Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: hutch42 on February 11, 2019, 07:28:46 pm
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New 3100 at Campers Inn. MSRP is the same as fully loaded, with liquid springs on PC pricing list before discount price of $156,000. Wonder what you can get at Campers Inn. Could produce a little confusion with folks doing a comparison between factory direct and bartering with Campers Inn....maybe not?
https://www.rvt.com/Phoenix-Cruiser-3100-2019-Jacksonville-FL-ID8574031-UX198494
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From what I was told by Barry at the Tampa RV show. ALL Phoenix Cruiser sales will be handled by Campers Inn.
They now have an exclusive marketing agreement with them.
When I asked if I could still come to the factory to put together a custom PC and order he said yes for the foreseeable future but the sales paperwork would be with Campers Inn.
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Hutch/Jim,
Happened to be at the factory today getting ready to take delivery of my new 2552. I had seen the first post on this news back on January 16 that Jim posted ("PC News From Tampa") regarding the Phoenix sales team wearing Campers Inn shirts at the Tampa show, and his information that Phoenix was moving from factory direct sales to selling through the Campers Inn network.
I took the opportunity to ask Pete in sales about it today, and Pete confirmed that last week was the final week for direct sales from the factory. All sales will now be conducted through Campers Inn--during the transition period, any contacts or sales inquiries at Phoenix that result in a sale will actually then be referred to and transacted through Campers Inn. Over time, Campers Inn will initially be the sole contact point and source for sales of Phoenix Cruisers. I say initially because Phoenix realizes that with Campers Inn being an East Coast chain, they need to get something in place for the west coast and other areas of the country. As I understand it, right now they anticipate establishing additional agreements with comparable high quality dealership groups in other areas.
According to Pete, Phoenix does not anticipate any significant change in their current sales, pricing, and discount philosophy. They evidently have buy-in from Campers Inn on that point, and expect to actually train Campers Inn sales reps on their approach and the Phoenix line. It also apparently won't affect customization or factory support and repair services at Elkhart (though I'm unsure how the customization piece will work, since the customer ultimately won't be dealing with the factory at all). This will be an interesting transition that will bring Phoenix back "full circle" to selling through dealers again. As Jim said in his post, I believe they intend to use the freed-up resources to continue to expand, and specifically to charge forward with a new line based on the Transit and the prototype that they unveiled late last year.
Mike
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Thanks for that update MikeH.
That's disappointing to hear. I just hope quality doesn't suffer.
Sounds like prices will go up, since there's a new layer of people to get paid.
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Thanks for that update MikeH.
That's disappointing to hear. I just hope quality doesn't suffer.
Sounds like prices will go up, since there's a new layer of people to get paid.
PC prices are now approaching "Coach House" levels. I would think there would be enough meat on the bone for both Campers Inn and PC to make a go of it if they used Coach House and LTV discount levels. Average of 10-12% off of MSRP for new, so prices will in effect go up for the consumer. The key will be maintaining a quality service and product. Thats going to be the tough one. Going from 3 PC contact people a year ago to north of 100 people with their fingers in the pie with Campers Inn involved.
LTV has been able to accomplish this with a dealer system.
The other challenge will be catching up a little on technology's and the new wave of Genxer and Millennial buyers that want off the grid living with multiplex, solar, lithium, Truma, compressor fridge, induction cook tops, etc systems. Millennial's are expected to outnumber boomers in 2019 :'(
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Kermit Fisher did what he had to do during the very tough times during the late 90’s and he was able to keep his great little company going when many folded. Times do change and today game is volume period, get the units out the door. The demand for new and innovative coaches is great and very expensive for sure. I am sure there was a price to pay for the exclusive rights to sell PC’s on CI part. All I will say is the price will go up, the quality will go down, and the service supplied by Campers Inn leaves a lot to be desired! I do hope PC is making the right decision that only time will tell. Again, hats off to Kermit and the crew.
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Kermit Fisher did what he had to do during the very tough times during the late 90’s and he was able to keep his great little company going when many folded. Times do change and today game is volume period, get the units out the door. The demand for new and innovative coaches is great and very expensive for sure. I am sure there was a price to pay for the exclusive rights to sell PC’s on CI part. All I will say is the price will go up, the quality will go down, and the service supplied by Campers Inn leaves a lot to be desired! I do hope PC is making the right decision that only time will tell. Again, hats off to Kermit and the crew.
