Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: 2 Lucky on February 16, 2019, 02:21:44 pm
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After a trip south and returning to impending snow, the need to re-winterize presented a situation I have not thought of or heard discussed before. The lines to the holding tank spray nozzles are exposed under the chassis. After spraying out the tanks and disconnecting the water hose, I opened the individual valves and a bunch of water came out of the inlet. I did not think of this last year, so obviously there was not a problem. It made me wonder if more water was still in the lines to the tanks that could not drain due to lack of gravity. Thinking of using an air nozzle to blow into the tanks to clear the lines....any ideas, comments, or concerns? Wasted worry?
Dougn
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The inlet fitting includes an integral check-valve which is supposed to keep water from running back out the inlet. Since this connects to the waste tanks, the check-valve is a safety measure to prevent contamination of your filler hose. Perhaps your check valve is stuck open now. This could explain why you didn't notice this last year. If so, you should consider replacing the inlet fitting. I had to do this last year. Replacement part cost about $30 and was easy to install.
But of course none of this answers your question. If the check valve is doing its job, it seems to me that the water remaining in the flush lines could freeze and bust the pipes. But I've never heard of this happening. I wonder why.
John
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The inlet fitting includes an integral check-valve which is supposed to keep water from running back out the inlet. Since this connects to the waste tanks, the check-valve is a safety measure to prevent contamination of your filler hose. Perhaps your check valve is stuck open now. This could explain why you didn't notice this last year. If so, you should consider replacing the inlet fitting. I had to do this last year. Replacement part cost about $30 and was easy to install.
But of course none of this answers your question. If the check valve is doing its job, it seems to me that the water remaining in the flush lines could freeze and bust the pipes. But I've never heard of this happening. I wonder why.
John
I won't worry about a back-flow check valve, since I attach the garden hose and turn it on, then turn on the tank spray valves, then turn off the tank spray valves, then turn off the hose bib. No way tank water gets anywhere near the garden hose. And at least the lines can drain somewhat without a check valve. I didn't even think of those lines last year and they did not do any freeze damage, probably because the lines are a flexible hose, but what about the fittings?
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Yes, I think the flush valves were omitted from winterizing instructions as I couldn't find a mention of them after having an issue last March trying to flush. After taking the lines loose from the tanks and finding water in them I concluded the problem was with the check valves being jammed from freezing. Couldn't find any damage but they wouldn't pass water. I was almost to the point of ordering more when I decided there was nothing to lose by trying a light tap with a center punch. It worked and they got a blast of air last year after the last flush when winterizing.
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HMMM...
I was hoping to hear if more people either did something to winterize these lines, or never thought of it but never had a problem. Or had no clue as to what I was talking about. Or possibly never use the holding tank sprayer system at all? Or is it that of the 135 views, only 3 are actual PC owners? I guess also that PC does not monitor this Forum or they would have responded. Seemed important to me...
Thanks to those of you who did reply.
Dougn
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HMMM...
I was hoping to hear if more people either did something to winterize these lines, or never thought of it but never had a problem. Or had no clue as to what I was talking about. Or possibly never use the holding tank sprayer system at all? Or is it that of the 135 views, only 3 are actual PC owners? I guess also that PC does not monitor this Forum or they would have responded. Seemed important to me...
Thanks to those of you who did reply.
Dougn
We've had our Phoenix for five years, been in serious multiple day freezes several times and shorter multi-hour freezes many many times. We never thought about those lines, never did anything to winterize them and never had a problem. We use the flush valves often and they still seem to work fine. We show no signs of leakage under the rig from them.
Phoenix does not monitor this forum in the manner you suggest. I believe they jump in if someone is being evil (we've had a couple seriously nasty people get on then get tossed off during the six or so years I've followed the forum). They may read it occasionally but it is an owners' forum and they don't really mess with it.
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Reading some of the replies earlier, they gave me the impression that the fresh water used for the tank rinse is somehow connected to the potable water inlet? My 2006 model 2350 has a separate hose fitting just for flushing... Or maybe the check valve that is referred to is in this separate fitting.. ?
