature to determine which converter/charger you have. Just sitting in storage with occasional checking might have resulted in batteries going close to dry. I do not stay plugged in, but check fluid in batteries every couple months anyway. Were your batteries toast or will they hold a charge now?
Actually I have a separate thread discussing my issue. Not sure if my batteries are toast, I have the coach unplugged from power and currently have a smart (Optimate) charger on my batteries. My inverter is a Xantrex PRO XM 1800...I googled it and it states that it is a “smart” charger including low battery voltage alarm and low battery voltage shut off.
Honestly, I just wat to be able to plug this coach into a 20amp garage receptacle to charge the batteries, but can’t cuz something in the coach trips my GFI. Turns out it’s the breaker left of the main in the coach which is labeled “Inverter Power”, there is another breaker labeled “20A Main Inverter”.
Tom
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Tom B, If you have a power problem and possible short, that is the first thing to fix.
Also I know this was addressed somewhat on another post but I'm hoping to simplify here:
Inverter
TAKES power from DC 12v battery
Changes DC current to AC current so standard plug-ins work
Inverter ONLY needs to be turned on when rig is not plugged in
Inverter alarms are to tell you there isn't enough power in the battery for it to take
Panel inverter information can tell you battery charge level as well as how much inverter is taking from the battery at any given time.
Some items use so little power they won't show on the panel (think of a 50 gallon barrel that leaks one drop every few seconds. You only have a one cup measure so each drop seems insignificant and doesn't show up on your measurements but eventually it will drain the barrel.)
Converter
Pushes power into the batteries
Converts/Changes the AC shore power into DC so it can be stored in the batteries
Converter only runs when rig is plugged in and the battery is less than fully charged
The fan on the Converter runs to cool it. If you hear the fan, something is drawing 12v battery power (this is assuming we are starting from a charged battery)
Standard RV refrigerators will use DC or AC. If RV is plugged in, it uses that AC power and doesn't draw down the batteries. If not plugged in, it switches to propane but still uses a small amount of power from the batteries. The inverter does NOT have to be on to do this.
Inverter enabled outlets - certain outlets can be run direct from shore power OR from the batteries. The inverter must be on to get power from the battery to these outlets when you are not plugged in.
The inverter needs power to run even if it isn't powering anything else. If you are not plugged in and the inverter is left on, it is feeding off the batteries. When we dry camp we only turn the inverter on if we need power at those inverter enabled outlets or to run the entertainment system.
Hope this clarifies instead of confuses.
We carry the "RV Owner's Handbook" by Gary Bunzer, "The RV Doctor" and refer to it when we are trying to troubleshoot systems or understand basics. Most of his info should be on his website also but we don't always have signal so the book rides along.
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We carry the "RV Owner's Handbook" by Gary Bunzer, "The RV Doctor" and refer to it when we are trying to troubleshoot systems or understand basics. Most of his info should be on his website also but we don't always have signal so the book rides along.
As a gift, I received a copy of "Are you RV Ready" by Jeffrey E. Boyer. Well written and containing excellent information. I have referred to this book more times that I would have expected. Would recommend adding this guide to your RV documentation.
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Thanks. Put it on my RV wish list. No ebook format :( which I think ALL RV books should offer but sometimes it's worth carrying the paper.
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Update: Finished installing the Boondocker BD60HW in my '17 2351. Fairly straight forward, although the new model is different from the installation video on Best Converters, which necessitated a little shade tree metal fab of the existing converter chassis and some help from Randy at Best Converters.
One of the excellent takeaways from 2Frazzled's is that it is really important to understand the difference between converters and inverters when having these discussions.