Ron
I did not want to bring up the Born Free story. A little different circumstances, but not much.
Get your snow shovel out. I did not retire in NH because of the cold. So its been below freezing here for two weeks and it just dumped 8" of snow last night. :help
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The timing for this change could not be worse for Phoenix Cruiser. The reason Kermit went to direct sales was the onset of the recession of 2008. RV dealers and manufacturers were going belly up one after another. Historically a recession occurs every 8-9 years. We are currently in the 10th year of a growing economy. History predicts we're overdue for another recession. Now is not the time for PC to share the pie with a retailer and expand the line. I wish PC the best of luck. If they can sell a new 3100 for $200K that should make my 2012 3100 worth more at resale or trade in.
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They needed to do something to expand their market share. For whatever reason(s) they were stuck at ~65 per year, going by the stock numbers for the 8 still on the “new inventory” list.
Looks like someone forgot to cancel the factory direct ad on page 11 of the March 2019 issue of Motorhome Magazine.
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They have been making approximately 100 units per year (or so Earl and Kyle told me in early 2015) since at least 2010. No idea how many they have made since Kermit sold the company.
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I have mixed feelings about this situation.
On the one hand I understand every company needs to adapt and grow to survive.
And I hope this new arrangement works for PC.
Perhaps selfishly, I hoped to be able to deal directly with the people that helped build the great reputation PC has today.
My first reaction was why Campers Inn. A quick google search would reveal a less than savory reputation for the operation. But then when I tried to come up with a better partner for PC I couldn't think of any. All RV dealerships have their share of bad press.
While at the Tampa show when I voiced these concerns I was approached by Jim Weiss of Campers Inn.
Apparently he is the point man from CI that made this deal happen.
He came across as sincere and willing to go the extra mile to make this arrangement work for everyone involved.
I also have concerns about QC as PC goes from 2 units a week to 5 units.
Sure there will be kinks along the way but I believe that even with that possibility PC will still be head and shoulders above the other mass produced brands.
So for now I will wait and watch this new business model unfold.
And when I am ready to order a new RV, hopefully within the next 6 months, I hope Phoenix Cruiser will still be the vendor of choice.
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Disappointing in so many ways. As a relative newbie PC owner who bought in after being abused by Winnebago, I can tell you my main attraction to PC was the direct dealer relationship. In January I spent 2 days at the factory having Doug and his crew make repairs, modifications and improvements. I can assure you that NO dealership anywhere could have completed this work as efficiently, Doug's knowledge of these units guaranteed the work was done to spec and he guided me away from "bad improvements " more than once.
Of course values will fall now that our precious "custom" motorhomes have become just another commodity, used Winnebago, Newmar, etc "premium" brands suffer in resale since there are thousands for sale. The new owners haven't announced plans to ramp up production levels anywhere near those brands but it seems their goal is to change business models so I'm guessing sale of the company could happen for the right price. For now I'll continue to love my "pre-Thor" model and watch as things progress, however the shine is off the brand.
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Eventually the E_450 will go away. PC can't turn on a dime when that occurs. So perhaps they are planning for that day. They are keeping the current lineup fresh with new interiors, new models and liquid springs. Have to be ready when the coals are hot otherwise someone else will take your business. I am excited to see if they can produce a nice transit model.
The only other RV I considered was Lazy Daze. Very well built with no slides. However it is all wood with a flat roof. That spells trouble in Michigan with our bad winters. I would need inside storage which is too costly. That is why they are mostly found on the west coast.
Ron
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I agree with the many comments and concerns.
I was introduced to Phoenix in January 2007 at the Rosement RV show near Chicago. That was a good year before the recession and at least a year before factory-direct sales. Working with the local dealership at the show, a PC-2350 was too costly. I called the factory but was told to work through their dealer network. So I was on a nation-wide search for a used PC-2350. During my search I found a Phoenix dealer in Mendon, MA called East Acres RV. Don Keller there did not have used inventory so he worked with me cutting our cost by $20,000 compared to the local dealer on a new made-for-us PC-2350. We did the paperwork across the country and we picked up our PC at the factory. We never had a warranty claim to deal with. The $20,000 savings made it work. If Don Keller didn't come through for us, we would have surely bought another brand of motor home.