If I am in freezing weather with the coach it means I did something wrong... :beg So winterizing has not even been on the radar.
@ 2Lucky - You think eBikes are off topic? roflol Go see the 2020 Ford E450 cutaway thread... it has gone to discussion on building green. 2o2 Intelligent people tend to wander... :-D
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The water system changed in 2014 I think. My 2013 has fresh water fill opening on passenger side and separate hose hookup in macerator cabinet for the tank rinse function.
Newer models have a four-way switch in the macerator compartment so they can fill and flush from the same location.
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The water system changed in 2014 I think. My 2013 has fresh water fill opening on passenger side and separate hose hookup in macerator cabinet for the tank rinse function.
Newer models have a four-way switch in the macerator compartment so they can fill and flush from the same location.
:beg Whoa... so there is a direct line from the black tank to the potable water inlet?
And... the potable water hookup is in the macerator cabinet? AKA The Sewer Closet?!?!??! (or maybe I read that wrong...just the valve is...)
Um... my oversight I am sure, but HOW is that a better idea? I do lack experience in this (nod) , but the few times we have dumped there has been a hose at the station that I hooked up to the flush inlet. Then used same hose to flush my 3" line and elbow before I put them away. When we are at a full hookup, I have a 10' hose just for tank flushing and hose rinseout. The potable water hose is *NEVER* close to or used for these duties. Seems like basic sanitary 'common sense'.
I certainly hope I am wrong, but with the 'new and improved' single water inlet, am I expected to connect the dump station fresh water hose to my city water inlet and then flush tanks? :-[
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Our 2007 2350 model with macerator has the fresh water tank filler door on the passenger side, and the RV park water connection on the driver side, but located away from sewage management. Inside the sewer management macerator area (behind that long horizontal door hinged upward) there is another water line hook-up dedicated to flushing out the waste tanks. I believe every PC equipped with a macerator, but WITHOUT the fancy current day 3 or 4 way water valve thingy is setup the same way.
The fancy 3 or 4 way water valve was introduced in model year in 2016 or 2017.....right? Does waste tank flushing utilize that 3 or 4 way valve? Or do you have the extra water line connection by the macerator to flush the two waste tanks like the older PCs have?
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Newer coaches with the 3- or 4-way fresh water control valve still have the completely separate holding tank flush lines, plumbed to a dedicated hose connector behind the flip-up door which covers the macerator dump hose. Tank flush lines are totally separate from any fresh water plumbing.
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Newer coaches with the 3- or 4-way fresh water control valve still have the completely separate holding tank flush lines, plumbed to a dedicated hose connector behind the flip-up door which covers the macerator dump hose. Tank flush lines are totally separate from any fresh water plumbing.
tymote I am SO glad it was my misunderstanding. Dad was an engineer, so I can see how some engineer had convinced PC that all could be done with one water inlet. :lol I feared it was so.
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Sorry. That was my misunderstanding. I'm glad someone with the new valve corrected me. I had thought the same bad design thing. So, what are the four positions on the valve? Fresh water to plumbing (water hook up), fresh water to full holding tank, and two more? One is probably off.
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On my 2018 2552, exactly one year old last week, the positions on the 4-way fresh water valve are:
— “City Water” - pressurized flow from the inlet hose,
— “Tank” - fills the fresh water tank,
— “Dry Camping” - coach pump supplies water from the fresh water tank, and
— “Winterize/Sanitize” - for slurping pink antifreeze into the plumbing.
John
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So, are everybody's tank flush hoses exposed to the elements, and therefore should be blown out or winterized, which sounds like something no one has thought of or done, and with no apparent damage? (And I thought I had serious ADD.)