My concern is that Phoenix might price them self out of the market, and at the same time reduce their customer-direct relationship with middle-men placed in between. If they are successful with increased sales, I then worry about turning out PCs with a sacrifice to quality and beating up their staff the same as other RV manufactures do. Over-worked RV line workers is the primary reason why RVs are made so poorly.
Hopefully my concerns don't come to fruition and Phoenix has a great run with a great product doing business this new way.
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"Eventually the E_450 will go away. PC can't turn on a dime when that occurs. So perhaps they are planning for that day. They are keeping the current lineup fresh with new interiors, new models and liquid springs. Have to be ready when the coals are hot otherwise someone else will take your business. I am excited to see if they can produce a nice transit model."
Coach House kind of blew their intro to the Transit. To long, big overhang, and almost no CCC. LTV has done and admirable job on the Wonder Transit, sans limited dinning and floor space. The other big three makers have a quality problem. The TRX that PC rolled out is a perfect balance length, weight, WB and quality. Ive been following the Transit C's since early 2016 and I think PC could make a real winner in the under 24' class/size.
I sent "Pete" the TRX project manager a rendition of what we were looking for.
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In an earlier post I passed along information I had picked up from a conversation with Pete (in sales at PC) a couple days ago. I left the factory today with my new unit, but before leaving I tried to flesh this issue out a little more without being too inquisitive. I talked with a couple other folks, including Keith, the admin and money man about the Campers Inn transition. Based on information from those sources (which dovetails with earlier reports that Jim Godfrey got from Barry at the Tampa show), a couple of things seem pretty solid.
For the "foreseeable future" the ability to coordinate a purchase directly with Phoenix in Elkhart will continue unchanged, EXCEPT the actual purchase will be transacted through a Campers Inn outlet. PC's sales team is still taking sales calls, coordinating options and customization, and writing orders just like they have been doing, using the same pricing and discount lists. A buyer can still work the entire build process and take delivery at the factory as always. The actual purchase, however, will transact through CI. I heard this explained in detail to one phone inquiry while there. I asked Keith if he knew how long Phoenix would maintain that arrangement, and he said he did not, but there is no intent at this point to move away from it.
One big advantage for Phoenix with the CI deal seems to be substantial additional production. As I was told, the cream of the Camper's Inn dealerships (some 13 out of 23 or 25 total), will actually be stocking dealers, with several new PC's sitting on their lots for sale. That would seem to mean that in addition to their traditional production for orders as they come in to Elkhart, Phoenix will be building quite a number of spec units to load up the CI dealerships. As a matter of fact, I saw far more new completed PCs sitting at the factory (quite a few outside in the snow!) than I have seen on any previous trip--and the shop was full. I think that ~65 to 100 per year mentioned in earlier comments is undergoing a significant increase--but in three different conversations the importance of maintaining Phoenix's reputation and quality was re-emphasized as the key to future success.
To help manage the logistics of the Campers Inn activities, there will be a dedicated Campers Inn representative placed full time at the factory to facilitate sales transactions there, as well as coordinate warranty and repair requirements for units sold out of the dealerships. That person will be the liaison between the Campers Inn chain and Phoenix for the RV sales issues.
I don't know how this initiative will play out, but it seems to be a fairly well planned effort. We can hope that it will result in the best of both worlds--maintain the direct factory connection for customers who want to personalize their buy that way, and at the same time expand the Phoenix Cruiser brand exposure to a lot more potential RV buyers throughout the east coast who otherwise would never have heard of a PC--resulting in a more solid footing and financial stability for Phoenix.
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Mikes
Thanks for the update. Congratulations on your new PC and welcome to our house!
Your update is very encouraging. PC is in good hands and seems to have there act together. I look forward to the future and the new PCs to come.
Ron
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200 grand for a E450! I kept thinking it was a typo, there is no way on earth I’d pay that for a class C. Someone will though... as they say, “ A fool and his money are soon parted!”
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200 grand for a E450! I kept thinking it was a typo, there is no way on earth I’d pay that for a class C.
There is big money being spent on motor homes and I hope Phoenix can be a part of it. But $200k places Phoenix in a whole new category. To be honest, I really wouldn't know how they compare to their new-found competition. I really don't know the market, but every class-C I have seen built on an E450 is typically priced a lot less. $200k is more like a Super-C to me, so Joseph I understand your point.
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I tend to think the highly inflated MSRP being advertised by Campers Inn does more harm than good as far as resale values go. Having just received an email from Camping World advertising their "factory unauthorized" discounts of $43,000 off the MSRP on new Winnebago's proves to even the most gullible those numbers are simply made up. In fact, if I were to pursue one of those units for sale at CW I would have reason to push for a far deeper discount since they're obviously open to negotiations. Similarly, I was able to get a discount of almost $20k on the used PC I bought from a dealer - consumers know (or should know!) that dealer prices are set unrealistically higher in order to set the bar for negotiating. If PC's are sold under these conditions consumers will expect significant discounts, much different conditions than exist today with new units being priced realistically and most used units sold person-to-person with realistic pricing.
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Those are absurd prices on the new units. You don't need a dealer network that inflates prices, in the age of the internet. My bet is that most RV shoppers look for and then select the unit they want by looking online. A dealer just adds unnecessary cost. Some of the biggest success stories of current marketing has eliminated middlemen. What Phoenix Cruiser just did is add to their cost without adding to the value of their fantastic product.
I owned a diesel Chinook Concourse for 14 years. It was a great unit that I put 120,000 miles on without ANY repairs. Chinook was among the oldest U.S. brand names in the RV industry and built quality RVs. Chinook RV, a division of Trail Wagons, Inc. was a family-owned and operated manufacturer of relatively short-length, high-quality Class C (Class B+) recreational vehicles. Chinooks, like Phoenix Cruisers now, were once considered “The Sports Car of Motorhomes” until the company’s demise in 2005. Ultimately they simply priced themselves out of business, by upping prices and later reducing quality.
I hope the new strategy shown by Phoenix Cruiser does not create similar results. I appreciate the former "factory purchase" policy of the PC brand and want to see the company prosper. But the web advertising and website of PC was terrible. The old and still present PC website can not be found in the first 10 pages any Google search of word choice of B, B+ or C motor homes, Campers Inn doesn't do a better job with web searches because I also never saw their site come up in the first 10 pages. I stopped at the first 10 pages in both seaches so I'm not sure if PC or Campers Inn ever locates an actual Phoenix Cruiser. IMO better internet site improvements along with key words, link baiting, using alt tags and constantly updating the site with unique data would do more to enhance PC sales than a dealer upping prices by 20%.
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I get those Camping World emails too. I find them amusing because my storage lot is located next to an rv dealership that sells new Winnebago, Thor, & Forest River motorhomes. The dealer mark-ups and profit margins are insane when you can actually buy a poorly built new 2019 class C Ford motorhome from Camping World for less than the msrp of a 2019 Sprinter cutaway chassis.
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Those are absurd prices on the new units. You don't need a dealer network that inflates prices, in the age of the internet. My bet is that most RV shoppers look for and then select the unit they want by looking online. A dealer just adds unnecessary cost. Some of the biggest success stories of current marketing has eliminated middlemen. What Phoenix Cruiser just did is add to their cost without adding to the value of their fantastic product.
I owned a diesel Chinook Concourse for 14 years. It was a great unit that I put 120,000 miles on without ANY repairs. Chinook was among the oldest U.S. brand names in the RV industry and built quality RVs. Chinook RV, a division of Trail Wagons, Inc. was a family-owned and operated manufacturer of relatively short-length, high-quality Class C (Class B+) recreational vehicles. Chinooks, like Phoenix Cruisers now, were once considered “The Sports Car of Motorhomes” until the company’s demise in 2005. Ultimately they simply priced themselves out of business, by upping prices and later reducing quality.
I hope the new strategy shown by Phoenix Cruiser does not create similar results. I appreciate the former "factory purchase" policy of the PC brand and want to see the company prosper. But the web advertising and website of PC was terrible. The old and still present PC website can not be found in the first 10 pages any Google search of word choice of B, B+ or C motor homes, Campers Inn doesn't do a better job with web searches because I also never saw their site come up in the first 10 pages. I stopped at the first 10 pages in both seaches so I'm not sure if PC or Campers Inn every locates an actual Phoenix Cruiser. IMO better internet site improvements along with key words, link baiting, using alt tags and constantly updating the site with unique data would do more to enhance PC sales than a dealer upping prices by 20%.