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We have 2018 2552. We have the four way toggle for fresh water fill, city water, tank water using the pump and winterize. We also have the water connection in the macertor pump section on the rear driver's side. There are two valves labeled grey tank flush and black tank flush. I never winterized those two valves. I did not see anything in the PC info I received that showed a need to put antifreeze in there. We drove down to Florida on January 27. I tried flushing the two tanks. When I turned on the valve for the black and grey tank, as I did in the fall, each time there was some flushing sounds from each of the tanks. But there was also spraying water the back side of the valves. It looked like there may be a rupture either on the hoses connected to the tanks or something else. I have not been able to get under the coach to see what was leaking. Too hot here. Will check underneath when we return home in a couple of weeks. I am concerned that something did rupture especially since we had some very cold weather in NE Pa in December and January. One thing I know for sure is that typing a long paragraph using a "smart" phone is stupid. Took me more than half an hour.
John Dimitriadis
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I've never winterized our tank flush lines mainly because I don't think of it. Never had any issues, but stored in an un-heated building, and probably should winterize.
This winter saw temp's we haven't had in quite a while and I wonder what I'll find out when I test it post storage, this spring.
jim
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I've never winterized our tank flush lines mainly because I don't think of it. Never had any issues, but stored in an un-heated building, and probably should winterize.
This winter saw temp's we haven't had in quite a while and I wonder what I'll find out when I test it post storage, this spring.
jim
You are running risky.
I hope you are at least draining the fresh water lines, fresh water tank and water heater. Your traps will create some serious trouble, especially the one under the shower pan because of the limited access to it, maybe no access to it. Ignoring a leaky trap could destroy the structural floor of your PC.
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Ron, sorry i wasn't clear about winterizing. You have a sharp eye, my friend. It's just the black and gray tank flush lines that I've neglected to winterize.
All other plumbing and traps get the pink stuff. If I find out this deep-freeze winter has damaged the flushers I'll be kicking myself for sure. pyho
Any suggestions on how to force antifreeze into that hose connection for the flushers ?
jim
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Ah Jim, I get it now.
I suppose the best one could do is opening both the black and gray flush valves and let gravity get as much water out of that system as possible.
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Believing more is better, I hook up my compressor and put forty psi of air into the freshwater inlet to blow out the lines and I open each water valve one at a time to completely blow out everywhere the lines go (hopefully). Also, you can hook up the air hose to the inlet on the holding tank lines, open them up and blow water remaining in those pipes right into the black and gray tanks respectively. Or at least I hope you can heartshower.
Then, I put about twice as much pink stuff into the lines as most folks use. I have a small "plumber's helper" built for sinks that I use to flush out as much water in the P traps as possible, then I pour over a quart of pinkie in each sink drain. I pour about a half gallon in the shower pan to make absolutely sure it is ok.
In summary, I overkill with air and pink. Hey, five gallons of pink is a twenty dollar bill at Walmart. That is a heck of a lot cheaper than finding busted lines all over the place next spring (assuming it EVER warms up). Our average low this time of year is high 30s and tomorrow night it will be down to single digits.
Paul
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I don't officially winterize our PC but I do drain all water from all fresh water systems. I am impressed that 99.99% of the water comes out via gravity alone from all the pipes. I open the hot and cold drain valves (to the street) located in the outdoor storage compartment, open the kitchen & bathroom faucet, shower & outside shower, and HWH, and it all drains out. I know this because when I use compressed air to eject the last of it, just a few drops of water comes out. It appears that I only have to winterize the traps. It would be nice if there was a means to blast the water out the traps, then drain the tanks and forget the pink all together.
I am sure each PC model has it's own characteristics, but our 2007 2350 self-evacuates exceptionally well.
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Thanks for the advice on the flushers. Need to put that on the old winterize checklist !
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We have 2018 2552. ... there was also spraying water the back side of the valves. It looked like there may be a rupture either on the hoses connected to the tanks or something else. I have not been able to get under the coach to see what was leaking. Too hot here. Will check underneath when we return home in a couple of weeks. I am concerned that something did rupture especially since we had some very cold weather in NE Pa in December and January.
John Dimitriadis
Had the black tank flush valve leaking behind the side wall. Turned out it was just the twist on connector had loosened. I hand tightened it and it has been fine since. Haven't winterized the valves (didn't occur to me). Been through one winter without a problem. Will see how it fairs through this winter. We have also had colder weather lows this year.
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This post is addressing the tank flush lines ONLY.
- I'm pretty sure older models do not have the sprayers at all.
- Our 2013 has them. I don't know what year they started installing them. We have a hose attachment in the macerator cabinet that does one thing: supply water to the little sprayers inside both our black and grey tanks. When we turn them on, we hear the water pelting the inside of the tanks.
We've never winterized those flush lines, have been in lengthy deep freezes and have not had any problems to date. It's possible they simply drain out into the tank. I haven't crawled underneath to trace the lines so don't know if they are set up for gravity to do its thing. If motivation finds me, I'll check.
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This post is addressing the tank flush lines ONLY.
- I'm pretty sure older models do not have the sprayers at all.
- Our 2013 has them. I don't know what year they started installing them. We have a hose attachment in the macerator cabinet that does one thing: supply water to the little sprayers inside both our black and grey tanks. When we turn them on, we hear the water pelting the inside of the tanks.
We've never winterized those flush lines, have been in lengthy deep freezes and have not had any problems to date. It's possible they simply drain out into the tank. I haven't crawled underneath to trace the lines so don't know if they are set up for gravity to do its thing. If motivation finds me, I'll check.
The lines go up from the valves and over the plumbing to the top part of the tanks. My pic on the original post is a shot looking straight up, so no need to crawl under! (I always use my cell phone to snap pics of places I'd rather not stoop to, and those tiny printed directions on everything...take a pic and enlarge it.) I opened my valves last time after flushing the tanks and a bunch of water drained out of the filler connection, so water does stay trapped . Probably more danger to the valves and fittings than to the actual flexible hose used,
Phunny PC never mentions this, also odd no problems have been noticed.
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Good pic. So we should probably all winterize those and the question returns to how. Those with a compressor can do the air thing and that should work. They just have to remember to go around and do that valve also but a question asked above is how to do it without a compressor.
Would one of those miracle grow things (filled with pink stuff not fertilizer) hooked to a hose do the trick or would it be too diluted?
A related question: Can you do the compressed air with the four way valve? (I know you'd also need to do the flush line connector)
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We have a 2011, prior to the 3 or 4 way valve. As you can see from Dougn's picture the valves are at the lowest point , the line to the tanks are about a foot higher. The flush water hose hook up is at the bottom of the valve array. After flushing and upon disconnecting the hose leave the gray and black tank valves open allowing for drainage of the small amount of water remaining in the lines. Once the flow of water has stopped and it's miniscule, the lines are clear, final step is to close the valves.
This has worked for me, never had a freeze up problem. This is separate from the house water system which I fully winterize. Hope this helps.
Jake
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Good pic. So we should probably all winterize those and the question returns to how. Those with a compressor can do the air thing and that should work. They just have to remember to go around and do that valve also but a question asked above is how to do it without a compressor.
Would one of those miracle grow things (filled with pink stuff not fertilizer) hooked to a hose do the trick or would it be too diluted?
A related question: Can you do the compressed air with the four way valve? (I know you'd also need to do the flush line connector)
When you blow out the lines, you connect the air at the lines at the water pump, first in side to water tank then out to faucets. I don't have the four way valve but it should be able to be set to different positions for the same effect.
I have always blow out lines. We live in the arid Southwest where many have underground sprinkler systems that need to be blown out every fall when the irrigation ditches are shut off for the winter. It works.
I also remember the pre-pink stuff days when blowing out the lines was the only option (or maybe my Dad was just too thrifty to buy the stuff!)
As I understand it, the water heater and the water tank emptied can freeze the little residual with no damage because there is room for expansion of the ice. The grey and black tanks would be fine but not the drain plumbing upstream of the dump valves.
I would not try the hose end fertilizer sprayer as it would dilute the the pink too much.