Those prices have to be suggested retail.
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Mike I really appreciate the info and it does sound like what I heard in Florida.
And more importantly:
GOOD LUCK with your new PC!
Hope you enjoy it for a long and trouble free time.
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Maybe what Camper's Inn needs to do is advertise like this.
MSRP: $200,000
Our Price: $150,000
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https://www.rvt.com/Phoenix-Usa-Phoenix-Cruiser-2910D-2019-Fruitland-Park-FL-ID8587302-UX198495
https://www.rvt.com/Phoenix-Cruiser-2910D-2019-Union-CT-ID8587242-UX198484
https://www.rvt.com/Phoenix-Cruiser-2350-2019-Union-CT-ID8587241-UX198484
https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2019-Phoenix-Usa-Phoenix-Cruiser-2350-5006417460
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+200k new record!
The ads on the Campers Inn site are terrible. No info or pictures. Who wants to spend that kind of dough for no show?
Ron
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I recall back in 2006 when looking for a motor home to replace our old one, the Dynamax Isata Sport was the "Cadillac" of scaled-down B+ motor homes built on the E-Series. CLICK HERE (https://www.google.com/search?q=dynamax+isata+sport&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjupKS63tDgAhUs0YMKHaGNDM0Q_AUIDigB&biw=1280&bih=580) to see them. They were very nice, standing out from the pack but with a big $130k-140k price tag. Not yet knowledgeable of a Phoenix Cruiser, we would have bought a used Isata Sport but could not afford one. Moving on, I learned of the Phoenix Cruiser in January 2007 which at the time was priced $50,000 less than an Isata Sport. I feel Dynamax dropped the Isata Sport after 2007 because it could no longer compete with Phoenix.
The Phoenix Cruiser seems to be in the "Cadillac" position today. Maybe new PC owners will finally be paying what PCs are worth. I am so glad we got one made exactly the way we wanted, back when we could afford one. I wonder who is the upcoming competitor to blow-away the "Cadillac" of today?
BTW: Dynamax Corp is located just a few blocks away from Phoenix USA. Their close proximity probably didn't help their Isata Sport sales.
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We brought our 2019 2552 home on March 7, purchased new from Campers Inn of Raleigh NC. I have since went on the PC website to "build it" with the options our coach has and found that we paid essentially the same price as the "discount" factory direct price. In fact the salesman at C.I. told us that "PC has set the prices" implying no room to negotiate.
We feel very fortunate at the timing actually. We had been shopping for months and had settled on PC either 2552, 2351D, or 2350 - though we have never seen a PC in person other than driving on the road. Earl's videos were the selling point. We were looking at hotels in the Elkhart area and deciding whether to drive or fly there. I happened to contact a fellow in
Florida about his 2016 2552 for sale and he told me about the Campers Inn arrangement. I then found the Raleigh store had 3 on site (models 2552, 2351D and 2350 no less) and we drove there on March 1 (3 hours drive) and brought the 2552 home on March 7.
We could not be happier needless to say, the PC is a cut above. We are leaving for our first weekend trip tomorrow. The staff at the Campers Inn dealership seemed genuinely excited about the new arrangement though they did not yet know how to promote the quality and features that make the PC difference. I helped them as much as i could :). Actually the salesman (who was great) felt like he had been to school - I explained it came from watching 100 videos about 100 times each!!
See you on the road!
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Gary, right? (Saw your wife--Kristy's--new post on the "Introductions" string a few minutes ago, and all the details matched.)
Glad to have you on the forum! Also glad to get a real-life experience from an actual Campers Inn sale. There's been quite a bit of speculation (and a little apprehension) here about all aspects of Phoenix's "Campers Inn initiative", so looking forward to getting actual feedback from folks that used the process. Your comments seems to dovetail pretty exactly with what Phoenix said they were going to do (pricing, etc), and it's good to hear that the experience seems to have been a positive one overall for you guys. I think I can say that the current PC owners collectively "have their fingers crossed" that the entire Campers Inn effort turns out to be the right move for Phoenix to have made.
Thanks again for the information, and Congratulations! on your new 2552!!
Mike